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The_Blue_Sorceress
2008-03-12, 02:51 PM
Hey all.

I'm building a Beguiler/Wizard multiclass heading for Nightmare Spinner and Ultimate Magus. The idea behind the character is that she's someone who is good at figuring out the secrets and fears of others and using that to demoralize and defeat them. Added on that is a pile of arcane power to back her up and deal with enemies that aren't as vulnerable to her other special abilities.

Here's where I am so far:

NG female half-elf beguiler 1

Str 11, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 17

Her first feat is Combat Expertise, which I need to get Improved Feint so I can make the best use of my Surprise Casting abilities. My third level Beguiler Advanced Learning spell is going to be Cause Fear so I can qualify for Nightmare Spinner. I'm not set on multiclassing to Wizard and going for Ultimate Ultimate Magus yet, I'm just playing with the idea. If I can do it, I'm all for it without sacrificing playability, then I'm all for it, if not, then I can live with just Beguiler -> Nightmare Spinner.

I'd like some advice on feats, skills, and when to take levels in what so I can build a decent character.

Thanks in advance,
Blue

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-12, 07:38 PM
1) Why the huge Charisma? Yes it governs Nightmare Spinner saves, is it really that important to put a 17 in it?

2) Improved Feint is worthless. Don't get it, and don't waste feats on it.

3) Nightmare Spinner/Ultimate Magus is better then Nightmare Spinner alone.

4) The thing about UM is that you have to focus on the Wizard side initially.

5) I would build levels something like:

Beguiler 2/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus X/Nightmare Spinner 1/Ultimate Magus Y/Nightmare Spinner 4

Practiced Spellcaster for Beguiler initially, so that more UM levels go to Wizard, take Nightmare Spinner 1 as soon as you qualify, then UM until it finishes then finish Nightmare spinner.

Nightmare Spinner would advance Wizard.

The_Blue_Sorceress
2008-03-12, 09:11 PM
1) Why the huge Charisma? Yes it governs Nightmare Spinner saves, is it really that important to put a 17 in it?

Most of the skills I'm using are Charisma base (Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, UMD, those are the main ones.


2) Improved Feint is worthless. Don't get it, and don't waste feats on it.

Yeah, looking at how things are going to pan out, I'm not going to get to be high enough level in Beguiler to get any of the nifty special abilities. I'll "fix" that one.


4) The thing about UM is that you have to focus on the Wizard side initially.

Is there a specific rationale for that? I've heard people say much the same thing, but I haven't seen anyone explain it.

-Blue

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-12, 10:35 PM
Most of the skills I'm using are Charisma base (Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, UMD, those are the main ones.

Right, but that 17 is giving you a +1 on some minor skill checks (where +1 doesn't matter all that much) as oppossed to in Dex giving you a +1 AC and +1 Init, which are both probably going to used every fight.


Is there a specific rationale for that? I've heard people say much the same thing, but I haven't seen anyone explain it.

The reason is the pre-reqs. Ultimate Magus is viewed as better then Mystic Theurge because you don't have to lose as much casting on one side to get the other one up. By using Practiced Spellcaster on the Spontaneous side you can advance Wizard almost every level. But only Wizard can do that:

If you want Beguiler as your main you have to take 3 levels of Wizard and 3 2 of Beguiler, then Ultimate Magus 10, and then start taking Beguiler levels (or something to progress them) This gives you your first level 3 spells at level 8, when everyone else has level 4 spells. Even if you set things up so that every level progresses Beguiler you still end up at level 15 with Beguiler 12/Wizard 9. That's 6th and 5th level spells, when Wizards have 8th. You are just a worse version of Mystic Theurge.

Compare that to favoring the Wizard where the low requirement for Spontaneous entry and Practiced Spellcaster can get you your first level 3 spells at level 6 or 7, and can end you with at 15 Wizard 13/Beguiler 8. Your extra class is still short, but your Wizard is only one spell level behind instead of two. Best of all, at level 20 you can actually have 9th level spells, though you were still short before then.

likrin
2008-04-02, 09:50 PM
well its not always going to be battles, there could be mostly roleplaying in that game, so chaisma is good for main rolplaying

Kurald Galain
2008-04-03, 03:44 AM
Well, I had a similar build once, so let's see...

I assume you're playing a half-elf for RP reasons? Because otherwise, the extra feat from humans (or int bonus from gray elves) may be worthwhile.

If you need to optimize your stats, I'd advice dumping strength and a point of Dex or Cha (probably the latter) to bump Con to 16.

Surprise casting isn't nearly as good as it sounds (because the bonuses are too small) so I would advise against getting Improved Feint (and, Combat Expertise).

Ultimate Magus is extremely playable, however note that the prestige class makes you a "Wizard with a few beguiler abilities", rather than a "beguiler wtih a few wizard abilities" (that or fall into the trap where you do neither too well) - unless you get your DM to allow UM with level-2 spontaneous and level-1 prepared spells.

Given your build idea, I'd suggest sticking with Nightmare Spinner. However, if you can fit it in, one level of Mindbender gives you permanent telepathy, which is pretty sweet.

Feats? You can make good use of Improved Initiative. If you boost your wisdom just a bit higher (or get an item for that), you can take Arcane Disciple to expand your spell list (with, say, summon spells) plus you can use that to take Reserve Feats. And metamagic is always useful. Don't take any physical-type feats, you're not a fighter. Don't take the skill-boosting feats either, because they aren't worth it.

Skills should be obvious. Depending on your build type, max out your stealth skills or your social skills.

Chronicled
2008-04-03, 06:38 AM
well its not always going to be battles, there could be mostly roleplaying in that game, so chaisma is good for main rolplaying

With the beguiler levels, you should be able to handle social skill checks easily, even without the extra +1 or +2 to the check--skill ranks are what's really important.

Putting the 17 into Dex or Con so that your character doesn't die as easily is probably the better choice.

KillianHawkeye
2008-04-03, 07:20 AM
2) Improved Feint is worthless. Don't get it, and don't waste feats on it.

I'm sorry, but I have to contest this. I realize that it's not very good for spellcasters, but Improved Feint is a necessity for making feinting in combat a somewhat viable strategy. It can make a big difference if you're a Rogue and you can't get into a flank. My 2cp.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-03, 07:31 AM
It can make a big difference if you're a Rogue and you can't get into a flank. My 2cp.

If you're a rogue and can't get into a flank, you should be looking into invisibility or blinking; both are effectively cheaper than improved feint, especially as combat expertise isn't all that useful.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 12:39 PM
Level 1 and going into Nightmare Spinner which loses a CL and Ultimate Magus.

I would recommend a CG Beguiler -1 with the Practiced Caster feat at some point, Specialist Mage -4 to personal taste, Wild Mage -1,then Ultimate Magus -6, then Nightmare Spinner.

The Practiced caster feat to Beguiler and Wild Mage -1 to your Specialist wizard will allow the six levels of Ultimate Magus to be applied +6 Wizard and +4 Beguiler. This will allow up to +2 meta to be applied to wizard side spells fueled by Beguiler spells and Quickened Beguiler spells fueled by level 4 wizard spells. P.S. I'd use the 2 flaw variant.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-03, 01:30 PM
For the first time ever, I'm saying this, but...Dump Enchantment and Illusion for your Wizard side when you specialize. You may even want to go Focused Specialist, banning Evocation, too.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-03, 03:32 PM
The Practiced caster feat to Beguiler and Wild Mage -1 to your Specialist wizard will allow the six levels of Ultimate Magus to be applied +6 Wizard and +4 Beguiler.

You don't need the wild mage to get six out of six UM levels towards wizard. Just take Practiced Spellcaster: at UM 1, your wizard CL is 4, and your Beguiler CL is 5; then at UM 4, your wizard and beguiler CL are tied, which means you get to pick.

Getting 10/10 UM levels towards wizard is best achieved through being a kobold, or illumian.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 04:33 PM
You don't need the wild mage to get six out of six UM levels towards wizard. Just take Practiced Spellcaster: at UM 1, your wizard CL is 4, and your Beguiler CL is 5; then at UM 4, your wizard and beguiler CL are tied, which means you get to pick.

Getting 10/10 UM levels towards wizard is best achieved through being a kobold, or illumian.

I agree UM-5 is a nice capstone which would not require Wild Mage -1 or a Chaotic alignment.