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BRC
2008-03-12, 06:30 PM
This is just a random Idea I had

Everybody know the standard chain of events

Great evil gets sealed away, prophecy states that it will return and get defeated by heroes who do yadda yadda yadda.

However, an Idea I had was this, Said Great Evil is smart, and Dangerously Genre Savvy. As he see's his defeat looming he sets it up so the prophecy will appear, he knows that when he shows up again everybody who wants to kill him will look to this prophecy for guidance. With this in mind, what do you make the prophecy.


Assume this is your standard Sealed Evil with army of minions.

Artanis
2008-03-12, 06:36 PM
This is just a random Idea I had

Everybody know the standard chain of events

Great evil gets sealed away, prophecy states that it will return and get defeated by heroes who do yadda yadda yadda.

However, an Idea I had was this, Said Great Evil is smart, and Dangerously Genre Savvy. As he see's his defeat looming he sets it up so the prophecy will appear, he knows that when he shows up again everybody who wants to kill him will look to this prophecy for guidance. With this in mind, what do you make the prophecy.


Assume this is your standard Sealed Evil with army of minions.
The most obvious one would be having the fake prophesy supposedly describe the process by which the great evil can be banished forever, while actually describing the process by which it can be set free into the world.

A corollory to this is to have the prophesy supposedly describe how to defeat the evil should it actually get free, while actually describing how to make sure the evil wins. Bonus points for "ultimate weapons against evil" that make the evil thing even more powerful :smallwink:

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-12, 07:16 PM
Lots of similar vein prophecies. The Dagger of ............ must be destroyed so the the great evil does not use it to kill ................. or destroy............ actually designed to destroy the Great Evil.

NEO|Phyte
2008-03-12, 07:21 PM
220: Whatever my one vulnerability is, I will fake a different one. For example, ordering all mirrors removed from the palace, screaming and flinching whenever someone accidentally holds up a mirror, etc. In the climax when the hero whips out a mirror and thrusts it at my face, my reaction will be "Hmm...I think I need a shave."

Nohwl
2008-03-12, 07:21 PM
how would you put in the fake prophecy? wouldnt bards or legends tell of how the evil was actually defeated? i suppose all of them would have to die and be replaced by bards who would sing of the fake prophecy in legends, but how would the evil thing do that after it was sealed away?

Swooper
2008-03-12, 08:15 PM
220: Whatever my one vulnerability is, I will fake a different one. For example, ordering all mirrors removed from the palace, screaming and flinching whenever someone accidentally holds up a mirror, etc. In the climax when the hero whips out a mirror and thrusts it at my face, my reaction will be "Hmm...I think I need a shave."
Very appropriate quote :smallbiggrin: Also, I love your avatar.

Thistle
2008-03-12, 08:15 PM
Matter the circumstances the prophecy will come true. A genre savvy villain would know that fighting fate just ends up losing them everything. Rather than spread false prophecy, the trick is turning the circumstances to your needs so that even a defeat is a win for you. The power of prophecy is their ambiguity.
Your Evil should study the prophecy. Defeat means many things and does not give a time limit on how long a defeat lasts. Maybe one of the heroes must take the sealed Evil's soul into their body where he can corrupt the brave fellow and return more powerful than ever, but under a different name because his former alias was "defeated". Maybe the heroes defeat him by sending him into a distant land, ripe for the conquering, while leaving their home territory safe (for now). A defeat might last only one day before the Evil's body reforms. Think of at least five ways to defeat the villian in a positive way.
Have several of these plans in place at once. If one fails fall back on a contingency. His minions should be the ones helping the heroes or paying someone else to help. Have the adventurers following the Evil's plan willingly. Have the minions kill off other people trying to actually defeat the villian just in case. Have a couple of the villian's payed minions killed to make the attacks seem realistic. They can then supply the information and equipment needed to "defeat" the Evil unhindered and without suspicion. As a last resort have nonpermanent reimprisonment, it's better than death.

Zeful
2008-03-12, 08:22 PM
how would you put in the fake prophecy? wouldnt bards or legends tell of how the evil was actually defeated? i suppose all of them would have to die and be replaced by bards who would sing of the fake prophecy in legends, but how would the evil thing do that after it was sealed away?

That's easy, hire several bards of your own to spread the fake rumour. Lots of bards. Promise their families a good life when you take over the world.

Ganurath
2008-03-12, 08:29 PM
Rule 220 from the Evil Overlord List is good, but to give it real substance add in the bottom of page 43 of PHB II, which details how to make a prophecy.

1. Don't use names, use titles.
2. Don't use dates that occur once, use seasons or other regular events.
3. Use metaphors. Instead of saying 'comes back from the dead' or 'comes out of hiding' say 'returns from darkness.'
4. Add a random, unconnected element. This is the fake weakness.

Guy_Whozevl
2008-03-12, 08:29 PM
Thistle had a point about how vague prophecies truely are. Nothing works out better than to have a very ambiguous prophecy that the party accidentally misinterprets to screw themselves over and empower the villian. If the prophecy talks about killing the "Lion of Sarshek," and the aforementioned kingdom is known for some particularly nasty lions, they might just kill the lions when, in reality, it is the KING of Sarshek that should be killed, as he plans to release the evil to the world. Alternatively, the killing of the lions weakens an ancient seal that keeps the villian in place.
PCs often overthing simple situations. Have the villain (and yourself) use that to your advantage through naturally confusing circumstances. A sign can be interpreted many different ways; a man bleeding to death can forshadow death for the PCs if they get involved, or detail information on a great hero/martyr who sacrificed much for his cause. Most importantly, however, have fun with it!

Yvian
2008-03-12, 08:38 PM
how would you put in the fake prophecy? wouldnt bards or legends tell of how the evil was actually defeated? i suppose all of them would have to die and be replaced by bards who would sing of the fake prophecy in legends, but how would the evil thing do that after it was sealed away?

One great thing about being a Litch is that time is on your side. You could set up ½ dozen fake prophecies.

One method. Find a good old one with is a bit sketchy. Just to pull out a few mundane ones from our world - fountain of youth, sunken ship full of gold, etc. Write up a fake document with specifics. Heck, do it like the Di Vinci Code. Lots of “clues” spread around. Write up the document that “explains” the clues. This is great because it looks much older than you are. Stash the document somewhere. Forgotten nook of a library, Let a foe or crazy cult “steal” it. “Sell” it to a bard or scribe. Dozens of ways.

horseboy
2008-03-12, 08:46 PM
The one time that evil got me was when they swapped out the Weapon of Powah (tm) with another sword. It wasn't cursed, wasn't magical. Was super heavy and made of an unknown metal. We took it with us. The next day our hair and teeth started falling out. :smalleek: :smallfrown:

Man that was slick.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-12, 09:00 PM
I think the key would be coming up with something which sounds vauge enough that it could be a prophesy, but specific enough that the characters are likely to interpret it one way.

I think the origin would be some guy who was actually a servant of the evil one, who either never was exposed or "switched sides" but didn't really at the end so as to prepare the world for his masters' coming once more.

What you want to do is set it up so that even the evil minions don't know it is wrong; that way, they can spend the campaign opposing the characters. Indeed, as they've spent MORE time on the prophesy, maybe the characters could capture and question one of these evil guys who knows more about what you're "supposed to do"; maybe even be sent with instructions specifically to stop it. The BBEG knows his minions are ultimately incompetant, or likely to fail with the might of the world against them, so is using them as kamikaze agents whose purpose is to unknowingly give the PCs the wrong information.

sonofzeal
2008-03-12, 09:02 PM
*cough cough head of vecna cough*

Ominous
2008-03-12, 09:14 PM
I hate radioactive swords. It was clever the first time, but it gets old fast.

Anyways, it depends on how the seal works. If the seal is of the "slowly fading over time" variety, I would have the prophecy be about something else completely. It shouldn't address me or my seal in any way. I'll have the PCs going on wild goose chases, so they're unprepared. The seal fades away, I'm free to begin my reign of evil, and the PCs all have red herring "super" weapons, ready to face a great red wyrm, when I'm a demon.

If the seal is of the "for all time" variety, I'm going to want a prophecy that helps me break said seal. The Legend of Zelda likes to do this with the whole "Ganon couldn't succeed at his plan until you yanked out the Master Sword, Link". Have some great and powerful artifact keep me at bay, and, when the PCs grab it, the seal starts weakening.

Prometheus
2008-03-12, 11:45 PM
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

Of course, that doesn't make for much of a plot. Instead flood the world with knowledge about the nature of the Ultimate Evil and how to combat it. Some of it is contradictory, but all of it competes in the sense that you can't pursue every weakens, combat strategy, and legendary artifact at once. This reaches a fever-pitch as the one thing everyone agrees on is how powerful and terrible this evil is- they are turned against each other as they falsely conclude that each other are corrupted or are spreading dangerous falsehoods. The punchline? The Ultimate Evil's greatest power is that of fear: you must realize that there are no tricks, no easy-outs, no safe-havens to combating this evil and confront it head-on if you ever hope to save the land from the wretches of despair.

Collin152
2008-03-12, 11:53 PM
I hate radioactive swords. It was clever the first time, but it gets old fast.

Anyways, it depends on how the seal works. If the seal is of the "slowly fading over time" variety, I would have the prophecy be about something else completely. It shouldn't address me or my seal in any way. I'll have the PCs going on wild goose chases, so they're unprepared. The seal fades away, I'm free to begin my reign of evil, and the PCs all have red herring "super" weapons, ready to face a great red wyrm, when I'm a demon.

If the seal is of the "for all time" variety, I'm going to want a prophecy that helps me break said seal. The Legend of Zelda likes to do this with the whole "Ganon couldn't succeed at his plan until you yanked out the Master Sword, Link". Have some great and powerful artifact keep me at bay, and, when the PCs grab it, the seal starts weakening.

Something like, The Great Evil cannot be slain until Excalibrand is drawn from the stone. It's true, because until you do, he's stuck behind a seal and is thus unkillable, but the sword gives you no particular advantage.

Ganurath
2008-03-12, 11:54 PM
Under moonless sky, the [villain pseudonym] will return from darkness.
[He/She/It/They] will herald their return with a rain of rooks upon the capitol grounds.
[His/Her/Its/Their] darkness will march upon the land to the drumbeat of lightning.
Only the truest light will cast the evil back into the darkness.

Icewalker
2008-03-13, 12:14 AM
220: Whatever my one vulnerability is, I will fake a different one. For example, ordering all mirrors removed from the palace, screaming and flinching whenever someone accidentally holds up a mirror, etc. In the climax when the hero whips out a mirror and thrusts it at my face, my reaction will be "Hmm...I think I need a shave."

Then shoot them!


As to the prophecy, one good one could be "retrieve this sword of uber-pure goodness from the temple which no evil can enter and come kill the bad guy" where he wants the weapon but can't get it himself. Or perhaps it is the only thing which can defeat him, so after the PCs get it and are heading for the villain, he goes around them and annihilates the good temple, which is now lacking it's only possible defense against him.

Mephisto
2008-03-13, 12:16 AM
The most obvious one would be having the fake prophesy supposedly describe the process by which the great evil can be banished forever, while actually describing the process by which it can be set free into the world.

A corollory to this is to have the prophesy supposedly describe how to defeat the evil should it actually get free, while actually describing how to make sure the evil wins. Bonus points for "ultimate weapons against evil" that make the evil thing even more powerful :smallwink:

Have you ever read Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn by Tad Williams? 'Cause ... yeah.

A Prophecy Twist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProphecyTwist) is a good element to use, because although it's been used often, prophecies are played straight a lot more often. Keeps them guessing.

Kol Korran
2008-03-13, 12:22 AM
Prophecies tend to be nasty little buggers, don't they? you can barely understand what they mean, you feel like you don't realy have much choice, and when you finally do realise what the bloody verse meant, you're allready in the hot pan.

seriously now- profecies don't have to be one sided ("the evil shall be vanquished, whether he likes it or not! if it has any complaints he can submit it in writing to the department of Ominous Portens, third cosmos on the left..") i always choose open ended profecies, with some sort of conditions.
but my ideas about your question:

- you can use the original prophecy, and just omit, or add, a word or to. it's amazing what A difference an erased "DON'T" make...

- if the Evil entity (or whatever), knows some info about those who are prophecised to defeat it (the PCs), then he could play an evil game, making them believe they must pit themselves against each other. add to your prophecy something on the lines "but one of the four braves will betray before the end, slaying a friend" or "but if they wish to defeat the evil, the chosen dwarven life must be spilled" or "the demon blooded tiefling will fail near the end, unleashing a demon of great power"...
this is especially effective if only one or two of the characters learn/ research the propecy. it could lead to interesting roleplay situations, and emphasise the "evilness" of the trapped entity (always strike at the players themselves. they usually couldn't care less about kingdoms burning... but he dares hurt US?) jsut make sure that the consequences are either reversible/ not fatal, or that there is some way to find out about the deception before it's too late. (or... let them play the trust game).

KBF
2008-03-13, 12:44 AM
If I look, in actuality, how a prophecy starts, it's incredibly easy to start a prophy just by NAMING a sword "Ultimate Evil's Bane" (for a Zelda reference) and have some corrupt priest make a big deal of placing it in the temple for "when death spreads across the land, and the true hero saves us all."

And for added effect? Make it extra magical and awesome...

...Against evil-that-isn't-you.

Jothki
2008-03-13, 01:01 AM
Throw in something about the hero(es) being betrayed by their greatest ally. Paranoia is always good.

ZeroNumerous
2008-03-13, 01:38 AM
Make the prophecy about how MacGuffin Axe can only be used to destroy The Great Evil(TM), and can only be wielded by the righteous. Throw in a tidbit about how the righteous must undergo a great trial about slaying an evil dragon whilst under a grave handicap.

Then it turns out that the MacGuffin is a -4 Unholy Axe that gives any Good creature a negative level. And the dragon they slew was the Lawful Good Guardian of The Great Evil's seal.

Quincunx
2008-03-13, 07:05 AM
Write a true prophecy. Set up a five-person chain to repeat it one to another with a few minutes' delay between repetitions, no note-taking allowed. Circulate the end result instead of the true prophecy. Repeat for extra versions, skewed as naturally as if inept bards had been embellishing them for centuries.

For manufactured prophecy, darkness is cliche to the point of pain. Why isn't the Ultimate Evil ever brown? I adore the rain of rooks though--hurrah for deceptively short words with multiple meanings. Dead birds, slain noble houses, Meteor Swarm? Arc: arch, boat, rainbow? Mount: mountain, horse?

How do you magically detect the truth of a prophecy's claims? How do you get your party terrified to even attempt using divination magic, or better yet, any magic against the Evil Overlord?

sun_tzu
2008-03-13, 07:21 AM
In this story I'm writing, the heroes receive a vision of the future where they beat the villain. They try to follow it, but he mops the floor with them...then stages things to make it look like they beat him, while making sure this is what they see in the past.

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-13, 07:40 AM
Here's one way to go about it.

In the past, ancient evil thing fought the good thing or things. He couldn't be destroyed, so instead was sealed up.

The false prophecy states that <insert number here> keys will unlock evil thing, and the world will be destroyed. It then describes what each of those keys are. Hideously evil objects, and people. Makes sense that evil things break the bonds right?

Well they evil things ARE the locks. They are evil because they hold the evil. They need to exist in order to keep the really bad stuff held back.

So, the player characters are really the "keys". And if you want to go so far, the prophecy can talk about how the "Keys" must be destroyed in order for the evil to stay sealed.

It also might be that there's something special about the player characters. And they are the only ones who can break the seal.


There may be some way that the party can either "beat it forever", if they study the nature of the various "locks". They might be able to derive epic spells. Or, seal evil thing again if they unintentionally let him out.


Probably, the right way to do this is that if the players catch on to the plan, they basically win. Though, evil thing might just change plans. Do give them bonus points though if they catch on :P

random11
2008-03-13, 07:44 AM
This is just a random Idea I had

Everybody know the standard chain of events

Great evil gets sealed away, prophecy states that it will return and get defeated by heroes who do yadda yadda yadda.

However, an Idea I had was this, Said Great Evil is smart, and Dangerously Genre Savvy. As he see's his defeat looming he sets it up so the prophecy will appear, he knows that when he shows up again everybody who wants to kill him will look to this prophecy for guidance. With this in mind, what do you make the prophecy.


Assume this is your standard Sealed Evil with army of minions.


I once used a similar idea.
The bad guy simply collected many prophecies in a book (none with any connection to him), published it under a fake name and spread several copies.

When the time came, he made it look like that book is important by hunting down the copies or tearing specific pages of the books, sending the heroes to a wild goose chase on a completely useless book.

To make things fun, there was also a nice twist: The book actually DID contain a relevant prophecy, but the bad guy didn't know it was about him (after all, all prophecies sound the same). So when the heroes found a copy of the book with the missing pages, they actually held the answer in their hand, but went looking for the missing useless papers instead...

Roderick_BR
2008-03-13, 02:20 PM
It reminds me of the Mistical Quest game for SNes (no, it's not a real Final Fantasy game, they should sue the company that named it Final Fantasy). The villain created a false prophecy to make people eternally wait for an hero that would never come. The twist is that the main character actually manages to defeat him in the end, even after the villain reveal that the prophecy is a pile of bull.
The mirror example is a good one. Spread rumors of how an evil being (like himself) was defeated in others kingdoms with some specific power. Whenever he makes a public execution, let his spys spread rumours that the guy being executed dared to hit him with something that hurt him. Make up names of hard to find weapon and magics that could defeat him.
And then pile on defense against these kinds of things.

It'll at least force the PCs to rethink their strategy after the first beating.

Telonius
2008-03-13, 03:02 PM
I would use something I like to call the Croesus Method. This method is named after Croesus, the last king of Lydia. Before embarking on a war with the Persians, he consulted the Oracle of Delphi. He was told that the war would destroy a great empire. He went charging off to war, and lost horribly. The empire he destroyed was his own.

Secondary example: Darth Vader. Anakin was prophecied to bring balance to the Force. Well, when you've got thousands of Jedi and only two Sith...

Lesson: the truly genre savvy evil guy won't set up a fake prophecy at all. He'll set up a prophecy that turns the truth on its head so subtly that nobody notices until it's too late.

Artanis
2008-03-13, 03:32 PM
Have you ever read Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn by Tad Williams? 'Cause ... yeah.
I hadn't, actually. Sounds interesting though :smallbiggrin:


A Prophecy Twist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProphecyTwist) is a good element to use, because although it's been used often, prophecies are played straight a lot more often. Keeps them guessing.
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