Most Attacks at Level 1

[Yeril]

You heard me, whats the most attacks you can get as a ECL 1 Character

Whether its a Rapidshot Two weapon fighting Axe wielder who slashes twice, steps back and hurls his axe in their face, or kobold twf'ing spinning barbarian who cuts, slashes and chops, then drops his weapon and jumps on their face for a bite claw claw combo, and heck, throw in a tail smack to the face feat from races of dragon.

I'll leave it to you guys. :smallamused:

[dman11235]

Non-serious answer: Pun-Pun. He does have every ability, and I'm sure he has the ability to make infinite attacks per round. And he is level 1 now.

Serious answer: Probably a Thri-Kreen using the savage progression in CPsi. Five attacks: four claws and a bite.

[Zocelot]

I know you said it non seriously, but no ability gives you the power to make infinite attacks. That would be broken.

[DrizztFan24]

If I recall correctly Pun-Pun can decide that attacks against him or by him automatically fail or confirm...thats broken.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I know you said it non seriously, but no ability gives you the power to make infinite attacks. That would be broken.

But the ability to give yourself as many hit die as you want, and the ability to imbue yourself with permanent Divine Power, as well as a combination of all the abilities to gain extra attacks that anyone else could possibly have probably produces somewhere on the order or 4 billion attacks.

[Flickerdart]

Pun-pun is supposed to be broken.

Hm, so Thri-keen Monk with Two-Weapon Fighting and Flurry of Blows wielding 4 Kamas. How many is that, 6? 7?

[dman11235]

Combine that with the fact that Pun-Pun can grant himself any ability: it does not say that the ability needs to exist. Bam. He has the ability to make infinite attacks/round With his infinite strength score. And inability to fail at anything.

And Zocelot: Pun-Pun is the embodiment of broken.

EDIT: Is that level 1? Then it is still 5 attacks: no monk levels.

[MorkaisChosen]

The Thri-Keen Monk would need Multiweapon Fighting, but they have to use the savage progression so at L1 they couldn't be a Monk, so we're on 5. Plain monk can only manage 3- TWF and Flurry.

[Person_Man]

Variant Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) Whirling Frenzy (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedClasses.html) Barbarian with Flaws (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedFlaws.html), allowing him to take Improved Unarmed Strike, TWF, and Draconic Tail (Draconomicon).

TWF = 2
Claws = 2
Bite = 1
Tail = 1
Whirling Frenzy = 1

That's 7 attacks at ECL 1. But the attacks are all at a big penalty, so they're not very useful.

Instead of Barbarian, you could be a Monk, and get the extra attack from Flurry. Though I prefer Barbarian, because you could also take the Complete Champion Lion Totem variant, and get Pounce at level 1 also (giving up Fast Movement).

Remember, you can always use natural attacks as secondary attacks (taking a -5 penalty) IN ADDITION TO your normal attack routine, as long as you're physically capable of doing so (you can't use a claw attack if you're holding something in your hand, thus the need for Improved Unarmed Strike or a Monk level).

[Irreverent Fool]

If I recall correctly Pun-Pun can decide that attacks against him or by him automatically fail or confirm...thats broken.

Pun-Pun is broken? Understatement of the year award.

[Keld Denar]

Given what circumstance?

1st level wizard with Precocious Apprentice for the 2nd level spell Whirling Blade (SC).

Whirling Blade allows 1 attack vs each target you designate in a line out to its maxium range. So, 2 targets per 5' incriment out to 60'? for 120 attacks.

Optimal?
No.
Likely?
No.
Legal?
Sure!

[KoDT69]

Halfling Fighter with Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, and ye olde bag-o-daggers maybe?

On the whole Pun-Pun thing, how the heck does he just get any ability he wants? I understand the familiar and sharing abilities, pumping stats, and whatever... but the way I see it, he could only gain abilities that were attached to other racial forms. He is still a level 1 druid that can pump his stats to nigh infinity. Where is this "designs his own ability to get at will" clause at? I'm just curious. And just another point, does it take time to morph into those other forms? That would really counter his chain of action if it took 3 weeks to make his goal.

[Project_Mayhem]

I'm pretty sure theres a loop where he turns into some snake god thing that grants it's followers ANY ability.Then he does the thing with his familiar and gives it too himself. I dunno.

[Draz74]

On the whole Pun-Pun thing, how the heck does he just get any ability he wants? I understand the familiar and sharing abilities, pumping stats, and whatever... but the way I see it, he could only gain abilities that were attached to other racial forms. He is still a level 1 druid that can pump his stats to nigh infinity. Where is this "designs his own ability to get at will" clause at? I'm just curious. And just another point, does it take time to morph into those other forms? That would really counter his chain of action if it took 3 weeks to make his goal.

Read the Sarrukh's Manipulate Form ability. It says you can grant another reptilian creature an ability. It puts no limits on what kind of ability this should be. Not "any racial ability." Any ability.

And the latest version of Pun-Pun -- the one that can get going at Level 1 -- isn't a Druid. He's a Fallen Paladin.

[AKA_Bait]

Read the Sarrukh's Manipulate Form ability. It says you can grant another reptilian creature an ability. It puts no limits on what kind of ability this should be. Not "any racial ability." Any ability.

And the latest version of Pun-Pun -- the one that can get going at Level 1 -- isn't a Druid. He's a Fallen Paladin.

Can you link me to that build?

[dman11235]

Wizard, not paladin. That's how I last saw it. If you use the druid method, you need to be level 14. Wizard gets you the Pazuzu wishes @1. And the necessary familiar. Can't remember how they got infinite stats (as opposed to the arbitrarily high ones originally), possibly just using the drowning trick.

EDIT: Heh, it was at the top: Pun-Pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801).

You will have to dig through it to find the level 1 fix and infinite stats thing, but that's the base.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Thri-kreen doesn't qualify, since it has racial HD and LA. (Unless there's a monster class for it that gives it four working limbs at first level.)

I can't see a way to get more than three at ECL 1 (TWF and a natural attack, like a bite - or a claw / claw / bite set of natural attacks); PC races tend to pay through the nose for multiple limbs.

I guess TWFing throwing axes with Rapid Shot (I guess you could quibble over whether a thrown melee weapon is a "ranged weapon" though) and Quick Draw would also get the three.


Also, Pun-Pun is still the worst meme ever to hit the D&D community.

[dman11235]

Savage progression in CPsi, like I said. Also there have been other ways posted.

[melchizedek]

Two-Weapon fighting, Darfellan (Stormwrack) Monk should give you four without having to worry about the LA issue.

[Idea Man]

Pun-pun is a lie. If your DM lets you pull a fast one on Pazuzu, a demon lord, then you can make him. Otherwise, I haven't seen a way to do it before shapechange. Druids don't get the supernatural abilities of wild shaped creatures they turn in to, so don't qualify as a shortcut.

[bugsysservant]

A Variant Kobold monk who takes the feats aberrant blood, another aberrant one, and the one that gives you two tentacles (deepspawn?). Hmm, dual wields kamas, which you drop and then make claw attacks (is that legal?).

1 unnarmed strike
2 kama
2 claw
2 tentacle
1 bite.

Hmm, if you can do the kama drop, that's eight right there. If not, still 6 at ECL 1.

[MorkaisChosen]

Can't do kama drop. However, dual-wield Unarmed Strikes- it's legal even with your hands full of claw attacks, so you can do 8 there.

[dman11235]

Pun-pun is a lie. If your DM lets you pull a fast one on Pazuzu, a demon lord, then you can make him. Otherwise, I haven't seen a way to do it before shapechange. Druids don't get the supernatural abilities of wild shaped creatures they turn in to, so don't qualify as a shortcut.

You're using the wish to get a candle of invocation. Also: the divine minion template+MoMF+Assume Supernatural Ability (SS) gets it @5.

And you cannot dual-wield unarmed strikes. You only have one of them, no matter how many appendages you have. It's a long debate over on the wizards site at least, I haven't seen it show up here yet (I joined two days ago). Each side uses the following arguments:
You have two fists/You only have one unarmed strike
You have an off-hand unarmed strike/it was an example of TWFing with a kama (FAQ)
and it just goes on from there.

[Keld Denar]

Oh come on....are my posts invisible? 120 attacks at level 1 and not even a word. All are considered melee attacks, so its no different than running up and smacking everyone, except not actually running up to them.

[dman11235]

Not invisible, just not necessary to elaborate on. And it's not really attacks. It's a spell. And in order to get 120 attacks, you need the right number of enemies, and they need to be in a line.

[Tsotha-lanti]

And you cannot dual-wield unarmed strikes. You only have one of them, no matter how many appendages you have. It's a long debate over on the wizards site at least, I haven't seen it show up here yet (I joined two days ago). Each side uses the following arguments:
You have two fists/You only have one unarmed strike
You have an off-hand unarmed strike/it was an example of TWFing with a kama (FAQ)

It's shown up here repeatedly over the years. The obvious and logical conclusion was that yes, you can TWF unarmed, since it's just a mechanic that exchanges attack bonus for number of attacks.

(A bit tangentially, Conan d20 explicitly supports all-unarmed TWF, and even has a feat for it. Kudos to them for not leaving that one open.)


And I don't understand why anyone would think you get more attacks by dropping your weapons. That's not how the rules work. You've already made your attacks, you don't suddenly get new ones by ditching your weapons. And you can't TWF with two weapons and make an unarmed attack...

[dman11235]

That last part is not entirely true. If you have multi-weapon fighting, you can attack with your held weapons and then attack with kicks or head-butts or pelvic thrusts as your unarmed strikes. But you need three or more arms to qualify for MWF. The first half of that paragraph is true though.

[Tsotha-lanti]

That last part is not entirely true. If you have multi-weapon fighting, you can attack with your held weapons and then attack with kicks or head-butts or pelvic thrusts as your unarmed strikes. But you need three or more arms to qualify for MWF. The first half of that paragraph is true though.

Oh, yes - better to say that the number of attacks is limited to # of arms + # of other natural attacks. I was referring to an attacker with two arms.

[MorkaisChosen]

What about TWF unarmed strikes and natural secondary attacks? That needs empty hands if they're claws.

[Nebo_]

I know you said it non seriously, but no ability gives you the power to make infinite attacks. That would be broken.

Wrong, actually. Read the Warshaper.

[dman11235]

??? I'm not exactly sure which warshaper gives you the ability to make infinite attacks. The morphic weapons does take a move action. If you had infinite move actions, you could get infinite tentacles though. And that would be the only one you could get infinite of: you have one head, two feat, two hands, etc.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

??? I'm not exactly sure which warshaper gives you the ability to make infinite attacks. The morphic weapons does take a move action. If you had infinite move actions, you could get infinite tentacles though. And that would be the only one you could get infinite of: you have one head, two feat, two hands, etc.

Did you notice the part where it doesn't apply a limit on the number of natural attacks you can create with that move action? Or any kind of Duration?

[Darrin]

That's 7 attacks at ECL 1. But the attacks are all at a big penalty, so they're not very useful.


Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus (which, oddly enough, has a lower LA than the not-giant octopus): 9 attacks.

6 tentacles (two get turned into legs)
1 bite
1 TWF
1 whirling frenzy/flurry of blows.

Unfortunately, 2 template HD so it's not exactly ECL 1.

[Paul H]

Hi

Must say that the question itself needs to be better defined. Whilst a Warshaper cannot be ECL1, nor likely are multi-armed PC's. It doesn't exclude spells, attacks of opportunity, for example.

Whilst a character can use a scroll of Fireball, that doesn't use an attack roll, so doesn't qualify.

Whirling Blade is a spell that can be used from scrolls, wands etc by a 1st lvl character, but requires attack rolls against each target. So a Dex 20 Elf Warmage 1, with Combat Reflexes, using scroll of whirling blade could theoretically have 120 attacks, plus another 5 AoO's. (Max 125).

A rogue could set off a trap that attacks everyone in a room, but that's the trap attacking, not him.

Cheers
Paul H

[Squash Monster]

If I recall correctly and you allow stuff from Dragon magazine then you can pick up a bunch of the utterly ridiculous Hair Blades for as many attacks as you have hairs on your head.

[Cruiser1]

1st level wizard with Precocious Apprentice for the 2nd level spell Whirling Blade (SC).
Whirling Blade allows 1 attack vs each target you designate in a line out to its maxium range. So, 2 targets per 5' incriment out to 60'? for 120 attacks.
Take a couple flaws so you can also have the Sudden Enlarge feat. Use it when casting Whirling Blade and your spell now goes out to 120', for up to 240 attacks in a single round. :smallsmile:

[dman11235]

@Darrin: And that's why the giant one has a lower LA. The HD.

@Chosen: note how I said that if you had infinite move actions you could do it. Though you may be limited to the number of tentacles of the creature with the most tentacles, depending on how you read it (not a very good reading).

@Squash: yeah, there is that one. Though you may need MWF to use it effectively, I can't remember, and if so you'd need to have 3+ arms (to qualify for MWF). But the savage TK would work for this.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

@Chosen: note how I said that if you had infinite move actions you could do it. Though you may be limited to the number of tentacles of the creature with the most tentacles, depending on how you read it (not a very good reading).

But you are wrong (http://www.xkcd.com/386/).

In one single move action you can create 4 claws, 1 bite, and an infinite number of tentacles. That's one move action, not an infinite number. You can then keep all those tentacles for the rest of the day (or your entire life if you are a Doppleganger.)

[dman11235]

It doesn't say that it takes a move action per weapon? I thought it did.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

It doesn't say that it takes a move action per weapon? I thought it did.

As a move action a Warshaper can grow natural weapons such as claws or fangs...These weapons need not be natural weapons the creature already possesses.

It also gives horns and gore attacks as examples, showing that claws/fangs is not exclusive, not that it matters because you could theoretically grow infinite claws instead of infinite tentacles.

I actually played a Warshaper once, Doppleganger Warshaper that transformed into something, then grew 2 claws/horns/a bite/and four tentacles. I needed the extra attacks playing with the +4 LA, but I got to have fun rolling all sorts of dice, not sucking too much in combat, and I could read peoples mind. (Went Mindspy too.)

[Nebo_]

My friend made a Warshaper build that he called Rhinocerapthulu. 'twas awesome. Even more awesome was the picture he drew.

[Chronos]

All this time and nobody's mentioned a human fighter with Great Cleave? In the right situation, and if the dice are friendly to you, you can attack everything in reach, which could be as many as 52, if you're enlarged (thanks to your level 1 wizard party-mate) and wielding a spiked chain (with a -4 for nonproficiency, since you don't have enough feats). Granted, you'll probably miss well before then, and break the streak, but it's possible.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

My friend made a Warshaper build that he called Rhinocerapthulu. 'twas awesome. Even more awesome was the picture he drew.

Truly it must have been a site to behold.

Also, only because of your picture Nebo:

Monkey Grip the Spiked Chain with Powerful Build, they will stack to give you oodles of extra reach!

[Nebo_]

Monkey Grip the Spiked Chain with Powerful Build, they will stack to give you oodles of extra reach!

Oh, if you insist.

MONKEY GRIP DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

[Ascension]

Nor does Powerful Build work that way. Even though you can use large weaponry, it doesn't give you large reach... unless you're a mountain raging goliath barbarian, in which case you are large.

[Nebo_]

Nor does Powerful Build work that way. Even though you can use large weaponry, it doesn't give you large reach... unless you're a mountain raging goliath barbarian, in which case you are large.

Looks like someone completely missed the joke. *looks around* How awkward...

[Ascension]

Look, I got the joke, but this is like the fifth time today I've seen that meme. It's overused. Also, I was afraid that the original poster of the suggestion might not realize that powerful build doesn't do that if he didn't realize that monkey grip doesn't do that. I was trying to help.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Look, I got the joke, but this is like the fifth time today I've seen that meme. It's overused. Also, I was afraid that the original poster of the suggestion might not realize that powerful build doesn't do that if he didn't realize that monkey grip doesn't do that. I was trying to help.

I realize both, which is why it says right in the post, "just because of the picture."

It was the first time I've seen it all day, and to have a picture of Morbo next to it was nice.

Anyway, look in any reach related thread and you'll see me arguing with every single person there that Titan sized weapon/=Titan sized reach. Look at the Eldritch Glaive for the wee folk thread.

And I also know that Monkeygrip doesn't work that way. If it came up, I'd argue over that too.

[Paul H]

All this time and nobody's mentioned a human fighter with Great Cleave?

Hi

Can't have Great Cleave at ECL 1 - check the prereqs (+4BAB).

We could also spend all day looking up spells from scrolls. (Widened Evards Balck Tentacles, anyone? Attack everything in a 40' radius)!

Cheers
Paul H

[Chronos]

Can't have Great Cleave at ECL 1 - check the prereqs (+4BAB).Huh, I never noticed that before. I stand corrected.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Hi

Can't have Great Cleave at ECL 1 - check the prereqs (+4BAB).

We could also spend all day looking up spells from scrolls. (Widened Evards Balck Tentacles, anyone? Attack everything in a 40' radius)!


If we're counting "attack rolls" rather than "attacks" then you can go even simpler than that. Have an elf Fighter make one attack every round for the rest of its natural life. Bam, you have made several million attacks at level one. Just not all in the same combat round.