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Solo
2008-03-12, 01:30 AM
Core Sorcerer Guide

v. 3.5

By Solo*


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Praise for Solo’s Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems (aka "Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair"):


"Epic win, lolpwnt, etc etc solo. Beautiful piece you have there. Absolutely top notch."
-Shadow Archmagi

"Welcome to Winville! Population: 1 (Solo)
Excellent stuff!
Vanished "Illusions and Invisibility" thesis...will I ever recover?"
- Sir Giacomo

"Solo, it's awesome-sauce."
-Talic

"I laughed! I cried! I lost 15 pounds!
I cannot recommend this guide highly enough!"
- Colin152

"Brilliant, will be linked to relentlessly."
-Azukius

"So this is what pure, unadulterated win looks like. Very nice."
-Woot Spitum

"Failed Will Save... Must Bow At Awesomeness of Guide... NOOOOOOOOOOO"
-AKA_Bait

"THANK YOU for making the guide to sorcery. I cannot describe the immensity of the sheer epic levels of help contained within your guide."
-Deth Muncher

"Doing more than just following in the footsteps of The Logic Ninja, this guide delves into a relatively unexplored set of advice. With his recent piece on sorcerers, Solo leaves his personal touch on the field of optimization. At last, a guide to sorcerers worth reading!

The folks at the Wizards forums need their own copy of this for their optimization library. Last I checked, there was almost nothing in the way of sorcerer optimization to be found there, and most inquiries were directed to Logic Ninja's guide. Which, while helpful, was not as appropriate as this guide is."
-Chronicled

"To James Solomon Ozymandias, Archmage:

We at Heffelman's Department of Arcane Studies Review would like to offer you our heartfelt congratulations. Among many other points in its favor, we found we did not have an appropriate rating to give your recent sorceror's guide, a clear flaw in our critiques system! In an effort to rectify this problem, the majority of our faculty has taken levels of alienist, and even as we write this, we are currently engaged in an expedition to the furthest realms of insanity in an attempt to find a number that might express its value. And indeed we have succeeded; but alas, upon return to the Material Plane, the number imploded and vanished, taking our gateway with it.

We are currently enGagED in aTTEMptIng to REturn, and iN the MEaNTIme, would offER this as a SUBstiTute for a prOper REvieW. wE would be HONOred if yOU would cONsenT to sUPPly us with FUrther copIEs of your WORKS via PlAne Shift unTIl suCh time as WE ARE ABLE tO RETURn.

YoUrs in Healghrth,

GlOORudel BRightweeke, critic and loREmaster at HeffeLMAN's, ArcD., Foc. Conj, I.A.

P.S. IT WAS WORTH IT"
- The Snark




------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Guide:

“Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves
Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But caster, you’re in luck 'cause up your sleeves
You got a brand of magic never fails
You got some power in your corner now
Some heavy ammunition in your camp
You got some punch, pizzazz, yahoo and how
All you gotta do is wave your hand!”
- Anonymous Genie


Introduction:


I, James Solomon Ozymandias (http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=4511), Archmage and Sorcerer, have just returned from an immensely perilous undertaking, during which I was abruptly brought to face my own mortality. Thus, I have decided to pass on the summation of my experiences as a sorcerer on to the next generation of magic users so that you may profit by my wisdom.

Now, I am here to advise, not dictate, the general course of action for sorcerers, such as myself, who wish to attain ultimate arcane power. After all, while it is easier to teach a man what to think than to teach him how to think, the man who knows how to think will eventually triumph over the man who knows what to think.

I shall lay before you the general philosophies I have pursued and found true during my time on the Mortal Coil, and let you judge their worth.


Who we are:


We sorcerers are a different breed from other magic users; our powers come neither from pacts made with divine beings, nor from hours of rigorous study in musty libraries, but from within ourselves. It is ours, utterly and completely, from birth till death. It is one of the few things in this world that we can truly call our own.

When developing such powers, I have seen many young sorcerers make the choice of choosing flash over substance, such as the late Dalron Brogue, Evoker – a powerful man, but his magic had several crippling weaknesses, for he focused too much on one school of magic and consequently was without the flexibility and adaptability necessary to survive in this dangerous world.

When we sorcerers learn our spells, it is a process of self discovery: we become so familiar with the powers we develop that we can call upon them many more times a day than wizards, but at a price, for we cannot change ourselves (and thus, our known spells) as readily as they can open their tomes. Therefore, a successful sorcerer, in my opinion, should seek to learn for himself spells that will be of use in many different situations.

This way, we need not spend time lamenting over the fact that we did not prepare the correct spells for the day, but instead are assured that there will always be something for us to do. Whereas a wizard must carefully prepare his spells, guessing as to what new challenges await him every day, and at the mercy of the smallest error in judgment, a properly versatile sorcerer will be able to go into any situation presented to him with serene confidence, for he will always know a useful spell.


More than just spells:


Obviously, spells do not make the man – nor, as my wife will no doubt remind me, the woman. There is a whole world of training outside of the mere spellcasting that will be critical to a sorcerer’s success.

For example, it is imperative that a sorcerer learn how to utilize metamagic in order to improve the potency of his spells; my personal preferences led me to choose Heighten, Empower, Extend, and Silent spell, as they allowed me to make it more difficult for an enemy to resist my spells, cause more damage, have my wardings endure for longer than normal, and cast spells unobtrusively.

Of course, I made sure to learn the art of casting spells without simple material components for the sake of self sufficiency, and studied Spellcraft extensively, as well as gaining degrees in Spell Focus for the schools of Illusion and Transmutation from the Institute of Arcane Studies – mainly so I could full the pre-requisites for graduating as an Archmage and learning even more arcane secrets.

Notable among them are the abilities to cast spells as a caster of a higher level, being able to turn a touch spell into a ranged touch spell, sculpting area of effect spells to exclude your allies, spontaneously altering the energy type of a spell you are going to cast, and increased potency in the ability to counterspell.

Good times.


Interacting with the world:


Speaking of “good times”, it seems a given that we sorcerers always seem to – by the fault of our own or others – attract attention, sometimes unpleasant, often unwanted, you will likely want to invest heavily in the skill of lying. I cannot tell you how many orcs, ogre chieftains, or mercenaries I have had to face in my life, and bluffing my way out of the sticky situations I have found has proved an excellent alternative to spells, for they leave fewer enemies, dead bodies, and trail for later trackers.

Knowledge of the arcane and spellcraft are, of course, nearly mandatory subjects to master, as sorcerers, by definition, will dabble extensively in mysteries of the arcane, both to develop their own powers and to understand the secrets of others. As the old saying goes, if you know your enemy and yourself, you will be assured victory in even a hundred battles.

Even though most of us have neither the time nor strength to devote to melee combat, I would advise any sorcerer to lean, at the least, how to cast a spell while defending himself against an attacker, for you cannot always expect to have a ally guarding you while you rain magical death down upon your foes. It sucks to be attacked by something, and you should make every preparation against it, but the real world is not fair, and you will find yourself alone and under attack by some hostile force despite your best intentions.

Prepare for it well.


Managing by yourself:


While on the topic of being alone, it would be wise of you to consider how to balance self sufficiency with interdependence. It has been my principal to make sure that, without any magical gear of any sort, I would, with my bare hands and the arcane powers within me, be able to perform my magics without hindrance, as I fully anticipate not being with, or running out of, material components and focuses for spells, or having my items stolen, dispelled, or disjunctioned. It is, after all, absurd to expect that a worthy opponent will not try to separate you from your spell components, focuses, items, and, for wizards, spell books.

Thus, I would advise you to use magic items to compliment your spells known, but never to have a magic item compensate for a hole in your magic. The outsourcing of a critical component has caused more than one company and nation woe, and it would behoove you not to repeat the mistake.

(An aside: one of the most hilarious moments in my entire career was when I bluffed one of my first adventuring parties and our antagonist into thinking that I was a wizard, lugging around a huge spellbook and all, filled with runes. When he separated me from the spellbook after a long fight during which all my spells had been exhausted, he made the mistake of allowing me to rest for a night before coming in to wave the captured spellbook in my face and taunt me about it. Needless to say, the Empowered Magic Missile I delivered to his face came as a complete surprise.)

Of course, there are other schools of thought, such as the item dependence school, created by, led, and composed of, Sire Guacamole; however, you should probably review his theories independently and come to your own conclusions.


It doesn't have to be lonely at the top:


I have now written at length of the necessity of being self sufficient; but I must tell you of the need for co-operation and collaboration with your peers, for truly, no man is an island.

To compensate for our weaknesses and shortcomings, such as the inability to “mix it up with the best of them”, kick down doors, heal the wounded, and turn the undead, it would be a prudent decision to associate with those who can, thereby forming a team, whose intraparty synergy will hopefully create a force that is more than the sum of its parts.

In my most recent misadventure, I was accompanied by two great warriors and a powerful cleric, all of whom helped me accomplish tasks and overcome difficulties that I would never have been able to pass by myself. I am deeply indebted to all of them.

That being said, the ideal associates you will be working with should include:
• At least one healer who will also be able to hold his own in combat. I favor clerics
• A scout or “sneaky” type of character for scouting and reconnaissance. As they will often get into danger above their heads, I favor interns.
• A dedicated combat type - perhaps a druid or another cleric, though my cousin Saal the Barbarian, knows no magic yet breaks skulls well enough.
• Perhaps another sorcerer, or wizard, to compensate for your lack of spells known and additional ways to rain magical death down upon your enemies.

Oddly enough, the entire party of diverse individuals will often be recruited from a drinking establishment. Why this is so, I have no idea.

But I digress.


What you do:


As you can see, everyone has a role.

But what of your role? What do you contribute to the party?

As a sorcerer, your job is to “cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!”

With your ability to cast many spells, you can afford to hex, curse, or blast at the enemy over and over until he is incapacitated, crippled, or dead. This is what you bring to the party; the ability to control and dominate the enemy with magic, making it easier for your allies to win the day.

Of course, this is all theory; what works best for you should be decided by yourself.

And wouldn’t you know it, I’ve come back to the issue of your known spells again.

As I do not think this repertoire of wisdom would be complete without at least a brief rundown of the best spells available to you as a sorcerer, I shall give you my personal list of spells known and other candidates that you may want to consider depending on your personal style.

First off, you must decide which schools to select spells from. The general answer is “All of them!”, but you will want to focus more heavily on some schools than others.

Conjuration is a great general purpose school, with a bit of everything, so it is always useful to select spells from.

Enchantment is a great school for crippling your opponent with hexes and curses, while bending them to your will… pity it is stopped stone cold by Mind Blank and the humble Protection from X spells. Don’t get me started on how useless an Enchanter is against undead. It is, however, a great school for buffing – if that’s your thing, best left to bards or clerics if you ask me - and does have some good spells such as Feeblemind, Sleep, and Dominate Monster. Enchantment is tempting to some mages due to the fact that it makes having your way with others easier – in many senses of the word. These people were what Evan’s Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion was meant for.

Evocation is the “hammer” of magic schools. While flashy and impressive, all it takes is one anti-energy warding spell to render you useless. There are some good spells in it, such as Contingency, but those you can get from another school.

Illusion allows you to make up for the lack of choosing Evocation spells, though they are only quasi-real. You can still use it to create Contingency effects and the like, however. In addition, it offers such gems as Invisibility, Persistent Image, and others. Great school to have in your pocket. If you plan on becoming an Archmage with a school focus on Illusion, prepare to write a doctorial thesis on the subject. Mine was on “Illusions and Invisibility”. For some reason, however, they never found the manuscript, but I passed anyways.

Divination is one of the better schools, for the preparation is half the battle. However, some of its best spells are expensive to cast, so keep that in mind. I usually leave heavy divination to wizards.

Necromancy is considered the “dark” school, but I prefer to think of it as being “effective”. Now, I’m not saying you should burn the cities of your enemies, loot their towns, hear the lamentation of their women, pillage, rape, and rampage across the countryside while salting their fields and smashing their temples, but you don’t have to be Mr. Nice Guy either.

A note: while it’s entirely possible and even commendable to have your undead hoards rescue orphans from a burning orphanage, there really are better ways of doing it.

Transmutation is in my opinion, tied with Conjuration for most the versatile school of magic. There is always something worthwhile to transmute, such as your enemies. For a more detailed argument as to why Transmutation is superior to most other schools, feel free to consult my doctorial thesis on the matter.

Generally, I focused on a small amount of damage dealing spells, coupled with many defensive wards and offensive “buffs”. A key component of my style is the use of spells that require the target to either resist their effects (whether they be physical or mental) or be rendered useless for the rest of the situation. I believe it to be a more efficient way of dealing with problems than by simply blasting my way through, though I will concede that if you force the square peg hard enough, it will fit through the round hole.

Now I hope you can ruminate while I loquaciously illuminate the possibilities.


The spells:

As I am lazy, and since TLN did spell analysis much better than I did, I direct you to his guide for in depth discussion. This spell list has been compiled at the last minute in a hackneyed fashion to fill space.

Enjoy.


9

Dominate Monster—While some may have an issue mind controlling other sentient beings, I submit that if they are doing some thing truly wicked, a brief spell as my personal servant followed by a Helm of Opposed Alignments should solve the problem. A redeemed person is, after all, more useful to society than a dead one. That being said, this does not work on many creatures (read: undead), nor ones with the proper warding (Protection from X, Mind Blank), so perhaps it is not the best choice for this category.

Prismatic Sphere—This spell is simply fabulous.

Shades—These sort of illusion spells effectively allow you to know several lower level spells for the price of one, as well as offering you endless amounts of fun with such great spells as Leomund’s Luxurious Love Shack.

Time Stop—With a bit of a mind flip, you're there in the time slip, and nothing can ever be the same, for you're spaced out on sensation, like you're under sedation. But listen closely (not for very much longer), I've got to keep control.
Somatic components: It's just a jump to the left, and then a step to the right. With your hands on your hips you bring your knees in tight. But it's the pelvic thrust that really drives you insane; let's do the Time Warp again!

Astral Projection—Send in the clones! Pricy, but it lets you duplicate of yourself, gear included, and then travel back to the Material Plane (or Plane Shifting back). Caution: Never leave your comatose body in the possession of a Succubus, even if you did use a Helm of Opposed Alignments on her.

Meteor Swarm—Finish him!

Wail of the Banshee—Dalron singing in the shower will suffice nicely.

Weird—Mind Crush! (Not really... giving your opponent two chances to save is bad.)

Wish—Say what you wish, whatever it be, it's yours true dish, just pay up some XP.

Gate—Great spell for interplanar travel. Superb spell for running away from your mother in law.

Shapechange—You are everything, ever. Warning: Not for the lactose intolerant.

Imprisonment—You are the weakest link, goodbye!

Foresight—A powerful Spidey-sense that is guaranteed to foil any surprise attack and every surprise birthday party.

Disjunction—A magical EMP (Exterminatus Magic Pulse) that fries everything, including your potential loot. Only use if you don't plan on salvaging from the broken bodies of your enemies. Perhaps as a scroll...

8

Greater Prying Eyes—Scouts with True Seeing are always useful.


Greater Shadow Evocation—Like Shades, it allows you to make up for your limited spells known. Try using it to mimic Leomund’s Tiny Hut while traveling or Contingency if you’re paranoid.

Prismatic Wall—The great headmaster of the Arcane Institute said it best: “this wall does BAD things to people. BAD things.”

Sunburst—Well, it is one way for the sorcerer to take out undead, and then some. It does lend a certain flair to a sorcerer’s repertoire. Great for making a flashy entrance at a social gathering.

Bigby’s Clenched Fist—Smack that bitch up.

Mind Blank—It saves you from the humiliation of failing to resist a Dominate Person and becoming the personal slave to some Drow matron. Some people had to learn this lesson the hard way.

Horrid Wilting—Dalron's favorite mass removal/gardening spell.

Otto’s Irresistible Dance—Stop! Its hammer time! No save, just suck.

Polymorph Any Object—You can now polymorph things into cheese.

7

Spell Turning—It helps you avoid getting killed by a Finger of Death to the face, if your friendly neighborhood cleric has neglected to cast Death Ward on you. A common sport my freshman year in the Arcane Institute was for two aspiring Archmages to turn up their Spell Turnings, cast Magic Missile at each other, and create a resonance effect. First to get back from the Astral Plane received beer and women. Loser had to foot the bill.

Arcane Sight, Greater—It is generally regarded as a good thing to know if the person you will be casting spells on today has Spell Turning on or not. Also, useful for qualification for Archmage, as those old geezers on the Archmage’s Council will want to see ‘diversity’ amongst the schools of magic in your spell list.

Ethereal Jaunt—In another dimension, with voyeuristic intention, well secluded, I see all!

Limited Wish—For a small price, you can make up for one important spell you do not know. Priceless.

Mass Hold Person—Stop in the name of love, baby!

Insanity—This is MADNESS!!!

Bigby’s Grasping Hand—provides cover, rushes, and gropes.

Forcecage—One of the greatest joys in life is to cast Forcecage on a dual lance wielding mounted charger, rendering his entire training up to this point moot. Expensive to cast, though. You’d probably be better off casting Fly on yourself and taunting him from above.

Prismatic Spray—Taste the rainbow, bitch.

Delayed Blast Fireball—Burn everything. Burn it to the ground. There is nothing quite like seeing five of these go off at one time.

Simulacrum—Materials for cloning: 2000 gp
XP cost for cloning: 2000 XP
Having a threesome consisting of only you and your wife?
Priceless

Finger of Death—Avada Kerdava! Bonus points if you guess which finger it is.

Maze—Best way to amaze a Feebleminded enemy.

Reverse Gravity—My hair gives me the power to defy gravity.

6

Disintegrate—as often said amongst the students of the Arcane Institute, “handy for getting obstacles, objects, and people out of the way.”

Flesh to Stone—Medusafying.

Dispel Magic, Greater—useful for getting nasty effects out of the way, like when you fail to resist a Dominate Person with your name on it and are forced to wait several months for your friends to rescue you from a Drow stronghold and return you to your right mind.

Shadow Walk—The perfect way to send people to the Shadow Realm. Great way to transverse across time and space for cheap. Best used if you travel extensively and regularly, otherwise Limited Wish may be better.

Bigby’s Forceful Hand—Talk to the hand!

True Seeing—You see all. Caution: expensive material component. Best left to wizards who can prepare it on a situational basis. Greater Prying Eyes wins out over this for me.

Eyebite—Behold the Evil Eye, of Poogly Pie.

Greater Heroism—Are you a bad enough dude to be the hero?

5

Feeblemind—cast it on other magic users to humiliate them, or cast on your friendly meat shield to make him smarter. (I kid, Gragthor, I kid.)

Wall of Force—absolutely fantastic spell. I have used it to trap monsters (with the powers of geometry), protect myself inside an Antimagic Field, and more. It may very well save your life, and help you end someone else’s. Remember, when casting a Wall of Force NONE SHALL PASS!

Telekinesis—can be used to manipulate things from far away, trip, disarm, pin down, or bull rush opponents (preferably into a Prismatic Sphere), and scratch those hard to reach places on your back.

Persistent Image—Illusions are good and useful. Ever wanted to get out of dinner with your mother in law? Here you go!

Overland Flight—What’s that in the sky? Is it a bird? Is it a skyship? No, it’s a flying mage raining magical death down on you from above!

Dominate Person—Best used on enemies to make them fight each other, or on your girlfriend. And then, only if she’s into that kind of thing.

Hold Monster—Stupefy!

Cloudkill—If you ever face off against hoards of minions, by all means invite them to pull your finger.

Baleful Polymorph—turn your enemies into pets and make them perform tricks for your amusement.
Contact Other Plane: Great spell… but are you going to use it every day? Nerd Wizard work.

4

Enervation—yes, it’s channeling the blackest of energies to cripple an opponent, making it an evil act. That being said, it is also a very effective spell. Learn it and let the Student Honor Council debate the ethics of using it. Empower for greater effect only if you can suppress the urge to spout out villainous laughter as you do so.

Greater Invisibility—Being unseen in the presence of a great and powerful monster is good. Nowadays, however, most of the opponents I face have ways to see through or negate Invisibility, so I usually spend it in attempts to avoid unwelcome relatives.

Resilient Sphere—It protects and traps pretty much any one creature, even incorporeal or ethereal ones. No need to call ghost busters to handle your focused, non-terminal repeating phantasms anymore.

Black Tentacles—In my younger days, I once managed to restrain a succubus with this spell. It proved effective, though not in the manner I was expecting.


Dimension Door—To quote the headmaster, “Great for getting you out of trouble—or into it.”

Solid Fog—To quote the headmaster again, “No save, just suck.”

Scrying—A great information gathering spell, but no something you will use all the time. Wizard work. That being said, it is a very way of viewing the inner workings of the women’s shower.

Phantasmal Killer—Super special awesome attack! (Or at least it would be if your opponent didn't get two chances to save for it. marginal at worst, Rogue killer at best.)

Charm Monster—Great for gathered information, incapacitating the enemy, making friends, and bending people to your will, though a bottle of dwarven fire whisky and a few glasses has about the same effect.

Confusion—Torment!

Polymorph—Please don't.

3

Fly—Up, up, up and away!

Phantom Steed—Hail Shadowfax, king of horses, now with wings.

Major Image—One student at the Arcane Institute had a tenancy to surprise intruders to his dorm by summoning an illusory barbed wire cage around them. Since no one would actually dare to interact with the illusion to determine if it was real or not, it left them in a rather prickly predicament.

Deeper Slumber—Arcane focus: your professor’s lecture.

Heroism—My voice knows kung fu.

Hold Person—When one of the nobles at my local bar started giving gave me a hard time for getting all the ladies, I proceeded to stunned him, lift his robes over his head, and then walked away. No more was necessary.

Shrink Item—Shrinking large things and carrying them in your pocket does have uses. I remember that I was once fighting this witch whom I killed her by flying up in the air, invisible, and then dropping a shrunken house onto her, dismissing the spell while the house was en route to the ground.

Slow—Stopping things from reaching your is always a plus. It also works on undead, as it is not a mind- affecting spell. Best use, though, is at sporting competitions.

Haste—Best used on your own team at sporting competitions.

Stinking Cloud—Not only does this cripple wizards and prevent them from casting spells, but has many applications in the realm of practical jokes. As a freshman at the Institute of Arcane Studies, there was a brief period where you could not trust the food at the dining hall because some anonymous student would find a way of slipping Beans of Stinking Cloud into the day’s meals.

Explosive Runes—they make a great impromptu booby trap, way of paying a check with an unpleasant restaurant or shopkeeper, and ensuring that your letter self destructs after it is read.
Note: make sure that the recipient can survive before mailing the letter.

Dispel Magic—A lifesaver if you need to clear hallways of Stinking Clouds.

Protection from Energy—Alas, poor Dalron’s greatest foe.

Fireball—Another of Dalron’s mainstays, this is a respectable spell for troubleshooting at long distances. Solving problems from far away is generally regarded as a good thing.

Ray of Exhaustion—Jock-b-gone

Vampiric Touch—All your health is belong to me.

Wind Wall—Take pride in rendering Elfy McElf, the Elvish archer utterly obsolete.

2

Hideous Laughter—Hey, you wanna hear a joke?

Resistance to Energy—Alas, poor Dalron’s second greatest foe.

Alter Self—not only does this allow you to disguise yourself, but you can pretend to be of a different species. Gaining the armor of a Troglodyte without its stench is never a bad thing.
Among its other uses is disguising yourself as an old lady and letting your purse be snatched by thieves, while it contains a few notes worth of Explosive Runes.

Bull’s Strength, Bear’s Endurance, Cat’s Grace—My voice gives me super strength!

Darkness—Provides concealment, DR10/Magic Missile.

Blindness/Deafness—Kaiden, surprisingly enough, never took this spell, preferring to walk around showing his enemies 4chan.

Shatter—Have you ever seen a jerk who bullied you as a kid buy an obscenely expensive ring to present to his bride at their wedding, only to have it shatter mysteriously at the altar? Fun times, fun times.

Gust of Wind—It will blow you away.

Magic Mouth—No, not that kind.
Silence -

Invisibility—a great spell until Greater Invisibility is on the table, as it allows you to go to places you normally couldn’t go, such as the women’s shower.

Mirror Image—Greetings, Mr. Anderson. Today, you’ll be fighting me. Me, me, me, me, me.

Hypnotic Pattern—Bards? Who needs bards?

Minor Image—The cake is a lie!

Detect Thougths—Ah, your thoughts betray you.

See Invisibility—It helps detect peeping toms in showers, if nothing else.

Glitterdust—Just because you can see invisible things doesn’t mean others can. Also blinds whatever gets hit by it. As some of us have found out the hard way, invisibly sneaking into a shower containing sorceresses who know both spells is not a good idea.

Web—Spider web, spider web, does whatever a spider can. Spins a web, any size, catches thieves just like flies. Here comes the spider web.

Acid Arrow—A long ranged acid spell that deals damage over time and bypasses spell resistance. Handy, but I’ve never found a use for it, except in special circumstances. I will note though that you can use it to hit others from faaaaar, which means you are less likely to be poked with a pointy stick.

Scorching Ray—Dalron’s favorite spell when we were rooming together in the Junior Academy for Arcane Studies, and a powerful damage dealing spell, for the level, anyways. It is a great way to roast troll flesh, which doesn’t actually taste half bad with a little Prestidigitation thrown on for flavor.

1

Animate Rope—Kinky.

Tenser’s Floating Disk—Best used for practical jokes involving staircases. If Tenser was alive today, I’d use it on him for creating this sad excuse of a spell.

Mount—It’s a mount. You ride it to places. You can also sell it and run off with the money before the buyer realizes he’s been had. Unless you want to major in either swindling or liveries, pass.

Identify—You identify magic items for a price. If that’s your thing, go for it. If not, leave it to the nerds.

Sleep—The perfect antidote for when you can’t sleep due to being poked at with pointy sticks.

Color Spray—Blind them with magic!

Silent Image—Gives you more time to run from angry spouses.

Chill Touch—“I get to touch you and weaken you. You get to hit me with a huge hunk of metal.” Pass.

Expeditious Retreat—Run away! Run away!

True Strike—Ah yes. Learn to use the Force.

Magic Missile—I keep it around for those pesky “class five roaming vapors” whom I can never quite Disintegrate properly.

Shocking Grasp—My honorable enemy and worthy opponent, let us shake on it!


Grease—Great for tripping up jocks, or enemies charging up a staircase at you—not that the two are mutually exclusive. Also, useful for lubrication.

Shield, Mage Armor—No one will suspect the man in ordinary clothing to be abnormally hard to hit!

Charm Person—“You don’t need to see our identification.”

Enlarge Person—Oh no! Growth hormones! Best pawned off on the cleric or wizard, as it will not likely need multiple castings of per day.

Ray of Enfeeblement—Jock-b-ware

0

Touch of Fatigue—While in the Junior Academy, Dalron sparred with Saal and cast this on Saal to make him tired. Saal responded by knocking Dalron lights out with an axe. I leave the lesson to be learned to you.

Prestidigitation—It cooks, it cleans, it gets crumbs out of your Cloak of Charisma.

Detect Magic—It detects magic. Yeah.

Read Magic—It allows you to read magic. Yeah.

Detect Poison—You try surviving at the Academy cafeteria without it.

Message—Pretending that you’re someone’s conscience never gets old.

Ghost Sound—Provides a nice, ambient "Bow chicka bow wow" for your Luxurious Love Shack.

Arcane Mark—In essence, magical graffiti. Leave it on the foreheads of your enemies and flings: "A Wizard Did It".

Daze—It is a stunning spell.

Resistance—The only way to survive cafeteria food.

Light—And behold, there was light!

Mending—This spell is all you need to woo the ladies. Keep their clothing trim, yours looking sharp, and your prophylactics re-usable.


There are, of course, other great spells to know, but I think I have given you a fair idea of what to look out for, as well as the proper mindset for a competent sorcerer. Best of luck to you, Sigil Prep freshmen, class of 1337, and I hope you have learned these lessons well, for I tend to guard my secrets with EXPLOSIVE RUNES



Appendix:

A:
On Metamagic

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4050553&postcount=22

Sculpt Spell, which was not covered, allows you shape your spell into several useful shapes, as detailed on a list, for a +1 level adjustment. Totally worth it.

Smiting Spell, another +1 metamagic feat, allows you to store a spell in a weapon, releasing it when it hits an enemy.

What would happen if you gave your entire team arrows of Vampiric Touch? Do you, the caster, get all the temporary HP that results from when they hit? Ask your DM today!

B:
For more in depth spell and metamagic analysis, as well as spells and metamagic I failed to cover, read:
The The Logic Nina's "Guide to Being Batman" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500)

Truly a work for all the ages.

There is also Treantmonk's Guide to Being a God (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956548)

C:
On familiars:
As far as I can tell, familiars are much better for wizards than they are for sorcerers, unless you go outside core.

It doesn't do that much for you, but it's cheap to have and gives you a tiny bit of aid at times.

I went for a Bat for symbolic reasons and the Blindsight, but Ravens are popular for the language.

Beyond that, it's really up to your personal preference.

I stand by the age old sentiment that the best familiar is another spellslinger.

D: On the importance of planning properly for Tactical Advantage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4055208&postcount=60)

E: A compilation of Sorcerous Academies and Specialties
A reference guide to finding alternate paths to sorcerous might
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4072846&postcount=77)

One PrC from Sandstorm merits mention, the Sand Shaper. It's has some interesting and useful abilities, and only costs 2 caster levels in the long run.

Taking a single level in this class gives the Desert Insight class feature, which adds a ton of spells to your spells known, covering a variety of uses, including utility, blasting, summoning, and save-or-die spells.

Downside? 8 ranks in Knowledge nature, a cross class skill for you, you lose a caster level upon taking your first step in the class, and it requires a dead feat.

F: Worthwhile Non-Core Sorcerer Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4092076&postcount=101)


G: Great Sorcerer items, Core and non-Core (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4091997&postcount=100)

E:
How to know more spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75174)
The most effective way is to use Limited Wish to duplicate Psychic Reformation, as described in the thread.




*Other people helped, but will not be credited at all.



Thanks to everyone else who posted on the thread, including, but by no means limited to, Talic, Collin152, Frosty, Jack Smith, Kurald Galain, Shneeky the Lost, Sweetrein, and all the people who praised me.

Nohwl
2008-03-12, 01:50 AM
ok, i have a couple questions.

is a sorcerer better than a wizard? i know they have a bigger amount of spells per day, but how does the limit on the spells they know play in to how strong they are?

what schools of magic are the best, what schools should most of your spells be coming from?

any suggestions for a familiar?

Talic
2008-03-12, 01:57 AM
Best suggestion for a familiar is an animal companion. There's a class variant that gets it.

2nd. Sorcerors are different. Not better, not worse. You have to plan them well, and must be content with having 10 solutions for 100 problems. Since your spells aren't flexible, you must be.

Number one thing to look for:

1 good save or lose fort save
1 good save or lose will save
1 good save or lose ref save
1 good spell that does not allow SR
1 good spell that does not allow a save

Battlefield control is good, still, with wall of force topping that list. True seeing or something similar is a MUST.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-12, 02:04 AM
is a sorcerer better than a wizard?
No.


what schools of magic are the best, what schools should most of your spells be coming from?
Irrelevant. As a sorcerer you pick the best individual spells without regard for school.
That said, Conjuration and Transmutation are the largest and, correspondingly, have more useful spells.


any suggestions for a familiar?
Rat. +2 Fortitude saves.

Sir Giacomo
2008-03-12, 02:07 AM
Welcome to Winville! Population: 1 (Solo).

Excellent stuff! Will comment on it later in more detail.

Vanished "Illusions and Invisibility" thesis...will I ever recover?:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-12, 05:22 AM
At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.


This is an important bit to remember, I'm not sure if you mentioned it. It means your sorcerer can effectively pick from all spell lists of everyone, giving vastly more power during character generation. In game of course, you'll have to give a reason, and probably have your character start becoming fascinated by the properties of X spell a few sessions before levelup, and possibly include a trip to the library to find out about it.

EDIT: I forgot to say: Epic win, lolpwnt, etc etc solo. Beautiful piece you have there. Absolutely top notch.

Talic
2008-03-12, 05:31 AM
This is an important bit to remember, I'm not sure if you mentioned it. It means your sorcerer can effectively pick from all spell lists of everyone, giving vastly more power during character generation. In game of course, you'll have to give a reason, and probably have your character start becoming fascinated by the properties of X spell a few sessions before levelup, and possibly include a trip to the library to find out about it.

EDIT: I forgot to say: Epic win, lolpwnt, etc etc solo. Beautiful piece you have there. Absolutely top notch.

To be perfectly honest, as a DM, I take this as, if a character playing a sorceror is focused on a particular concept or area (not just a couple trips to the library, but the character theme shows study enough to qualify him as highly knowledgable in the area), I'll grant him some leeway with spells of that type.

For example, a dedicated boost sorceror learns mostly defensive and buff spells, I'm not opposed to letting him borrow a couple from the cleric list. A healthy amount of elemental? Let him look at the druid list. Character obsessed with death? Perhaps a couple spells from the death domain would help. Does he fancy himself a trickster? Go ahead, pull a few from bard.

And by the way Solo, it's awesome-sauce.

The Glyphstone
2008-03-12, 05:39 AM
This is an important bit to remember, I'm not sure if you mentioned it. It means your sorcerer can effectively pick from all spell lists of everyone, giving vastly more power during character generation. In game of course, you'll have to give a reason, and probably have your character start becoming fascinated by the properties of X spell a few sessions before levelup, and possibly include a trip to the library to find out about it.
.


Unfortunately, Wizards Can Do It Too, by researching 'custom spells' through the same mechanics. So it is a useful thing to have, but doesn't really give the sorcerer any leg up over the wizard.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-12, 05:56 AM
Sorcerers just say "Instead of magic missile, I'd rather have some of those bardic music spells."

Wizards have to spend money on experimental components and and spend vast amounts of time on research through a forumula there are rules for, as far as I know. Sorcerers just have to ask the DM nicely and see what he says.

Although yes, this is the singular greatest aspect of sorcerers is that they can do all sorts of themes by borrowing from all kinds of lists.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-12, 06:30 AM
and be able to cast certain spells without somatic components, like Dimension Door, no matter what – even while being grappled and pinned.

This doesn't work in a 3.5 Core campaign, for a couple of reasons:
1) Metamagic takes extra time (1 full round for a standard action spell) and in a grapple, spells you cast are limited to one standard action (Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling)).
2) Dimension Door doesn't have any somatic components anyway.
3) If you're Pinned, your opponent has the option of rendering you unable to speak - you need to worry about Verbal components, too.

What, no mention of the Planar Binding Line? It's a fun way for a Sorcerer to Prepare in advance for a new opponent....

Solo
2008-03-12, 07:12 AM
I'll keep that in mind for version 3.5


And Planar Binding was left out because 1) the spell list isn't comprehensive, nor does it claim to be, and 2) I never liked it.

Anyways, if you recall, you're supposed to ultimately think for yourself. The spell appraisals were just to help the process a little and entertain.


Rat. +2 Fortitude saves.
Bat. Blindsense, and you get to call yourself a "batman".

kjones
2008-03-12, 07:36 AM
This doesn't work in a 3.5 Core campaign, for a couple of reasons:
1) Metamagic takes extra time (1 full round for a standard action spell) and in a grapple, spells you cast are limited to one standard action (Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling)).
2) Dimension Door doesn't have any somatic components anyway.
3) If you're Pinned, your opponent has the option of rendering you unable to speak - you need to worry about Verbal components, too.

What, no mention of the Planar Binding Line? It's a fun way for a Sorcerer to Prepare in advance for a new opponent....

This violates the "3.5 Core" bit, but the PHB II variant in which you exchange your familiar for the ability to apply metamagic with no change in casting time is a personal favorite. Familiars always just get themselves killed, anyways...

its_all_ogre
2008-03-12, 09:06 AM
a sorcerer cannot per RAW get spells from the cleric, druid or bard list.
just to clear that up.

Talya
2008-03-12, 09:39 AM
a sorcerer cannot per RAW get spells from the cleric, druid or bard list.
just to clear that up.

A sorceror by RAW can get spells from any list. Any at all.


At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-12, 09:43 AM
Wait. This means that, theoretically, a sorcerer could get anyspell and surge of fortune, for example.

Doesn't this make the sorceror more powerful than the wizard? Especially if he can take lower level versions of sorc spells.

kamikasei
2008-03-12, 09:47 AM
Doesn't this make the sorceror more powerful than the wizard? Especially if he can take lower level versions of sorc spells.

It would certainly seem to. How is it that I have never seen this clause referenced before? Doesn't this make sorceror virtually a spontaneous arcane archivist?`

edit: Of course there are obvious practical limitations on this, just as there are on an archivist's ability to find scrolls of whatever spell he might want, and the obvious first restriction for a DM to impose would be divine spells, as why should a sorcerer be able to cast magic derived from deities by dint of his quirky personality? Still, it's hugely strong in theoretical optimization if treated as is being suggested, and there's plenty of discussion of that sort which seems to have ignored it.

Talya
2008-03-12, 09:51 AM
Wait. This means that, theoretically, a sorcerer could get anyspell and surge of fortune, for example.


Well, see, the qualification on the sorcerer learning spells outside their official spell list is they have to gain some understanding of it by study. Which would need to be coordinated with the DM.

If a sorcerer tried to learn "Anyspell" this way, the proper DM response is to hit them over the head with a large brick.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-12, 09:52 AM
Seems so. To celebrate this great discovery, I'm coining a meme.

http://http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/Hennet_1092441138.jpg

A sorcerorz is teh borkenzorz.

its_all_ogre
2008-03-12, 09:57 AM
this discussion is not a new one and was first discussed some time ago when i first joined these forum boards.
the response from wotc was that this meant sorcerers could choose spells from other sources than the phb, including homebrewed etc or even spells invented by another wizard who has never shared it with anyone.
they specifically stated that it did not include spells off other classes lists.

certainly the idea that a class that does not gain any direct benefit to their class features from a high intelligence should be able to STUDY to gain advantages to their class features makes little sense.
studying is for wizards, certainly by RAI.

Talya
2008-03-12, 09:58 AM
It's showing me only a red X. Perhaps you could post the picture somewhere else?

its_all_ogre
2008-03-12, 10:25 AM
of course they named it sorcerer and wizard list because it was really only a wizard list...?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-12, 11:21 AM
Very interesting and useful treatsie, I must say. However, if I may make some... shall we say 'counterpoints'?

I think you are vastly underestimating the value of certain metamagic majors. You see, The strength of the Sorcerer, to use a witty phrase a good Fighter friend of mine used, is Tactical rather than Strategic. When asked to expound upon this, he explained that Strategy is planning ahead, wheras Tactics is dealing with the imediate situation with what you have. I found it a remarkable counterpoint of Sorcerers and Wizards for a person who has absolutely no knowledge of magical prowess. And so, my humble opinion on the various options for metamagic majors:

Empower Spell: I find this to be a false economy the majority of the time. Two spell levels later, you can generally find something far more damaging. There are certain exceptions, such as when the damage is of a particularly rare type, or the damage affects the person's well-being in ways more than mere physical damage. Examples of this would be Magic Missile, which deals Force damage, and never miss, so the guarenteed damage may be worth the 3rd level spell normally reserved for something like a Fireball; and Enervation, which does negative levels, making it an exceptionally nasty spell indeed. Other than these rare exceptions, however, I find it not nearly as valuable as some of the others.

Enlarge Spell: While keeping foes with sharp pointy things well away from you is always a good thing, this isn't as effective at doing it as one might think. Consider a moment that it does not work on spells you have to touch to cast, and that even the newest Sorcerer on the block can cast Close range spells up to thirty feet away.

Extend Spell: I find this to be sub-par in my experience. You see, once you gain a moderate amount of magical prowess, your spells with a duration of hours/level will practically last all adventuring day, using either the humble Rope Trick or the upgraded Mordikain's Magnificent Love Shack to keep yourself safe once the spells have expired. During combat, the duration is almost pointless, as combat will almost certainly be over before you spell is. In your younger days, when you need it the most, you are least able to afford the price tag associated with it.

Heighten Spell: A deceptively useful one, and often overlooked. Why, then, would I wish to cast a low level spell in a higher level spell slot? Why, because you are no wizard who has to guess in advance which spells he needs to memorise for the day and what metamagic to apply at that time, your tactical versitility is such that even your humble low level spells can affect a surprisingly potent foe when dropped into a higher level spell slot. And remember, you are a Sorcerer, you have few high level spells known, but many times a day to cast it. This means that you will often have high-end spell slots available. So when your opponent thinks he can easily overcome the Stinking Cloud, only to be overcome by the fumes when cast as a 9th level spell. In this case, it increases the DC of the spell by 6, which is the equivelant of a +12 to Charisma (impossible through pre-epic means), or an Archmage devoted exclusively to increasing his spell power AND has an Ioun Stone which increases it still further. This makes your low-end spells still viable and useful even very late in your career.

Maximize Spell: A false economy, I fear. While many 'blasters' drool over this one, it's actually not as useful as it may appear to be. It is cast as a spell three levels higher. So let us once again use that staple, the Fireball. A Maximized Fireball deals a guarenteed 60 damage (10d6) as a 6th level spell. Let us browse the list of 6th level spells, shall we? We have Disintegrate, but that's not really a fair comparison, now is it? Ahh, here we go, Evocation has two different 'blasters' at 6th: Chain Lightning and Freezing Sphere. Now then, of the two, Freezing Sphere is the most similar, so let us use it by way of comparison. This particularly little nuke deals 15d6 (15d8 vs water elementals and the like, but those are so rare, let's just ignore that, shall we). Now then, the law of averages and bell curves indicates that this spell will average out to somewhere between 45 and 60 damage. So, not a whole lot of difference in damage output, but Freezing Sphere also lets you freeze water, making it possible to create walkways across otherwise impassible water sources, trap monsters who are currently in the water, and in general has a lot more utility use than Fireball does.
Right, let's look at Chain Lightning briefly, shall we? First off, it's damage is capped at 20d6, which means it will, on average, actually do MORE damage than the Maximised Fireball toward the end of your career, PLUS it arcs to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level, each one doing half damage. That's a lot better than the Maximized Fireball to me.

Quicken Spell: Core, unable to be used by us. Pity, and the nerds wizards never let us forget it, either. If you allow PhB II rules, possibilities open up, and it becomes an extremely valuable tool.

Silent Spell: Always handy to have, since we don't have to guess which spells we'll need to cast silently, unlike some people. Very useful for when captured and gagged, or when in a Zone of Silence, or similar effect. Everyone knows that silencing is the best method of shutting down a caster. Learn this and prove them wrong.

Still Spell: Also an extremly useful metamagic, and one I'm surprised wasn't mentioned earlier. This spell lets you cast spells without somatic components. This means, among other things, that Arcane Spell Failure does not apply to that particular spell, meaning you can be disguised as a 'tank' in full plate with a tower shield, and can still flawlessly perform arcane feats of prowess. It also means you can cast while grappled, making it invaluable in those sticky situatoins. It also means you can be clapped in irons in a dungeon and can still cast.

In fact, I'm reminded of one time when we were ambushed at night and taken captive. I was thrown in prison, chained to the wall, and gagged. My tormentor came to my prison and began taunting me about how useless I was now that I couldn't cast, waving the dummy spellbook I always keep on my person, which is always a worthwhile deception in such situations. My response of a Stilled and Silent Shatter on my bonds, followed up by a Phantasmal Killer on my strong but dumb tormentor. By the time the guards arrived after hearing his screams, I was already ready with a Prismatic Wall across the enterance.

Widen Spell: Deceptively Dangerous. As my smart Fighter friend used to say: Friendly Fire Isn't. Being hung my my toes from a rather large tree, I had ample time to consider the profound statement, and came to realize that he was a bit miffed about being caught in the effect of the Stinking Cloud I had cast at the opponent casters to keep them from casting. You see, a lot of the things you're casting works do not come equipped with a method of identifying friend from foe. Expanding the radius of the effect only compounds the problem further. And before one points out the example of the Archmage's Mastery of Shaping to negate this problem, may I point out that your associates would likely want to move around, rather than be stuck in the same small area that was exempted for their benefit? Also, depending on the duration of the spell, they may be stuck there for some time unless you are willing to spend another spell to dispel your effect. Undamaged, to be sure, but also rather upset with you for keeping them stuck in place.

Solo
2008-03-12, 11:52 AM
Worthy words. I shall add your wisdom to the appendix.



EDIT: I forgot to say: Epic win, lolpwnt, etc etc solo. Beautiful piece you have there. Absolutely top notch.


Welcome to Winville! Population: 1 (Solo).

Excellent stuff! Will comment on it later in more detail.

Vanished "Illusions and Invisibility" thesis...will I ever recover?:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

And by the way Solo, it's awesome-sauce.

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

KoDT69
2008-03-12, 12:01 PM
About the Sorcerer and spell selection from other lists:
While it does not specifically state what

These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study
is supposed to mean, it is open to DM interpretation. In a RAW debate, anything that is possible must be considered. So your DM won't let a Sorcerer pick up Divine Favor from the divine list. So what. It doesn't say per RAW that you specifically can't. That makes it a houserule.

I don't think most spells are really going to unbalance the game if given to the Sorcerer. He already has NO CLASS FEATURES, let's give him a break man :smallwink:. Let's also consider Divine Favor as the example for my argument. So in the hands of the Cleric it channels divine power from his deity and turns it into an attack and damage bonus of up to +5 for a short time. Who cares where the power comes from. CHange the name of the spell to something non-divine like a cliched "Combat Favor" or whatever. Now make it an arcane spell that grants the same mechanical bonus sans deity. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Look at spells like Bull's Strength and Dispel Magic that are on multiple spell lists. The only spells I would see being a problem would be Miracle, True Resurrection, and Resurrection. Yah, so the Sorcerer could try to avoid the XP loss from Wish by going for Miracle, but I'd veto that particular one. The Resurrections are problematic enough for Clerics as it is. I would say being brought back to life without penalty would also qualify as needing divine backing. Other than those, magic is magic, regardless of power source.

valadil
2008-03-12, 12:22 PM
Empower Spell: I find this to be a false economy the majority of the time. Two spell levels later, you can generally find something far more damaging. There are certain exceptions, such as when the damage is of a particularly rare type, or the damage affects the person's well-being in ways more than mere physical damage. Examples of this would be Magic Missile, which deals Force damage, and never miss, so the guarenteed damage may be worth the 3rd level spell normally reserved for something like a Fireball; and Enervation, which does negative levels, making it an exceptionally nasty spell indeed. Other than these rare exceptions, however, I find it not nearly as valuable as some of the others.


Disagreed! At least, with regard to sorcerers. Spell slots are extremely valuable. A sorcerer who learns fireball and delayed blast fireball is, in my opinion, worse off than a sorcerer with empower who learns fireball something entirely different, like, say, forcecage.

The way I'm playing my current sorcerer is to use lowish slots for elemental damage - scorching ray, lightning bolt, orb of acid, cold, or force. Metamagic them up to higher damage. High slots get reserved for utility or save or die effects like dim door, baleful polymorph, forcecage. With enough metamagic (thank you, incantatrix) you should be able to get by with a single spell from each element, saving your precious slots for other effects. If you go the energy admixture route you might even be able to get away with one or two elemental damage spells and mix/sculpt accordingly.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-12, 01:13 PM
ok, i have a couple questions.

is a sorcerer better than a wizard? i know they have a bigger amount of spells per day, but how does the limit on the spells they know play in to how strong they are?

what schools of magic are the best, what schools should most of your spells be coming from?

any suggestions for a familiar?

Yes and No sorcerers are better than wizards depends on several factors:

Sorcerers are generally easier to play than a wizard with a limited known spell list and can be made even easier to play by playing a Variant Battle Sorcerer.

There are many threads with suggested spells to take at the various levels for various types of sorcerers (some scored numerically by players which helps avoiding poor spell selection). Actually even easier to play a Beguiler now IMO for what the class gets in comparison to a base class sorcerer.

Sorcerers are nice in low magic campaign settings.

They involve a lot less book and recordkeeping for a Player and a DM which can really be a pain in high level games since the player only needs to spend an hour or two making the PC not an hour or so each game tweaking the wizard spell list for the adventure (For some players this can be a enjoyable experience while other find it tedious and tiring).

IMO the limited known spells hurts a sorcerer most at the lower levels of play but also makes them one of the easiest spellcasting classes to play.

I favor the generalist sorcerer which means I mix up the spell lists to avoid spell duplication and enter a PRC like Mage of the Arcane Order or Guild Wizard of Waterdeep for access to a Spell Pool and purchase a Ring of Theurgy at higher levels 11/12+ and a few Rune Staves from MIC.

For a level 1 sorcerer in a short low level game I like going Battle Sorcerer with Color Spray or Sleep taking the Precocious Apprentice feat Scorching Ray to fuel the Reserve feat Fiery Burst. The PC gets D8, average BAB, No ASF in light armor, a nice hand held weapon proficiency and has a very small spell list to worry about. Beguiler probably a better choice at this level.

I like Ravens for familiars.

mostlyharmful
2008-03-12, 02:40 PM
The spell appraisals were just to help the process a little and entertain.

And in that intention you have most definately succeeded. I applaud you sir, may you be know throughout the web as the snarky king of awesome death rain.:smallwink: Thanks for an entertaining read.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-12, 02:48 PM
Disagreed! At least, with regard to sorcerers. Spell slots are extremely valuable. A sorcerer who learns fireball and delayed blast fireball is, in my opinion, worse off than a sorcerer with empower who learns fireball something entirely different, like, say, forcecage.

The way I'm playing my current sorcerer is to use lowish slots for elemental damage - scorching ray, lightning bolt, orb of acid, cold, or force. Metamagic them up to higher damage. High slots get reserved for utility or save or die effects like dim door, baleful polymorph, forcecage. With enough metamagic (thank you, incantatrix) you should be able to get by with a single spell from each element, saving your precious slots for other effects. If you go the energy admixture route you might even be able to get away with one or two elemental damage spells and mix/sculpt accordingly.

And I would disagree with you completely.

I would get one damage spell from the lower level, my favorite is Lesser Sonic Orb, or perhaps Magic Missile. Then use Master of Elements later on to change it to whatever flavor you need.

Everything else is non-damaging effects.

Seriously, I get one or maybe two different blasters. I never get any of the Reflex Save spells, except perhaps DBF, which I use in tandem with Time Stop to make it marginally useful. Everything else is stuff like Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill, Solid Fog, Forcecage (or even better, just use Greater Shadow Evocation, there is both Forcecage *AND* Contingency, at no cost whatsoever), and the like.

Why bother with Fireball when I can get Slow, Haste, and Stinking Cloud? If there's casters against me, drop a Stinking Cloud to target their weak save, otherwise drop a Slow to screw over the opponent melee guys, and follow up with a Haste for my guys. I'll be way more effective using any of those methods than using a Fireball. Let the tanks do the damage, that's their job.

Why bother with Scorching Ray/Acid Arrow? At 2nd level, you've got a lot of 'must have' spells, including Mirror Image, Blindness/Deafness, and Rope Trick.

Even 1st level has Shield, which any decent Sorcerer should pick up, but at least you can afford both Magic Missiles and Lesser Sonic Orb here, since the only other one you really want is Feather Fall for pesky dispels on your overland flight later on.

IMO, the only excuse for Empower Spell is Enervation, because negative levels are all kinds of good fun and you don't get many other ways to apply them.

mostlyharmful
2008-03-12, 02:58 PM
IMO, the only excuse for Empower Spell is Enervation, because negative levels are all kinds of good fun and you don't get many other ways to apply them.

Even then Chain and Split Ray are both better choices, in fact they're my two favorite metas, depending on what you use them for they can make you the king of Buffing or ungodly cheestastic, best of all they can both (albeit mostly chain) on buffs, debuffs, blasts and utility spells, in combat and out of it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-12, 03:00 PM
Even then Chain and Split Ray are both better choices, in fact they're my two favorite metas, depending on what you use them for they can make you the king of Buffing or ungodly cheestastic, best of all they can both (albeit mostly chain) on buffs, debuffs, blasts and utility spells, in combat and out of it.

True, however neither of these are Core, which is what the discussion is about.

However, Empowered Twin Ray Enervation is a scary, scary thing.

Solo
2008-03-12, 03:11 PM
Keep in mind this is to help beginner sorcerer players, who will likely start playing in Core.

That's why I prefer to help them figure out how to think when building a character, as I cannot cover all supplements outside of core.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-12, 04:09 PM
It would certainly seem to. How is it that I have never seen this clause referenced before? Doesn't this make sorceror virtually a spontaneous arcane archivist?Primarily because...

1) Most people either ignore it, or decide it references spell research (notably, when the PHB discusses how Sorcerers learn spells, it NEVER references spell research)
2) There are no mechanics listed for it.


Oh, and Solo; there's another section that's decidedly iffy:
"Major Image – One student at the Arcane Institute had a tenancy to surprise intruders to his dorm by summoning an illusory barbed wire cage around them. Since no one would actually dare to interact with the illusion to determine if it was real or not, it left them in a rather prickly predicament."
In 3.5, though, the Will Disbelief is: "study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion" - which means they don't actually need to touch it. If I'm suddenly surrounded by a very spiky cage in a non-combat situation, I'm going to be studying it carefully looking for a good spot to manipulate it in an attempt to get out (in which case, I get a save, despite not knowing it's an illusion at the start). If this examination fails, I'm going to start using the rougher methods I'd be starting off with if there were combat threats - I'm either going to ignore the cage entirely (doesn't block Line of Effect) or attempt to Sunder with some weapon or another (which means my weapon goes right through the "bars", and I have obvious proof it's an illusion - no save needed).

Lokey
2008-03-12, 04:24 PM
I'm sensing things are a bit ELC 0 focussed here, perhaps even human-centric (extra feat).

So how would you go about making something like a half-ogre sorc (probably not play from ecl 2 I'd bet).

valadil
2008-03-12, 05:00 PM
And I would disagree with you completely.


If so I think you missed my point. I was advocating the same type of sorcerer, but your example was more extreme. I like a very limited amount of blasting from low level spells and using metamagic to bring up the damage if needed while saving other slots for non damage effects.

The way I'd plotted my sorc was a ray damage spell, an AoE damage spell, and an orb spell in case of SR. I could probably get away with ditching the ray and just having an area and an orb, but the character started at level 3 and wanted to do some halfway decent damage before hitting level 8. (Note that I said orb of acid, cold, or force. I meant just one of them, not all three.)

Sir Giacomo
2008-03-12, 05:14 PM
OK,

2nd wave of slightly more detailed comments:

- I am still wondering whether sorcerers truly can afford to spam spells more than the wizard or other full casters. In terms of spellpower total (i.e. no. of spells times the levels they are able to cast), they could be on par with cleric, druid and wizard since those accede the higher level spells one level earlier. A table or some such might be added to the thesis above to prove the point of sorcerers being those with most quantitiy of spells
- While the comments on the individual spells are highly entertaining, a recommendation is still missing as to what spells to choose at what level in core rules. (and what spells to exchange when). Maybe Solo could simply copy this list from his entry in a different thread (or link it). What interests me most in that respect is how a Sorcerer can avoid sudden demise at low levels.
- besides bluff, simple weapon proficiency (including the great reach weapon longspear) and a familiar is the only thing special outside their spells. Maybe a separate passage of Solo's opinion on these (and pros and cons of different familiars or even the improved familiar feat) would be great to have!
- since a Sorcerer's main ability is Charisma he could make great use out of UMD (for all bard and divine spells) and later a circlet of persuasion item (synergising nicely with bluff).
- what items should best be created by a sorcerer with item creation feats?
- what can be said about prestige classes? (apart from the archmage mentioned?)

Ah, and on another issue discussed:
Sorcerers are NOT free to learn divine spells and spells not on the sorcerer/wizard list, but only "unusual" spells. So basically this means that they can research/intuitively gain spells of their own making which are entirely up to the DM to allow into his campaign (since he controls the "study" sources).

- Giacomo

Collin152
2008-03-12, 05:16 PM
I laughed! I cried! I lost 15 pounds!
I cannot recommend this guide highly enough!

It was definatley a better read the second time.

Solo
2008-03-12, 05:19 PM
While the comments on the individual spells are highly entertaining, a recommendation is still missing as to what spells to choose at what level in core rules. (and what spells to exchange when). Maybe Solo could simply copy this list from his entry in a different thread (or link it). What interests me most in that respect is how a Sorcerer can avoid sudden demise at low levels.

TLN already did it better than I did.

I've warned against learning the highly situational spells, and most of the rest I included would be good at pretty much any level.

I was afraid that if I went TLN's route, it'd be the same thing, over again.

Note to self: add a link to TLN's guide in the appendix.



- besides bluff, simple weapon proficiency (including the great reach weapon longspear) and a familiar is the only thing special outside their spells. Maybe a separate passage of Solo's opinion on these (and pros and cons of different familiars or even the improved familiar feat) would be great to have!

As far as I can tell, familiars are much better for wizards than they are for sorcerers, unless you go outside core.

It doesn't do that much for you, but it's cheap to have and gives you a tiny bit of aid at times.

I went for a Bat for symbolic reasons and the Blindsight, but Ravens are popular for the language.

Beyond that, it's really up to your personal preference.

I stand by the age old sentiment that the best familiar is another spellslinger.




Oh, and Solo; there's another section that's decidedly iffy:
"Major Image – One student at the Arcane Institute had a tenancy to surprise intruders to his dorm by summoning an illusory barbed wire cage around them. Since no one would actually dare to interact with the illusion to determine if it was real or not, it left them in a rather prickly predicament."
In 3.5, though, the Will Disbelief is: "study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion" - which means they don't actually need to touch it. If I'm suddenly surrounded by a very spiky cage in a non-combat situation, I'm going to be studying it carefully looking for a good spot to manipulate it in an attempt to get out (in which case, I get a save, despite not knowing it's an illusion at the start). If this examination fails, I'm going to start using the rougher methods I'd be starting off with if there were combat threats - I'm either going to ignore the cage entirely (doesn't block Line of Effect) or attempt to Sunder with some weapon or another (which means my weapon goes right through the "bars", and I have obvious proof it's an illusion - no save needed).

"If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts,
Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show,
I should really just relax"


That being said, it would best be used on people who had low will saves and were unarmed. Obviously, you wouldn't use such a spell against someone who would disbelieve easily. That would be like taking a knife to a gunfight.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-12, 05:38 PM
Ah, and on another issue discussed:
Sorcerers are NOT free to learn divine spells and spells not on the sorcerer/wizard list, but only "unusual" spells. So basically this means that they can research/intuitively gain spells of their own making which are entirely up to the DM to allow into his campaign (since he controls the "study" sources).

- Giacomo
Sort of. If you go through the Core spellcasters, they all have essentially the same sentence for the first sentence under their spellcasting section; it swaps out a few words (Arcane/Divine, class name, spell list), and there's some conditionals for the two classes that don't have spell casting from level 1), but it's essentially the same sentence:

Bard: "A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list."
Cleric: "A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. "
Druid: "A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. "
Wizard: "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list. "
Paladin: "Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list"
Ranger: "Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list."

The Sorcerer, though, has extra conditionals: "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. " (Emphasis added).

Of the core base casters, the Sorcerer is the only one who, right on the first sentence of the spellcasting segment, uses a conditional modifier that implies exceptions. A little latter, it even adds (none of the other Core casters get an analog to the second half of this sentence): "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study."

If you pick up the PHB, go to the magic overview, and start pulling out where it specifies how characters learn spells, there's also an interesting exception. For the Wizard, it's level up, copying from scrolls/spellbooks, or independent research (pointing to the DMG). For Divine spells, it's level up or independent research (pointing to the DMG). For Sorcerers and Bards, though, independent research isn't listed - new spells are learned on level up only, and it adds the sentence "With the DM's permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54)." It then follows it up with an example, that lists "or he might have learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook." (both quotes from the 3.5 PHB, page 179).

For everyone except the Sorcerer, their Spells section has them casting from the class list. With the Sorcerer, it's "primarily" from the class list. For learning new spells, for the Wizard and all Divine classes, it's the automatic spells from level up, spell research (pointing to the DMG), or (in the case of the Wizard) copied spells. For the Sorcerer and Bard, spell research is not listed, but it is noted that they can get other spells.

That's not what most people expect to see, though, so when it's seen, it's usually assumed that the "Primarily" in the Sorcerer spell section refers to spell research (despite the fact that no other Core base class uses that word, but they can all do spell research, and spell research isn't listed as an option under the methods for gaining spells for the Sorcerer in the Magic section). There's no listed mechanics for it, but the Core Sorcerer isn't restricted to the Sor/Wiz list, and does not need to use spell research to get outside of it.

Solo
2008-03-12, 05:46 PM
I suspect the reason why the sorcerer's means of learning spells was ambiguous is because of either an editing error, where they were going one way, then decided against it, or poor implementation an the idea.

As written, I think it says that sorcerers can learn from other spell lists, if the DM allows them to.

Then again, anything can happen if the DM allows it to....

Sir Giacomo
2008-03-12, 05:49 PM
Ah, Solo is fast...

Here a 3rd wave - on the individual spells.

First of all, I guess I laughed hardest about the shapechange description. Because it was so short and down to the point :smallsmile: (of course, everyone knows I do not consider it overpowered for its level since you do not get XP free wishes through it and even if you could, the DM can still block the forms that offer it by referring to the "familiar" nerf in the spell description).

My favourite of your spell use suggestion is the alterself/old woman/explosive runes purse combo. Hilarious!

Now, on to three tricks of your descriptions which I think do not work:
Shrink Item: you cannot dismiss the shrunk heavyweight while it falls since falling happens immediately while the disimissing part is a standard action. You might time it to let the item fall the moment it grows back to size on its own (spell ends normally), but that could be tricky. Additionally, there are no core rules for how falling items hit someone, only for damage from items falling on them IF they hit. Given you can use evasion even in a pinned grapple vs zillion feet radius spells, you'll probably need a houserule to cover this. And finally, I guess in the FAQ somewhere it was ruled that a shrunk item returning to normal size before impacting on an opponent will not hit it.
Forcecage: I may be mistaken, but a mounted charging knight with his lance may be too large to catch in a force cage without holes, and in a bigger one with holes may still use spells/magic effects/missile attacks of his own.
Astral Projection: the spell specifies that you leave your body behind on the material plane, suggesting you cannot use it from another plane. Plus, leaving it on another plane where you do not have a "home" base could be highly dangerous. Doing it from MMM or bag of holding does not work either since those are not "planes", but extra-dimensional spaces.

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-03-12, 05:51 PM
Ah, Solo is fast...


Yeah, that's what she said.


Shrink Item: you cannot dismiss the shrunk heavyweight while it falls since falling happens immediately while the disimissing part is a standard action. You might time it to let the item fall the moment it grows back to size on its own (spell ends normally), but that could be tricky. Additionally, there are no core rules for how falling items hit someone, only for damage from items falling on them IF they hit. Given you can use evasion even in a pinned grapple vs zillion feet radius spells, you'll probably need a houserule to cover this. And finally, I guess in the FAQ somewhere it was ruled that a shrunk item returning to normal size before impacting on an opponent will not hit it.

Well, I could calculate the rate at which something falls by use of physics in order to determine whether I'd have time to do it or not :smallbiggrin:

Toss on a True Strike and factor in a witch's lack of Evasion, or good reflex saves means that, with a small common sense house rule, you're not in Kansas anymore.

The FAQ, as you probably know by now, is good advice, but it RAW.


Forcecage: I may be mistaken, but a mounted charging knight with his lance may be too large to catch in a force cage without holes, and in a bigger one with holes may still use spells/magic effects/missile attacks of his own.
The windowless Force Cage is 10 ft cube.
If this isn't large enough for your knight, the barred version is a 20ft cage.
Seeing as how a knight wouldn't generally have magic, I don't consider that to be an issue. If it is, well, his magic isn't going to be nearly as powerful as that of the sorcerer who just cast an 8th level spell on his arse.

Missiles may be a concern, but if you're at a high enough level to be casting Forcecage, you're at a high enough level to have protection against ranged attacks.


Astral Projection: the spell specifies that you leave your body behind on the material plane, suggesting you cannot use it from another plane. Plus, leaving it on another plane where you do not have a "home" base could be highly dangerous. Doing it from MMM or bag of holding does not work either since those are not "planes", but extra-dimensional spaces.

The problem is, it's not definitive, and there are spells that take you from plane to plane. How those spells interact with Astral Projection is unknown, so we're in a bit of a gray area that requires DM interpretation.

All I have said is that it may possibly be used in a broken way.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-12, 05:54 PM
"If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts,
Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show,
I should really just relax"


That being said, it would best be used on people who had low will saves and were unarmed. Obviously, you wouldn't use such a spell against someone who would disbelieve easily. That would be like taking a knife to a gunfight.
Well, yes, but you're suggesting that you can use an illusion to trap someone with no save, when it doesn't work that way.

Actually, though, with the specific example of barbed wire, I wouldn't be examining it too closely - I'd be grabbing it, barehanded, between barbs, like I've always done - but most people didn't grow up around barbed wire, so....

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-12, 05:59 PM
That's not what most people expect to see, though, so when it's seen, it's usually assumed that the "Primarily" in the Sorcerer spell section refers to spell research (despite the fact that no other Core base class uses that word, but they can all do spell research, and spell research isn't listed as an option under the methods for gaining spells for the Sorcerer in the Magic section). There's no listed mechanics for it, but the Core Sorcerer isn't restricted to the Sor/Wiz list, and does not need to use spell research to get outside of it.

Great post as always Jack but I really like the closing paragraph and allowing a sorcerer to learn a meta spell at the level it was scribed (although that really shouldn't be necessary just a little tutoring from the Master should suffice) which usually ends up being the party wizard. Should hear the screams when the sorcerer wants to learn an arcane spell like Cure Light or Charm Monster from a Bard or a High Arcana Fireball changed to Sonic by an Archmage.

Solo
2008-03-12, 06:01 PM
Well, yes, but you're suggesting that you can use an illusion to trap someone with no save, when it doesn't work that way.


I never said permanently. Just long enough to inconvenience them and/or toy with them*, while buying the caster a bit more time.


*Ozymandias is under no obligation to be a nice person. In fact, as you may have noticed, he's kind of a jerk to people.

Talic
2008-03-12, 06:02 PM
Forcecage: I may be mistaken, but a mounted charging knight with his lance may be too large to catch in a force cage without holes, and in a bigger one with holes may still use spells/magic effects/missile attacks of his own.

You are not mistaken. However, would you rather deal with a character built and optimized for charging when he's charging you? Or when he's firing a bow that he doesn't have feats for? Or using magic items with horrible save DC's compared to casters? It's not that he's completely neutralized. He has been rendered not immediately deadly.


Astral Projection: the spell specifies that you leave your body behind on the material plane, suggesting you cannot use it from another plane. Plus, leaving it on another plane where you do not have a "home" base could be highly dangerous. Doing it from MMM or bag of holding does not work either since those are not "planes", but extra-dimensional spaces.

Correct again. Tell me, as an accomplished sorceror, what stops you, in your astral form, from plane shifting back to the material plane?

Solo
2008-03-12, 06:04 PM
For the record, the charging comment was a dig at that duel lance wielding monstrosity ("Die, die my darling")

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-12, 06:52 PM
Okay, that punk quote just wins.

Now, on the subject at hand, seeing how we now have a comprehensive core spell list (Luckily, I managed to get a contribution in, in the form of pointing out that you can use Limited wish to shadow walk whenever you feel like you need to change the plane), I'm willing to volunteer to help with the expanded journals of the man known as the Lone black mage, if you want to do that. If, indeed, you do want to take the next step, I suggest starting with complete mage/arcane/PHBII, which are usually among the first supplements obtianed after the core books.

Sir Giacomo
2008-03-12, 07:24 PM
Tell me, as an accomplished sorceror, what stops you, in your astral form, from plane shifting back to the material plane?

Now, that's a cunning idea! And it should work.
Several things to think of, though, as an accomplished sorcerer:
- your original body remains on the material plane and can be found and destroyed more easily than if the mind of the sorcerer really inhabited it.
- forbiddance area blocks the spell completely (as do AMF areas). This should not ALWAYS come up, but since it is a much lower-level spell and can foil the 9th level astral projection quite easily (available only for the 18th level sorcerer), there is no reason to assume that your opponents will not have it up for their lairs.
- a simple greater dispel magic can end the whole astral projection show. Most CR 18+ opponents have this.
- having said that, astral projection is quite expensive to cast.

Otherwise the astral projection/plane shift combo is good, and can even be applied to the whole group easily, providing a good troubleshooting attempt at a difficult challenge.

- Giacomo

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-12, 07:47 PM
DM: Critical hit. The wizard dies.
Player: Sweet!
DM: His body vanishes in a puff of smoke.
Player: Damn!
*one day later*
DM: Spot checks. You're being ambushed by yesterday's party.
Players: WTF!? The wizard I can understand, but a fighter lich!?
DM: Aah astral projection.. the poor man's lichery.

Talic
2008-03-12, 08:00 PM
Now, that's a cunning idea! And it should work.
Several things to think of, though, as an accomplished sorcerer:
- your original body remains on the material plane and can be found and destroyed more easily than if the mind of the sorcerer really inhabited it.
Depending on a variety of things, including the level of contingencies and the like. Again, what stops you, as an accomplished sorceror, from returning to your own body, and putting it in a MMM?


- forbiddance area blocks the spell completely (as do AMF areas). This should not ALWAYS come up, but since it is a much lower-level spell and can foil the 9th level astral projection quite easily (available only for the 18th level sorcerer), there is no reason to assume that your opponents will not have it up for their lairs.
Who said anything about attacking opponents in their lairs? Trips to market are so much more effective.


- a simple greater dispel magic can end the whole astral projection show. Most CR 18+ opponents have this.
And if you're a properly optimized caster, you'll have a ring of counterspelling with a greater dispel in it. Further, even if he does manage to end it, you've likely gotten off some form of spell, and expended your enemy's resources. You can come back again.


- having said that, astral projection is quite expensive to cast.

Otherwise the astral projection/plane shift combo is good, and can even be applied to the whole group easily, providing a good troubleshooting attempt at a difficult challenge.

You also need to know it's an actual projection, and not a person. If you go with area dispels, it'll start with the strongest Spell first, and stop when it dispels something. Mind Blank? Yup. Keep in mind, this is a combo that allows you to use your equipment and still have it. The benefits generally outweigh the costs.

Bear in mind, this is one of many combos, and is not intended for regular use. More of a "special occasion" trick. As such, I'd generally save it for wizards over sorcerors, unless it's in scroll form.
'
Oh, and further, most CR 18+ critters don't have Greater Dispel Magic. Just sayin.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-12, 08:10 PM
DM: Critical hit. The wizard dies.
Player: Sweet!
DM: His body vanishes in a puff of smoke.
Player: Damn!
*one day later*
DM: Spot checks. You're being ambushed by yesterday's party.
Players: WTF!? The wizard I can understand, but a fighter lich!?
DM: Aah astral projection.. the poor man's lichery.

Well... the Cheap man's, anyway. Burning 1,000+ gp/pop isn't exactly something you can do when you're "poor". Sure beats the 25k for a True Res, though.

Using Astral Projection from a "safe place" though has some issues:
While you can theoretically recycle single-use items, you have issues re-equipping. If you can use Teleport/Plane Shift to get to the place where you store your real bodies, then so can someone who's hunting you. If you can't, then you're basically stuck with whatever you're using there and whatever you can Wish up.

The_Snark
2008-03-12, 08:44 PM
You also need to know it's an actual projection, and not a person. If you go with area dispels, it'll start with the strongest Spell first, and stop when it dispels something. Mind Blank? Yup. Keep in mind, this is a combo that allows you to use your equipment and still have it. The benefits generally outweigh the costs.

Bear in mind, this is one of many combos, and is not intended for regular use. More of a "special occasion" trick. As such, I'd generally save it for wizards over sorcerors, unless it's in scroll form.
'
Oh, and further, most CR 18+ critters don't have Greater Dispel Magic. Just sayin.

Er, Astral Projection is a 9th-level spell, as opposed to the 8th-level Mind Blank. If you also have Foresight up, it's a 50-50 chance which one gets dispelled.

And most CR 18+ critters don't have dispels?

-Solar: check. Spell-like ability, which can't be countered.
-Balor: check, and yeah, it's a spell-like ability.
-Pit fiend: also check.
-Dragons: Actually, you luck out here; dragons might have Dispel Magic as a spell, but their caster level is going to be quite a bit lower than yours.
-Nightcrawler: check.
-Tarrasque: Nope.
-Titan: check.
-NPCs: Most NPCs of that challenge rating have access to magic, either through magic items, being a spellcaster, or having spellcasting allies.

There are not very many creatures of CR 18+ that lack for any dispelling ability.

Azukius
2008-03-12, 10:54 PM
Brilliant, will be linked to relentlessly.

Solo
2008-03-13, 12:24 AM
Okay, that punk quote just wins.

Now, on the subject at hand, seeing how we now have a comprehensive core spell list (Luckily, I managed to get a contribution in, in the form of pointing out that you can use Limited wish to shadow walk whenever you feel like you need to change the plane), I'm willing to volunteer to help with the expanded journals of the man known as the Lone black mage, if you want to do that. If, indeed, you do want to take the next step, I suggest starting with complete mage/arcane/PHBII, which are usually among the first supplements obtianed after the core books.

Hmm.... an expanded version would be useful.

I'm not too familiar with the Complete Mage and Arcane, aside from the fact that there are several good metamagic feats there, a few good spells, Fatespinner is an awesome Sorcerer PrC, and the PHB's metamagic specialist alternate class feature is golden.

This information will be relentlessly added to the appendix.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-13, 12:30 AM
The PHBII it is, then? Good thing. The question now is, when do we start?

Chronicled
2008-03-13, 01:30 AM
Doing more than just following in the footsteps of The Logic Ninja, this guide delves into a relatively unexplored set of advice. With his recent piece on sorcerers, Solo leaves his personal touch on the field of optimization. At last, a guide to sorcerers worth reading!

The folks at the Wizards forums need their own copy of this for their optimization library. Last I checked, there was almost nothing in the way of sorcerer optimization to be found there, and most inquiries were directed to Logic Ninja's guide. Which, while helpful, was not as appropriate as this guide is.

Solo
2008-03-13, 01:40 AM
The PHBII it is, then? Good thing. The question now is, when do we start?

I already have. Check the latest appendix.

Feel free to Pm me your material and I'll put it in.




The folks at the Wizards forums need their own copy of this for their optimization library. Last I checked, there was almost nothing in the way of sorcerer optimization to be found there, and most inquiries were directed to Logic Ninja's guide.

Anyone with an account on the CharOp forums has permission to post this there, as long as they inform me beforehand.

The_Snark
2008-03-13, 02:23 AM
To James Solomon Ozymandias, Archmage:

We at Heffelman's Department of Arcane Studies Review would like to offer you our heartfelt congratulations. Among many other points in its favor, we found we did not have an appropriate rating to give your recent sorceror's guide, a clear flaw in our critiques system! In an effort to rectify this problem, the majority of our faculty has taken levels of alienist, and even as we write this, we are currently engaged in an expedition to the furthest realms of insanity in an attempt to find a number that might express its value. And indeed we have succeeded; but alas, upon return to the Material Plane, the number imploded and vanished, taking our gateway with it.

We are currently enGagED in aTTEMptIng to REturn, and iN the MEaNTIme, would offER this as a SUBstiTute for a prOper REvieW. wE would be HONOred if yOU would cONsenT to sUPPly us with FUrther copIEs of your WORKS via PlAne Shift unTIl suCh time as WE ARE ABLE tO RETURn.

YoUrs in Healghrth,

GlOORudel BRightweeke, critic and loREmaster at HeffeLMAN's, ArcD., Foc. Conj, I.A.

P.S. IT WAS WORTH IT

Solo
2008-03-13, 02:32 AM
Should I be worried that my list of praise is nearly as long as the guide itself now?


ps. I've been collecting everyone's praise at the beginning of the Guide, as you might have noticed by now. Check it out.:smalltongue:

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-13, 01:16 PM
On the Importance of planning properly for Tactical Advantage
A useful reference for Sorcerers on the choosing of known spells
By: Pip Tallowberry, Sorcerer, Abjurant Champion, and Archmage

Good day ta ye, an' well met. In this particular section, we will be discussing a significant portion of a Sorcerer's power, properly choosing a spell list which will meet your needs.

Many sorcerers have difficulties in choosing a properly balanced spell list, which often results in gaping holes in their defenses, or blind spots in their offensive repitoire. The sad fact is that no sorcerer ever knows enough spells to satisfy him or her. However, with proper care and planning, one can find a suitably flexable spell list which can accomidate nearly any situation.

Let us go over the criteria for properly choosing spells:

* Each spell must be able to be applied in different situations
* Each spell must be something you can reasonabally expect to cast on a near daily basis
* Each spell must be not only powerful when you learn it, but must also continue to be useful well into your career.

As a Sorcerer, you actually posess more magical might than even a Wizard, however you lack the flexibility of a Wizard's grimoire to switch out spells on a daily basis. This means your spell list must be able to be applied to literally every situation you find yourself in.

Due to the limited number of spells you can learn, you must choose those spells you can expect to cast multiple times, building on your strengths as a Sorcerer to cast more times a day than a wizard of equal learning. As such, you are able to toss a spell when a wizard might think twice, but you must make sure that it is a spell you want to have tossed in that situation.

Also, it is difficult to switch out spells, so each spell must be good not only when you find it, but must remain useful for the long haul, as only a limited number of times can you switch out your spells known list.

Also, may I respectfully submit that doing damage is less effective than inflicting status effects? Let's face it, a Fighter with a big sword and the skill to use it is going to be doing more damage than most of our 'nukes' anyways. Let him have his share of the limelight, and cripple opponents so he can mow them down easily.

With this in mind, let us look at the spell list with these criteria in mind:

1st level spells
Now then, your advantage early in your career is that you can cast your spells multiple times, but you only get two that you know. With this in mind, you need at least one defensive spell, and one offensive spell.

For defensive spells, Magic Armor and Shield are the two most prominent. Mage Armor has a duration of hours/level wheras Shield only has a duration of rounds/level. This can be a problem early on, as the Shield only lasts a short time, perhaps not enough time to finish a battle, wheras Mage Armor will at least last the fight. Later on, you will find you can cast a Mage Armor early in the day, and have it last all day long, not needing to cast it in combat, making it very convenient. However, Shield is one of the very few methods to foil a Magic Missile spell, which can kill a fragile sorcerer in one hit at lower levels, or severely wound even at higher levels, and never misses. I would suggest choosing one of these two spells, but probably not both.

For Offensive punch, you have a wide number of options, depending on how you feel like doing things.

For straight blasting, the old reliable Magic Missile is always a decent choice. It always hits, it always does damage, it always affects the target. It might not be one to pick up imediately, due to it's low damage output compared to a crossbow, but it is a staple for a reason. Certainly pick this up soon.

Burning Hands is your first chance to do damage to multiple opponents, but it's not as good as it may seem. You see, you are typically not going to be on the front line. That means your friends are likely to be in the area along with your foes. That's a very bad thing.

Shocking Grasp is somewhat better, but requires you to touch your opponent. Particularly early in your career, the very last thing you want to do is get within melee range with something that has a weapon. It is, however, fun at parties.

Chill Touch, the necromancer's first step, has the same problem as Shocking Grasp. The last thing you want to do is get close enough to touch someone hostile, because they will be swinging something big and dangerous at you.

If you perfer something other than damage to disable your opponents, you've got some good options

Sleep. At the very beginning of your career, absolutely one of the most powerful spells in your potential repitoire. Later in your career, absolutely worthless. The early power of this spell is such that you may well consider taking it to start with, using an opportunity later in your career to switch it out with something more useful.

Grease. Very useful throughout your entire career. Many things are not particularly agile, and this is one of the spells which ignores spell resistance. I've used the humble Grease spell to disable even a mighty Balor before. Do not underestimate it's power. It is also extremely versitile, useful in a wide number of situations.

Color Spray. Not as powerful as Sleep, nor as easy to aim, but useful for far longer in your career.

Ray of Enfeeblement. Starts off fairly good, but it's power starts to wane, as it only applies a penalty, not actual stat damage. Still, even later in your career, handy to pair with Ray of Exhaustion to cripple the combat potential of a particularly strong foe.

Once you are able to widen your knowledge of the first level of spells, there are some very handy utility spells you may want to pick up as well

True Strike. When that ray absolutely, positively has to hit it's target. It practically guarentees a hit. Very handy.

Feather Fall. Because the best way of avoiding attacks is to be above them out of reach. And because opponent casters sometimes know Dispel Magic. Remember, this can be cast on others, like the Rogue who just triggered the pit trap.

Comprehend Languages. Because it's always nice to know if they're discussing letting you go or how you would taste in the stew.

Enlarge Person. Surprisingly useful. Cast on your 'meat shield', and watch him stomp the bad guys flat. It also makes him draw fire, leaving you unmolested to continue casting.

Alarm. Because being asked to sit second watch sucks. In general, however, not really worth it to learn. Rope Trick is much better, and is just next level.

Summon Monster I. Extremely useful. Everything from trap-tripping at a safe distance to creating flanking opportunities for your rogue.

2nd level spells
At this level are a wide number of options, depending on what you want to do.

Defensive Spells you may want:

If you are being plagued by a certain flavor of elemental damage, Resist Energy is very handy. Otherwise, not worth blowing a spell known on.

Protection from Arrow. If you don't let them close, they're going to try shooting at you. Still, only situationally useful if you don't run across many archers.

Mirror Image. Get this first. This spell is your most useful defensive spell in your entire career. Let's look at numbers, shall we? Displacement, which you don't get until next spell level, gives you at 50% chance of not being hit. This spell summons 1d4+1/3 levels images that they might hit. This means, if you are unlucky, you have two other images, so you only have a 33% chance of being hit. If you roll well, the odds of you being hit after being targeted go down to 12.5%, making it in every way superior.

Invisibility. Extrodinarily useful for many different situations. The party rogue will also beg you for it.

And now for some offensive punch

The two staple ray damage spells are here at this level: Melf's Acid Arrow and Scorching Ray. The Acid Arrow only does 2d6, although persisting damage for a round or two. The Scorching Ray, on the other hand, does 4d6, and later on can have up to three rays for a total of 12d6 if all three hit. Acid Arrow does acid damage, which is rare to encounter resistance against AND ignores spell resistance. Scorching Ray does all of it's damage up front, and generally has more damage output, but is subject to spell resistance and fire is the most often protected against flavor to throw. If you insist, choose one OR the other, you don't have enough spells known to grab both.

Glitterdust is both offensive and utility. Not only does it blind foes, but it also reveals invisible things. Extremely handy

Web. A very valuable 'crowd control' spell which also does not allow spell resistance.

Hideous Laughter. It's always dangerous to get too close, but if they fail their save, they're not going to be hurting you anyways. This is good for shutting down pesky rogues with high reflex saves or big dumb fighter types.

Touch of Idiocy. Your first actual stat damage spell, and one specifically targeting other casters. Too bad you have to touch them for it to affect them, but dropping their primary casting stat 1d6 is always a worthwhile thing.

Shatter. Ahh, the many wonderous and splendor'd things one may do with this spell. Even does damage to crystalline beings and golems, and one of the very few spells which does.

Blindness/Deafness. It is very difficult to hit what you cannot see. The Fort save makes it ideal for hitting opponent casters or pesky rogues with. Not so much for the charging barbarians, though.

Scare. Often overlooked. While not very valuable later on, for the same reason Sleep is nearly worthless later on, Fear effects are crippling for opponents, and no friendly fire.

And there is some very useful Utility spells you may be interested in picking up

Rope Trick. This is one of my favorite early spells, getting this after I get Mirror Image. While I don't contribute much offensive punch, I guarentee we won't be jumped in our sleep, allowing us to sleep soundly. Only problem is you can't bring an animal companion or beast of burden up the rope easily.

See Invisible. So you know if you need to Glitterdust something

Alter Self. While I've never used it, by virtue of my allergy to cheese, it's easily the most overpowered spell of this level. +8 to natural armor, and all.

{animal}'s {stat}. In general, not useful for you to learn, however the Con bonus is always a useful thing for everyone. More hit points is good. Note: The +Cha spell does *NOT* increase the DC of your spells, don't bother with it

Levitate. Your first opportunity to rise above your foes. Not too useful, though. Wait until next level.

Knock. Extremely situational, and isn't that why you brought a Rogue along with the party? Wand it if you feel so inclined, but never learn it.

Third Level
Ahh, many staples are to be found here, you start to really hit your stride with some potent choices. Choosing the right ones out of this level is always difficult, because there are so many good choices. Whatever you do, make sure that you keep all your bases covered.

Defensive Capability

Protection from Energy. It isn't the best choice, unless you're really seeing a lot of energy damage.

Magic Circle of Protection from Alignment. Let the Cleric or the Wizard pick this up, you've got too many other choices in front of you.

Nondetection. Every time you cast it, it's 50 gold. It adds up. If you cast it enough for it to be worth it to know, you're going to have to insist on compensation for all the money going down the drain.

Wind Wall. Protection from Arrows' bigger brother. Complete immunity to projectiles. Handy when paired with flying. Also difficult to get the combo off and still contribute meaningfully to the party.

Displacement. We already covered this, Mirror Image is superior.

Invisibility Sphere. Good for cloaking the party, assuming everyone gets real friendly.

Gaseous Form. Handy, but also really cramps your casting ability. Probably not worth it.

Offensive Punch. Got a lot of options here, and some good old classics

Fireball and Lightning bolt are both here. Pick one or the other up, not both. You have too many other things to get this level to remain balanced, getting both will cripple you. However, these are staples because they are effective against crowds.

Explosive Runes. Almost utility, but it's probably Abjuration's only spell that actually does damage, so I'll go ahead and list it as offensive. Best of all, anyone reading it doesn't get a save, so it'll even bag rogues. It's a lot of fun, but hard to fit into a sorcerer's limited number of spells known.

Sleet Storm. It ignores SR, which makes it handy, and it forces balance checks, making it Grease's bigger brother, and it blocks line of sight, keeping you from being hit by obnoixous attacks.

Stinking Cloud. Oh my, the fun I've had with this one. It requires a Fort save. Against barbarians, not the best choice of weapon. Against rogues and casters, however, priceless. A distinct lack of allowing SR means it remains useful even late into your career. One of the better battlefield control spells, and one I suggest you find a way of duplicating.

Hold Person. Nah, let the Cleric do this, he gets it a level earlier anyways.

Deep Slumber. While Sleep attacks are vicious, the limit on HD is crippling at this point in your career. Sadly, probably not worth it.

Ray of Exhaustion. How to stop a charging barbarian, other than by taking his credit card. Even if he makes his save, he's still fatigued. Either way, he's taking penalties to Strength and Dex. As nice as that is, there's probably better things to learn. But if you want to be a ray specialist, this is one to pick up.

Haste. It's a buff, but a very nasty one. Your entire party gets a lot of benefits that they will all enjoy. This will almost always out-damage any straight damage spells at this level by virtue of the additional damage the rest of the party is cranking out thanks to the extra attacks

Slow. A crippling spell to cast on any big dumb thing charging at you. They get to choose between either a move action OR a standard action. That means they can't take a full attack, which helps your party's health and well being. Highly useful, and *NOT* mind-affecting.

Magic Weapon, Greater. It's use ramps up as you go up in level. Casting this on a daily basis on your tank's primary weapon means he gets to spend more money on other things. It will also typically out-damage any nuke you would cast, due to the extra damage on every hit he lands.

Several utility options here as well:

Phantom Steed. Hours/level duration. By 14th level, it's effectively Overland Flight, as a 3rd level spell. Better than Fly later on, but Fly gets you airborne earlier. Take your pick.

Fly. You can't hit what you can't reach. Much more useful than Levitate. Upgrade to Overland Flight. However, see Phantom Steed

Dispel Magic. Get this. If nothing else, it can be used to counterspell. It can also be used to remove debuffs on your allies, or buffs on enemies. Upgrade to Greater Dispel Magic when you get it.

Arcane Sight. Always handy to know if there's something magical in the area, or if the opponents are buffed.

Tongues. Like Comprehend Languages, only better.

Tiny Hut. Rope Trick is better.

4th level spells
Some very tasty choices here. Be careful you don't get seduced into unbalancing yourself.

Defensive Spells

Stoneskin. Very expensive to cast repeatedly. Not worth it for personal use (see also: Mirror Image). If your party asks you to learn it, ask for compensation. 250 a pop adds up quick.

Invisibility, Greater. The Rogue will bow at your feet is you drop it on him at the beginning of a fight. Ironically, not very useful for personal use, due to Mirror Image.

Remove Curse. Let the Cleric get this one.

Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser. Immunity to 1st through 3rd level spells. Not too shabby. Unfortunately, unless you're planning on a steady stream of mage duels with lower level casters, probably not going to be cast enough to be worth learning.

Offensive Punch. Got some tasty choices here.

Black Tentacles. Shuts down casters, since you can't cast while grappled. Also severely screws over rogues, who generally aren't too good in a grapple either. Plus makes you very popular at Anime conventions.

Solid Fog. No save, No SR, you just suck it up.

Confusion. Confusion to the Enemies! Seriously, this is an encounter-winner against anything without a very good will save.

Resilient Sphere. Offensive, defensive, utility... very handly little spell. Protect fallen comrades, protect yourself if you get attacked, bubble the opponent casters to drop them out of the fight, bubble the charging barbarian. Possibilities are endless.

Phantasmal Killer. Your first death effect. Sadly, allows two different saving throws, either one of which will save his bacon.

Bestow Curse. Let the Cleric do this.

Enervation. Now we're talking! Negative levels are very nasty. This is one of the few spells that is worthwhile to metagmagic for greater effect (Empower). This is a staple in any serious mage's repitoire. Learn it.

Fear. Like Confusion, Fear is absolutely an encounter winner. Be careful to not hit your own allies in the cone.

And for the Utility

Dimension Door. Get This. Seriously, one of the best 'get out of YES' cards available. It requires no somatic components, so you can even cast it while grappled.

Dimensional Anchor. A very useful spell, handy for keeping opponent mages from poofing away. Unless you're encountering a large number of things that like to teleport/ethereal, probably not worthwhile learning. Do keep a few scrolls handy, though.

Shadow Conjuration. With your limited spell list, you'd figure this is a spell to get right off the bat, right? Well, maybe not. Here's the problem. Will save or only 20% effective. Granted, this duplicates a lot of nifty effects, but generally it isn't worth it to get this particular shadow spell, but do look up the higher level one.

Polymorph. I can't even go near this spell without breaking out into hives. This isnt't Gouda, this is Limburger... really stinky cheese.

5th level spells
Got some staple classics in here.

Defensive Spells

There's really no defensive spells at this level. It's all offensive and utility.

Offensive Spells:

Dismissal. Two problems with this. 1) Outsiders have a high Will save, 2) Outsiders generally have SR. Not a very effective method of dealing with outsiders.

Cloudkill. Fort save or Con damage, but even if you make it, you still take Con damage. Kills mooks dead. Also handy for fumigating your place. It doesn't even allow for SR.

Feeblemind. Tailor made to punk other arcane casters. Drops the casting stat to 1, means no casting at all. Congratulations, you're a gimped commoner.

Mind Fog. It would have been pretty sweet... if it didn't allow a Will save. It would have been the ultimate combo, Mind Fog/Feeblemind. As it is, almost pointless.

Hold Monster. Let the Cleric handle this.

Cone of Cold. It's a blaster spell. If you like that sort of thing, go for it.

Shadow Evocation. Most of them now have two different saves, Will and Reflex, but if you want to blast, this would probably be more versitile than getting a bunch of different evocations.

Baleful Polymorph. Probably the only spell in the Polymorph sub-college that I can stand to get near. Pretty obnoxious, although there's a few things out there immune to it.

Telekenisis. Toss your enemies around. Toss your enemies off cliffs, back into the Cloudkill, into a Prismatic Wall/Sphere...

Utility Spells

Break Enchantment. Let the Cleric handle this.

Teleport. If you get this, you will be the party's port bi... erm, I mean Taxi Cab. However, there's few enough spells at this level which are really worth it for Sorcerers to pick up that you may want to get it. At least then your party will never lack for swift transportation to known locations.

Prying Eyes. Not as useful as the greater version, but not a bad method of knowing what lies ahead.

Wall of Force. Probably the only Wall worth getting (other than Prismatic). It requires magic to get rid of, so it can be a major stumbling block if placed properly.

Passwall. Doors? We don't need no stinkin' doors. Also invaluable during dungeon runs.

Woot Spitum
2008-03-13, 02:36 PM
So this is what pure, unadulterated win looks like. Very nice.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-13, 04:47 PM
On the Importance of planning properly for Tactical Advantage
A useful reference for Sorcerers on the choosing of known spells
By: Pip Tallowberry, Sorcerer, Abjurant Champion, and Archmage

Good day ta ye, an' well met. In this particular section, we will be discussing a significant portion of a Sorcerer's power, properly choosing a spell list which will meet your needs.

Many sorcerers have difficulties in choosing a properly balanced spell list, which often results in gaping holes in their defenses, or blind spots in their offensive repitoire. The sad fact is that no sorcerer ever knows enough spells to satisfy him or her. However, with proper care and planning, one can find a suitably flexable spell list which can accomidate nearly any situation.

Let us go over the criteria for properly choosing spells:

* Each spell must be able to be applied in different situations
* Each spell must be something you can reasonabally expect to cast on a near daily basis
* Each spell must be not only powerful when you learn it, but must also continue to be useful well into your career.

As a Sorcerer, you actually posess more magical might than even a Wizard, however you lack the flexibility of a Wizard's grimoire to switch out spells on a daily basis. This means your spell list must be able to be applied to literally every situation you find yourself in.

Due to the limited number of spells you can learn, you must choose those spells you can expect to cast multiple times, building on your strengths as a Sorcerer to cast more times a day than a wizard of equal learning. As such, you are able to toss a spell when a wizard might think twice, but you must make sure that it is a spell you want to have tossed in that situation.

Also, it is difficult to switch out spells, so each spell must be good not only when you find it, but must remain useful for the long haul, as only a limited number of times can you switch out your spells known list.

Also, may I respectfully submit that doing damage is less effective than inflicting status effects? Let's face it, a Fighter with a big sword and the skill to use it is going to be doing more damage than most of our 'nukes' anyways. Let him have his share of the limelight, and cripple opponents so he can mow them down easily.

With this in mind, let us look at the spell list with these criteria in mind:


Couple of comments....



Comprehend Languages. Because it's always nice to know if they're discussing letting you go or how you would taste in the stew.

Comprehend Languages require you touch the person/object you want to understand. Not something to use in hostile situations. Also, it's a Cleric spell - only really useful for a Sorcerer if you're running without support. Don't get this one.


Summon Monster I. Extremely useful. Everything from trap-tripping at a safe distance to creating flanking opportunities for your rogue.

Useful, yes, but the 1 round casting time hangs a big sign on you saying "shoot me now" while casting against intelligent foes; trap-tripping is the Rogue's job. If you're worried about traps, invest in Detect Magic, Unseen Servant, and a sack (full of 100 pounds of rocks) for the Unseen Servant to drag. Detect Magic finds the magic traps, the 100 pound bag of rocks finds the mechanical traps. You'll want two Unseen Servants if you weigh in at more than 100 pounds, but you're a Sorcerer - that isn't an issue.

Unseen Servant does all kinds of nifities - like pulling levers, fetching items, and carrying your bags, to boot.


2nd level spells[spoiler]
Protection from Arrow. If you don't let them close, they're going to try shooting at you. Still, only situationally useful if you don't run across many archers.

Stops being useful after around level 5 or 6, as it only grants DR/magic. Don't get this - skip it, and go with Wind Wall if arrows are an issue.


Rope Trick. This is one of my favorite early spells, getting this after I get Mirror Image. While I don't contribute much offensive punch, I guarentee we won't be jumped in our sleep, allowing us to sleep soundly. Only problem is you can't bring an animal companion or beast of burden up the rope easily.

Until you hit 9th level, not useful for resting unless you've got Extend Spell, too, due to the duration.


See Invisible. So you know if you need to Glitterdust something

Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, or a bat familiar with Blindsense can cover knowing if there's something to Glitterdust - you don't need this one, although it is useful. Besides - Invisibility Purge is a Cleric spell. You'll mostly only need this when you're running without support.


{animal}'s {stat}. In general, not useful for you to learn, however the Con bonus is always a useful thing for everyone. More hit points is good. Note: The +Cha spell does *NOT* increase the DC of your spells, don't bother with it

Err... wha?

Eagle’s Splendor

Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Pal 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes

The transmuted creature becomes more poised, articulate, and personally forceful. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier. Sorcerers and bards (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell’s effect do increase.

Arcane Material Component: A few feathers or a pinch of droppings from an eagle. (Emphasis and Emphasis added).

It explicitly increases save DC's. That's not why you don't get this one - you don't get this one because it's on the Cleric's list too, and it's usually a waste of an action in the middle of battle. This is mostly only useful if you're flying solo.


Knock. Extremely situational, and isn't that why you brought a Rogue along with the party? Wand it if you feel so inclined, but never learn it.

Don't learn it - Shatter, or your targetted direct-damage spells are generally more useful against the stuff it applies to. You really only need to open a lock carefully when doing secretive work - which is why you bring the Rogue along. Handy sometimes if you don't have support, so get a wand or scroll.


Protection from Energy. It isn't the best choice, unless you're really seeing a lot of energy damage.

It's not something you learn, unless you're playing without proper support - it's a Cleric spell.


Magic Circle of Protection from Alignment. Let the Cleric or the Wizard pick this up, you've got too many other choices in front of you.

Here I disagree - but mostly only because it's a requirement for the Planar Binding line....


Wind Wall. Protection from Arrows' bigger brother. Complete immunity to projectiles. Handy when paired with flying. Also difficult to get the combo off and still contribute meaningfully to the party.

Not to projectiles - to arrows. Thrown weapons, sling bullets, and a few other things get through with merely a 30% miss chance. Skip it because it's on the Cleric list, unless you're planning on flying solo. Your lower-level Mirror Image will generally serve you better overall anyway.


Invisibility Sphere. Good for cloaking the party, assuming everyone gets real friendly.

Skip it - you're a Sorcerer. Slap regular Invisibility on everyone in the party. Save your 3rd level spell slot for something a little more useful.


Fireball and Lightning bolt are both here. Pick one or the other up, not both. You have too many other things to get this level to remain balanced, getting both will cripple you. However, these are staples because they are effective against crowds.

Skip both. Take Shadow Evocation later on.


Explosive Runes. Almost utility, but it's probably Abjuration's only spell that actually does damage, so I'll go ahead and list it as offensive. Best of all, anyone reading it doesn't get a save, so it'll even bag rogues. It's a lot of fun, but hard to fit into a sorcerer's limited number of spells known.

Skip it, use Shadow Conjouration for Sepia Snake Sigil.


Magic Weapon, Greater. It's use ramps up as you go up in level. Casting this on a daily basis on your tank's primary weapon means he gets to spend more money on other things. It will also typically out-damage any nuke you would cast, due to the extra damage on every hit he lands.

Skip this one, unless you've got brutes and rogues in the party but no Cleric - it's on the Cleric's list, no need for you to duplicate effort.


Phantom Steed. Hours/level duration. By 14th level, it's effectively Overland Flight, as a 3rd level spell. Better than Fly later on, but Fly gets you airborne earlier. Take your pick.

The HP on the thing are laughable. If it gets hit while you're in the air, you better hope you have Featherfall. Duplicate with Shadow Conjuration later on when it'll give you the Fly speed. Skip actually knowing this one.


Tongues. Like Comprehend Languages, only better.

Skip it, unless you plan on being without support when you need to communicate, and can cast, but can't get away. Situation should be rare enough that you can let the Cleric take this one.


Tiny Hut. Rope Trick is better.

It's got a hidden use - arrow defense. See, from the outside, it's opaque - from the inside, it's transparent. Additionally, the area is big enough that you can get the entire party inside, and move around a bit.


Black Tentacles. Shuts down casters, since you can't cast while grappled. Also severely screws over rogues, who generally aren't too good in a grapple either. Plus makes you very popular at Anime conventions.

Well.. .you can cast while grappled, but you pretty much have to have prepared for it in advance.


Fear. Like Confusion, Fear is absolutely an encounter winner. Be careful to not hit your own allies in the cone.

There's a downside, though - it's harder to loot the guy that ran away than it is to loot the guy who's dead....


Dimension Door. Get This. Seriously, one of the best 'get out of YES' cards available. It requires no somatic components, so you can even cast it while grappled.

Very get this, yes. Pretty much required.


Dimensional Anchor. A very useful spell, handy for keeping opponent mages from poofing away. Unless you're encountering a large number of things that like to teleport/ethereal, probably not worthwhile learning. Do keep a few scrolls handy, though.
Requirement for some of the more flexible Planar Bindings. Get this.


Shadow Conjuration. With your limited spell list, you'd figure this is a spell to get right off the bat, right? Well, maybe not. Here's the problem. Will save or only 20% effective. Granted, this duplicates a lot of nifty effects, but generally it isn't worth it to get this particular shadow spell, but do look up the higher level one.

Use it for the utility spells. Get this.


Dismissal. Two problems with this. 1) Outsiders have a high Will save, 2) Outsiders generally have SR. Not a very effective method of dealing with outsiders.

Useful for when you're bargaining with them, though, when they're trapped and you can spam it. Perfect for someone interested in Planar Binding that doesn't want the meatshield to risk freeing the target while killing it after it refused service.


Shadow Evocation. Most of them now have two different saves, Will and Reflex, but if you want to blast, this would probably be more versitile than getting a bunch of different evocations.

It's also get a hidden benefit - there are combat control and utility spells that are evocations.


Baleful Polymorph. Probably the only spell in the Polymorph sub-college that I can stand to get near. Pretty obnoxious, although there's a few things out there immune to it.

Undead and constructs, primarily.


Telekenisis. Toss your enemies around. Toss your enemies off cliffs, back into the Cloudkill, into a Prismatic Wall/Sphere...

Toss lots of Large Greatswords at your opponents for 3d6 damage per caster level, no save, no SR... pity you have to hit their full AC to pull it off, though.


Teleport. If you get this, you will be the party's port bi... erm, I mean Taxi Cab. However, there's few enough spells at this level which are really worth it for Sorcerers to pick up that you may want to get it. At least then your party will never lack for swift transportation to known locations.

And hey - if you miss, you just try again. And again, and again....


You're missing the Planar Binding line - VERY useful for a Sorcerer, as it lets the Sorcerer pick the perfect Outsider for the job. Likewise, you're missing the Charm line - and a Sorcerer will win most of the opposed Charisma checks to get your new slaves friends to do what you want them to do.
Otherwise, very good review of the spells available to a Sorcerer in Core.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-13, 07:55 PM
The Planar Binding line isn't one I normally suggest, particularly not for one new to the class. First off, you need lots of different spells of different levels to get this to work, drastically limiting your number of spells known left for every other situation to come up. It also requires a lot of prep time, and involves a good deal of risk if the summoned critter gets hostile.

The Charm series may or may not be useful depending on how the DM runs it. I've seen situations in which a Charmed foe simply goes for your buddy rather than you. They most certainly won't listen when you tell them to attack their own comrades. Dominate is better than Charm, but odds are you're going to be asking them to do things that are against their nature, so lots of chances to break the spell.

Solo
2008-03-14, 01:23 AM
You can thank my boredom for this.

Solo

Expert 3


Str: 13
Dex: 10
Con: 13
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

Hp: 16

Alignment: Chaotic Awesome

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Sarcasm]

Languages: English, Chinese

Skills:

Appraise Females: +5
Craft DnD character: +4
Craft Essay: +6
Craft Sarcasm: +5
Craft Winsome Post: +4 (not including the +2 circumstance bonus from Diplomacy and +2 again from Craft Sarcasm)
Diplomacy: +5
BS: +4
Knowledge Chemistry: +8
Knowledge Electronics +2
Knowledge Gaming: +5
Knowledge History: +8
Knowledge Mathematics: +8
Knowledge Physics: +4
Knowledge Pornography: +4
Perform Sarcasm: +9
Perform Piano: +2
Profession College Student: +7

Chronicled
2008-03-18, 01:17 AM
I'm curious: are splatbooks are really going to eventually be covered in the guide, and do you lot need help with it?

Solo
2008-03-18, 01:19 AM
I'm curious: are splatbooks are really going to eventually be covered in the guide, and do you lot need help with it?

I would need a heck of a lot of help with splat books.

Personally, though, I believe most of what you'll need is in Core already, and for things out of Core, TLN's Guide covers it better than I would.

That being said, if you wanted to write up an extension, be my guest.

Chronicled
2008-03-18, 01:22 AM
Hmmm... once my coursework gets caught up, I may be able to do that.

Didn't Azerian Kelimon already volunteer to write up the PHBII? :smallconfused:

Ozymandias
2008-03-18, 01:24 AM
Hey, it's "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair."

A lot of people get that By-wrong.

Solo
2008-03-18, 01:30 AM
Hey, it's "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair."

A lot of people get that By-wrong.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I have written in the Guide.

Ozymandias
2008-03-18, 01:45 AM
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I have written in the Guide.

I'm pretty sure that the part of my brain which is dedicated to "reading comprehension" has been co-opted by the "pointless pedantry" part. I apologize.

thepsycho
2008-03-18, 03:51 AM
"a must read for any sorcerer":biggrin:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-18, 03:55 AM
Very nice guide for beginning sorcerors. Just one thing:

"Enervation – yes, it’s channeling the blackest of energies to cripple an opponent, making it an evil act. That being said, it is also a very effective spell."

If using negative energy to drain the life force out of Baron Nasty Von Tyrant is an evil act, then so is using kinetic energy to chop off his head, I say. Necromancy for the win.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-18, 05:28 AM
True, Enervation doesn't have the evil descriptor, so its just icky, not evil.

Do you mind if I put a link to this in my sig?

The Faceless
2008-03-18, 06:36 AM
Very nice solo, just one nitpick: Shouldn't it be Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems?

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 07:22 AM
Thus, I would advise you to use magic items to compliment your spells known, but never to have a magic item compensate for a hole in your magic.

Ah yes, I can see that. A magical bracelet that, three times per day, tells you how completely awesome you were to select those particular impressive spells :smalltongue:

Solo
2008-03-18, 09:03 AM
Very nice solo, just one nitpick: Shouldn't it be Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems?

Hmmm. Catchy.



True, Enervation doesn't have the evil descriptor, so its just icky, not evil.

Do you mind if I put a link to this in my sig?

Why not? I just did.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-18, 09:57 AM
A compilation of Sorcerous Academies and Specialties
A reference guide to finding alternate paths to sorcerous might
By: Pip Tallowberry, Sorcerer, Abjurant Champion, and Archmage

Now then, it has been requested that someone compile and list the various alternate methods of gaining sorcerous knowledge and power. Seeing as how I have many of the reference books available to me, I have decided to take it upon myself to assay this difficult task.

Before we begin, I would like to point out that I shall only cover the material in the reference books which I have, which is to say PhBII and most of the Completes (Complete Mage, Arcane, Warrior, Divine, Adventurer; Tome of Battle; Heroes of Battle and Heroes of Horror).

Also, let us look carefully at what criteria a Sorcerer should probably use when choosing their specialty:

* It must have a very good spell progression. - What is the point in going through all the trouble to learn additional knowledge when you shirk on your primary arcane might? You are even more hampered here than the Wizard, who gets his 9th level spells first. Except in very rare occasions, any Sorcerer worth the title should plan on trying to get access to 9th level spells at or before level 20. This means you only have 2 levels you can afford to let slip.

* Watch enterance requirements - There's a lot of specialty schools which make their enterance requirements much easier for a Wizard than a mage. For example, the Loremaster requires knowledge of a LOT of different Divinaiton spells. Easy for a Wizard to include in his spellbook, but crippling for a Sorcerer. Also pay particular attention to Feat requirements, as you only get a few of them.

* It must improve your ability to perform your chosen calling - There are a lot of places which teach things that are... less useful for a Sorcerer. The ability to scribe more spells into your spellbook, for instance, is not particularly useful for you.

With these in mind, let us begin with some of the more useful and popular choices:

From Complete Arcane:

Acolyte of the Skin - Half caster progression. For this reason alone, move along. The class abilities are generally not too powerful. Typical, demons promise much, then you find out just how little they really promised.

Alienist - Very creepy, but hey, if that's your thing, it's actually not too bad a choice. Full spellcasting progression, fairly easy enterance requirements. Sure, you loose your sanity in the process, but applying Psudonatural template to everything you summon for free isn't too bad. Get some bonus Metamagic, which is our bread and butter. Upon graduating, you get DR 10/magic, gain the Outsider type, and some Acid Resistance. If you're interested, apply to Miskatonic U. For some reason, they always seem to be taking new students.

Argent Savant - Normally, specialist courses like this spell trouble for Sorcerers, who lack the depth of repitoire to make up the lack elsewhere, but this one actually isn't too bad. You do loose one level of spellcasting, and it's the first level, which does kind of suck. But the truely sucky part of this is trying to qualify with knowing 5 different Force spells. May I direct you to Shield, Mage Armor, and Magic Missiles, all of which are 1st level spells? Force damage is nice, and this will significantly contribute to the damage of your Magic Missiles. Futhermore, it will also increase the defensive value of both Shield and Mage Armor.

Blood Magus - Okay, you loose 2 caster levels, which is painful, but at least you can still get a 9th level spell if you're careful. It requires a couple of worthless feats, which hurts more. The abilities are actually kind of on the weak side, really. Blood Component, hurt yourself to get the Eschew Materials feat. Not too useful. Durable Casting - if you're only getting hit for 5-10 damage a shot, you won't need to worry about making Concentration checks anyways. Staunch - By the time you get this, the odds of landing right in that -1 to -10 area is pretty slim. Things tend to either leave you a greasy stain or miss. Scarification/Blood drought really aren't your cup of tea, you don't know enough spells to make them worth it. Bloodwalk is about the only thing really worth it, but it's still only so-so.

Effigy Master - Not worth it for a Sorcerer. Too many skills required.

Elemental Savant - Oh yea, this one is real popular with the Blasters. Sad thing is, it cripples you. So now you're a blaster, already not as powerful as some of the choices, but you only blast in one element. Ummm... pass.

Fatespinner - Now we're talking. Don't feel bad if you have to drop out before you graduate, everyone else does too. That last level really isn't worth the loss of caster level, but the rest are very useful indeed.

Geometer - It's for Wizards more than us. Too many extra hoops for us to jump through, and the primary benefits are pointless.

Green Star Adept - Turning into a golem, with all the immunities implied, sounds like a good deal, right? But not at the cost of only half casting progression. Before you point out all the immunities again, may I point out the immunity to cure spells? Better hope you can pick up some Repair Damage spells.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil - The enterance requirements are very steep, and again Wizards have an easier time qualifying than we do, but it is very much worth it. If you haven't picked up three abujration spells before you hit 8th level, then I am surprised. Shield and Dispel Magic are both 'must have' spells. Pick one random aburation spell, then two of 4th or higher. That probably means you're not entering until 10th level or later. But that's okay, it's only 7 levels anyways, and most of the prerequsite feats also help you apply for Archmage. And oh the cheese...

Mage of the Arcane Order - Yet another case where the enterance requirements favor Wizards over Sorcerers, but this one is so much more worth it for us that it's worth blowing the extra feat to qualify. Pulling any spell out of your hat when you need it is just too handy for the flexability-impaired Sorcerer. And hey, it's not like you're going to have to worry about Spellpool debt, with as many spells per day as you cast.

Master Transmogrifiest - Friends don't let friends do cheeze. This is a specialty which focuses on making cheese even cheesier. But does so poorly.

Mindbender - If it wasn't half casting progression, it wouldn't be bad. As it is, move along.

Wayfarer Guide - Pointless. Grab Teleport, Greater instead.

Wild mage - Friends don't let friends do Wild Magic. Seriously, this stuff is as likely to hurt you as to help you. Avoid this.

From Complete Adventurer
Only one arcane class here

Daggerspell Mage - Requires at least a one-level dip on another class, and the 1st level doesn't promote casting. This is designed more for the rogue/sorcerers who are more into knifing than tricking.

From Complete Divine
Yea, divine. I guess some Sorcerers 'get religion'. It's generally a bad idea, though, as far as Arcane Might goes.

Rainbow Servant - On first blush, it looks pretty awsome, gain knowledge of all cleric spells! But wait... you just get access to them. You still have to buy them with spells known slots. In other words, it's like Mystic Theurge, with more Suck and fewer spells per day.

Complete Mage
There's some gems here, diamonds in the (very) rough.

Abjurant Champion - At first glance, you might say 'Gish Class, move on', but wait, why is it only for Gish? Okay, it requires a BAB +5, that means you can't enter until after 10th level. So what, it's only a five level PrC anyways. The proficency in one martial weapon might hurt, although Elves get lucky here. In exchange, you get full casting, [i]full BAB progression[/b], and look at the abilities! First off, your Shield spell gets it's defensive bonus beefed up. How about a +9 to AC from it? Then, at 2nd level, you get to auto-quicken it! Considering how difficult it is for us to be able to quicken ANYTHING, this is GOLD. You can also beef up AC or saves or elemental resistance on the fly if something is about to do something nasty to you. The D10 Hit Die doesn't hurt either.

Holy Scourge - Hey, you can blast for a little more damage against specific things! In exchange, you loose a caster level and you get the Paladin stick-up-your-Pigu class ability! Ummm... pass.

Nightmare Spinner Oh, now here is some potential. You loose a spell level, but not bad class abilities. One extra spell cast per level per day, but it has to be Illusion. Oh boo hoo, I get to be able to cast Mirror Image more times per day. Immunity to Fear, because Fear sucks. Inspire Fear, again, because Fear sucks. Later on, this gets situational as you run into more things immune to mind-affecting, but hey, this isn't bad for shutting things down.

Unseen Seer Like Arcane Trickster, but with a different flavor. Don't bother, it does incrase your CL for Divination, but dumps the rest by an equal amount. Plus, it requires a crapton of skills, requiring multiple levels of Rogue to qualify. Good for a rogue/sorcerer build, but not for a straight Sorcerer.

Complete Warrior
Only two in here are Rage Mage, and Spellsword. Both are for Gishes, which we won't go into here.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 10:13 AM
Mindbender - If it wasn't half casting progression, it wouldn't be bad. As it is, move along.
Taking one level of it, however, can be very useful.



Wild mage - Friends don't let friends do Wild Magic. Seriously, this stuff is as likely to hurt you as to help you. Avoid this.
Depends. If you combine it with the Practiced Spellcaster feat, you'll always have a random bonus to your casting level. That's not bad.

Off the top of my head, there's also Ruathar (which helps with prereqs) and Wild Soul. And, of course, you can always try for weirdness as Ur-Priest.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-18, 10:26 AM
Taking one level of it, however, can be very useful. I dunno, awful lot of skill requirements there, and all of them, except bluff, are cross-class.



Depends. If you combine it with the Practiced Spellcaster feat, you'll always have a random bonus to your casting level. That's not bad.

I don't think that is how it works. The ability applies a penalty/bonus to CL, it's not a lack of levels in caster that is the problem. I don't think that combo works. Besides, summoning a rhino on your own head by accident really sucks.


Off the top of my head, there's also Ruathar (which helps with prereqs) and Wild Soul. And, of course, you can always try for weirdness as Ur-Priest.

Ur-Priest is Divine, this is for Sorcerers. Wild Soul sounds more druidish than sorcerish. I haven't heard of Ruathar.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 10:47 AM
I don't think that is how it works. The ability applies a penalty/bonus to CL, it's not a lack of levels in caster that is the problem.
Charop boards claim it does. By RAW, Wild Mage gives you a -3 penalty to your caster level, and an 1d6 bonus. Practiced Spellcaster gives you a +4 bonus to your caster level, to the maximum of your actual level. That adds up to zero, plus the 1d6 bonus.


Ur-Priest is Divine, this is for Sorcerers. Wild Soul sounds more druidish than sorcerish. I haven't heard of Ruathar.
Wrong, and wrong. Ur-priest can be entered by a sorcerer, doesn't increase cleric levels, and is quite an effective way of getting high-level spells early through its own casting progression. I don't care how wild soul "sounds", what it actually is is a caster class that increases sorcerer levels.

Chronicled
2008-03-18, 03:37 PM
Ruathar is from Races of the Wild, and is a good enough PrC--you get some decent freebees without losing anything. It's not spectacular since there's usually something better you can take.

It does have some nice flavor, though.

Frosty
2008-03-18, 05:21 PM
Hmm, I wonder if you can do wierd things with Ultimate Magus progression by exploting Wild Mage.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 05:40 PM
Hmm, I wonder if you can do wierd things with Ultimate Magus progression by exploting Wild Mage.

That would work, because Wild Mage would reduce the caster level of all your classes, and then Practiced Spellcaster could improve the spontaneous side spellcasting to normal, so that UM increases your prepared side every time.

However, you can also do this for two of the three 'non-double' UM levels with only Practiced Spellcaster, and you can get the third by being a kobold or illumian.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-19, 12:56 AM
So, what about a guide to magic items? Some coverage of what magic items to keep an eye out for would be good. The +X cloak of charisma is the only no-brainer.

Talic
2008-03-19, 01:37 AM
Metamagic Rods are also a no brainer. As was said before, sorceror + quicken = win.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-19, 04:28 AM
What are the prereqs for wild mage? Is it something that can be dipped on the way to archmage, or is it something that requires a larger investment? I am liking the wild mage + practiced spellcaster combo.

Starbuck_II
2008-03-19, 06:30 AM
What are the prereqs for wild mage? Is it something that can be dipped on the way to archmage, or is it something that requires a larger investment? I am liking the wild mage + practiced spellcaster combo.

Do note the FAQ disagrees that Wild Mage works.
According to them PS is applied at the end not at the beginning.
So -3 + 1d6= less than HD than add PS (up to +3).

And Sorcerors can't use quicken metamagic even rods.

The Glyphstone
2008-03-19, 06:57 AM
I dunno, awful lot of skill requirements there, and all of them, except bluff, are cross-class.


Skill point requirements are one of the easiest limitations to meet - and the benefit of Mindbender 1 isn't too impressive at first glance...just Telepathy...what's impressive is that taking that level qualifies you for the Mindsight feat at level 6 (same level you take Mindbender), a fantastically useful ability until enemies start throwing up Mind Blank at level 15+.

Solo
2008-03-19, 07:29 AM
So, what about a guide to magic items? Some coverage of what magic items to keep an eye out for would be good. The +X cloak of charisma is the only no-brainer.

Cloaks of Charisma, Tomes of Influence and Leadership, metamagic Rods of all flavors, and Bracers of Armor are the best sorcerer specific items I can think of.

I'm not too familiar with magic items, but I usually go with what seems most fun/useful depending on the campaign.


Oh, and scrolls. Many, many scrolls.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-19, 07:34 AM
Skill point requirements are one of the easiest limitations to meet - and the benefit of Mindbender 1 isn't too impressive at first glance...just Telepathy...
Depends. For combat effectiveness, it's not that important. In terms of coolness, however, it's a big hit.


Cloaks of Charisma, Tomes of Influence and Leadership, metamagic Rods of all flavors, and Bracers of Armor are the best sorcerer specific items I can think of.
That ioun stone that adds a caster level. Ring of countermagic (against dispels). Githcraft twilight mithril armor, because it doesn't have arcane spell failure. Anything that adds to defense other than armor class, like rings of blinking. Fortified armor, to protect against crits and sneak attacks with your low hit points.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-19, 08:13 AM
Charop boards claim it does. By RAW, Wild Mage gives you a -3 penalty to your caster level, and an 1d6 bonus. Practiced Spellcaster gives you a +4 bonus to your caster level, to the maximum of your actual level. That adds up to zero, plus the 1d6 bonus.

CharOp boards also came up with PunPun and infinite damage combos. And FAQ says it is applied after. Semi-official vs a group of munchkins... hmm... let's see which one I'd listen to first...



Wrong, and wrong. Ur-priest can be entered by a sorcerer, doesn't increase cleric levels, and is quite an effective way of getting high-level spells early through its own casting progression. I don't care how wild soul "sounds", what it actually is is a caster class that increases sorcerer levels.

You misunderstand my meaning. This is for pure sorcerers. Your suggestion would rape his arcane spellcasting progression. Every level taken of Ur-Priest is a level you don't progress arcane casting, and a Sorcerer can only afford TWO non-progressing levels or he looses on 9th level spells. You can't Time Stop as an Ur-Priest. Or Foresight.

And I went and looked up Wild Mage. In exchange for loosing a caster level, you get to summon sucky things and get some bonuses while they're summoned. Not too terribally useful.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-19, 08:21 AM
CharOp boards also came up with PunPun and infinite damage combos. And FAQ says it is applied after.
Both pun-pun and infinite damage combos are perfectly legal by RAW. WOTC secondary sources have a habit of contradicting themselves (e.g. some say White Raven Tactics work on yourself, others say it doesn't).

You should drop the arrogant condescending tone. You are not in the absolute right here, you are just offering your interpretation and opinion, and you should be able to do that without being snarky or insulting. Calling suggestions you don't like "sucky" or "rape" or a "group of munchkins" is completely uncalled for.


You can't Time Stop as an Ur-Priest. Or Foresight.
As a matter of fact you can, via domain spells, and you can do so earlier than a straight sorcerer/20 can. It is certainly a viable build option.



And I went and looked up Wild Mage. In exchange for loosing a caster level, you get to summon sucky things and get some bonuses while they're summoned. Not too terribally useful.
That's not what wild mage does at all.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-19, 10:21 PM
You should drop the arrogant condescending tone. You are not in the absolute right here, you are just offering your interpretation and opinion, and you should be able to do that without being snarky or insulting. Calling suggestions you don't like "sucky" or "rape" or a "group of munchkins" is completely uncalled for. Hello Kettle, this is Pot, you're black.



As a matter of fact you can, via domain spells, and you can do so earlier than a straight sorcerer/20 can. It is certainly a viable build option.

I beg to differ. Page 70 of Complete Divine, under Spells per day, second paragraph. It specifically states that Ur-Priests do not get domains. This is not a 'build a Mystic Theurge' thread, it's a Sorcerer thread, which means Arcane. Ur-Priest has it's place in duo-realm casting, being a very cheezy way of getting 9th level spells on both sides by using Ur-Priest spell progression on the divine side. However, since this thread is about sorcerers, not duo-realm builds, I didn't bother including it.



That's not what wild mage does at all.
Ummm... yes it does. You get to summon Fae critters which are either identical or worse than what you would normally summon with your typical Summon Monster spell for that level. Read the fine print, and you see that all the Seelie Bond abilities only work when you have a fae critter summoned. So yea, like I said. A whole bunch of suck.

Solo
2008-03-19, 10:33 PM
I would appreciate it if no one got this thread locked, if you know what I mean.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-19, 11:06 PM
I would appreciate it if no one got this thread locked, if you know what I mean.Don't want to live up to the headmaster's legacy?

Solo
2008-03-19, 11:07 PM
Oh, no, not at all. I just don't want to have my thread locked and then get banned afterwards before the thread has surpassed the Batman Guide in length.

MeklorIlavator
2008-03-19, 11:34 PM
:snip:

Ummm... yes it does. You get to summon Fae critters which are either identical or worse than what you would normally summon with your typical Summon Monster spell for that level. Read the fine print, and you see that all the Seelie Bond abilities only work when you have a fae critter summoned. So yea, like I said. A whole bunch of suck.
Actually, what your describing isn't the wild mage at all( that class is from the Complete Arcane, and gives the -3 to caster level, +1d6), its the wild soul, from the Compete Mage.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-20, 12:38 AM
Yeah, the FAQ isn't RAW. It is often also wrong, and at times contradicts itself. The Char-Op boards tend to be much more careful in sticking to the RAW then the FAQ. Given that exploiting loopholes is what they do.

So instead of call pots and kettles black, we could be productive, and call the FAQ and the Char-Op boards what they are - resources.

I don't really see Ur Priest as a sorceror option though. Sorceror as an Ur-Priest option, yes, but an Ur Priest isn't a sorceror, it is an Ur-Priest. That whole divine vs. arcane issue gets in the way there.

IMO, the only reason to go Ur Priest at all is to exploit it with Mystic Theurge*. Losing Arcane spellcasting to get Divine spellcasting with lower HD, BAB, and prereqs seems like a sucker move to me. To quote the headmaster, "Anytime a wizard casts a spell on the cleric's list, for that round he's a sucker".

I think that applies equally to sorcerors, as they also could have better HD, proficiencies, BAB, and the ability to cast in armor if they want to cast spells on the cleric list.

*before you ask, I don't know the details of how this is done, I've just seen people mention comboing UrPriest and Mystic Theurge.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 02:10 AM
Yeah, the FAQ isn't RAW. It is often also wrong, and at times contradicts itself. The Char-Op boards tend to be much more careful in sticking to the RAW then the FAQ. Given that exploiting loopholes is what they do.

So instead of call pots and kettles black, we could be productive, and call the FAQ and the Char-Op boards what they are - resources.

QFT.

To be honest, I'd sooner trust the Char-Op boards' claims than those of the FAQ. The former has a higher propensity to be correct than the latter.

Solo
2008-03-23, 12:43 AM
Core Equipment:
With help from Shneeky the Lost


Scrolls:

Buy scrolls of spells you'll use occasionally. Plane Shift, for example. All spells that I have noted are better cast by wizards fall into scroll territory.


Wands:

Buy wands of spells you'll use a lot, but don't want to waste spells known on.

Make sure the spells in your wands are not Save or X spells, nor rely heavily on a high caster level for effectiveness.

Shnkeeky:

Of course, any Sorcerer worth the title knows his limited spell list means he needs an extra supply of scrolls and wands to make up his lack of knowledge. Here's a few wands I've found useful...

* First off, recall the disadvantage of wands: it uses a base caster level rather than yours, and can only be up to 4th level spells.

* Second, the DC's do *NOT* take into account your primary casting stat. So don't bother with Save or Screwed spells, they'll never land.

* It has 50 charges, so only wand it if you plan on doing it a LOT, otherwise just grab a couple of scrolls.

With this in mind, you don't want wands that have a lot of level-dependent stuff. That means, unfortunately, a lot of your 'blaster' spells. However, there are some very useful utility spells to pick up as wands:

Grease. No level-dependent effects, and no SR to worry about. Flat DC balance check. It's always good for a few laughs. If you don't know it, DO wand it.

Summon Monster I. Surprisingly handy utility. Use it to trip traps, walk into dubious areas wherein you suspect might be hazardous, to experiment with unknown substances...

Ray of Enfeeblement. Handy at low levels, not so much at higher levels. No save, and not much in the way of level-dependent stuff. If you like using it a lot, wand it.

Expeditious Retreat. What you do when something does close with you. At least until you can afford Dimension Door.

Knock. Wand this, because caster level is irrelevant. And you never know when your skillmonkey isn't skilled enough.

Glitterdust. If you don't learn it, wand it. It points out invisible things.

Web. Good battlefield control, has a use even if they make the save.

Mirror Image. Really, you should have this as a Known spell, so you shouldn't need to wand it. If, for some reason, you decide to NOT pick it up, Wand it, and smack yourself in the head for not learning it.

(animal)'s (stat). If your party wants buffing, ask them to buy you the wands. This makes them think twice about calling you a worthless buff-bot.

Rope Trick. It would be expensive to get it as cast by an 8th level caster (12,000 by my calculations), but hey, that's an awful lot of adventuring days you don't need to worry about being ambushed.

Silence. Use it in the area effect version that doesn't allow save. Follow up with a method of keeping them in the area. Nerfs opponent casters.

Rings:

Rings of Protection are always good
Rings of Spell Turning are great for defense against other casters.
Rings of Freedom of Movement means you don't have to fear grappling monks, ever.
Rings of X Ray Vision... have applications not appreciated by people who do not ware lead lined clothing.

Armor:

Twilight Mythral Feycraft OMGTWFBBQ Chain Shirt of Heavy Fortification.

It is a pain to write on our character sheet, but it is a chain shirt that is wearable, and give you immunity to critical hits and sneak attack.

It is a great thing to have... but does it make anyone else feel dirty to own a piece of equipment whose name is longer than that of several real world countries combined?

Never mind, it isn't core either. Now, a Mithral Buckler of Heavy Fortification is, so grab that instead.

Rods:

Rod of Absorption - Absorb spells, and use the energy to cast more spells. A good buy.

Rod of Cancellation - Crafted by Fox News, this rod is a one shot affair that Disjunctions any magic item it touches. Might be useful.

Immovable Rod - As with the Decanter of Endless Water, this is a fun item with many uses. Everyone loves an Immovable Rod!

Rod of Lordly Might - Best pickup line ever.

Rod of Wonder - Pure win. Almost as dangerous to you as it is to your enemies.

Metamagic Rods:

Core sorcerers cannot use Quicken Spell, but a Rod of Maximize really helps out with Enervations. Widen Spell, Enlarge Spell, and other minor metamagic feats are can be had as Rods, but aren't necessarily worth it.

Then again, Disintegrating someone from over 800 feet away can be rather nice....


Wondrous Items:

Bracers of Armor: Better than Mage Armor, but it won't stack with your Chain Shirt of OMGWTFBBQness.

Decanter of Endless Water: It won't improve your casting per se, but it is always a fun item to have, and will foil your DM's plotting with a bit of ingenuity and a knowledge of fluid physics. (Hint: Pressure= Density*acceleration due to gravity*depth)

Handy Haversack, Bag of Holding: These types of things make up for a Sorcerer's lack of carrying capacity.

Hand of Glory: Ah, the Hand of Glory. Insert a candle and it gives light only to the holder! Best friend of thieves and plunderers! Your have fine taste, sir.

The best part is that it allows you to add an extra ring slot. A bargain for everyone who likes rings; normally, you'd have to either use an epic feat to free up some ring space or... get creative down under.

Ehlonna's Quiver (Efficent Quiver). Surprisingly useful. What, you don't use bows and arrows? No, but a Wand is the same size as an arrow, so you can carry all your wands around with easy access. Rods go in the Javelin slot, and Staves go in the Bow slot.

Glove of Storing. If you're not getting the Dexterity, this can be used to always make sure you've got a wand on-hand. (Not to self: Stab Shneeky to death for pun.)

Cloak of Charisma/Gloves of Dexterity/Amulet of Health: Use is obvious

Cloak of Etherealness: Good item, if you don't have the spell, but if you want to use it, you have to give up the Cloak of Charisma.

Cloak of Resistance: Good for making sure you don't die as easily, but same problem as above.

Ioun Stones: the Orange Ioun stone increases your caster level by +1, for a hefty price. Get it.

The ones that absorb spells are also pretty useful. Grab as many as you want and proceed to give children you meet astronomy lessons.

Marvelous Pigments: Paint your way out of trouble! Finally, Art majors can do something useful. (warning: For the sake of your sanity and mine, keep these the hell away from Dalai, Picasso, Gaugan, and anyone associated with them.)

Robe of the Archmagi: The armor, caster level check and resistance bonuses are nice. The SR will be ineffectual at the level you get it, unless you go around beating up lesser casters a lot.

Scarab of Protection

The scarab’s possessor gains spell resistance 20. The scarab can also absorb energy-draining attacks, death effects, and negative energy effects. Upon absorbing twelve such attacks, the scarab turns to powder and is destroyed.

An excellent way of avoiding a Finger of Death to the face. Doesn't stack with the Amulet of Health, though.


Tome of X: Increases X stat by 1-5 points. You know which one to increase.

Non-Core Equipment:


Armor:

The Twilight Mythral Feycraft OMGTWFBBQ Chain Shirt of Heavy Fortification, if you so desire.

Wondrous Items:

Belt of Magnificence (MHB): A bonus to all stats. A +6 belt will cost you 200,000. Worth it.


Cursed Items:

Buy these and give them to your enemies.

Solo
2008-03-23, 01:34 AM
Good non-core spells for a sorcerer to know:

Good non-core spells have also been covered in TLN's guide, but here are some that weren't, as they apply more to sorcerers than wizards.


Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, level 9 (SpC)

Disintegrate on steroids. I hope you have been practicing your evil laughter.


Maw of Chaos, level 9 (SpC)

An AOE damage spell that deals 1d6/caster level force damage and disrupts concentration. Crazy good.


Reaving Dispel, level 9, (SpC)

Dispel magic and steal the effect of spells for yourself!

Warning: use Greater Arcane Sight to make sure you don't slap a Dominate Person on yourself by accident.


Veil of Undeath, level 8 (SpC)

You do not gain the undead subtye, but you gain most of the benifits of being undead.

Warning: EVIL!!!


Arcane Spellsurge, level 7 (DM)

It is a self only spells take one less round to cast, turns full-round spells into standard actions, and standard actions into swift actions. It is itself a swift action to cast (for Dragonblood casters), and lasts for one round per level.

Just be careful not to run out of swift actions.


Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, level 6 (OotS)

A mean Evocation [Force] spell that grapples enemies and deals 4d6 piercing damage to them.

Chimeras affected by this spell must make a Will save to avoid becoming panicked, due to the fact that they are not comfortable being grappled down there.


Assay Spell Resistance, level 4 (CAr)

Swift action, +10 to CLC against SR. When combined with Spell power, Ioun Stones, and/or the Spell Penetration feats, this means you can tell creatures with SR to go suck it. Having all of those is probably overkill, though.


Orb of Force, level 4 (CAr)

A Conjuration ranged touch attack spell that deals 10d6 Force Damage. Suck it, virtually every monster created, you are taking damage.


Rune Delver's Fortune, level 4 (SpC)

A wonderful spell that helps you get lucky.

As an immediate action, you get to make yourself immune to certain things and gain a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier on one saving throw, or temporary HP. Immunities linked to saving throw chosen.


Wings of Flurry, level 4 (DM)

An Evocation area effect force damage spell that also dazes enemies who fail their reflex save. It's uncapped for caster level-based damage. Suck it, Evo... wait what?


Defenestrating Sphere, level 4, (SpC)

A sphere pf air knocks enemies prone and hurls them upward for subsequent falling damage. If windows are nearby, then out it goes.

Damn you WotC for making me dislike Evocation less.


Melf's Unicorn Arrow, level 3 (PHB2)

Best blasting spell ever. A Conjuration spell, ranged touch attack, that deals untyped damage, and bull rushes your opposition. What more could you ask for?


Unluck, level 3, (SpC)

The target is forced to re-roll every roll he makes and take the worse of the two results. Diviniation, Will Save, non-mind affecting.


Wings of Cover, level 2 (DM)

Grants total cover to you as an immediate action. Suck it, Dread Wraiths who can attack only once per round.


Cloud of Knives, level 2 (SpC)

*Stabbity stab stab stab*

Jack_Simth
2008-03-23, 01:36 AM
Armor: Twilight Mythral Feycraft OMGTWFBBQ Chain Shirt of Heavy Fortification.

Slight catch:
While Mithril, Heavy Fortification, and the Chain shirt are Core, Twilight and Feycraft are not.

A Mithral Buckler, on the other hand....

Solo
2008-03-23, 01:53 AM
Slight catch:
While Mithril, Heavy Fortification, and the Chain shirt are Core, Twilight and Feycraft are not.



Am I still allowed to make fun of it?


A Mithral Buckler, on the other hand....

Noted and thank you.


By the way, any help you guys could give me on worthwhile items and spell choices from non-core material would be extremely welcome. Please describe such items in a humerous and informative way.:smallwink:

Talic
2008-03-23, 02:05 AM
I prefer putting padded armor of heavy Fort +1 with the elusive target feat.

Now you can deny crits, sneak attack, AND power attack. All you need is a death ward effect and you're pretty well set on being a hard target for beatsticks, whether they be living or undeady.

It is, however, non-core.

Solo
2008-03-23, 02:42 AM
Updated: Treantmonk's Guide to Being a God (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956548) now linked to, under TLN's Guide.

Formatting revised.

Spell descriptions polished.

Core equipment and non core spells expanded on.

Ascension
2008-03-23, 05:45 PM
Since you say that a familiar isn't very useful for a sorcerer, what do you think of the Spell Shield variant from Dungeonscape? You give up your familiar and in exchange you gain this ability: When you take damage from any source you can take an immediate action to expend a spell slot and make a DC 15 + spell level concentration check. If you succeed you negate up to five times the level of the spell slot in damage.

It doesn't sound worth the spell slot to me, but sorcerers do get a heck of a lot of spells per day compared to their studious brethren.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-23, 06:02 PM
Since you say that a familiar isn't very useful for a sorcerer, what do you think of the Spell Shield variant from Dungeonscape? You give up your familiar and in exchange you gain this ability: When you take damage from any source you can take an immediate action to expend a spell slot and make a DC 15 + spell level concentration check. If you succeed you negate up to five times the level of the spell slot in damage.

It doesn't sound worth the spell slot to me, but sorcerers do get a heck of a lot of spells per day compared to their studious brethren.

Oooh. That sounds nice. Its a shame I can't give up my familiar twice. Being able to say "Actually, I cast rainbow pattern one time fewer today. Your 20 damage is irrelevant. My turn. I cast fly and go out of range. Nice try though."

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-23, 06:08 PM
I'd rather ditch the familiar for spontanious metamagic.

Mithral Buckler is good at low levels, but higher up, you generally find something that gives good shield AC. I know with AbChamp, you get to drop a Shield spell (which is a shield bonus to AC) for +9 to AC, which beats a Mithral Buckler cold. To begin with, though, it is 1 AC...

Ehlonna's Quiver (Efficent Quiver). Surprisingly useful. What, you don't use bows and arrows? No, but a Wand is the same size as an arrow, so you can carry all your wands around with easy access. Rods go in the Javelin slot, and Staves go in the Bow slot.

Handy Haversack. Every adventurer should want one.

Ring of Freedom of Movement. Immunity to things that make you a target. Works for me.

Gloves of Dexterity. Extra AC and ranged touch attack bonus is always a good thing.

Glove of Storing. If you're not getting the Dexterity, this can be used to always make sure you've got a wand on-hand.

Of course, any Sorcerer worth the title knows his limited spell list means he needs an extra supply of scrolls and wands to make up his lack of knowledge. Here's a few wands I've found useful...

* First off, recall the disadvantage of wands: it uses a base caster level rather than yours, and can only be up to 4th level spells.

* Second, the DC's do *NOT* take into account your primary casting stat. So don't bother with Save or Screwed spells, they'll never land.

* It has 50 charges, so only wand it if you plan on doing it a LOT, otherwise just grab a couple of scrolls.

With this in mind, you don't want wands that have a lot of level-dependent stuff. That means, unfortunately, a lot of your 'blaster' spells. However, there are some very useful utility spells to pick up as wands:

Grease. No level-dependent effects, and no SR to worry about. Flat DC balance check. It's always good for a few laughs. If you don't know it, DO wand it.

Summon Monster I. Surprisingly handy utility. Use it to trip traps, walk into dubious areas wherein you suspect might be hazardous, to experiment with unknown substances...

Ray of Enfeeblement. Handy at low levels, not so much at higher levels. No save, and not much in the way of level-dependent stuff. If you like using it a lot, wand it.

Expeditious Retreat. What you do when something does close with you. At least until you can afford Dimension Door.

Knock. Wand this, because caster level is irrelevant. And you never know when your skillmonkey isn't skilled enough.

Glitterdust. If you don't learn it, wand it. It points out invisible things.

Web. Good battlefield control, has a use even if they make the save.

Mirror Image. Really, you should have this as a Known spell, so you shouldn't need to wand it. If, for some reason, you decide to NOT pick it up, Wand it, and smack yourself in the head for not learning it.

(animal)'s (stat). If your party wants buffing, ask them to buy you the wands. This makes them think twice about calling you a worthless buff-bot.

Rope Trick. It would be expensive to get it as cast by an 8th level caster (12,000 by my calculations), but hey, that's an awful lot of adventuring days you don't need to worry about being ambushed.

Silence. Use it in the area effect version that doesn't allow save. Follow up with a method of keeping them in the area. Nerfs opponent casters.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-23, 06:44 PM
Mithral Buckler is good at low levels, but higher up, you generally find something that gives good shield AC. I know with AbChamp, you get to drop a Shield spell (which is a shield bonus to AC) for +9 to AC, which beats a Mithral Buckler cold. To begin with, though, it is 1 AC...

There's surprisingly little in the way of methods for an Arcanist to get a good Shield AC - Abjurant Champion is one, as it grants a bonus to the Shield spell, and lets you cast it as a Swift action. But to get the +9 AC from it, you're dropping five levels into the class... and the class costs two feats (or a feat and one level) that generally aren't worthwhile otherwise (combat casting and Martial Weapon Proficiency). You can get up to +6 Shield AC from a Mithral Buckler spending only cash (26,015 gp for a +5 Mithril Buckler, specifically, although you'll generally do better convincing your party Cleric to slap Magic Vestments on non-magical one regularly). Don't get me wrong - the Abjurant Champion is a decent PrC, even for a pure caster, but there's better PrC's out there, that may very well fit your flavor better.

Overlord
2008-03-23, 07:53 PM
Ah, Solo, you truly are a Stupendously Superior Man among men.

Thanks for a very nice revision to your excellent Sorcerer's guide.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-23, 08:44 PM
There's surprisingly little in the way of methods for an Arcanist to get a good Shield AC - Abjurant Champion is one, as it grants a bonus to the Shield spell, and lets you cast it as a Swift action. But to get the +9 AC from it, you're dropping five levels into the class... and the class costs two feats (or a feat and one level) that generally aren't worthwhile otherwise (combat casting and Martial Weapon Proficiency). You can get up to +6 Shield AC from a Mithral Buckler spending only cash (26,015 gp for a +5 Mithril Buckler, specifically, although you'll generally do better convincing your party Cleric to slap Magic Vestments on non-magical one regularly). Don't get me wrong - the Abjurant Champion is a decent PrC, even for a pure caster, but there's better PrC's out there, that may very well fit your flavor better.

Or be an Elf, and get FREE martial weapon proficencies. Combat Casting, yea sub-par, but AbChamp is full spellcasting and full BAB. So not only do you get to increase your BAB for rays and such, but you also get the vastly useful D10 hit die for 5 levels, giving you an *average* of 15-20 extra hit points. Plus the quicken Shield for +9 AC, quickened Dispel Magic, Quickened Protection from Evil that grants a +6 deflection mod to AC, and an ability to jack up your saves or AC even further if you know it's comming, since you got spell slots to blow.

It's really not bad. Not something to start out with, certainly, but definately a solid choice. A build like Sorc5/MotAO10/AbChamp5 is a solid build. Even better is Sorc5/MotAO7/AbChamp5/Archmage3. Lots of flexability and survivability.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-24, 01:10 AM
Ray of Enfeeblement. Handy at low levels, not so much at higher levels. No save, and not much in the way of level-dependent stuff. If you like using it a lot, wand it.

Ray of Enfeeblement is the first shot of a two-shot takedown.

RoE + RoE is a solid combo, as the Ray of Exhaustion can get around the min. 1 problem Ray of Enfeeblement has. For two level 3 slots, you can empowered RoE, followed by Ray of Exhaustion. Thats an average of 10-12 strength penalty, followed by a -6 to strength from exhaustion. Which means that unless your target is buff, he's a heap on the ground, and if he is buff, he isn't anymore. Ray of Enfeeblement can also take the teeth out of a powerattack build. All you need is to drop their strength below 13 to take away most of their build.

Ray of Enfeeblement is even better if the DM doesn't houserule away the fact that it isn't ability damage, it is a penalty, which means it applies to almost everything.

Talic
2008-03-24, 02:32 AM
Ray of Enfeeblement is the first shot of a two-shot takedown.

RoE + RoE is a solid combo, as the Ray of Exhaustion can get around the min. 1 problem Ray of Enfeeblement has. For two level 3 slots, you can empowered RoE, followed by Ray of Exhaustion. Thats an average of 10-12 strength penalty, followed by a -6 to strength from exhaustion. Which means that unless your target is buff, he's a heap on the ground, and if he is buff, he isn't anymore. Ray of Enfeeblement can also take the teeth out of a powerattack build. All you need is to drop their strength below 13 to take away most of their build.

Ray of Enfeeblement is even better if the DM doesn't houserule away the fact that it isn't ability damage, it is a penalty, which means it applies to almost everything.

For the really high strength things, I suppose you could stock an Escalating Enfeeblement or two in scroll form.

I prefer Ray of Fatigue, Escalating Enfeeblement (sudden max), Ray of exhaust.

1st ray can be off scroll. If going against high str, RoExhaust first, then EE.

Non core, but I like it a bit more personally.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-24, 02:55 AM
Escalating? Que?

Jack_Simth
2008-03-24, 06:25 AM
Or be an Elf, and get FREE martial weapon proficencies.
Well, not free - it required your racial pick, and most elf variants have a con penalty.

Combat Casting, yea sub-par, but AbChamp is full spellcasting and full BAB. So not only do you get to increase your BAB for rays and such, but you also get the vastly useful D10 hit die for 5 levels, giving you an *average* of 15-20 extra hit points. Plus the quicken Shield for +9 AC, quickened Dispel Magic, Quickened Protection from Evil that grants a +6 deflection mod to AC, and an ability to jack up your saves or AC even further if you know it's comming, since you got spell slots to blow.

Hate to break it to you, but the PrC (at least, the one in Complete Mage, starting on page 50) specifies that that particular ability only boosts armor or shield bonuses to AC from abjuration spells - so that Quickened Protection From Evil is only good for the +2. Despite the fact that the PrC ability actually mentions Mage Armor (the mention of which is removed in the Errata, at least, as of a few months ago when I downloaded and printed it to keep with my copy of the book), the PHB Shield spell is the only standard spell that the +AC ability actually affects. The Quicken ability will work on any abjuration of level X or lower (X=Ceiling{Abjurant Champion Level /2}) but for dropping five levels in the PrC as a Pure Caster, you end up with +2 or +3 BAB, an extra 15 hp (on average; a d4 averages 2.5 hp, a d10 averages 5.5 hp, difference of 3 hp per HD on average, and the PrC has 5 levels; if you roll lucky, you could end up with more, but then again, if you roll unlucky, you could end up with nothing but 1's on your shiny d10 HD, so....), +5 Shield AC more than the Shield spell will normally give you, Swift Abjurations (3rd level and below), the ability to burn spells for 1-round boosts, and double-duration on your abjurations ... and that's basically it.


It's really not bad. Not something to start out with, certainly, but definately a solid choice. A build like Sorc5/MotAO10/AbChamp5 is a solid build. Even better is Sorc5/MotAO7/AbChamp5/Archmage3. Lots of flexability and survivability.Also hard to squeeze in all the feats you'll need - for a Sorcerer, Mage of the Arcane Order requires three feats (Arcane Preparation, Cooperative Metamagic, and one other metamagic feat); which means to qualify after Sorcerer-5, you either need a Flaw, or you need a bonus feat from somewhere. Abjurant Champion requires one or two feats (depending on race), and Archmage requires three. If you're an Elf Sorcerer, you need three for MotAO, three for Archmage, and one for Abjurant Champion - that's seven feats; if you're Human, you get a bonus feat to qualify for Mage of the Arcane Order, but then you need to burn an extra feat on a Martial Weapon Proficiency ... uh oh, guess you can't take those Archmage levels until after 18th unless you're using Flaws or Retraining rules ... but that's a nitpick.

Don't get me wrong - it is stronger than normal Sorcerer levels; if it fits your flavor, go for it. But it's also not as strong as a lot of PrC's out there.

AKA_Bait
2008-03-26, 04:04 PM
Failed Will Save... Must Bow At Awesomeness of Guide... NOOOOOOOOOOO

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-26, 10:34 PM
So, . . . what does Escalating do?

Solo
2008-03-29, 04:59 PM
In absentia of updating, I'm making myself a deity.



Solo the Snarky

"Solo = Epic winnar who can single handedly annihilate /b/"
- Azerian Kelimon

"A little bit of Hubris goes a long way."
-Collin152

Stats:

Expert 3


Str: 13
Dex: 10
Con: 13
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

Hp: 16

Alignment: Chaotic Awesome

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Sarcasm]

Languages: English, Chinese

Skills:

Appraise Females: +5
Craft DnD character: +4
Craft Essay: +6
Craft Sarcasm: +5
Craft Winsome Post: +4 (not including the +2 circumstance bonus from Diplomacy and +2 again from Craft Sarcasm)
Diplomacy: +5
BS: +4
Knowledge Chemistry: +8
Knowledge Electronics +2
Knowledge Gaming: +5
Knowledge History: +8
Knowledge Mathematics: +8
Knowledge Physics: +4
Knowledge Pornography: +4
Perform Sarcasm: +9
Perform Piano: +2
Profession College Student: +7



Divine Rank 10


Salient Divine Abilities:

Singlehandedly Annihilate /b/

Divine Sarcasm

Waves of Sarcasm


Domains: Sarcasm, Cheese, Awesome

Cheese Domain

Granted Power: You are immune to cheese for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. Activation is a standard action. You may split this duration up into several periods totaling the same amount. You are not immune to beneficial cheese, only harmful cheese. This is a Supernatural ability.

Domain Spells:
1) Detect Cheese
2) Protection from Cheese
3) Dispel Cheese
4) Cone of Cheese
5) Transmute Brie to Gouda
6) Wall of Cheese
7) Finger of Swiss
8) Storm of Curds
9) Grate the Soul


Sarcasm Domain:

Granted Power: You may use your cutting tongue, rapier wit, and biting sarcasm to shatter someone's ego. As a standard action, you may give up a turning attempt to force a target to make a will save equal to 10 + half your caster level + your Wisdom modifier. On a failed save, the target is frightened for a number of rounds equal to half your caster level. If he succeeds, he is merely shaken. This is a Supernatural mind affecting ability. It only works on people who can understand your language and have an Int of higher than 3.

Domain Spells:

1. Produce Sarcasm - People are stunned by your sarcasm. Functions as Color Spray, but a sonic attack
2. Sculpt Sarcasm - Your sarcasm gets an attitude and starts hurting people. Functions as Spiritual Weapon, but deals Sonic damage
3. Wave of Sarcasm - All those caught withing a 60 ft cone must make a will save or be nauseated by your sarcasm
4. Sarcastic Smite - Your sarcasm delivers a b*tch slap to your enemies.Functions as Flame Strike, but sonic
5. Dispel Sarcasm - Counters sonic based attacks
6. Sarcastic Barrier - Your sarcasm prevents foes from passing. Blade Barrier, but Sonic damage instead of Fire damage
7. Word of Sarcasm - Your word of sarcasm is enough to shake the earth. Functions as Earthquake
8. Sarcastic Aura - You are so sarcastic that people around you are at danger of dying from an overdose of saracm. Functions as Implosion.
9. Mass Sarcasm


Awesome Domain:

Granted Power: You may be Awesome once per day. Activation is a standard action. For a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier, you gain a number of action points (here by referred to as Awesome Points) equal to your charisma modifier.

Domain Spells:

1. Awesome Touch - Works like Divine Favor, but touch range
2. Continual Awesome - Give you +2 inherent bonus to one stat for 24 hours.
3. Visage of Awesome, Lesser - Functions as Visage of the Deity, Lesser
4. Awesome Sauce - You conjure an ointment that functions like Restoration.
5. Bestow Awesome - Functions as Stoneskin
6. Visage of Awesome - Functions as Visage of the Deity
7. Major Awesome - You overpower an enemy with Awesome. Functions as Holy Word.
8. Polymorph Any Awesome - Functions as PaO
9. Visage of Awesome, Greater - Functions as Visage of the Deity, Greater.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-29, 05:03 PM
I see a lot of sentences end with "But definately not as good as some of the ones out there."

Can someone point me to these?

Solo
2008-03-29, 05:05 PM
I see a lot of sentences end with "But definately not as good as some of the ones out there."

Can someone point me to these?

Point out the sentences, please.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-29, 05:11 PM
Point out the sentences, please.

Oh, I wasn't referring to your guide. Still, you'll note both of Jack Smith's posts on this page say that, and if I'm not mad I seem to also recall more on the other pages. Maybe its just Jack who keeps saying it. Regardless, I would appreciate a nice solid prestige. Alienist looks good except I can't use the flavor of it with my current sorc, and charisma loss is bad.

Solo
2008-03-29, 05:17 PM
Oh, I wasn't referring to your guide. Still, you'll note both of Jack Smith's posts on this page say that, and if I'm not mad I seem to also recall more on the other pages. Maybe its just Jack who keeps saying it. Regardless, I would appreciate a nice solid prestige. Alienist looks good except I can't use the flavor of it with my current sorc, and charisma loss is bad.

Fatespinner and Mage of the Arcane Order are both great.

Fatespinner basically requires 5 skill points to enter, while Mage of the Arcane Order requires 2 useless feats and a metamagic feat to get in, but pays you back 2 metamagic feats later on.




The greatest sorcerer prestige class of all, however, is Dragon Disciple. I suggest you take all ten levels of it ASAP.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-29, 05:19 PM
Fatespinner and Mage of the Arcane Order are both great.

Fatespinner basically requires 5 skill points to enter, while Mage of the Arcane Order requires 2 useless feats and a metamagic feat to get in, but pays you back 2 metamagic feats later on.




The greatest sorcerer prestige class of all, however, is Dragon Disciple. I suggest you take all ten levels of it ASAP.

I have nearly all the books, but havn't been able to read them all just yet. If you could kindly point me to the correct source material?

Solo
2008-03-29, 05:22 PM
Both Fatespinner and MotAO are from the Complete Arcane.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-29, 05:33 PM
Wait.. Dragon Disciple only gives a handful of bonus spells. Not proper "+1 to spellcasting as per previous class" so, assuming non-epic level, if I want to continue I'll have to never cast spells above 5th level.

Fatespinner looks nice though. It seems to have virtually no drawbacks and some very nice abilities.

Arcane order also looks very nice. Any spell, any time, just make sure you spend a few spell slots later. Can I call metamagicked spells? Can I cast QUICKENED called spells!?

Arbitrarity
2008-03-29, 06:41 PM
I detect Solo is pulling your leg with Dragon Disciple. It violates rules...1 and 6? of practical optimization.

Overlord
2008-03-29, 06:41 PM
Wait.. Dragon Disciple only gives a handful of bonus spells. Not proper "+1 to spellcasting as per previous class" so, assuming non-epic level, if I want to continue I'll have to never cast spells above 5th level.

Solo was being facetious with the Dragon Disciple recommendation. It's not a particularly good class for most characters, especially not full casters. It can be quite good for fighter types who only need a single level of Hexblade to qualify. But for full casters, it's horrible.

He said it "for the lulz," and I laughed. So, I'd say mission accomplished.



Fatespinner looks nice though. It seems to have virtually no drawbacks and some very nice abilities.

It doesn't have any drawbacks, really. That's the thing with sorcerers: any class that has full casting and extra abilities is automatically an improvement over sticking with plain Sorcerer--the familiar just isn't important to a Sorcerer.


Arcane order also looks very nice. Any spell, any time, just make sure you spend a few spell slots later. Can I call metamagicked spells? Can I cast QUICKENED called spells!?
I'm not sure on that one. I'm sure there's errata on that point somewhere....

Collin152
2008-03-29, 07:46 PM
In absentia of updating, I'm making myself a deity.



Solo the Snarky

"A little bit of Hubris goes a long way."
-Collin152


Oh Solo that art in America, hallowed be thy avatar. Thy godly realm come, thy will be awesome.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-29, 09:35 PM
Wait.. Dragon Disciple only gives a handful of bonus spells. Not proper "+1 to spellcasting as per previous class" so, assuming non-epic level, if I want to continue I'll have to never cast spells above 5th level.

That's one of the basics of checking a PrC's power level, yes - full casting progression.


Fatespinner looks nice though. It seems to have virtually no drawbacks and some very nice abilities.

Yes - the ability to upgrade your spell save DC is very handy.


Arcane order also looks very nice. Any spell, any time, just make sure you spend a few spell slots later. Can I call metamagicked spells? Can I cast QUICKENED called spells!?
Not specified in the PrC - check with your DM.

Edit:
Oh, and Nice PrC's come in different flavors.

Mage of The Arcane Order helps with a Sorcerer's lack of flexibility with the ability to pick spells up as needed (flexibility nice).

Fatespinner's big bonus is the dice control.

The Incantatrix PrC grants really cheap metamagic.

The Archmage PrC grants some rather nifty abilities (Arcane Reach, Energy Substitution, and Mastery of Shaping top the list for a Sorcerer).

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-30, 02:33 PM
Incantatrix is indeed one of the most powerful for a Sorcerer, because they don't have to get limited in which school they get their spells from. *SOME* have commented that 'it just means you suck harder because the whole class has uses +int mod times and requires spellcraft checks'. To which, I respond that Spellcraft is still a Sorcerer skill known, and there's nothing saying a Sorcerer *can't* have a resonabally high Int score. Besides, it's stupidly easy to obtain/make a +10 to spellcraft checks item to ensure you make all those nearly impossible spellcraft checks to Persist/Empower/Maximize/whatever your spells.

Sadly, I don't have the book that particular PrC is in, so I wouldn't be able to say much more about it other than it is broken the same way that the Hulking Hurler is, but not quite as bad as Pun-Pun.

Solo
2008-03-30, 02:41 PM
Just remember that prestige classes such as Archmage can be very feat intensive, so keep that in mind.

Talk to your DM and see if he'll houserule a few bonus feats in for the poor lil' sorcerer. Might help things.

And upon further reflection, Arcane preparation isn't too sucky. At least with it, you can prepare metamagic spells and cast them without using a full round action. Not too bad.

Incantrix can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803)

Requires any metamagic feat and Iron Will as pre-requisite feats.

You'll need 8 ranks of Knowledge (the Planes), which can be hard to achieve, though. (Anyone know how to get that out of the way quickly? My calculations show that you'll need to be level 12 to be able to cross class it.)

Kurald Galain
2008-03-30, 02:57 PM
You'll need 8 ranks of Knowledge (the Planes), which can be hard to achieve, though. (Anyone know how to get that out of the way quickly? My calculations show that you'll need to be level 12 to be able to cross class it.)

I'd suggest taking a level in Ruathar, Drow Paragon (where applicable), or Loremaster (though the latter is iffy on the prereqs).

(edit) Mage of the Arcane Order could also work, if you can convince your DM that the Arcane Prep feat works for its prereq. A better solution is Mindbender, which does require some cross-class skills, but only four ranks in them. Wild Mage also does the trick, but requires another undesirable feat, and gives the possibly-undesirable caster level variation. And Unseen Seer, if you were planning on taking a rogue level anyway.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-30, 03:33 PM
You'll need 8 ranks of Knowledge (the Planes), which can be hard to achieve, though. (Anyone know how to get that out of the way quickly? My calculations show that you'll need to be level 12 to be able to cross class it.)Level 13, to take your first level of the PrC at 14th, for fully cross-classing it, actually - max ranks for skill is 15 at level 12, and half of that is 7.5 - by default, D&D rounds down, not up.

Basically, you need to find a way to make it a class skill. A one-level dip in Rogue will handle it if your Intelligence is 10 or better (8 or better, for a human). Most Arcane Full Caster PrC's include a Knoweledge or two on their list of class skills; hit one with Knoweledge(The Planes) for a few levels, and you're covered.

Skimming through Complete Arcane, grabbing just PrC's that don't initially lose out on spell advancement, require multiclasssing, or require more Cross-Class ranks than does the one you're going for:
Elemental Savant (Pure Sorcerer can qualify at 6th to take the PrC at 7th; loses advancement at 5th and 10th).
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (Pure Sorcerer can qualify at 9th to take the PrC at 10th).
Mage of the Arcane Order (Pure Sorcerer can qualify at 5th (if human - requires 3 feats to pull off) to take the first level at 6th).
Mindbender (can qualify at 5th to take it at 6th, but you'll need a LOT of skill points ore Able Learner; full advancement on odd levels, so you only want one level of this one).
Wild Mage (Pure Sorcerer can qualify at 5th to take it at 6th, requires a little investment in cross-class skills).

Frosty
2008-03-30, 03:43 PM
That Incantatrix is 3.0 It is fairly different from the 3.5 Incantatrix.

Solo
2008-03-30, 03:49 PM
Hmm... true. Did I link to the 3.0 version, or the 3.5 version?

Jack_Simth
2008-03-30, 03:51 PM
Hmm... true. Did I link to the 3.0 version, or the 3.5 version?

3.0 - date on the page is 2001, 3.5 was 2003.

Edit: and the 3.5 version doesn't require Knoweledge(The Planes). Huh.

Solo
2008-03-30, 03:52 PM
*grins slyly* Don't tell my DMs that.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-30, 03:57 PM
*grins slyly* Don't tell my DMs that.

The 3.5 version is actually easier to get into and in many ways better.
Edit: Amend that - the 3.5 version is better in terms of casting ability for the party; the 3.0 version is mostly better for a single individual.

Frosty
2008-03-30, 03:58 PM
3.5 requires you to lose access to an entire school that is not abjuration. It hurts sorcerers too but I guess they can give up Enchantment or Evocation or something.

Solo
2008-03-30, 03:59 PM
3.5 requires you to lose access to an entire school that is not abjuration. It hurts sorcerers too but I guess they can give up Enchantment or Evocation or something.

According to the Ozymandias spell list, one could do quite well without Evocation at later levels.

Off with it, I say.



The 3.5 version is actually easier to get into and in many ways better.

Wait.... the 3.5 one is the more broken one?

So much for things getting better as time goes on...

Frosty
2008-03-30, 04:03 PM
3.5 makes it more party friendly. You can now metamagic up your allies' spells for free if you cna make the insane Spellcraft DC checks. On the offensive side, you can steal on-going spells from your enemy and place it under your control (such as Summon Monster spells or Image spells). And, you get 4 instead of 3 bonus metamagic feats. You can also metamagic up some existing spell effects. Oh look! a Wall of force. It's useful, let me Extend it.

Downside? Improved Metamagic got pushed back to 10th level as a capstone ability.

Overlord
2008-03-30, 04:04 PM
Wait.... the 3.5 one is the more broken one?

So much for things getting better as time goes on...

Well, I guess in that sense, it has gotten better. :smallwink:

Solo
2008-03-30, 04:06 PM
Downside? Improved Metamagic got pushed back to 10th level as a capstone ability.

Making people take 10 levels of Incantrix is a downside? :smalltongue:

Frosty
2008-03-30, 04:07 PM
Oops, I for got the quotes around "downside." Forgive me :smalltongue:

Jack_Simth
2008-03-30, 04:10 PM
Wait.... the 3.5 one is the more broken one?

So much for things getting better as time goes on...
The 3.0 version has a lot of scattered abilities with little real focus - they're very handy ones, though, when they come up.

The 3.5 version is very magic-centric; if you've got other casters in the party, they're VERY handy; if you don't they're merely very handy. Likewise, if you're facing a lot of casters, they're VERY handy. If you're facing a moderate number of casters, they're only very handy.

The 3.5 one is definitely stronger, though.

Frosty
2008-03-30, 04:15 PM
So their options are Strong if not many other casters and OMGZORS if many other casters?

Jack_Simth
2008-03-30, 04:21 PM
So their options are Strong if not many other casters and OMGZORS if many other casters?Pretty much, yeah.

mostlyharmful
2008-03-30, 04:22 PM
So their options are Strong if not many other casters and OMGZORS if many other casters?

They're full casters, they're always going to be strong. But when you've got a fullcaster that can steal all the BBEGs kewl powerz it gets ridiculous. When a high level caster faces off with an adventuring group their actions are so few compared to who they're fighting that the magic they throw around has to be powerful to be a challenge... and then the cheater in the pointy hat swipes it rendering the whole challenge moot:smallfrown:

This is one of those PrCs I ban at the outset, just because it's soooo overpowered it walks through CR appropriate encounters on its own and leaves the rest of the team kicking their heels and holding the luggedge

Reinboom
2008-03-30, 04:58 PM
Your spell list formatting annoyed me.

Please use this, to make it more readable.

9

Dominate Monster—While some may have an issue mind controlling other sentient beings, I submit that if they are doing some thing truly wicked, a brief spell as my personal servant followed by a Helm of Opposed Alignments should solve the problem. A redeemed person is, after all, more useful to society than a dead one. That being said, this does not work on many creatures (read: undead), nor ones with the proper warding (Protection from X, Mind Blank), so perhaps it is not the best choice for this category.

Prismatic Sphere—This spell is simply fabulous.

Shades—These sort of illusion spells effectively allow you to know several lower level spells for the price of one, as well as offering you endless amounts of fun with such great spells as Leomund’s Luxurious Love Shack.

Time Stop—With a bit of a mind flip, you're there in the time slip, and nothing can ever be the same, for you're spaced out on sensation, like you're under sedation. But listen closely (not for very much longer), I've got to keep control.
Somatic components: It's just a jump to the left, and then a step to the right. With your hands on your hips you bring your knees in tight. But it's the pelvic thrust that really drives you insane; let's do the Time Warp again!

Astral Projection—Send in the clones! Pricy, but it lets you duplicate of yourself, gear included, and then travel back to the Material Plane (or Plane Shifting back). Caution: Never leave your comatose body in the possession of a Succubus, even if you did use a Helm of Opposed Alignments on her.

Meteor Swarm—Finish him!

Wail of the Banshee—Dalron singing in the shower will suffice nicely.

Weird—Mind Crush! (Not really... giving your opponent two chances to save is bad.)

Wish—Say what you wish, whatever it be, it's yours true dish, just pay up some XP.

Gate—Great spell for interplanar travel. Superb spell for running away from your mother in law.

Shapechange—You are everything, ever. Warning: Not for the lactose intolerant.

Imprisonment—You are the weakest link, goodbye!

Foresight—A powerful Spidey-sense that is guaranteed to foil any surprise attack and every surprise birthday party.

Disjunction—A magical EMP (ExterminatusMagic Pulse) that fries everything, including your potential loot. Only use if you don't plan on salvaging from the broken bodies of your enemies. Perhaps as a scroll...

8

Greater Prying Eyes—Scouts with True Seeing are always useful.


Greater Shadow Evocation—Like Shades, it allows you to make up for your limited spells known. Try using it to mimic Leomund’s Tiny Hut while traveling or Contingency if you’re paranoid.

Prismatic Wall—The great headmaster of the Arcane Institute said it best: “this wall does BAD things to people. BAD things.”

Sunburst—Well, it is one way for the sorcerer to take out undead, and then some. It does lend a certain flair to a sorcerer’s repertoire. Great for making a flashy entrance at a social gathering.

Bigby’s Clenched Fist—Smack that bitch up.

Mind Blank—It saves you from the humiliation of failing to resist a Dominate Person and becoming the personal slave to some Drow matron. Some people had to learn this lesson the hard way.

Horrid Wilting—Dalron's favorite mass removal/gardening spell.

Otto’s Irresistible Dance—Stop! Its hammer time! No save, just suck.

Polymorph Any Object—You can now polymorph things into cheese.

7

Spell Turning—It helps you avoid getting killed by a Finger of Death to the face, if your friendly neighborhood cleric has neglected to cast Death Ward on you. A common sport my freshman year in the Arcane Institute was for two aspiring Archmages to turn up their Spell Turnings, cast Magic Missile at each other, and create a resonance effect. First to get back from the Astral Plane received beer and women. Loser had to foot the bill.

Arcane Sight, Greater—It is generally regarded as a good thing to know if the person you will be casting spells on today has Spell Turning on or not. Also, useful for qualification for Archmage, as those old geezers on the Archmage’s Council will want to see ‘diversity’ amongst the schools of magic in your spell list.

Ethereal Jaunt—In another dimension, with voyeuristic intention, well secluded, I see all!

Limited Wish—For a small price, you can make up for one important spell you do not know. Priceless.

Mass Hold Person—Stop in the name of love, baby!

Insanity—This is MADNESS!!!

Bigby’s Grasping Hand—provides cover, rushes, and gropes.

Forcecage—One of the greatest joys in life is to cast Forcecage on a dual lance wielding mounted charger, rendering his entire training up to this point moot. Expensive to cast, though. You’d probably be better off casting Fly on yourself and taunting him from above.

Prismatic Spray—Taste the rainbow, bitch.

Delayed Blast Fireball—Burn everything. Burn it to the ground. There is nothing quite like seeing five of these go off at one time.

Simulacrum—Materials for cloning: 2000 gp
XP cost for cloning: 2000 XP
Having a threesome consisting of only you and your wife?
Priceless

Finger of Death—Avada Kerdava! Bonus points if you guess which finger it is.

Maze—Best way to amaze a Feebleminded enemy.

Reverse Gravity—My hair gives me the power to defy gravity.

6

Disintegrate—as often said amongst the students of the Arcane Institute, “handy for getting obstacles, objects, and people out of the way.”

Flesh to Stone—Medusafying.

Dispel Magic, Greater—useful for getting nasty effects out of the way, like when you fail to resist a Dominate Person with your name on it and are forced to wait several months for your friends to rescue you from a Drow stronghold and return you to your right mind.

Shadow Walk—The perfect way to send people to the Shadow Realm. Great way to transverse across time and space for cheap. Best used if you travel extensively and regularly, otherwise Limited Wish may be better.

Bigby’s Forceful Hand—Talk to the hand!

True Seeing—You see all. Caution: expensive material component. Best left to wizards who can prepare it on a situational basis. Greater Prying Eyes wins out over this for me.

Eyebite—Behold the Evil Eye, of Poogly Pie.

Greater Heroism—Are you a bad enough dude to be the hero?

5

Feeblemind—cast it on other magic users to humiliate them, or cast on your friendly meat shield to make him smarter. (I kid, Gragthor, I kid.)

Wall of Force—absolutely fantastic spell. I have used it to trap monsters (with the powers of geometry), protect myself inside an Antimagic Field, and more. It may very well save your life, and help you end someone else’s.

Telekinesis—can be used to manipulate things from far away, trip, disarm, pin down, or bull rush opponents (preferably into a Prismatic Sphere), and scratch those hard to reach places on your back.

Persistent Image—Illusions are good and useful. Ever wanted to get out of dinner with your mother in law? Here you go!

Overland Flight—What’s that in the sky? Is it a bird? Is it a skyship? No, it’s a flying mage raining magical death down on you from above!

Dominate Person—Best used on enemies to make them fight each other, or on your girlfriend. And then, only if she’s into that kind of thing.

Hold Monster—Stupefy!

Cloudkill—If you ever face off against hoards of minions, by all means invite them to pull your finger.

Baleful Polymorph—turn your enemies into pets and make them perform tricks for your amusement.
Contact Other Plane: Great spell… but are you going to use it every day? Nerd Wizard work.

4

Enervation—yes, it’s channeling the blackest of energies to cripple an opponent, making it an evil act. That being said, it is also a very effective spell. Learn it and let the Student Honor Council debate the ethics of using it. Empower for greater effect only if you can suppress the urge to spout out villainous laughter as you do so.

Greater Invisibility—Being unseen in the presence of a great and powerful monster is good. Nowadays, however, most of the opponents I face have ways to see through or negate Invisibility, so I usually spend it in attempts to avoid unwelcome relatives.

Resilient Sphere—It protects and traps pretty much any one creature, even incorporeal or ethereal ones. No need to call ghost busters to handle your focused, non-terminal repeating phantasms anymore.

Black Tentacles—In my younger days, I once managed to restrain a succubus with this spell. It proved effective, though not in the manner I was expecting.


Dimension Door—To quote the headmaster, “Great for getting you out of trouble—or into it.”

Solid Fog—To quote the headmaster again, “No save, just suck.”

Scrying—A great information gathering spell, but no something you will use all the time. Wizard work. That being said, it is a very way of viewing the inner workings of the women’s shower.

Phantasmal Killer—Super special awesome attack! (Or at least it would be if your opponent didn't get two chances to save for it. marginal at worst, Rogue killer at best.)

Charm Monster—Great for gathered information, incapacitating the enemy, making friends, and bending people to your will, though a bottle of dwarven fire whisky and a few glasses has about the same effect.

Confusion—Torment!

Polymorph—Please don't.

3

Fly—Up, up, up and away!

Phantom Steed—Hail Shadowfax, king of horses, now with wings.

Major Image—One student at the Arcane Institute had a tenancy to surprise intruders to his dorm by summoning an illusory barbed wire cage around them. Since no one would actually dare to interact with the illusion to determine if it was real or not, it left them in a rather prickly predicament.

Deeper Slumber—Arcane focus: your professor’s lecture.

Heroism—My voice knows kung fu.

Hold Person—When one of the nobles at my local bar started giving gave me a hard time for getting all the ladies, I proceeded to stunned him, lift his robes over his head, and then walked away. No more was necessary.

Shrink Item—Shrinking large things and carrying them in your pocket does have uses. I remember that I was once fighting this witch whom I killed her by flying up in the air, invisible, and then dropping a shrunken house onto her, dismissing the spell while the house was en route to the ground.

Slow—Stopping things from reaching your is always a plus. It also works on undead, as it is not a mind- affecting spell. Best use, though, is at sporting competitions.

Haste—Best used on your own team at sporting competitions.

Stinking Cloud—Not only does this cripple wizards and prevent them from casting spells, but has many applications in the realm of practical jokes. As a freshman at the Institute of Arcane Studies, there was a brief period where you could not trust the food at the dining hall because some anonymous student would find a way of slipping Beans of Stinking Cloud into the day’s meals.

Explosive Runes—they make a great impromptu booby trap, way of paying a check with an unpleasant restaurant or shopkeeper, and ensuring that your letter self destructs after it is read.
Note: make sure that the recipient can survive before mailing the letter.

Dispel Magic—A lifesaver if you need to clear hallways of Stinking Clouds.

Protection from Energy—Alas, poor Dalron’s greatest foe.

Fireball—Another of Dalron’s mainstays, this is a respectable spell for troubleshooting at long distances. Solving problems from far away is generally regarded as a good thing.

Ray of Exhaustion—Jock-b-gone

Vampiric Touch—All your health is belong to me.

Wind Wall—Take pride in rendering Elfy McElf, the Elvish archer utterly obsolete.

2

Hideous Laughter—Hey, you wanna hear a joke?

Resistance to Energy—Alas, poor Dalron’s second greatest foe.

Alter Self—not only does this allow you to disguise yourself, but you can pretend to be of a different species. Gaining the armor of a Troglodyte without its stench is never a bad thing.
Among its other uses is disguising yourself as an old lady and letting your purse be snatched by thieves, while it contains a few notes worth of Explosive Runes.

Bull’s Strength, Bear’s Endurance, Cat’s Grace—My voice gives me super strength!

Darkness—Provides concealment, DR10/Magic Missile.

Blindness/Deafness—Kaiden, surprisingly enough, never took this spell, preferring to walk around showing his enemies 4chan.

Shatter—Have you ever seen a jerk who bullied you as a kid buy an obscenely expensive ring to present to his bride at their wedding, only to have it shatter mysteriously at the altar? Fun times, fun times.

Gust of Wind—It will blow you away.

Magic Mouth—No, not that kind.
Silence -

Invisibility—a great spell until Greater Invisibility is on the table, as it allows you to go to places you normally couldn’t go, such as the women’s shower.

Mirror Image—Greetings, Mr. Anderson. Today, you’ll be fighting me. Me, me, me, me, me.

Hypnotic Pattern—Bards? Who needs bards?

Minor Image—The cake is a lie!

Detect Thougths—Ah, your thoughts betray you.

See Invisibility—It helps detect peeping toms in showers, if nothing else.

Glitterdust—Just because you can see invisible things doesn’t mean others can. Also blinds whatever gets hit by it. As some of us have found out the hard way, invisibly sneaking into a shower containing sorceresses who know both spells is not a good idea.

Web—Spider web, spider web, does whatever a spider can. Spins a web, any size, catches thieves just like flies. Here comes the spider web.

Acid Arrow—A long ranged acid spell that deals damage over time and bypasses spell resistance. Handy, but I’ve never found a use for it, except in special circumstances. I will note though that you can use it to hit others from faaaaar, which means you are less likely to be poked with a pointy stick.

Scorching Ray—Dalron’s favorite spell when we were rooming together in the Junior Academy for Arcane Studies, and a powerful damage dealing spell, for the level, anyways. It is a great way to roast troll flesh, which doesn’t actually taste half bad with a little Prestidigitation thrown on for flavor.

1

Animate Rope—Kinky.

Tenser’s Floating Disk—Best used for practical jokes involving staircases. If Tenser was alive today, I’d use it on him for creating this sad excuse of a spell.

Mount—It’s a mount. You ride it to places. You can also sell it and run off with the money before the buyer realizes he’s been had. Unless you want to major in either swindling or liveries, pass.

Identify—You identify magic items for a price. If that’s your thing, go for it. If not, leave it to the nerds.

Sleep—The perfect antidote for when you can’t sleep due to being poked at with pointy sticks.

Color Spray—Blind them with magic!

Silent Image—Gives you more time to run from angry spouses.

Chill Touch—“I get to touch you and weaken you. You get to hit me with a huge hunk of metal.” Pass.

Expeditious Retreat—Run away! Run away!

True Strike—Ah yes. Learn to use the Force.

Magic Missile—I keep it around for those pesky “class five roaming vapors” whom I can never quite Disintegrate properly.

Shocking Grasp—My honorable enemy and worthy opponent, let us shake on it!


Grease—Great for tripping up jocks, or enemies charging up a staircase at you—not that the two are mutually exclusive. Also, useful for lubrication.

Shield, Mage Armor—No one will suspect the man in ordinary clothing to be abnormally hard to hit!

Charm Person—“You don’t need to see our identification.”

Enlarge Person—Oh no! Growth hormones! Best pawned off on the cleric or wizard, as it will not likely need multiple castings of per day.

Ray of Enfeeblement—Jock-b-ware

0

Touch of Fatigue—While in the Junior Academy, Dalron sparred with Saal and cast this on Saal to make him tired. Saal responded by knocking Dalron lights out with an axe. I leave the lesson to be learned to you.

Prestidigitation—It cooks, it cleans, it gets crumbs out of your Cloak of Charisma.

Detect Magic—It detects magic. Yeah.

Read Magic—It allows you to read magic. Yeah.

Detect Poison—You try surviving at the Academy cafeteria without it.

Message—Pretending that you’re someone’s conscience never gets old.

Ghost Sound—Provides a nice, ambient "Bow chicka bow wow" for your Luxurious Love Shack.

Arcane Mark—In essence, magical graffiti. Leave it on the foreheads of your enemies and flings: "A Wizard Did It".

Daze—It is a stunning spell.

Resistance—The only way to survive cafeteria food.

Light—And behold, there was light!

Mending—This spell is all you need to woo the ladies. Keep their clothing trim, yours looking sharp, and your prophylactics re-usable.

Solo
2008-03-30, 05:11 PM
Why thank you for re-formatting them.

I'll add it right away.

Talic
2008-03-30, 05:14 PM
Bear in mind, solo, you lose Wall of Force if you give up Evocation, putting some strain on your Shadow Evocation spell. It's still effective, still playable, but pushes you in the direction of "less wiggle room"

Solo
2008-03-30, 05:20 PM
Bear in mind, solo, you lose Wall of Force if you give up Evocation, putting some strain on your Shadow Evocation spell. It's still effective, still playable, but pushes you in the direction of "less wiggle room"
Hmm... true. Less Wall of Awesome. Of course, not everyone plays their sorcerer that way, so it is still viable.

While Wall of force is a great spell, it's not the only great 5th level spell by any means. A replacement can and will be found.

Talic
2008-03-30, 05:26 PM
Hmm... true. Less Wall of Awesome. Of course, not everyone plays their sorcerer that way, so it is still viable.

While Wall of force is a great spell, it's not the only great 5th level spell by any means. A replacement can and will be found.

True. But I can't think of any spell below level 7 that says, "NONE SHALL PASS", so effectively.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-30, 05:27 PM
Surely there is a conjuration spell?

What about a Wall of Stone?

Talic
2008-03-30, 05:29 PM
Surely there is a conjuration spell?

What about a Wall of Stone?

Rock breaks, and is more vulnerable to BOOM.

Solo
2008-03-30, 05:30 PM
True. But I can't think of any spell below level 7 that says, "NONE SHALL PASS", so effectively.

Haven't you heard? Wall of Force is not so good, as it can be countered by Rings of Blinking and Rods of Cancellation, which are so plentiful as to render it useless.


I would be more than happy to give up such a worthless spell for the ability to metamagic things to death.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-30, 05:33 PM
Bear in mind, solo, you lose Wall of Force if you give up Evocation, putting some strain on your Shadow Evocation spell. It's still effective, still playable, but pushes you in the direction of "less wiggle room"

Don't forget Contingency, Wind Wall, and Force Cage - all Evocation.

Talic
2008-03-30, 05:33 PM
Haven't you heard? Wall of Force is not so good, as it can be countered by Rings of Blinking and Rods of Cancellation, which are so plentiful as to render it useless.


I would be more than happy to give up such a worthless spell for the ability to metamagic things to death.

Was that the same source that would UMD the scroll of Disintigrate?

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-30, 05:51 PM
What happens if you pin an enemy against the wall, he casts Wall of force, and then you widen it? Can you smoosh him with his own magic that you arn't allowed to use?

Frosty
2008-03-30, 06:47 PM
Umm...Solid Fog is an effective "You don't pass" spell.

Talic
2008-03-30, 07:05 PM
Umm...Solid Fog is an effective "You don't pass" spell.

It's a "You may pass slowly" spell.

Very good, yes. But not as good as Wall of force, IMO.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-30, 07:08 PM
Umm...Solid Fog is an effective "You don't pass" spell.
More like a "slow down there" spell. Everyone inside is treated as though they had a move of five feet - and as it's only a 20 foot spread, this means that the Run action can get you out in a round, or through in two. Additionally, there's no targeting anything inside, except by way of non-discriminating area attacks.

Frosty
2008-03-30, 07:11 PM
I treat it slightly differently. you can only move 5 feet no matter what inside a solid fog. No run action allowed.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-30, 07:14 PM
I treat it slightly differently. you can only move 5 feet no matter what inside a solid fog. No run action allowed.


Indeed.


the solid fog is so thick that any creature attempting to move through it progresses at a speed of 5 feet

Gee. A speed of 5 feet, not a BASE speed of five feet.

Enlong
2008-03-30, 09:14 PM
If we're discussing PRCs, might I mention the Alienist? Full casting, Familiar progression (not something most classes give you), DR and Energy Resistance to you and your familiar, improved scaryness, boosted summons, and then there is the fact that the last 5 levels give you extra slots for a casting of a Summon Monster spell.

Solo
2008-03-30, 09:20 PM
It's been mentioned.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-30, 09:28 PM
Don't forget Contingency, Wind Wall, and Force Cage - all Evocation.

Forcecage: Costs 1500 a shot, if you are casting it frequently enough to actually want it as a spell known, you're going to run out of cash quick

Wind Wall, low level spell and you'll already have it or not as your choice dictates by the time you enter Incantatrix

Contingency: is indeed an awsome spell.

There are some spells you can't get
For these, there is Shadow Evocation, Greater.

Seriously, save that much gold every time you drop a Forcecage, and can Contingency yourself. And drop walls of force, if that's your inclination. Personally, I tend to stick to SE:G Forcecages.

Reptilius
2008-04-02, 08:21 PM
Amusing and useful. The in-character writing was highly entertaining. I should keep this in mind for my next sorc. The Being Batman guide was helpful, but didn't quite cut it for a spontaneous caster.

Solo
2008-04-13, 11:58 PM
Collin152: I'm in the market for new gods. As a deity, what do you have to offer?
Solo: Insolent mortal! You dare speak to a god of what he has to offer you? Ask not what your god can do for you, but of what you can do for your god!

Just a little update for you folks interested in my quest for godhood.

Talic
2008-04-14, 12:41 AM
Yeah, yeah yeah. I got that groveling part. But, if I'm going to be layin' down my best kowtowing to an almighty being, I need to make sure there's benefits. 401(k), dental, health care, that sorta thing. After all, the pantheon is a big place, and there's a lot of gods looking for followers.

Let's start with the plane. What are your planar traits? If I die fanatically in your service, what kinda afterlife am I gonna be having here? Are we talking 4 score of inexperienced women, or a fiery torment of agony and weeping?

Solo
2008-04-14, 12:53 AM
Let's start with the plane. What are your planar traits? If I die fanatically in your service, what kinda afterlife am I gonna be having here? Are we talking 4 score of inexperienced women, or a fiery torment of agony and weeping?

Planar Traits: Awesome

Women: LG Succubi. Solo's Superior Sex Shields provided free of charge.

There will be every effort made to arrange for frequent visits and/or a transfer for your other lover/s if desired, or vice versa if possible.

Threesomes encouraged.

Firey Torment: Optional, only if you're into that kind of thing.


Benefits: Get to collect and harvest Awesome for personal use. May sharpen tongue on Whetstone of Sarcasm (Major Artifact).

Will get a condo in the upper Hive.

Citizens may cast magic, enter into combat, and explore safely in the northern reaches and deep underground.

Taverns and dark mysterious employers (complete with large yellow explanation marks over their heads for easy identification) provided.

"Deaths" are merely temporary, as souls will travel to the nearest respawn points to try again, provided you have enough coins.

Being as the overlord of the realm is busy, if someone were to escape from the afterlife to go back to the Mortal Coil, he probably wouldn't notice. Much.

Talic
2008-04-14, 12:57 AM
Is this possible? How can such a place be?

Solo
2008-04-14, 12:59 AM
Is this possible? How can such a place be?

Gygax opposed it.


Gygax is no more.


Next question?

Talic
2008-04-14, 01:01 AM
This all seems to be moving so quickly. Is it too soon for such a place?

Solo
2008-04-14, 01:09 AM
Bah!

It is not my fault that you experience time in a linear fashion.

Time is a gem with many facets, but mortals insist on viewing them one at a time, preventing them from seeing the greater picture; All that has ever occurred, is occurring, and will ever occur is concurrent.

The best I can say is it is too soon, and yet the right time, and yet far too late.

Talic
2008-04-14, 01:15 AM
So, Gygax is no more, and long gone, and yet still opposed?

Solo
2008-04-14, 01:16 AM
Yes.

You may begin rejoicing at any second.

Talic
2008-04-14, 01:21 AM
I do believe, that the current pantheon is in trouble.

My server in Solo's afterlife shall be Dragonblight.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-14, 06:01 AM
Bah!

It is not my fault that you experience time in a linear fashion.

Time is a gem with many facets, but mortals insist on viewing them one at a time, preventing them from seeing the greater picture; All that has ever occurred, is occurring, and will ever occur is concurrent.

The best I can say is it is too soon, and yet the right time, and yet far too late.

Actually, time is like a great big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey Stuff


I do believe, that the current pantheon is in trouble.

My server in Solo's afterlife shall be Dragonblight.

Wait... Dragonblight? Thats MY old server! I think I may still have a gnome rogue floating around there. I dunno. How long until they delete characters?

valadil
2008-04-14, 09:07 AM
Umm...Solid Fog is an effective "You don't pass" spell.

Solid Fog is trumped by Freedom of Movement. Wall of Force isn't. At least the way my groups handle things.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 10:20 AM
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but if we are going to enact our plan to replace the Greyhawk pantheon shouldn't we do it in full force?

Kurald Galain
2008-04-14, 11:46 AM
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but if we are going to enact our plan to replace the Greyhawk pantheon shouldn't we do it in full force?

Dibs on the "art & music" portfolio :smallwink:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 11:52 AM
Dibs on the "art & music" portfolio :smallwink:

I don't think you are an official part of the conspiracy, but you know, whatever.

Solo
2008-04-14, 12:18 PM
Don't tell me you don't know about the international dibs system!

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-14, 06:10 PM
Wait, before we declare solo a god...

What do the holy uniforms look like? I demand a preponderance of hats!

Overlord
2008-04-14, 06:31 PM
Wait, before we declare solo a god...

What do the holy uniforms look like? I demand a preponderance of hats!

Well, in accordance with his avatar: monocles.

I believe anyone who's read enough of 8-Bit Theatre should get the reference. Of course, I haven't read the 200 or so most recent strips, but still.... :smallwink:

Solo
2008-04-14, 06:34 PM
Wait, before we declare solo a god...

What do the holy uniforms look like? I demand a preponderance of hats!

Yellow cloth hats, with stylish blue robes.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-14, 06:38 PM
Will we be allowed to wear the severed heads of our enemies? If so count me in for the diefic mamba.

Solo
2008-04-14, 06:40 PM
Will we be allowed to wear the severed heads of our enemies? If so count me in for the diefic mamba.

Why stop at just heads?

mostlyharmful
2008-04-14, 06:42 PM
Why stop at just heads?

I've got to save something for the gumbo. Plus if I use the whole skeleton how do I build the throne?:smallconfused:

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-14, 07:45 PM
Hmm... I guess I can roll with it. Whose village do I bury to get in?

Solo
2008-04-15, 01:00 AM
Hmm... I guess I can roll with it. Whose village do I bury to get in?

We'll start in North Korea and Purge our way around.



I've got to save something for the gumbo. Plus if I use the whole skeleton how do I build the throne?:smallconfused:

Skulls for the Skull Throne, of course!

Talic
2008-04-15, 01:26 AM
I've got dibs on Lawful Neutral. My holy symbol shall be the mighty badger, in accordance with my debating style.

Khanderas
2008-04-15, 07:48 AM
I don't think you are an official part of the conspiracy, but you know, whatever.
If a conspiracy becomes official, the police is on its way to knock down your door and arrest the insurgents.
Or in the case of gods, a (sm)lightningstrike is en route.

Talic
2008-04-15, 07:52 AM
If a conspiracy becomes official, the police is on its way to knock down your door and arrest the insurgents.
Or in the case of gods, a (sm)lightningstrike is en route.

A conspiracy can HAVE officials without BEING an official. Deity tryouts are on every third Tuesday of the month. Be cautious about bringing cheese as a gift. The almighty Solo is allergic to it, though it be in his portfolio. Believe me, you don't want to see lactose intolerance of deific proportions.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-15, 07:55 AM
And lo, on the eleventh day, awesomesauce rained down from the heavens upon the masses. On the twelfth day, the masses realized what awesomesauce -really- was.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-15, 08:01 AM
Bagsie Death, Necromancy and Gumbo. Also reasonably priced home furnishing.:smallcool:

Gamerlord
2008-04-15, 08:07 AM
uh solo if i begin worshipping you as a god what domains do i get?

SamTheCleric
2008-04-15, 08:14 AM
What's your stance on the whole cure/inflict thing? Can we just have both?

Talic
2008-04-15, 08:16 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4120905&postcount=118

This treatise should provide sacred insight into the portfolio of the gods.

I think he also has Wal Mart in there somewhere. I know I do.

Solo
2008-04-15, 08:17 AM
What's your stance on the whole cure/inflict thing? Can we just have both?


You may channel Awesome, which can both cure or inflict.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-16, 04:34 AM
You may channel Awesome, which can both cure or inflict.

Cool. Whats your holy symbol?

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-16, 05:03 AM
I am in favor of the new Solo order, as long as we get to bury any survivors. hehe . . .

Solo
2008-04-16, 07:06 AM
Cool. Whats your holy symbol?

Any implement of destruction or stabbity doom will suffice.


I'm tempted to make it a nuclear weapon, but that might not be convenient for those of you who do not live in ex-Soviet republics.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-16, 07:17 AM
Awesome. So does that mean I automatically get Weapon Focus with that Masterwork Shiv of mine if I'm a Favored Soul of you?

Solo
2008-04-16, 07:21 AM
Awesome. So does that mean I automatically get Weapon Focus with that Masterwork Shiv of mine if I'm a Favored Soul of you?

You even get the option of turning it into a Healing Shiv.

Enlong
2008-05-05, 05:16 PM
You even get the option of turning it into a Healing Shiv.

Which end does the healing?

Solo
2008-05-05, 05:54 PM
The shiny end, of course.

Enlong
2008-05-05, 06:30 PM
Ah, and which end does the stabbitying?

Solo
2008-05-05, 06:35 PM
The shiny end, duh.

Have you never been around a syringe before, man?

Enlong
2008-05-05, 06:38 PM
OK. I'm swayed. I want to be a Cleric of Solo, with the Awesome and Sarcasm domains. What must I do?

Solo
2008-05-05, 06:41 PM
OK. I'm swayed. I want to be a Cleric of Solo, with the Awesome and Sarcasm domains. What must I do?

Go forth, my son, and be Awesome.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-05, 06:42 PM
OK. I'm swayed. I want to be a Cleric of Solo, with the Awesome and Sarcasm domains. What must I do?

Go read every episode of 8-Bit Theatre, by Brian Clevinger. Then, go watch the movies by The Legendary Frog, made from some of the 8-Bit episodes.


And that's just the process to see if you get the interview.

EDIT: Or, the Deity in question posts before me and lets you do it anyway.

Enlong
2008-05-05, 06:43 PM
Go read every episode of 8-Bit Theatre, by Brian Clevinger. Then, go watch the movies by The Legendary Frog, made from some of the 8-Bit episodes.


And that's just the process to see if you get the interview.
Already done.:smallcool:

Frosty
2008-07-26, 01:41 AM
Well, this is by far the most comprehensive sorcerer guide I've seen for 3.5, so I'll ask questions here.

Do any of you think that it is worth it to learn Resistance, Superior as a sorcerer? It's not something I cast over and over during the day, but I'm likely to cast it every day on me and my familiar, and it'll save me 25000 gold. Still, Spells known are precious for the sorcerer...

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-26, 01:47 AM
Rune Delvers Fortune. That is all.

Frosty
2008-07-26, 01:48 AM
Yes, that is definitely a good 4th level spell, but does it make a +6 Resistance bonus to all saves obsolete?

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-26, 01:51 AM
well u probably don't want overlap

Frosty
2008-07-26, 01:58 AM
One gives a Luck bonus. The other, Resistance bonus. Thq eustion is whether jyust having one of them will be enough for me to make my saves...

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-26, 02:10 AM
i guess if you had really good cha you woldn't need resistance

Frosty
2008-07-26, 02:31 AM
+7 bonus most likely.

Oslecamo
2008-07-26, 05:16 AM
Isn't this necromancy, the school sorcerers are suposed to keep away from?

Frosty
2008-07-26, 11:23 AM
No, it's Abjuration, the Resistance, Superior.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-26, 11:25 AM
No, it's Abjuration, the Resistance, Superior.

I believe he was referring to the fact that the previous post before yours was some time in May... in other words, thread necromancy.

Gorbash
2008-07-26, 11:26 AM
Why was Solo banned, anyway?

Frosty
2008-07-26, 11:28 AM
I believe he was referring to the fact that the previous post before yours was some time in May... in other words, thread necromancy.

True, but this thread is also the thread about sorcerers. This is just be stickied.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-26, 11:29 AM
I believe he was referring to the fact that the previous post before yours was some time in May... in other words, thread necromancy.

Crap crap crap! See! This is why people shouldn't post in these guides! Because now it's going to be locked and die. Dang it! I liked this guide...


And Solo got banned? When did this happen?

monty
2008-07-26, 11:46 AM
It's been less than three months. I've seen worse, and this is a great guide.

Gorbash
2008-07-26, 12:06 PM
Crap crap crap! See! This is why people shouldn't post in these guides! Because now it's going to be locked and die. Dang it! I liked this guide...


And Solo got banned? When did this happen?

That happened to Logic Ninja's guide, too. :/
Oddly enough, Logic Ninja got banned, too.

Can someone clarify Solo's ban? He was a great member of this forum, and this forum died a little if it's permanent.

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-26, 12:10 PM
and if we keep talking about it, won't we get the thread locked too?

Deth Muncher
2008-07-26, 12:32 PM
and if we keep talking about it, won't we get the thread locked too?

That's a very good point. On the particular subject of some of our more beloved members being banned recently, Rawhide and Roland St. Jude have both made comments about this in the Board Help forum. I suggest we mosey on over there to look up what they said so as not to draw them to this thread with the intent of closing it.

Cainen
2008-07-26, 03:37 PM
Mage of the Arcane Order requires you to be able to prepare and cast arcane spells, sorry.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-26, 04:41 PM
Mage of the Arcane Order requires you to be able to prepare and cast arcane spells, sorry.

Exactly why are you sorry?

Oh, wait, I get it. You think that sorcerers can't get into MotAO because they don't prepare spells. I guess you haven't seen the feat Arcane Preparation which lets spontanious casters prepare spells.

Sure, it's an extra feat, but it's also very much worth it to be able to pull a spell out of nowhere to save the party, particularly for a Sorcerer who has a higher chance of not having the right spell on hand to solve the problem than a Wizard does.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-26, 05:13 PM
Mage of the Arcane Order requires you to be able to prepare and cast arcane spells, sorry.

Arcane preparation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-25202.html) is mentioned for use in qualifying for MotAO.

Sorry.


EDIT: Curses! I've been Ninja'd! That's what I get for going to get icecream.

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-04, 01:55 PM
does anyoe actually play sorcerers like this?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 08:18 AM
Mage of the Arcane Order requires you to be able to prepare and cast arcane spells, sorry.

Guild Wizard of Waterdeep doesn't require the "preparation" feat and it grants the same spell pool access. Even lets Adepts into the Guild.

AKA_Bait
2008-08-05, 08:31 AM
That happened to Logic Ninja's guide, too. :/
Oddly enough, Logic Ninja got banned, too.

Well TLN's guide didn't really dissapear, even though people can't post in it anymore. There is no shortage of people who will link you to it at the drop of a hat. Perhaps that will happen with this one too.


Can someone clarify Solo's ban? He was a great member of this forum, and this forum died a little if it's permanent.

Inappropriate Topics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)


does anyoe actually play sorcerers like this?

I do, and did before Solo's guide came out. Flexibility was always the watchword for a spont casters, be they Sorcerers or Favored Souls.

Deth Muncher
2008-08-05, 07:33 PM
Okay, let me put this out there. Solo has charged me with answering any and all questions about things you may need to know about him, his status, and the like. Please, DO NOT post in this forum about those kinds of things, because, as AKA pointed out, it's an innappropriate topic. Hell, I don't really think we should be posting here in the first place, or it WILL go the same way as TLN's guide: read, closed. Now, I've added link in my profile to both. I suggest those of you who wish to keep this thread alive should it be closed do the same.

Again, if anyone has any questions, please, feel free to PM/IM me.

Roland St. Jude
2008-08-05, 09:04 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread was comfortably dead before the present thread necromancy. Please feel free to start a new thread to discuss 3.5 Sorcerers. You can even link to this, if need be. But please don't commit thread necromancy. (See the Forum Rules for more on this).