"Superhero-flavour" Warlocks equal to what other classes? [In specified scenario]

[Zweanslord]

Alright, I have this wacky idea in my head about an adventure where the pc's are all warlocks, but the flavour (and alignment restriction) of the class is tossed out and the players have to think up for their own how their powers look and came from. In the adventure, they would be the equivalent to superhero's, set in some kind medieval/renaissance city.

However, a team of hero's might not all be composed out of warlocks. After all, warlocks are not known for their ability to tank goons or the like. So, what other classes would equal the warlock in power? And then in the following scenario:
High point buy( perhaps somewhere around 40 point buy). Somewhere around level 5 and no magical equipment or armour (craft feats are not allowed either). Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) Variant will be used, where the warlocks use column B. Every player will have all skills as class skills. Jump DC's will be lower. Action Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm) might be used. Prestige Classes will be mostly out of the picture (with some exceptions). I can not think of further additions to the scenario..

I was thinking that in such a case perhaps monk and soulknife/soulbow (soulbow would be one of the prc's allowed) would be legible candidates for equal power. While monk is usually not as powerful, it would have less problems with MAD due to the high point buy. Further, I do not know much about the dragonfire adept, but it seems a lot like the warlock. Question is, is it about equal in power too? Other class I was thinking of that might be equal in power is rogue.

Now, I do not know if I will ever run such a game, but that does not take away my curiosity about the question I asked above. And, in case I do run the game, if the monk and the soulknife/soulbow are not sufficiently equal in power, what adjustments to those (or other classes that would fit the genre) should be made to make them equal in power with the warlock? Also, while I would certainly like to know which spellcasters might be equal in power to warlock, for the game itself I would only be interested in classes who can do their thing all day long without running out of powers/spells, so no need to propose adjustments for them.

Further suggestions for good variants or other things to use in such a game would be welcome as well.

[Tokiko Mima]

Alright, I have this wacky idea in my head about an adventure where the pc's are all warlocks, but the flavour (and alignment restriction) of the class is tossed out and the players have to think up for their own how their powers look and came from. In the adventure, they would be the equivalent to superhero's, set in some kind medieval/renaissance city.

However, a team of hero's might not all be composed out of warlocks. After all, warlocks are not known for their ability to tank goons or the like. So, what other classes would equal the warlock in power? And then in the following scenario:
High point buy( perhaps somewhere around 40 point buy). Somewhere around level 5 and no magical equipment or armour (craft feats are not allowed either). Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) Variant will be used, where the warlocks use column B. Every player will have all skills as class skills. Jump DC's will be lower. Action Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm) might be used. Prestige Classes will be mostly out of the picture (with some exceptions). I can not think of further additions to the scenario..

I was thinking that in such a case perhaps monk and soulknife/soulbow (soulbow would be one of the prc's allowed) would be legible candidates for equal power. While monk is usually not as powerful, it would have less problems with MAD due to the high point buy. Further, I do not know much about the dragonfire adept, but it seems a lot like the warlock. Question is, is it about equal in power too? Other class I was thinking of that might be equal in power is rogue.

Now, I do not know if I will ever run such a game, but that does not take away my curiosity about the question I asked above. And, in case I do run the game, if the monk and the soulknife/soulbow are not sufficiently equal in power, what adjustments to those (or other classes that would fit the genre) should be made to make them equal in power with the warlock? Also, while I would certainly like to know which spellcasters might be equal in power to warlock, for the game itself I would only be interested in classes who can do their thing all day long without running out of powers/spells, so no need to propose adjustments for them.

Further suggestions for good variants or other things to use in such a game would be welcome as well.

Tome of Battle base classes (Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade) are recommended, right off. They run on a renewable manuever system that's similar to Warlocks and scales very well across all levels. Swordsage (Unarmed Varient) makes an excellent replacement for a Monk.

Dragonfire Adepts are a little more flexible than warlocks and therefore slightly more powerful because they don't have to dip into their pool of Invocations for stuff like Blast Shapes and Eldritch Essenses. I haven't played with them much, but the people that have say nothing but good things.

Are you allowing the Hellfire Warlock PrC?

[Burley]

First, Awesome Idea. I've always wanted something like this, but nobody I game with wants to play a warlock.

Second, it's pretty easy to make a melee Warlock. Since you're using the defense bonus anyways, they can ignore buying medium-heavy armor, invest in high Dex, take Hideous Blow for LIGHT weapons, Eldritch Glaive for multiple hits, and take Weapon Finesse to make that high Dex work a lot more in a lot more situations.

Also, if you're wanting a fist-fighter feel: Allow for an invocation that allows you to add your Eldritch Blast damage to Unarmed Strikes. Throw on a pair of Spiked Gauntlets for a little spike in damage. Again, high Dex and Weapon Finesse.

If you're going to plan for the characters reaching 12th level, you need to create a new ability to replace the Item Creation junk. Even though it's a level 12 ability, it's basically their capstone ability. It's okay to take it away, but replace it with something fun.


As for the Dragonfire Adept: I usually play Warlocks, but I'm playing a DFA right now. It's useful in some ways. At low levels, it's a little daunting, though. I've got a 15ft cone or a 30ft line right now, that does either fire or cold damage. 1d6, reflex for half. DC...13. So lame. So lame. But, they do get free Breath Effects (Breath Shapes and Essenses) to replace their diminished amount of invocations. Some of their invocations are better than the Warlocks, but they get a lot less. It's more important to choose wisely, but you have limited options to ease the stress of choosing.
So, Dragonfire Adepts are good and flavorful, but a pain in the sphincter.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Incarnates and Totemists would also be cool here - they've got that long duration idea which seems to be what you're looking for, and have some interesting abilities.

Incarnates effectively shape their own magic items, as soulmelds - similar to Psylocke's (?) katana-y thing, or any sort of 'I shape "x" energy into objects' person. Totemists, on the other hand, would work quite well for anyone looking at making a 'beast' style character.

Sign me up, if you're thinking of running this on the forums.

[Draz74]

Hmmm, I like the idea of mixing in Incarnum classes. Probably all three (Incarnate, Totemist, Soulborn). They are about the right power level, and I think they could definitely seem like superheroes if you re-flavor them.

Dragonfire Adepts are slightly more powerful than Warlocks if you aren't giving the Warlocks any splatbook support (other than the Complete Arcane that they come from). Add in Eldritch Glaive, and maybe Hellfire Warlock and so on, and the two classes are very equal. Dragonfire Adepts are even easier to play, though, IMHO.

Swordsages have excellent flavor for a superhero campaign, but are probably a little more powerful than you want. The reverse goes for Soulknives. Maybe Soulbow saves them, though; I don't have any experience with that PrC.

Monk honestly doesn't seem as superhero-ish to me, but I see where it could be appealing to some people. It's almost as weak as the Soulknife. Maybe check out the Monk/Psychic Warrior hybrid class that I wrote up on the homebrew forum a few months ago? Or at least this Monk fix (http://3eupgrade.akashicrecord.org/Monk_rebuild) that I wrote up.

Factotum seems superhero-ish too (MacGyver, anyone?). If you don't let it get the online Font of Inspiration feat or use a bunch of crazy multiclassing, it shouldn't be too powerful (nor too weak).

[MorkaisChosen]

I don't know exactly how the class works, but I think Artificer might work- if the durations on the Infusions are long, anyway. They'd need a fix to remove the Crafting thing and replace it, but it allows for some interesting flavour.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I don't know exactly how the class works, but I think Artificer might work- if the durations on the Infusions are long, anyway. They'd need a fix to remove the Crafting thing and replace it, but it allows for some interesting flavour.

Well, I've been trying to homebrew an infusion based caster class, but an Artificer really is missing out on a lot without crafting. Perhaps give its spell list to the bard?

Infusion durations are long, but take a while to cast (although can be shortened to a full-round action by expending an action point).

[MorkaisChosen]

Are they long enough that you could use them at the beginning of the day and then not have to worry about it?

[Ghal Marak]

Are they long enough that you could use them at the beginning of the day and then not have to worry about it?

From what I've seen, they are usualy 1 Min/level. Also, this sounds freaking awesome. The only problem I see is if everybody goes warlock (which probably won't happen, what with all the other classes mentioned) there would be problems with variety. I mean, all the heroes shooting the same (or near enough) beam from their hand?

And then what about people who want to go super strong? I mean sure, you could just try to go for 18 strength, but perhaps there could be a class out there that could be tweaked to cater to brute rip-a-boulder-out-of-the-ground strength, 'ala Hulk?

[The_Werebear]

Binders might work as far as flavor goes if you alter the speed at which they can bind new spirits (change vestiges a few times a day)

Dragon Shaman, while fairly weak, could do superheroics with a variety of beneficial auras.

[GryffonDurime]

I've always loved the idea of superherolocks. So much of that class can be reflavored.

As for Super Strength, perhaps a custom feat/invocation that allows you to trade 1d6 Eldritch Blast for +1 Strength? +9 Strength is certainly in the superhuman range.

[Solo]

Rogues and Fighters can also be superheroes

In Watchmen, few of the superheroes had actual superpowers;

The Comedian would probably be a pure fighter, for example, and Rorschach a rogue.

Interesting, eh?

[Zweanslord]

That is more interest/replies than I was expecting, but I do appreciate it.

I do not think I would allow the Hellfire Warlock PrC, Tokiko Mima, because it seems like a pretty no-brainer to take over normal Warlock levels. Especially if you have some way to prevent the constitution damage.

Any idea what to replace the level 12 ability with if I do decide to go up there, Burley Warlock?

Thanks for the heads up on Dragonfire Adepts, it seems like they can stand besides warlocks nicely. But besides Dragon Magic, what other splatbooks can they use? Are there any other books that have something for them?

Incarnum characters seem like they can fit, but I do not know what kind of power they hold. Remember, there will be no magical items. If they make their own magical items, how would that fare in the sketched scenario? Furthermore, while I have heard of them and get their thing, I do not know what I as DM would have to expect from such characters.

This same counts for Tome of Battle characters and the Factotum class. I do not know what I might expect from them in play, what drives their abilities. You can tell me what their abilities are in general, but that does not tell me what I might expect in play to be used against npc's (ofcourse I would not mind anybody telling me that). And with Tome of Battle and Incarnum, that adds a lot to check, but I might look further into it. How does renewing work for Tome of Battle characters?

MorkaisChosen, I have been told of the Artificer as potentially being up there or close to Wizard, Cleric and Druid.. so I doubt they would be equal in power to a warlock..

I will take your monk fix into memory, Draz74. Though I was wondering if the monk might be regarded as stronger with the high power point buy and a party without magic items.

Ghal Marak, you raise a nice point about strong characters and blasting. The point why I want other classes besides the warlock (or dragonfire adept) is because else you would have a team full of ranged folk. As for their blasts looking alike, that is untrue. The players would have to alter the flavour of the warlock. Their 'eldritch blast' could like like anything. It could be a laser mounted in them, it could be eye beams, it could be rapid energy gun fire, it could be orbs of fire (though no fire damage) flung at the enemy, it could be small thrown seeds that explode upon hitting, etc, etc.

And solo, I doubt the fighter would work as being equal in power to a warlock.. without any magical items or armour. I do not know how equal rogue stands in the specified scenario though, hence why I asked.

Anyway, to sum it up, the mentioned classes as possible equal in power to the Warlock options (in the specified scenario) were:
Dragonfire Adept
Crusader
Swordsage
Warblade
Incarnate
Totemist
Soulborn
Factotum
Binder
Dragon Shaman
Rogue

Well, fighter was mentioned too and I mentioned monk & soulknife/soulbow, but I doubt the fighter (especially in the scenario) and the monk was only mentioned twice, which gives me little insight, so I would like to hear more.

So, my question is then, of the above named classes, what is their relative power amongst each other and especially versus the warlock? And take into the specified scenario (no magic items or armour, etc).

[Draz74]

Thanks for the heads up on Dragonfire Adepts, it seems like they can stand besides warlocks nicely. But besides Dragon Magic, what other splatbooks can they use? Are there any other books that have something for them?

Races of the Dragon! Without it, the Dragonfire Adept isn't nearly as good (mostly due to the feat Entangling Exhalation, although there are some other minor goodies too).

Draconomicon is nice too. And Complete Arcane of course (e.g., for the feat Extra Invocation).


Incarnum characters seem like they can fit, but I do not know what kind of power they hold. Remember, there will be no magical items. If they make their own magical items, how would that fare in the sketched scenario? Furthermore, while I have heard of them and get their thing, I do not know what I as DM would have to expect from such characters.

I don't know Incarnum very well and don't know what you should expect, either. But I don't think the magic items thing will be a problem. Their magic items are their class features, and the items can even be "fluffed away" and made invisible, etc., if they don't fit the campaign's style.


This same counts for Tome of Battle characters and the Factotum class. I do not know what I might expect from them in play, what drives their abilities. You can tell me what their abilities are in general, but that does not tell me what I might expect in play to be used against npc's (ofcourse I would not mind anybody telling me that). And with Tome of Battle and Incarnum, that adds a lot to check, but I might look further into it. How does renewing work for Tome of Battle characters?

Factotums get 2-10 (depending on their level) Inspiration Points per encounter. They can recharge this pool anytime they have a minute to rest. But their abilities that are useful out-of-combat, such as boosts to skill checks and their spell-like abilities, are limited on a per-day basis in addition to using Inspiration points. Their combat abilities, such as "add INT to AC," "add INT to damage," "gain an extra standard action this turn," are all on a per-encounter basis. The coolest thing that makes them superhero-ish is their ability to add their Factotum level to any skill check for 1 Inspiration. They have to have 1 rank in the skill, and they can only use it 1/day for any given skill. But it still makes them amazingly adaptable.

Tome of Battle classes all recover their maneuvers on a per-encounter basis. They also have ways to recover spent maneuvers in combat. The Crusader recovers maneuvers automatically, but somewhat randomly. The Swordsage is slow at recovering maneuvers, especially if he doesn't take the Adaptive Style feat, so he's normally better off to just use whatever he has available. The Warblade is in-between, and can recover maneuvers in combat as a swift action, but he can't use any of his other cool moves in the same round that he recovers.


I will take your monk fix into memory, Draz74. Though I was wondering if the monk might be regarded as stronger with the high power point buy and a party without magic items.

It helps, yes, but it will still be somewhat weaker than the warlock (who wasn't a terribly item-dependent class anyway).


Anyway, to sum it up, the mentioned classes as possible equal in power to the Warlock options (in the specified scenario) were:
Dragonfire Adept
Crusader
Swordsage
Warblade
Incarnate
Totemist
Soulborn
Factotum
Binder
Dragon Shaman
Rogue

So, my question is then, of the above named classes, what is their relative power amongst each other and especially versus the warlock? And take into the specified scenario (no magic items or armour, etc).

Warblade, Swordsage and especially Crusader will probably feel a little bit too powerful compared to their Warlock companions. Dragon Shaman will feel left behind. The others seem more or less equal.

[MorkaisChosen]

I think the Incarnum classes fit the flavour without making the equipment invisible- seeing as they create it from pure soul-stuff, it makes them interesting and distinct- "Did you see that guy who fought off the demons? He had some kind of glowing armour! Wow!" It helps to make them see more super compared to normal people in a magic-itemless world.

[Ghal Marak]

Any idea what to replace the level 12 ability with if I do decide to go up there, Burley Warlock?

How about 'MEGA BLAST'! Roughly, it would be an attack that combines five eldritch blasts into one big one (bonus points if they shout Kamehameha before it :smallbiggrin: ). Good for getting that damage out quickly. Perhaps have a ?/day or ?/encounter mechanic. Just my two copper. :smallwink:

[RTGoodman]

I really like this idea, too. If you're still thinking about a "Hulk" type superhero class, just go with Barbarian but have every Barbarian automatically have Mountain Rage (from the Goliath Barbarian racial substitution levels in Races of Stone) instead of the standard Rage. Instead of just getting bonuses, you actually just become Large and get the bonuses that come with that.

Also, maybe consider allowing the War Hulk prestige class but with altered requirements (maybe Mountain Rage 2/day, Cleave, and BAB +6 or something like that) and only letting its abilities work when the character rages. That should work out well for a superhero that just focuses on smashing stuff. War Hulk is from the Miniatures Handbook, but can be found most of the way down on this preview page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a).

[Zweanslord]

About Incarnum, it is not the appearance of items that I worry about, since the players will have all the freedom to dictate the flavour however they like, but it is the mechanical advantage. If the others do not have items, the thing I wonder about is whether the Incarnum classes with their 'class feature items' will surprise me or be able to put their power over that of those without them. Hence, a question of power really.

Draz74, you make the Factotums seem very plausible in this context, heh. Thanks for the heads up on Races of the Dragon, I did not know that. Hm, and by power estimation of the ToB classes I think I will scratch them off the list then. Would also save me from learning a new system. :smalltongue: But my gratitude for explaining their recovering more.

So I think that would leave:
Warlock
Dragonfire Adept
Incarnate
Totemist
Soulborn
Factotum
Binder
Rogue
Monk (with a fix?)

Ghal Marak, no I will not give them the Kamehameha ability :smalltongue:. But perhaps make their eldritch blast progress 'normally': 13th 7d6, 15th 8d6, 17th 9d6, 19th 10d6. Perhaps increase fiendish resilience/DR/energy resistance.. Hmm, but then there could be dead levels. Anyway, I would rather see an ability that can be used as many times as desired, just like the rest of the warlock abilities.

rtg0922, interesting thought you have there! I know of the War Hulk, but in the bad way: The guy that tosses rocks at planets to destroy em or whatever monstrosity the optimisation board on wizards made, heh. Though that works on those pesky rules in the Complete Warrior with throwing things. It could work very well without it, I think.. I do not know and that also brings me to the question: would the barbarian (without magical items) be on par with the warlock? Also, if it would be incorporated, I would probably make the rage a 1/encounter ability.

Further opinions are, ofcourse, welcomed.

[RTGoodman]

Well, from what I know about Incarnum (which is very little), actually making the soul-meld items is basically the biggest part of the Incarnum classes' power. It's easy to imagine a superhero that doesn't have fancy powers like energy blasts or anything, but instead relies on technology and stuff like that. (You know, like Batman.)


Regarding Barbarians, I think they're generally considered on the same tier as Warlocks or just slightly lower. They're weaker than casters, but they're basically the strongest of the Core melee classes. Allow him to take Power Attack and Leap Attack, and maybe Battle Jump (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Battle_Jump,all) from Unapproachable East, and he should be a jumping, size-changing, raging beast. Add in Shock Trooper and other stuff like that, and he'll be ridiculous. And compared to the other classes listed, that d12 hit die is gonna make sure he stays around quite a while.

[Burley]

@ Ghal Marak: Dragonfire Adepts have two different blasts that deal a massive amount of damage, one that is five breath weapons in one, and another that does...extra damage and dissintegrate if you kill it (flashy overkill). Anyways, to make the Warlocks...Mega Blast... it'd have to be on par with the Five-Fold Breath of Tiamat, which deals a sphincter load of damage to the user. NOT WORTH IT!

However, Zweanslord, something else just chimed in my head! There are TWO abilities that you'd need to replace. On is the level 12 item creation thing, and the other is the Decieve Item ability that lets them use ANY item ever made, and take 10 on a UMD roll whenever they want (including fights). So, if ther are no magic items, those are both useless. (To a much lesser extent, their Detect Magic at-will ability suffers a hefty blow, since most of the time it's used is to see if loot is magical or not.)

For the above useless abilites, keep in mind the general flavors of your characters. I think you should just tell them they aren't getting those abilities, and, if they still agree to play a Warlock, reward them at the levels they're supposed to get those abilities with new and cool-character-concepty abilities.

For example, these are abilites for a Gambit type of character:
Instead of the normal "Eldritch Blast", he imbues cards with explosive energy. (Same exact rules as the blast, but the character will still need to buy/craft cards.)
Instead of Detect Magic at-will, give one Prestidigitation at-will. Useful, but not entirely game breaking, unless it's in the right hands...Bwahuaha! (Doesn't really fit the character, but, it's still fun and flavorful)
To replace the Deceive Item ability: Let him charge his Eldritch Blast into something and set a 1d4 (1d6) round timer on it. The item must be something specific to the character, like his cards.(Functions sorta like Delayed Fireball with Eldritch Blast damage)
For the Imbue Item ability: The Gambit-lock can now set use the previous ability on anything and everything, with a touch (or melee touch attack), as a standard action. (Imagine the look on the [Enemy Fighter]'s face when the Gambit-lock Imbues the [Enemy Fighter]'s full-plate armor and runs away. "Hot, Hot, HOT! HOTHOTHOTHOTHo...Kaboom!")
Eldritch Glaive would be like...the automatic first invocation for anybody wanting to be like Gambit.

Anyways, that's all I got. I could probably make up stuff for other X-men characters though...that'd be fun...
If you want to PM me your player's character concepts, I'll help you think up some ideas for alternate abilities.
Also, if this is a forum campaign, and if I manage to wealel my way in Dibs on My Gambit-Lock.

Also, be careful with letting them shoot it out of their eyes. That's already a feat (Ocular Spell) and is extremely powerful. It would completely negate the use of handcuffs and other things. Allowing them to have that could back you into a corner later.

[Ghal Marak]

Hmm... okay, how about multiple attacks? Perhaps something like flurry, but they are made as ranged attacks instead of touch attacks so it dosen't get too powerful.

EDIT: This would work well under the rules idea provided above.

EDIT 2: Okay, forget everything I previously said within this post. :smallsigh: I forgot about the Glaive.

[Burley]

Erk...that's what the Eldritch Glaive does...Allows for multiple attacks at a considerably shorter range (reach).
The problem with multiple attacks appears at the mid-high levels. Especially with no magical protection, enemies will already be crying from the Xd6 damage from one shot...

[Ghal Marak]

Okay then, your idea is the best as far as I can see BW. Can't get much better than personalized class abilities full of flavorful goodness. :smallsmile:

[Burley]

That's right you can't. :tongue:

There's a reason I have use this sceen name. :smallwink:

[Zweanslord]

I was thinking about the abilities you mentioned, Burley Warlock, and actually, I will probably not have to replace them. Those abilities are only useful to warlocks that actually invest ranks in Use Magic Device. Sure, as warlock it is very tempting to, exactly for that reason, but ranks in UMD, but it is not obligatory. Especially with 2+int skill point, you might wish to invest somewhere else, depending on the player. For those not putting points in UMD, they forsake the benefits of both abilities anyway. Ofcourse, in this game it is useless to put points in UMD, but I do not feel as if I necessarily have to replace those abilities, since any warlock in a normal game is not guaranteed to make use of them. And as for detect magic being less useful for loot skimming, that is true, but I never said the world would be without magic, just without magic items. :smalltongue:

About shooting from the eyes, that is fine as flavour. Remember, flavour does not effect mechanical advantages. If you shoot from your eyes, this does not take away the somatic components you have to incorporate.

This would be a forum adventure if I chose to do it. Before I consider it, I need some more opinions about power level of the class list incorporated.

This would be the potential class list:
Warlock
Dragonfire Adept
Incarnate
Totemist
Soulborn
Factotum
Binder
Rogue
Barbarian (Rage 1/encounter)

Thus, about equal power in the specified scenario and in such a mixed team?

The starting level would most likely be 6 and level would not increase much beyond that. This is because I intend to run an adventure, not a campaign. Plus forum games have a higher tendency to die out.

Oh, and players are free to pick or make a medium race, but the mechanical advantage will be equal to a human (bonus feat and extra skill points).

[MorkaisChosen]

I really wish I had access to the Warlock rules now... Are Soulknives not on that list because they're underpowered, or is there another reason? They definitely fit in, with their infinite-use Mindblade.

If you run this here, I'd quite like to get in as a Soulknife if you allow them, I love the idea...

[Zweanslord]

Soulknives(/soulbows) do fit in, but they are underpowered. That is basically the only reason why they are not on the list. I would not know if there is an 'easy fix' to up their power to make them at least fun to play next to warlocks.

[Human Paragon 3]

Couple things.

First, I think soul knife/bow is being vastly underestimated. Yes, it is underpowered, but in a land without magic items, having the mind blade is a huge advantage. You can fill er up with great enhancement bonuses, especially if you go the soul bow route, and there are a few good mind blade enhancement feats in the complete psionic.

Second, I think the mountain rage ability that someone above mentioned would be a great super hero abillity for the barbarian. I'd allow it for people who want it.

Also, here is a way to make soul knife stronger if you're worried about them being weak: let the Psychic Strike apply to everything, not just living enemies with a mind. Then you can get massive damage for sunders and be more useful in general. Another upgrade would be giving them multiple throw at level 8 instead of 20 or whatever ridiculous level it is.

[Woot Spitum]

If you are going the superhero route, psions and psychic warriors allow you to do a lot of interesting things.

[MorkaisChosen]

Problem with plain Psions and PsyWarriors is that they can't keep going all day without their abilities running out- that's part of the brief, hence the ToB classes (X per encounter), Invokers (at will) and Soulknives.

If the only problem with Soulknives/bows is that they're underpowered, I think you should bung them in and let the players make the decision. I like the image of someone jumping off a roof (with the lower Jump DCs and unlimited class skills) and laying about with a couple of ectoplasmic shortswords...

[Uncle Festy]

Count me in!
I think the Soulknife would probably be powerful enough if you give it full BAB. I actually have no clue, but I think it would make it a more reasonable meleer. On the other hand, 3/4 BAB+the ability to use weapon enhancements+a world sans standard magic items=a decent melee class once the Soulknife gets the enhancement ability.

[MorkaisChosen]

At Level 6, it's a +1 Mindblade with a +1 enhancement (Defending, Keen, Lucky, Mighty Cleaving, Psychokinetic, Sundering or Vicious), and they get free Weapon Focus.

I can see the concept now... High strength, ranks in Jump, Mental Leap, lowered Jump DCs... If I do this, at level 6 I can have (at Strength 16 and expending psionic focus) a +22 to Jump checks... Even with the nromal DCs, that means jumping 8 feet vertically or 30 feet horizontally on a 10.

The Soulknife's other advantage is their relatively high HD- they have a D10. All in all, I think they have a decent chance in these circumstances. It's particularly the enhancements that do it for me.

EDIT: In case you hadn't guessed, this means I want to play (stealthy acrobat style Soulknife).

[Human Paragon 3]

EDIT: In case you hadn't guessed, this means I want to play (stealthy acrobat style Soulknife).

PrC into Thief-Acrobat?

[MorkaisChosen]

I'd probably keep advancing the Soulknife stuff, actually- I'm thinking lots of feats like Mental Leap (expend Psionic Focus for a +10 on a jump check), the Speed of Thought bonus feat all Soulknives get, Up the Walls (most awesome feat ever... Lets you run on walls while you're psionically focused...), and probably Narrow Mind and Meditation to help get focused in the first place.

Isn't there some feat somewhere that lets you deal insane damage when you jump on people?

[Human Paragon 3]

You're thinking of Leap Attack, I beleve, which doubles the power attack damage you deal if you make a dc 10 jump check. Unfortunately Power Attack and medium BAB are not best friends, nor is power attack and dual-wielding.

[MorkaisChosen]

Never mind... I might not go TWF, seeing as it reduces the enhancement bonus- maybe just use it as one shortsword, or persuade DMs to allow Rapier mindblades.

EDIT: Or, if the multiple-throw ability gets moved earlier, knife-throwing Soulknives are cool... Soulbow would work, too.

[Human Paragon 3]

Why short sword if you can turn it into a long or bastard sword? Also, Complete Psionic has a wide selection of other stuff to turn the mindbade into. Hopefully people don't mind this threadjack too much.

[Uncle Festy]

I don't think this is a thread-jack. The thread is based on discussing what classes are equal to a warlock, while you're discussing how useful a soulknife could be in the given scenario.

[Draz74]

Problem with plain Psions and PsyWarriors is that they can't keep going all day without their abilities running out- that's part of the brief, hence the ToB classes (X per encounter), Invokers (at will) and Soulknives.

I have toyed with the idea of per-encounter PP psionic classes, though. A Psion would get PP equal to his manifester level +INT, plus whatever he gets from feats or Naturally Psionic or whatever.

The only catch is, you'd have to ban a lot of useful non-combat powers that would be overpowered if you could use them infinitely. Although the Psychic Warrior, at least, doesn't have very many of those.

[RTGoodman]

Thinking about other things that could work, my mind came to the Shadowcaster from Tome of Magic. Even in a low-magic setting, you could easily change the fluff to make their abilities not come from arcane magic but instead from a mutant ability to mess with shadows or anything like that. Seems like a very "X-Men" style superhero ability to me, and that's always good.

As far as power-level goes, Shadowcasters would probably fit in with the other classes you've listed and would give a "caster" option besides Warlock. And if they still seem weak, you can change the mysteries per day to a per-encounter system (I think that's the usual "fix" anyway) and that would give them a little power boost.

[Zweanslord]

So, that would make the list of about equal power in the specified scenario:
Warlock
Dragonfire Adept
Incarnate
Totemist
Soulborn
Factotum
Binder
Rogue
Barbarian (Rage 1/encounter)
Soulknife/soulbow
Shadowcaster (Mysteries per encounter)

With possibly Monk/Dragon Shaman for those who really want that and don't mind being a bit less powerful.

In regards to power level discussion, I think psions & pysic warriors are not on the same level of power as warlocks and the like, but rather above. And for the purposes of the game, they indeed go dry eventually.

Further nitpicking of the above list? Does it look like a good list of power around that of the warlock for the specified scenario and level 6?

[MorkaisChosen]

Why short sword if you can turn it into a long or bastard sword? Also, Complete Psionic has a wide selection of other stuff to turn the mindbade into. Hopefully people don't mind this threadjack too much.

Finesse. The character concept I have sitting around involves high Dex, and you can't finesse a Longsword or Bastard Sword (unless there's some crazy overpowered feat I'm unaware of...).

Also, I've realised how cool TWF would look in my head with a Mental Leaping Up the Walling Soulknife, so it's back on the menu- 6 levels of humanity end up with Finesse, TWF, Mental Leap and Up the Walls (main problem being I'd have to meditate before I can go Up the Walls after Leaping, but decent Concentration helps with that).

[Fizban]

Doesn't look like anyone's arguing over the Incarnum classes, but I figured I'd mention: they don't really get magic items, not like normal items anyway. They basically have a set of powers they can change every day, and shift the balance between their strengths at will (as in, lower the bonus from one to boost another). Most of the soulmelds just give skill bonuses to various skills, a few grant attacks or defense, and of course a couple have movement modes. They generally have to wait a long time before they can get the more powerful stuff (like full flight at a decent speed), and the non-skill bonuses require a chakra bind, which takes up a magic item slot and has a physical form, which is where they get the magic item thing.

So, they don't actually get magic items, but they were probably balanced with the idea that they would have to choose between using items and class features. But, they aren't all that strong to begin with, and only a totemist will come close to a warlock or dragonfire adept, and even then the others will have tatical versatility.

[Zweanslord]

Fizban, that has been really helpful, because it gives me some insight on what Incarnum does and what I can expect from it without having read the stuff yet. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Human Paragon 3]

Fizban, that has been really helpful, because it gives me some insight on what Incarnum does and what I can expect from it without having read the stuff yet. Thanks for the heads-up.

Just a heads up: I had a little difficulty processing the incarnum classes given a cursery reading. If you aren't familiar with how they work, I'd suggest leaving them out all together. They don't bring that much to the table and are more or less alien to the other dnd classes. Just my 2 cents.

[MorkaisChosen]

As long as the players A: know what they're doing and B: aren't trying to screw you over, it can probably be OK- I'm not familiar with Incarnum, but I've had a look on the WotC site and it doesn't look too bad.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Just a heads up: I had a little difficulty processing the incarnum classes given a cursery reading. If you aren't familiar with how they work, I'd suggest leaving them out all together. They don't bring that much to the table and are more or less alien to the other dnd classes. Just my 2 cents.

Not really; it's not that hard to remember that you have, say, four abilities, that you choose at the start of each day, and that you have X points to divide up between them.

They add versatility and endurance to the game, and can fit into several niches (probably making a more suitable trapfinder than the rogue, in this instance).

[The_Snark]

On the other hand, not all their abilities are necessarily suitable for a superhero; I have a hard time thinking of what a totemist superhero would be like, for example. (If you stick with more or less the same soulmelds, it makes sense, but why would you have wings and claws one day and fangs and a tail the next?)

And Juris has a point, it's a new system that takes a little bit to get familiar with; definitely don't try to run it if you don't have the book. The basic rules are reasonably simple, but you want to know what the character will be able to pull out next.

[MorkaisChosen]

Totemist could be channeling different animal-spirits, it just depends on the fluff. If you make them shamanistic, you could say one day he's using the wolf-spirit for claws and bites, then the next he channels an eagle to get wings and talons.

[Zweanslord]

Hm, different opinions about Incarnum. I do agree that flavour can be changed to however you wish. But the disccusion tempts me to leave them out so I can continue not looking at it and make it easier for me. Other than Incarnum, there were no further remarks on the list, so I assume the other classes are fine.

I think I might put up the recruiting thread tonight (though I already have it typed out in Word, just done with it). Unless somebody convinces me otherwise now, I will probably leave out the incarnum classes.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I think I might put up the recruiting thread tonight (though I already have it typed out in Word, just done with it). Unless somebody convinces me otherwise now, I will probably leave out the incarnum classes.

:smallfrown:

OK - if you don't want to have to look through them, then I understand.

[MorkaisChosen]

There's still a reasonable amount of choice there- what party niche would Incarnum classes fill? (Not rhetorical, that's an honest question

[Zweanslord]

Another, practical reason is that I expect that for the game itself there will be more applications than actual player slots and if there are players submitting Incarnum characters, they would have less chance to get in unless they astonish me. After all, when selecting characters, what is subconsciously easier for the DM? Pick the characters for who you know the rules or who you have to learn new things for? Just looking through them will most likely not prepare me enough to actually DM such characters. I do not want to give the players unfair chances, hence it would be better to give them fair options from the starts.

Anyway, the thread is now up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4062409#post4062409).