OOTS #539 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ganurath]

Ah... There's the Belkar we know and love. Exquisite.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Best time to click on, I checked a few minutes ago as well

[dogmac]

hehe, Celia. So you can rationalise it a little easier.

I don't think those two are going to be able to control young Belkar now they are out of the city. Poor Celia is going to be going "Oh Gods!" about a dozen times a day.

[fang_q]

The comic seems to be numbered 339 instead of 539, and the original 339 has disappeared of the archives.

:haley: The resistance isn't at war with a gnome!
:belkar: Well of course not, not anymore. He's dead.

:smallbiggrin:

[nosignal]

Heh I like his roundabout "everybody wins" logic. I'll just kill him to get the thing he doesn't need anymore because he's dead.

*waits for someone to defend his actions as neutral behaviour*

[Lunaya]

*pats Haley* I think I have a solution. Haley can compromise by only strangling one of them. *cough*Celia*cough* :smallamused:

[Kyeudo]

Belkar is getting more evil by the day. I love it!!

Celia is a great character, and I'm glad she's getting fleshed out. She's almost as good a straight man as Roy.

[ArlEammon]

Absolutely hilarious.

This flies in the face of every argument that pretends Belkar is non-evil.

[Porthos]

Just a heads up, Rich. The comic is pointing to http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html, not http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html. And the title needs to be corrected as well. :smallsmile:

As for the strip, glad to see Belkar is still living the dream. :smallwink: And I am loving Celia even more with each passing strip. :smallcool:

[Querzis]

Well Haley should strangle him. Keeping Belkar was a good idea when Roy was around and when there was enough party members to keep him in line but now, no matter what Haley say or do, Belkar is gonna end up killing as much defenseless and innocent people as evil enemy soldiers.

Seriously, I know hes funny but its just kinda stupid for any good guy to keep him alive now. There was only one jailer in the world who could keep Belkar from killing innocents and now Roy is dead so Belkar is now back to what he was before joining the Order, a bigger threat for everyone then any of the evil monster you could make him kill. Beside, its not like they cant just resurect him AFTER they bring Roy back...well, if Belkar hasnt become the lord of the Abyss and dont want to come back by then.

Anyway, Celia is now officially my favorite female character, if she keep up like that shes going to take Shojo place as my third favorite character.

[turkishproverb]

Hm.. I'm going to have to pray to Roy now.

[chionophile]

bwahahahahahahah! "Fox News". Brilliant.

[turkishproverb]

Well Haley should strangle him. Keeping Belkar was a good idea when Roy was around and when there was enough party members to keep him in line but now, no matter what Haley say or do, Belkar is gonna end up killing as much defenseless and innocent people as evil enemy soldiers.

Seriously, I know hes funny but its just kinda stupid for any good guy to keep him alive now. There was only one jailer in the world who could keep Belkar from killing innocents and now Roy is dead so Belkar is now back to what he was before joining the Order, a bigger threat for everyone then any of the evil monster you could make him kill. Beside, its not like they cant just resurect him AFTER they bring Roy back...well, if Belkar hasnt become the lord of the Abyss and dont want to come back by then.


Read 8 Bit Theater. The death of the psychopathic evil party member is never good for the universe.

Witch Looks into crystal ball: Hey, where'd my lotto numbers go? All I'm getting is "the destroyer is manifest"

[DrivinAllNight]

i've always trusted fox :), and was that a Gnome Illusionist??? And why is it that Belkar seems like the smartest character lately?? One good thing though, he wore the gnomes hat instead of wearing the gnome as a hat!!!

[FoE]

Nine out of ten Chaotic Evil PCs approved of this comic. We murdered the other one and ate his skin. :smallamused:

[TheCountAlucard]

Wow, I was just thinking to myself, "I wonder if the comic's updated. It's about that time," and here it is. :smallsmile:

Oh, and for some strange reason, I can't access the real 339 in the archives...

[Justyn]

I wonder how one goes about becoming a deity in the OOTS-verse... It might make Roy's defeating of Xykon easier:


:roy: : This time I have something that you don't have, Xykon!

:xykon: : Skin?

:roy: : Divine Rank.

[MolotovH]

Saint is a template, not a PrC... :smalltongue:

Just wanted to nitpick, hee hee :smallbiggrin:

Also, does anyone else suspect that the gnome's name is an anagram?

[Voyager_I]

The link's taking me to 339 instead of 539. Entering the number directly returns the same result. Help?

[The Giant]

The link's taking me to 339 instead of 539. Entering the number directly returns the same result. Help?

There was a problem. It's fixed now.

[Querzis]

Read 8 Bit Theater. The death of the psychopathic evil party member is never good for the universe.

Witch Looks into crystal ball: Hey, where'd my lotto numbers go? All I'm getting is "the destroyer is manifest"

Belkar isnt an epic magic user, lots of more powerfull CE adventurers died before and beside, you are not even supposed to keep your level when you die (though I dont think Rich use that rule). Beside, demons ends up killing devils and themselves more often then they kill mortals so yeah, its definitly good for the universe.

[silvadel]

Uhoh -- the kilonazi rating just moved up a notch...

I do not think Haley has the ability to control Belkster... At least not in ways she is willing to use.

[turkishproverb]

I wonder how one goes about becoming a deity in the OOTS-verse... It might make Roy's defeating of Xykon easier:


:roy: : This time I have something that you don't have, Xykon!

:xykon: : Skin?

:roy: : Divine Rank.


Lol. Now THAT's great.

[Yendor]

Belkar will probably find some excuse to kill the donkey eventually. And serve him for lunch.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Uhoh -- the kilonazi rating just moved up a notch...

I do not think Haley has the ability to control Belkster... At least not in ways she is willing to use.

That's one of the problems with Chaotic types - they just don't know how to properly oppress anything :smalltongue:

[Tundar]

Take that, Fox news. Hahaha!

[tenguro]

Best line was "was it?Oh my. Well I suppose thats what I get for getting all my information from fox news."

[Krytha]

No idea why Haley says "What did you do?" when its pretty clear he just murdered a gnome. This is Belkar we're talking about here, lady!

Fox news haha ha

[factotum]

I'm beginning to find Celia quite irritating--it was obvious Haley disapproved of killing the gnome, so why she felt the need to come out with the "so you can rationalize it easier" line is beyond me. I hope she isn't going to be this sanctimonious for her entire stay on the Prime Material!

[High-Chancellor]

roy totally needs to take that "saint" prestige class.


Not that I have any idea what it's requirements are, or what it does.

It sounds like it would help against Xycon though.

[WarriorTribble]

LJ's RSS feed still points to comic 339, must be a delayed reaction thing I guess.

Hmm... totally agree with kill Belkar (though we all know it'll never happen). So, Haley and possibly Celia vs. Belkar. Who'd win?

[Killer Munchkin]

"Ooooo! A candy bar!"

Elan? Is that you?

[John Campbell]

The Belkster's just getting a head start on 4E. Gnomes are in the Monster Manual, not the PHB. That makes them monsters, not characters. Monsters exist for PCs to fight. Therefore, gnomes are for killin'. Q.E.D.

Besides, he had a donkey.

[Psychomancer]

Hm.. I'm going to have to pray to Roy now.

Me too! I wish to join the Cult of Roy.

Would Paladins of Roy be too much?

[TheCountAlucard]

Well, Roy IS Lawful Good, so I imagine it'd be easier to have paladins of Roy than paladins of Belkar...

[Aquillion]

I'm beginning to find Celia quite irritating--it was obvious Haley disapproved of killing the gnome, so why she felt the need to come out with the "so you can rationalize it easier" line is beyond me. I hope she isn't going to be this sanctimonious for her entire stay on the Prime Material!But she was still angry at Haley for rationalizing the earlier death of the hobgoblin. She was making fun of her for that, saying, essentially, "Well, you rationalized that, why not make a few changes and use the same rationalization here?"

[snafu]

Uhoh -- the kilonazi rating just moved up a notch...

Killing one guy shouldn't even show on a meter calibrated in kilonazis. I mean, one kilonazi, right? The level of evil perpetrated by ONE THOUSAND NAZIS. Stabbing some random gnome and nicking his donkey hardly even shows up on that scale...

[Gopher]

Heh. Fox news. You have to admit, in the first panel Belkar has a point. Seems like there are some difficult times ahead. I wonder how many strips the months of comic time it will take to get there translate to? Is it really going to be real life months, or longer? Or is the camera going to flash back to Roy for awhile and we'll skip over all that?

[WarriorTribble]

Killing one guy shouldn't even show on a meter calibrated in kilonazis. I mean, one kilonazi, right? The level of evil perpetrated by ONE THOUSAND NAZIS. Stabbing some random gnome and nicking his donkey hardly even shows up on that scale...Depends, I mean most members of the party were civilians who never killed or held a weapon.

[turkishproverb]

Me too! I wish to join the Cult of Roy.

Would Paladins of Roy be too much?

Sure. Welcome Aboard.

wanna be a bishop?

[Laurentio]

I'm beginning to find Celia quite irritating--it was obvious Haley disapproved of killing the gnome, so why she felt the need to come out with the "so you can rationalize it easier" line is beyond me. I hope she isn't going to be this sanctimonious for her entire stay on the Prime Material!
Because Celia is a woman. And as Marge Simpson told to her daughter Lisa: "You a woman. You can keep a grunge forever".
That's the long way to say "Celia is a B***H". And a lawman.

Laurentio

[The Vanishing Hitchhiker]

Oh, Haley, you explained it completely wrong. Should've said that if Belkar hadn't stabbed the suspicious hob, their cover might have been blown and they'd have had to kill all the hobgoblins. Celia would probably take that explanation a little better.

[dish]

It would seem that gnomes make up the entire audience for Fox news. Suddenly everything makes sense.

[Haruspex]

Well it was a random encounter with treasure, so Belkar as an adventurer was perfectly justified in his actions. Celia doesn't know any better cos she's not an adventurer, and Haley's upset cause the gnome helped them by giving directions.

[Fingolfin]

:smallsmile: Now that's one evil PC. Didn't see that one coming, good for the resistance though' :smallamused:

[RosesOnConcrete]

Ah yes, the Belkar method of problem-solving: Apply Dagger Until Dead.

Celia's last line is gold.

[Shadowcaller]

Hehe if Belkar would have been in my party in DnD and did just that, I would have kicked him out. (yeah most of my characters are lawfull).
But he is pne of the funniest characters in the comic, I cant argue with that and he provides with lot of humor to the comic.

[Castamir]

First, we got a yet another proof that Mr. Scummy's humanoid companion kicketh mayor backside.

Second, what good is gnomish "Speak with Animals" ability for if non-awakened critters have INT scores in the range of <political reference scrubbed>.

[Hell Puppi]

Hmmm I wonder if I could convince my GM to let me be a paladin of Roy....
:smallamused:

[Ceaon]

I liked the little gnome hat. Reminds me of David the Gnome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_of_David_the_Gnome).

Also, watch out for the horde of people trying to justify Belkar's actions. "It wasn't Chaotic Evil, it was Chaotic Neutral, because..."
Or am I acting too bitter now? :smallamused:

[gooddragon1]

I always suspected fox news to be unreliable...

[Thufir]

I'm now slightly tempted to make Roy into a deity in my campaign setting. Sadly, I don't think there's much demand for a God of Sarcasm...

[fluffybunny]

Holy gods of the North! Rich has taken a few epic level feats in Crafts - Hilarious Image.

There were so many things in todays comic that had me laughing, sniggering and smiling. Fox news... yip yip yowl!

Yes, The Belkster is the man!

/fluffy

[Castamir]

:haley:: [...] Belkar didn't do anything wrong.
:belkar:: I didn't? Huh.

That's priceless...

[holywhippet]

Ignoring the fact that Roy is back in the afterlife and not haunting them any longer, I wonder if Belkar would still get sick if he spoke the activation word for the MoJ?

[banjo1985]

Hehe classic Belkar with his stubborn logic that somehow lets him explain away why he needs to kill everything. Great strip again!

[Irbis]

There!

Belkar wins one more time! :smallbiggrin:

[Corestimah]

Ignoring the fact that Roy is back in the afterlife and not haunting them any longer, I wonder if Belkar would still get sick if he spoke the activation word for the MoJ?

A very good question. I'm inclined to believe that Belkar would be just fine, but I could see it happening the other way as well.

I wonder what this new insight into the adventurer mindset will do for Celia's view of Roy? Might she try to convince him to retire from adventuring once Xykon is destroyed?

[Phase]

Ah... poor Solt Lorkyurg, we didn't now him well...

:frown:

[pendell]

Hehe if Belkar would have been in my party in DnD and did just that, I would have kicked him out. (yeah most of my characters are lawfull).
But he is pne of the funniest characters in the comic, I cant argue with that and he provides with lot of humor to the comic.

WAS.

He WAS one of the funniest characters in the comic.

In this strip? He's crossed the line, IMO, from psychopath comedy sidekick to just plain psychopath. There was no reason for him to murder that gnome, and that's just what he did. It's not funny.

Fox news WAS funny.

Cold-blooded murder ... at least in this context ... is not. IMO.


I don't think Haley is going to be able to hold this little party together. CE Belkar and LG Celia, with Haley sharing one axis in common with both of them ... I don't think she can do it.

And if she has to choose between them, she'll choose Belkar. I'm not entirely sure how that will be justified in context, but Belkar is part of OOTS and Haley is not. Besides, Celia is not an adventurer. Belkar is.



Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gerli]

What Belkar did was Self Defense... maybe he reads The Sun
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article902014.ece
(Not better than Fox News i think.. ) :smallbiggrin:

[Saph]

Heh. I loved this one, just for the abrupt shift as Belkar murders the gnome.

This is the reason that parties containing LG and CE members don't work very well in practice.

- Saph

[Quartermoon]

Because Celia is a woman. And as Marge Simpson told to her daughter Lisa: "You a woman. You can keep a grunge forever".
That's the long way to say "Celia is a B***H". And a lawman.
Laurentio

:smallannoyed: Does it bother anyone else that this essentially says all women are B's?

And I have to mention that 10 panels hardly constitutes "forever". :smallamused:

[Ossian]

Heck...they could have asked for a ride. I mean, the gnome wasn't going to Azure City anyway. As much as I enjoyed the Fox news (big LOL) the cold blooded murder was a bit too...belkarian.

[Irbis]

Um, one little nitpick: the rogue who 'liberated' hundreds of thousands of gold from innocent people cannot see the Belkar's point? When he actually has one?

Weird.

Of course, killing him was a bit overboard, but honestly, they need his Stuff and Donkey more than he does. They are Shining Heroic Adventurers Saving The World; he is one almost-nameless npc. It has always been this way, might and magic making right. :smallbiggrin:

[HOLEkevin]

I have to admit that as I was reading Solt's dialog, I was sitting here thinking, "Now that Haley's given him the go-ahead, I wonder if Belkar's gonna whack that gnome." So there were obviously no consistency problems for me when it happened. I hadn't even considered the donkey at the time, which made it a totally "logical" murder from a CE point of view.

Of course, Celia's offer to help Haley rationalize the killing was hysterical, being both a legitimately "helpful" offer, (it looked like to me) and clearly demonstrating Celia's opinion on the matter of all rationalizations for any murder. Very clever.

[rosebud]

It's curious to see Elan being channeled -- both by Solt's hat and Belkar's "Oooo." Poor Haley, she's so caught up in the absurd she fails to see her beloved boyfriend.

As for the party, this strip was such an setup (I was both dreading the obvious kill and amazed Belkar left him alive long enough to actually provide useful information) that I wouldn't make any assumptions on the party dynamics. I do love an earlier comment on how Haley could have explained things to make it palatable for Celia (see, we didn't have to kill all the hobgoblins).

I do like Haley's notion of praying to Roy. Maybe that could help with communication. Couldn't hurt.

As for lovely Celia, she catches on fast, so I wouldn't worry about her. And she does have a vicious sting when it's required.

And yes, the Fox was delightful. I just want to see Mr. Scruffy licking some catnip among the spices and giving a meow.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Fox news and Celia's cynical attitude (in a lesser way) are incredible proofs of how Burlew can still add new thing in the humor area to the comic after 500+ strips.

[LtNOWIS]

Um, one little nitpick: the rogue who 'liberated' hundreds of thousands of gold from innocent people cannot see the Belkar's point? When he actually has one?

Weird.

Well, as a chaotic good(ish) rogue, she probably only stole from rich, greedy nobles and the like.



Of course, killing him was a bit overboard, but honestly, they need his Stuff and Donkey more than he does. They are Shining Heroic Adventurers Saving The World; he is one almost-nameless npc. It has always been this way, might and magic making right. :smallbiggrin:

Cold, soulless logic might say that stopping Xykon is worth killing some innocents. But I don't think any stretch of logic can call this non-evil.

As for "they should kill Belkar," slitting his throat while he slept would not be kosher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html).

I'm not really shocked. We already knew he's evil, he kills for the sake of killing and he's killed innocents before. This was pretty unexpected, but not really a change of character.

[EntilZha]

Well, this strip should eliminiate ANY remaining, lingering doubts about Belkar's alignment, lol!!!

[DeathQuaker]

Well, Haley can easily rationalize murdering Belkar now, if she wanted to...

[kukn]

The past few strips have been amazing! I have to love the strong alignement characterisation of Belkar, such a great moment! And Celia's biting satire and Haley's frustration, and the gnome himself, and the adventurer logic and and...

Great strip!

[The Vanishing Hitchhiker]

Sadly, I don't think there's much demand for a God of Sarcasm...

The best part is reading that sentence sarcastically.

Anyway, Roy would also be the God of Keeping Party Members in Line, and God of Not Killing Your Moronic Party Members.

[DaveJoha]

Wow. I know Belkar has done a whole lot of evil things, but for some reason this one didn't come across as funny to me. I sat there just looking at the screen for a minute contemplating whether or not he was going to be long for the Oots world after that killing. Everytime I see Belkar do something like this I usually giggle a bit, but then I stow it in the back of my mind to remember just in case the day arrives when he finally gets his. Don't get me wrong, I like Belkar as a character. He's probably my third favorite of the bunch.
But I can't see Karma, which usually sides with him not swinging back in a direction that is tremendously away from him. Maybe a Gnome posse will come after him. Good job Rich! I love your comic and I love it when the writing elicits a response.

[shylocxs]

HEY! Didn't I get an infringement penalty for bringing up political stuff? Hehe... Fox News... I loved that. And the candy bar (where's that peanut butter when you need it). And the hat.

Please, please, please, please let Belkar keep the hat.

[Scutatus]

I'm afraid I've got to go with the "not funny" party on this one. Rampaging on Undead, Ninjas and hobgoblins are one thing, but this guy was a total innocent. Since when was murdering innocents funny?

Belkar's finally irreffutably crossed the line.

However, Rich is a master story teller. For some time now we've been getting a lot of Belkar's antics, witnessing his plummeting morals and his increasingly out of control tendencies. It's almost as if there is a deliberate storyline going on: "Belkar's plummet to the Dark Side."

One can only hope that Belkar's transgression is a deliberate vehicle on Rich's part and that it isn't to be just a throw away gag to be forgotten. I'm pretty much expecting there to be major repercussions to this.

[Mauve Shirt]

I was glad that Haley told Celia to lay off Belkar for killing hobgoblins, but the rest of the strip was really meh. Fox news was amusing. Killing the gnome was not particularly funny, nor was it important to the story.

[Scutatus]

I think it was vitally important. I think it is the story, in the sense of Belkar's decline and fall. Which I think has been a deliberate story arc for some time now. But we'll see.

[CRAZYMONGOOSE]

Fox news + schkunk = lots of lols

Random killing in D&D is fun as hell.

[brilliantlight]

I'm beginning to find Celia quite irritating--it was obvious Haley disapproved of killing the gnome, so why she felt the need to come out with the "so you can rationalize it easier" line is beyond me. I hope she isn't going to be this sanctimonious for her entire stay on the Prime Material!

Agreed, particularly when Haley is RIGHT. For the vast majority of the time hobgobs are evil beings who enjoy oppressing others. They might be a step up from the SS but not much more then that. The gnome on the other hand was most likely NOT evil.

[brilliantlight]

The Belkster's just getting a head start on 4E. Gnomes are in the Monster Manual, not the PHB. That makes them monsters, not characters. Monsters exist for PCs to fight. Therefore, gnomes are for killin'. Q.E.D.

Besides, he had a donkey.

Gnomes are not in the PH anymore in 40.0? Why the hell is WOTC getting rid of races/classes?

[Scutatus]

Random killing in D&D is fun as hell.

Yeah sure, so what's next? Killing virgin maidens? Killing puppies? killing babies? That's funny?

No, sorry, this was a deliberate plot device: Belkar finally goes too far - he murders an innocent. Cue the consequences. It has to be.

[Vercingex]

I also feel the killing of the gnome wasn't funny- just gratuitous (although the lines in reaction to the killing of the gnome were good).

As funny as Belkar can be, by this point I really, really, really, want to see him get some sort of comeuppance for his evil ways (maybe a bit of random cruelty leads to the MoJ triggering or something)

although storywise, I can't see a random MoJ trigger. If it does go off, it will have to be when belkar does something approaching good, ie saving someone's life

[MythicFox]

For some time now we've been getting a lot of Belkar's antics, witnessing his plummeting morals and his increasingly out of control tendencies. It's almost as if there is a deliberate storyline going on: "Belkar's plummet to the Dark Side."


Not to nitpick, but I'm wondering where you get the idea that Belkar's morals are still plummeting as if they didn't hit rock bottom a long time ago. The only thing that's kept Belkar from joining Xykon in such a way as to almost immediately replace the MitD is his lack of intelligence and Roy's grip on him as backed by the Mark of Justice.

This isn't a story of Belkar's descent to the Dark Side, this is a story of Haley only now realizing just how hard it is to keep ahold of his leash.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Always enjoy the strips but that Fox News Joke had me in stiches!! :smallbiggrin: Yip yip yip :smallbiggrin:

[Leroy Jenkins]

Gnomes are not in the PH anymore in 40.0? Why the hell is WOTC getting rid of races/classes?

The Gnome will be available as a playable race in the Monster Manual! And they get a Lair!!! :smalltongue:

[Kilarny]

Boy to they need Roy back...
...and Belkar Bitterleaf makes me :amused: !

*begins chanting for more, more, more OOTS!*

:smallbiggrin:

(regarding comments about Belkar becoming 'more evil')
Oh, and...Belkar has never had anywhere to 'fall' to. He's always been evil/bored. Cracks me up.
I'm a lazy DM; I don't allow people to play any of the Evil alignments. Too much trouble adjudicating the Evil. In fact, there's one person in my campaign who I'm never going to let play Chaotic Neutral again. Ever.

[3Power]

I'm somewhat disappointed. I don't remember Belkar doing something this evil "on-screen" so to speak, and it looked as though he had been starting to change for the better, only to snap back to square one.

[Scutatus]

Not to nitpick, but I'm wondering where you get the idea that Belkar's morals are still plummeting as if they didn't hit rock bottom a long time ago. The only thing that's kept Belkar from joining Xykon in such a way as to almost immediately replace the MitD is his lack of intelligence and Roy's grip on him as backed by the Mark of Justice.



I totally agree, Belkar was indeed always capable of those most darkest of deeds, but he was also always restrained, restricted, contained. As you say, the only things that have kept Belkar in check all this time are Roy (and to an extent, V) and the Mark. But that's the point. They aren't around now. So now we see what Belkar is really capable of unchecked. Now there is nothing to stop him being all he wants to be, doing all he wants to do.

Now finally, Belkar is truly free to be as evil and as psychotic as he wishes. Yes, he would have plummeted like this long before if it hadn't been for the Order, but he never was truly without them before. Clearly, Haley just isn't enough to keep him in line. He only now has complete freedom so it's only now that we get to see the full extent of his plummet. So it's now that (I presume) we get his "fall" story.

[SteveMB]

Belkar is getting more evil by the day. I love it!!

Definite uptick on the kilonazi chart to where he'd be by now without Roy's influence.... :smalleek:

[Scutatus]

The "Hero falls to evil, joins evil but is then redeemed or/and given righteous justice" is a commonly used device in story telling. With all of Rich's knowing winks to the audience I really wouldn't be surprised if we're now on that path.

[truemane]

Belkar's expression in that final panel makes me laugh out loud. "Ooooh! Candy Bar!"

Ha.

I love Belkar.

[Kish]

Yeah sure, so what's next? Killing virgin maidens? Killing puppies? killing babies? That's funny?

No, sorry, this was a deliberate plot device: Belkar finally goes too far - he murders an innocent. Cue the consequences. It has to be.
...What the hell? Belkar had a whole life before he met the OotS, in which he murdered many innocents. On the Origins of PCs spoiler:
He was in prison for knifing people in a bar right before he joined the Order.

It is possible--even quite likely, I think--that Rich put this in to show more evidence of Belkar's evil to people for whom him murdering goblins who are trying to surrender, and low-level barbarians in what was supposed to be a non-lethal combat, is not enough. But this isn't a fall, because it's not a change. Belkar is still the same monster he's been from the beginning.

[Blaznak]

Fox News. Worse pun ever :)
(Of course, I like bad puns...)


As to Belkar's morality, doesn't this show his innate fairness and desire for balance? Indeed, isn't his attempt to follow the morals of the rest of his party and their good orientation? Now had he slaughtered TWO gnomes... then the balance would not have been maintained :)

Later!

[zountouh]

:belkar: You have to admit though,belgar does have a point about the donkey.Besides he probably wanted to be the only small character in the script,so hail belkar:belkar:

[Scutatus]

Some of us haven't seen that Origins storyline. :) But I would suggest that knifing someone in a bar fight isn't necassarily evil (self defence? anticipation of a threat ala Han Solo?) Like so many of his deeds there could be a plausible defence for the actions that put Belkar in jail. I couldn't say for sure without knowing the strip.

Sadly, this time, there is no such defence.

I can truly believe that Belkar was psychotically evil before the Order. Ok. So this isn't so much a "fall" as a "return to the fall." The end result is the same. Without the Order he is out of control, no better than all the minions of darkness that he slaughters.

And we know what happens to the Minions of Darkness...

One just can't have a psychotically out of control immoral murderer without a sense of right and wrong. It just doesn't track with the whole "good vs evil" schtick if the heroes are evil - worse than the "bad guys" themselves. Belkar is no longer a "hero" and there has to be repercussions to that. There has to be.

[pendell]

I think it was vitally important. I think it is the story, in the sense of Belkar's decline and fall. Which I think has been a deliberate story arc for some time now. But we'll see.

The problem with 'decline and fall' is that Belkar is already rock bottom. I mean, this is a guy who doesn't have an angel on his shoulder any more. This is a guy whose evil is measured in kilonazis.

I've been reading SOD ... and to tell you the truth, I don't see any real difference between the human Xykon and Belkar. They both have an absolute contempt for any life that isn't their own.

And yes, I agree with another poster. There *have* to be consequences for this. I can't see how any good character could not react to the casual murder of an unarmed commoner in cold blood. Something needs to be done about it, immediately.

But I think this is a significant plot point in the development of the party. Roy -- LG -- has been able to do the unthinkable in the D&D world. Keep together a party that spans the entire alignment axis from LG to LN to CG to CE. A big part of that was Roy's ability to restrain Belkar from violence. Now Roy is gone, and Belkar is acting on his impulses. If this problem is not solved, the OOTS will permanently fracture.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[RandomLogic]

Fantastic. I like how Haley is filling in for Roy with sarcasm now! "I wonder if the gods would be offended if I just prayed to Roy for the strength not to strangle them both". Awesome, just awesome.

[pendell]

Question.

What does "PC" and "NPC" mean in OOTS? The Giant has already explained that there is no DM or players behind the OOTS the way, say, the Knights of the Dinner Table are behind the Untouchable Trio in the KODT comic strip. Nonetheless, there is a definite distinction between PC and NPC. And evidently the characters can tell the difference.

How does that work?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Maddgief]

I did not like this one at all. Has Belkar shown tendencies to just slaughter indiscriminately in the past? I can't recall him ever killing innocence before.

It's totally out of character.

[shakes019]

Actually, I think the funniest part of this strip was Belkar wearing the hat.

On the more serious side, I think the point of this strip was to show Haley facing yet another facet of Belkar's evil nature. He is very evil, but she needs him for melee combat support. When Roy was in charge, I'm sure she noticed that he was a pain in the butt, but now that she has to deal with him, I'm sure she's learning about the joys of leadership.

With regard to the 4.0 changes. I picked up the Races & Classes preview book, and it's kind of interesting. Gnomes get moved out of the PHB list of playable races to make room for Dragonborn and Teifling, and one of the Eberron races.

[Kish]

And yes, I agree with another poster. There *have* to be consequences for this. I can't see how any good character could not react to the casual murder of an unarmed commoner in cold blood. Something needs to be done about it, immediately.
All issues of Belkar's "fall" aside, here's one point on which I can express an immediate opinion:

From Haley's perspective, nothing about Belkar has changed. She will probably just complain; she may--may--come up with something to help her control Belkar temporarily, but will probably do nothing but grumble. Belkar's status in the Order is the same as it was before this strip came out.

A few strips should be enough to determine who's right here.

I did not like this one at all. Has Belkar shown tendencies to just slaughter indiscriminately in the past? I can't recall him ever killing innocence before.

It's totally out of character.
:smallsigh:

[Pyscho Druid]

Saint is a template, not a PrC... :smalltongue:

Just wanted to nitpick, hee hee :smallbiggrin:

Also, does anyone else suspect that the gnome's name is an anagram?

How about:

Gory Skull Rot ?
:smallsmile:

[yoshi927]

Belkar and Celia make quite a pair after they get over the whole bloodthirstiness vs. pacifism divide. :smallbiggrin:

[Glyde]

"Saint" is a template, not a prestige class.

*ducks*
(not so ninja'd)

Great strip though XD

[strayth]

bwahahahahahahah! "Fox News". Brilliant.

I really liked this. Yip yip yip yip yip vidjamagames are evil yip yip..

[Balathustrius]

Wow, I bet Belkar just slipped down to Chaotic Neutral now!

:smallbiggrin:

[Irbis]

Well, this strip should eliminiate ANY remaining, lingering doubts about Belkar's alignment, lol!!!

Well, hardened, gritty CN would have done the same :smallamused:

[Shalewind]

Seems a lot of people didn’t find this one funny. I’m neutral on it, it appears to be a plot building comic. I don’t think Rich made this one as just another jibe about Belkar’s alignment. It might be just another rung in the ladder of rising tension but I think it’s more likely a sign that things are coming to a head.

Belkar is now quickly slipping into the projections that the Celestials predicted he would without Roy’s influence. As it gets worse (and it will get worse) even Haley won’t be able to tolerate it and something will have to give. Somehow, I don’t think a return to the previous equilibrium will be even remotely possible. Rich’s storytelling is awesome so I’m sure whatever resolution is ahead of us will be good and possibly surprising.

Belkar is evil. He’s acting in character. He will need to be dealt with.

[Pronounceable]

To everyone thinking Belkar has crossed the line: WAKE UP! He was there right from the start. What do you think CE means?

It was only Roy that kept him from wanton slaughter. He's an evil, bloodthirsty bastard. He's no different from Xykon (both of whom are great BTW).

The REAL potential problem is NOT Belkar inflicting harm upon innocent bystanders. It's Belkar inflicting harm upon Haley and Celia. He's a psycho they can't control who might turn on them any moment. Haley is no match for him in battle (at most she can escape alive), and Celia is fodder. Kill'em both, bury Roy in some pit and terrorize the nearby countryside... That'd be a marked impovement for Belkster.

[HUMVEE Driver]

That.
Little.
Bastard.

[Keldaria]

Well Haley should strangle him. Keeping Belkar was a good idea when Roy was around and when there was enough party members to keep him in line but now, no matter what Haley say or do, Belkar is gonna end up killing as much defenseless and innocent people as evil enemy soldiers.

Seriously, I know hes funny but its just kinda stupid for any good guy to keep him alive now. There was only one jailer in the world who could keep Belkar from killing innocents and now Roy is dead so Belkar is now back to what he was before joining the Order, a bigger threat for everyone then any of the evil monster you could make him kill. Beside, its not like they cant just resurect him AFTER they bring Roy back...well, if Belkar hasnt become the lord of the Abyss and dont want to come back by then.

Anyway, Celia is now officially my favorite female character, if she keep up like that shes going to take Shojo place as my third favorite character.


Oh common now, give the little guy a break.. That gnome is only the second thing he's gotten to actually kill in a months , The Hobgob last comic being the first. So give belkar a break he's just expressing himself agian now that he's finally outside the city (besides everyone hates gnomes). With all that built up need for senceless killing I'd say your lucky they were about to stop him from slaughtering the hobgobs last comic.

Oh and word to the wise i'd roam around away from towns and such for awhile because belkar will likly be killing anything he see's on sight for the next 6 comics or so

[Rastaban]

So funny! The candy bar had me rolling. Does belkar get to keep the hat?

[Shalewind]

Well, hardened, gritty CN would have done the same :smallamused:

I’d say a hardened gritty CN character “could” have done the same. That’s the problem with CN characters they “could” do anything. You can’t nail down what they “would” do because it’s impossible to predict.

[Person_Man]

That was hilarious. Bravo.

RE: Violence = Funny?

I'm a pacifist. I've marched in peace protests. I would let a stranger kill me rather then defending myself. I've let someone punch me in the face at a bar, only to get up, tell him that he could clearly beat the hell out of me, and then buy him a beer, even though he was there alone and I was there with my Navy buddies. I've worked in a domestic violence shelter. Violence is a horrible, soul destroying part of human existence. So please understand the context of what I'm about to say.

Imaginary violence can be funny. Especially when its between stick figure. Lighten up.

I think Belkar is hilarious, and that he's at his most hilarious when he's killing someone or something. There is no need to "punish" him for doing something that's at the core of his characterization. OOTS is not a morality tale. It's not the cannon for a religion. It's a webcomic, and its a damn good one that I love to read. No one is going to read OOTS and think that killing is ok because Belkar does it.

I don't believe that it is helpful to attempt to make Rich or anyone else feel bad about it. The only possible outcomes are that people ignore you, get angry with you, or agree with you. And if they agree with you, writers just end up censuring themselves, which means that there are fewer such jokes for the rest of us to enjoy, potentially depriving us all of its humor and wit.

[/rant]

[Ascension]

I’d say a hardened gritty CN character “could” have done the same. That’s the problem with CN characters they “could” do anything. You can’t nail down what they “would” do because it’s impossible to predict.

This is a pet peeve of mine. The idea that Chaotic Neutral means you can "do anything" and it'll be in character. That may be the application of CN, but I'm pretty sure it's not the intent, and it's certainly not how I play CN characters. I can feel myself going into rant mode, so I'll stop here.

[SPoD]

I think most of you are missing the point here.

Belkar is actually TRYING to act within Haley's morality here, he just literally does not comprehend it. She just told him it was OK to kill someone, then, a moment later, she says it isn't. Which is it? Is it cool to stab people or not? Geez!

The point here is that to Belkar AND to Celia, all lives are equal. To Celia, it is reprehensible to kill any sentient being, regardless of species. To Belkar, it is hilarious to kill any sentient being, regardless of species. It's only Haley who judges each life differently based on their race. She's stuck between two absolutes who are in total agreement on the principle, and thus her position is exposed as hypocrisy. It's a very powerful statement on relative morality, actually.

At any rate, Belkar didn't "go too far this time" because he was under the (mistaken) impression that Haley had just given him a free pass to kill. Haley, for her part, is probably going to chalk this up to another instance of her not being a very good leader. I doubt very much that we'll see any repercussions for this killing, but I also suspect that this is a step along a downward spiral to a point where Belkar DOES do something that is irrevocably over the line--something Roy could have prevented.

[Migodnar]

I completely understand Belkar's thinking about killing the gnome...am I a psycopath??! :smalleek:

[Lunaya]

although storywise, I can't see a random MoJ trigger. If it does go off, it will have to be when belkar does something approaching good, ie saving someone's life

It seems that everyone's expecting Belkar to get hit by the MoJ for doing something that he usually does. I don't really see this happening.

I have to agree that if the MoJ does go off, it will probably be because Belkar was doing something noble (whether intentionally or not). The irony would be a lot funnier, and that way Belkar could say, "Well, screw this! That's the last time I try to do anything nice!"

[brilliantlight]

Boy to they need Roy back...
...and Belkar Bitterleaf makes me :amused: !

*begins chanting for more, more, more OOTS!*

:smallbiggrin:

(regarding comments about Belkar becoming 'more evil')
Oh, and...Belkar has never had anywhere to 'fall' to. He's always been evil/bored. Cracks me up.
I'm a lazy DM; I don't allow people to play any of the Evil alignments. Too much trouble adjudicating the Evil. In fact, there's one person in my campaign who I'm never going to let play Chaotic Neutral again. Ever.


You're right Belker is evil PERIOD and has been for a long time. I am also reluctant to allow CN characters as they have too much a tendency to squabble.

[Querzis]

The point here is that to Belkar AND to Celia, all lives are equal. To Celia, it is reprehensible to kill any sentient being, regardless of species. To Belkar, it is hilarious to kill any sentient being, regardless of species. It's only Haley who judges each life differently based on their race. She's stuck between two absolutes who are in total agreement on the principle, and thus her position is exposed as hypocrisy. It's a very powerful statement on relative morality, actually.

Thats a really good point. The only reason Belkar hasnt killed Haley and Celia is probably just because he think they are hot.


Oh common now, give the little guy a break.. That gnome is only the second thing he's gotten to actually kill in a months , The Hobgob last comic being the first. So give belkar a break he's just expressing himself agian now that he's finally outside the city (besides everyone hates gnomes). With all that built up need for senceless killing I'd say your lucky they were about to stop him from slaughtering the hobgobs last comic.

Oh and word to the wise i'd roam around away from towns and such for awhile because belkar will likly be killing anything he see's on sight for the next 6 comics or so

I'm not sure if this is supposed to be sarcasm or not, you are telling me to leave him alone because he will kill a lot more innocents? Well I definitly agree with the fact that he would have killed all the hobos and a lot more defenseless people if he was alone...which is why I'm saying any sane good character should capture or kill him (capturing someone is more good but we all know no prison will ever hold Belkar more then two hours.)

[Impikmin]

THIS is the OOTS I know and love! Hurrah!

[MyrddinDerwydd]

As someone who is normally totally lawful good,

You Rock Belkar!

And it is in no way OOC for Belkar either, for everyone that keeps thinking that he's gotten "more evil" - he's been bored out of his mind in the city not being able to kill anyone for months, remember!

[Shalewind]

This is a pet peeve of mine. The idea that Chaotic Neutral means you can "do anything" and it'll be in character. That may be the application of CN, but I'm pretty sure it's not the intent, and it's certainly not how I play CN characters. I can feel myself going into rant mode, so I'll stop here.

Perhaps I was a bit harsh. I didn’t mean to imply that “all” CN character adopt this strategy and certainly there are good angles for a CN to play off of besides this. But please understand, many people assume CN means “act however I want” so I can totally understand your pet peeve. I most definitely agree it is not the intent of the CN alignment.

It’s a pet peeve of mine that CN be applied to any action as proof that the character is acting CN. Hence my above post and comment.

Belkar, in my opinion, is acting evil because he is evil. Justify it however you want, I don’t think I can be convinced that killing an innocent and unarmed gnome simply because he had a donkey you needed is anything but evil.

[Gri]

I completely understand Belkar's thinking about killing the gnome...am I a psycopath??! :smalleek:

No, but I wont be hiring you as a babysitter anytime soon, you pedophobe you.

[Morgan Wick]

There was a problem. It's fixed now.
What system do you use for putting up and organizing the strips? Because you seem to have a lot of boneheaded, easily avoidable "problems"...

I smell Belkar starting #540 bound and gagged a la #401. That, or strapped to the front of the cart while Haley cracks a whip. (Though that would probably push her closer to Chaotic Neutral...) If that doesn't happen, I could see a Celia-Haley argument on what to do with Belkar. Clearly, though, Haley is going to move to Celia's side - she can't afford to risk Belkar killing every traveler they come across. (Question is, does she think she can afford taking on any real threat by herself?)

I thought this strip was funny simply because the timing and the dialogue was mostly played for funny, especially Celia's line at the end. (Which I guess makes me CN.) But as funny as these strips have been, I keep anticipating a return to Celestia, V/Elan/Durkon, or Team Evil. And I'm starting to get a sinking feeling that we won't be returning to V/Elan/Durkon until a LOT has happened to them.

For some reason I didn't see any link for a new strip on the sidebar after reloading at several different points, even this morning; it took until this afternoon. Is IE7's cache that far-reaching? (I was reloading #418)

[ling]

:haley: what part of we "are not at war with the traveling gnomes" dont you understand!?

:belkar: well of corse we are not at war with him, he is dead now.

[RubberBandMan]

What REALLY sold this strip for me is that Belkar didn't change experession at all from seeing the Gnome, to killing him, to defending his actions. Its like he was debating if skim milk or Whole milk would change the taste of cooking things. He only gets that eyebrow when he's fighting with Haley.

Its one thing to just murder someone, its another thing to do it with a straight face. It really shows how crazy he is, that he just does it without thinking, and doesn't care one way or another.

[slb]

The Belkster as usual ...

And I really love Celia: she's truly good because a good person would not want to kill somebody even if he's evil, still she's really witty and not sanctimonious at all.

[CRAZYMONGOOSE]

Yeah sure, so what's next? Killing virgin maidens? Killing puppies? killing babies? That's funny?

No, sorry, this was a deliberate plot device: Belkar finally goes too far - he murders an innocent. Cue the consequences. It has to be.
Can't see your point.

If you choose to play an evil alignment, you have to be evil. If you choose to be a paladin, then go and save the world, but evil guys do evil things.

If karma hits belkar in the... butt, that's for him to take in consideration. Remember that its a ROLE playing, if I decide to kill a nun while playing is only because I chooce as my character would. If he thinks killing a poor gnome just for the kicks... then what? Belkar doesn't pays attention to many characters... his best buddy right now is a cat, there you can see how interested is he in people. Why would a gnome be different? Also, he pas pushing the cart, simple solution, get a mule. Oops, the gnome has one...

There will be consecuenses, of course. Your DM wouldn't forget an action like that because, as you said, it would be usefull as a plot device. But you can't blame Belkar for being BELKAR. He is quite simple minded, really. He might not need to fall lower, maybe he hasn't fall at all, because he has been always like that. You are trying to put him in a level where the group should have been surprised for this killing (why??). Roy wouldnt have accepted this killing. But I guess this is NOT the time for facing this matter.

I can't understant why is it so difficult to accept belkar being belkar. As far as I remember, he has been like that always. That's why many people likes him.

(of course, this is my own point of view... please read it as it is)

[David Argall]

It's not funny.

Cold-blooded murder ... at least in this context ... is not.

Right [giggle]. Belkar [he he] acting in his normal depraved manner [snicker snicker] and exhibiting his so-called reasoning [ho ho ho] is not funny [LOL].

Hilarious, maybe.



Belkar is actually TRYING to act within Haley's morality here, he just literally does not comprehend it. She just told him it was OK to kill someone, then, a moment later, she says it isn't. Which is it? Is it cool to stab people or not? Geez!
Belkar is trying to justify it to Haley's morality. He had no intention of acting within it, except by accident. He was just acting like Belkar. There was a reason to kill the gnome and it was not obviously immediately disastrous to kill him. So ...


The point here is that to Belkar AND to Celia, all lives are equal. To Celia, it is reprehensible to kill any sentient being, regardless of species. To Belkar, it is hilarious to kill any sentient being, regardless of species. It's only Haley who judges each life differently based on their race. She's stuck between two absolutes who are in total agreement on the principle, and thus her position is exposed as hypocrisy. It's a very powerful statement on relative morality, actually.
No. Haley here is pictured as the reasonable position and the other two as different types of fool. So the moral would be in favor of relative morality.


I doubt very much that we'll see any repercussions for this killing,
Probably none, but it's not impossible that 540 will have Belkar ask a "what could possibly go wrong" question about the killing, maybe "Who's going to find out?" just before the party rounds a corner and finds itself in a gnome village [making the MOJ a threat to Belkar again], where the recently departed, and his donkey, are well known...


but I also suspect that this is a step along a downward spiral to a point where Belkar DOES do something that is irrevocably over the line--something Roy could have prevented.
As noted, there is no obvious downward he can go.
Origen
"You should be rewarding me for the restraint I showed in not killing the bartender and the barmaids...Well, not killing all the barmaids."
"You should put up some kind of a sign, like "thank you for not killing more than five of us."
Roy "I don't want you to kill anybody."
Belkar "You know, no matter how many times people tell me that, it never starts making sense."

Then we have his use of deadly force whenever he has the chance, and his threats to use deadly force when he is not free to act yet.



What does "PC" and "NPC" mean in OOTS?
How does that work?
However produces the most laughs.
PC and NPC are very common game terms, so they get used in the strip in a way vaguely like they would be used in the game.

[Justin_Bacon]

The point here is that to Belkar AND to Celia, all lives are equal. To Celia, it is reprehensible to kill any sentient being, regardless of species. To Belkar, it is hilarious to kill any sentient being, regardless of species. It's only Haley who judges each life differently based on their race. She's stuck between two absolutes who are in total agreement on the principle, and thus her position is exposed as hypocrisy. It's a very powerful statement on relative morality, actually.

Uh, no.

For starters, Haley didn't say anything about the victim's race. That's Celia blatantly misrepresenting her position. Haley talked about the war. The hobgoblin Belkar killed was a the member of an aggressive military unit that attacked Azure City without provocation.

The gnome, OTOH, is not a member of an aggressive military unit that attacked Azure City without provocation.

So there is absolutely no hypocrisy in Haley's position. That doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but blatantly mischaracterizing it -- just like Celia blatantly mischaracterized it -- is inappropriate and dishonest.

[Piedmon_Sama]

This was honestly the first strip I laughed at in a long time. I don't know what it was, but if I had to say I'd guess the jokes have felt too "all ages" lately and the comic had somehow lost its edge. (That's not quite what I mean, because I know you can keep things PG and still be funny). Still, this was a nice aside to remind us that Belkar is a murderous bastard and recalled the awesome classic strips.

The "Fox News" panel induced a genuine groan though.

[Holammer]

Nobody commented on the excellent artwork on the Fox in this strip. There's lots of detail and use of colour gradient. Stuff we don't see regularly in the strip. Rich raises the bar for himself here.
Anyway, If an actual fox delivered news to me, I'd put more trust innit than the faux news on TV.

[Animefunkmaster]

I lol'd at the gnome hat.

[Quorothorn]

Saint is a template, not a PrC... :smalltongue:

Just wanted to nitpick, hee hee :smallbiggrin:

Also, does anyone else suspect that the gnome's name is an anagram?

Actually, I'm pretty sure there IS a "Risen Saint" PrC, in The Book of Exalted Deeds IIRC.


Anyway, this is vintage Belkar, baby, just like in OtOoPCs. "Hey, they were the ones who brought fists to a knife fight." "It wasn't a 'knife fight' until you started stabbing people!" "Exactly!"

I must say, Celia was a bit of a ***** in that last panel, IMO. Seriously, girl, Haley is NOT a speciest (I agree with Justin Bacon and David Argall: Celia's in the wrong this time and the comic makes that clear). Haley and Belkar's hilarious lines in the same panel more than made up for the minor annoyance I felt there, however. "Oooo! A candy bar!" Belkar and Elan have similar INT scores and are both Chaotic, y'know: they're simply total opposites in morals, but in many personality traits they are in nigh-perfect alignment. Also, praying to Roy actually makes perfect sense, given that he more or less managed to keep craziness like this under control, and never strangled any member of the party. And if she did pray to him, perhaps he would be able to contact her somehow because of it? Shot in the dark, but...

[Twisted Otaku]

I kinda hate to say it... but I'm exactly like Belkar (not in real life mind you). When I play games like ElderScrolls Oblivion or other games that just really let you choose whatever you want to do (Fallout 1 and 2) I do stuff like he does all the time. Kill the random npc counter, loot his body, sell for septums or bottlecaps or what have you.

[Sturmjaeger]

Ah, classic Belkar, and a poke at Fox News. Just what I needed for my weekend. Thank you. :)

[Remirach]

So what are the odds Mr. Lorkyurg will receive an all-expenses paid trip to Cliffport for a Raise Dead alongside Roy's Resurrect?

[Draz74]

Wow, this is the most evil we've seen Belkar be in a looooong time. Kind of puts a crack in my "slow, subtle redemption" theory. :smallfrown:

At least it was a gnome. :smallwink: Ah, gnomes, still fulfilling their classic "comic relief" role. Heh, "a candy bar!"

Poor Haley. I'm truly impressed that she's not trying to strangle the others.

So, aside from the interesting insights into the characters, what was the point of the gnome in the story? Any guesses? Is the amount of time until they hit the main road going to be important? Or the mountain pass? Or just the fact that a donkey can now pull their cart?

[Trem]

I think a lot of people are completely missing Celias point. Shes absolutely right, theres no difference in between killing that goblin and the gnome. The goblins had every right to hate the azurites and destroy their city, anyone who read SoD should know why. Redcloaks first words when launching the attack really says it all "this one is for you mom". Maybe Celia not being a pc race knows more about the plight of the goblins and other monster races better than Haley does and shes trying to get them to see the truth. Xykon is the one looking to rule the world, the goblins just want equal rights.

[Bitzeralisis]

Ha ha ha! Even Cekia is on Belkar's side! :smallbiggrin:

[Aerysil]

Funny and all, and I cracked up at the Fox News bit.

But when Belkar killed yet another NPC, I groaned a bit. It might have been a little too soon to pull that gag again.

So far, that's only two complaints I've had since I started following the comics (since before #100). I think.

[bibliophile]

Some in above posts have suggested the potential for punishment of belkar, and frankly I don't see that happening. It's a remote possiblity, but I don't think it will come to be. Eugene was an a-hole to his wife and son, the same son who was doing the duty that should be his (the blood oath), and Eugene is still getting into paradise. Belkar has recived no punishment or had any significant repurcusions from his violent actions, and I see no reason why he will in the future.
The stick figure nature of this comic makes gore and violence funny. When belkar stabs someone, it's funny. This is, rare exception aside, a humourous webcomic, and it would be unusually serious for this comic to have the belkster punished.

[FujinAkari]

I think a lot of people are completely missing Celias point. Shes absolutely right, theres no difference in between killing that goblin and the gnome.

Yes there was. One is an enemy soldier, one isn't.


The goblins had every right to hate the azurites and destroy their city, anyone who read SoD should know why.

Regardless of motivation, people have the right to defend themselves from an attacking army. Two wrongs do not make a right. Thousands of innocents were not obligated to die just because some Sapphire Guard decided that the world being destroyed might be a bad thing.


Xykon is the one looking to rule the world, the goblins just want equal rights.

No they don't. The Goblins just want to oppress other races the same as PC races currently do. They have no intention of 'correcting' the problem, they just want their cut.

[Charles Phipps]

I think a lot of people are completely missing Celias point. Shes absolutely right, theres no difference in between killing that goblin and the gnome. The goblins had every right to hate the azurites and destroy their city, anyone who read SoD should know why. Redcloaks first words when launching the attack really says it all "this one is for you mom". Maybe Celia not being a pc race knows more about the plight of the goblins and other monster races better than Haley does and shes trying to get them to see the truth. Xykon is the one looking to rule the world, the goblins just want equal rights.

How isn't there a difference?

1. The goblins had every right to hate the azurites and destroy their city, anyone who read SoD should know why.

I don't see any remote justification. The actions of a few evil Paladins don't justify the horrid atrocities of the Waffen-Hobgoblins.

2. Redcloaks first words when launching the attack really says it all "this one is for you mom".

The Redcloak who murdered his brother in cold blood for an undead horror that wants to destroy the world?

3. Xykon is the one looking to rule the world, the goblins just want equal rights.

They enslaved the Azurites.

[Llelldorin]

I'm somewhat disappointed. I don't remember Belkar doing something this evil "on-screen" so to speak, and it looked as though he had been starting to change for the better, only to snap back to square one.

Consult #261 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0261.html) and #265 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html). Unless that was somehow a really eeeeeevil nice-seeming guard who Belkar both killed and used as a palette, I'd say Belkar has been plenty evil before, even on-screen.

[FujinAkari]

The Redcloak who murdered his brother in cold blood for an undead horror that wants to destroy the world?

Spoiler that please.

[Charles Phipps]

Spoiler that please.

And that's all you have to say?

[FujinAkari]

And that's all you have to say?

You weren't responding to me... what else should I say?

"I agree with you Charles!"

There, happy? :P

[Charles Phipps]

You weren't responding to me... what else should I say?

"I agree with you Charles!"

There, happy? :P

It's just, you know. Some more comments would be appreciated than "No spoil that!"

Overall, I do agree with this though.


Regardless of motivation, people have the right to defend themselves from an attacking army. Two wrongs do not make a right. Thousands of innocents were not obligated to die just because some Sapphire Guard decided that the world being destroyed might be a bad thing.

It's a very strong and important point. Crushing people down in the name of some ethical point is evil unless the point is to prevent FAR GREATER evil, and maybe not even then.

[Quorothorn]

I think a lot of people are completely missing Celias point. Shes absolutely right, theres no difference in between killing that goblin and the gnome. The goblins had every right to hate the azurites and destroy their city, anyone who read SoD should know why. Redcloaks first words when launching the attack really says it all "this one is for you mom". Maybe Celia not being a pc race knows more about the plight of the goblins and other monster races better than Haley does and shes trying to get them to see the truth. Xykon is the one looking to rule the world, the goblins just want equal rights.

Um, no, she's very clearly wrong. See Charles Phipps and FujinAkari's posts for my reasons, as I'm too tired to put the argument in my own words right now. >_> Suffice to say, the gnome was a trader, the hobgoblin was an enemy soldier. And this is coming from the guy who thought this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) was one of the most touching moments in the entire history of the strip, JFTR.

[Shadowcaller]

To everyone thinking Belkar has crossed the line: WAKE UP! He was there right from the start. What do you think CE means?

It was only Roy that kept him from wanton slaughter. He's an evil, bloodthirsty bastard. He's no different from Xykon (both of whom are great BTW).

The REAL potential problem is NOT Belkar inflicting harm upon innocent bystanders. It's Belkar inflicting harm upon Haley and Celia. He's a psycho they can't control who might turn on them any moment. Haley is no match for him in battle (at most she can escape alive), and Celia is fodder. Kill'em both, bury Roy in some pit and terrorize the nearby countryside... That'd be a marked impovement for Belkster.

Belkar is in fact technically the weakest of the PC characters in the order.
I mean he is a ranger that dont have enought wisdom to cast spells.
Sure he have killed a lot of npcs but I dont think he would stand a chance against a another PC or a monster with class levels.
Belkar a very unfocused character and I dont think he would win against an atleast normaly focused PC or some better-then-average monster unless he gor help from the plot.

[The Hop Goblin]

Anyone shocked or feels Belkar has "crossed the line" has obviously not read "On the Origin of PCs".

Was it funny? Absolutely in its unexpectedness. Did it make sense? Yes, the satire about "that guy" in a D&D Game is true. Does it invoke some sort of soul-disturbing outcry against all the cruelties of life/humanity/halfling-ity? I guess I have more of a serious life full of serious goings on than to take something like this as a slap to my face in an "omigosh" aspect. Killing non-biased gnomes isn't that far off from murdering something with green or orange skin that happens to have a different (and opposing) idealogy and culture than you (with the simple justification that they are 'monsters' is right up there with 'their just NPCs).

Regardless - I feel that its a plot mechanic detailing the consequences of not having Roy around all the more.

Just the same, why hasn't anyone given him a belt of Owl's Wisdom? It seems that resolved his issue before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html).

[FujinAkari]

Just the same, why hasn't anyone given him a belt of Owl's Wisdom? It seems that resolved his issue before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html).

Roy doesn't ACTUALLY have levels in "Future Psychic," and so no one is aware of what Belkar was thinking.

[Charles Phipps]

Regardless - I feel that its a plot mechanic detailing the consequences of not having Roy around all the more.

Ummm, am I again the guy who assumes lasting change will result from this?

I.e. Belkar being kicked from the party?

[Quorothorn]

Belkar is in fact technically the weakest of the PC characters in the order.
I mean he is a ranger that dont have enought wisdom to cast spells.
Sure he have killed a lot of npcs but I dont think he would stand a chance against a another PC or a monster with class levels.
Belkar a very unfocused character and I dont think he would win against an atleast normaly focused PC or some better-then-average monster unless he gor help from the plot.

I should point out that Haley had about as much trouble with 22 hobgoblins as Belkar did with probably around a hundred. And Belkar also casually one-shot a monster with class levels before, actually. Also, does an Eye of Fear and Flame count as a monster with class levels (not familiar with it)? If so, that's another one he's effortlessly defeated (and bent to his will to boot). Finally, don't bring out that "help from the plot" argument, please. Belkar's only weak point is his Will save.

[Arcane_Secrets]

To everyone thinking Belkar has crossed the line: WAKE UP! He was there right from the start. What do you think CE means?

It was only Roy that kept him from wanton slaughter. He's an evil, bloodthirsty bastard. He's no different from Xykon (both of whom are great BTW).

The REAL potential problem is NOT Belkar inflicting harm upon innocent bystanders. It's Belkar inflicting harm upon Haley and Celia. He's a psycho they can't control who might turn on them any moment. Haley is no match for him in battle (at most she can escape alive), and Celia is fodder. Kill'em both, bury Roy in some pit and terrorize the nearby countryside... That'd be a marked impovement for Belkster.

I think that Celia's odds are a little better than that. We've already seen her lightning bolt once when she zapped Nale and Thog. She's also flight-capable, and can probably get out of range of Belkar even with his ring of jumping fairly quickly.

I'm not disagreeing that without Roy around, he's slipping into 'totally out of control'.

[skywalker]

I said this in a different thread, wanted to say it again, 539 made me sick. I'm sitting here with my stomach turning right now. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, actually, kudos Giant, cuz a webcomic has never done this to me before.

[The Hop Goblin]

Ummm, am I again the guy who assumes lasting change will result from this?

I.e. Belkar being kicked from the party?

Nowhere in my post did I say it wasn't going to be a lasting change. Its a mechanic to underline the consequences of Roy's extended absense.

Em-pha-sis.

However, I don't think this is the "Straw that broke the camel's back". I think we're just catching the first dip in the roller-coaster ride.

[silvadel]

What is it with Belkar and hats? Part of me wonders if he really killed that gnome to wear his red hat.

[Yendor]

I think Haley should take the hat and make herself an idol of Banjo, and pray to him to lay a divine smackdown on Belkar.

It's worth a shot.

[Halvormerlinaky]

I didn't read every reply, so sorry if this is a repeat, but does anyone else think the Gnome was killed as a commentary on 4th Edition?

[Kranach]

Great comic! (and very good strip). Candy bar at the end intrigues me much. This is surely the reference but I wonder if it is about ADOM or rather Everquest

[Halvormerlinaky]

Hey, the forum's working again.

Now that I've read a bit more of the thread, but not all thanks to some dodgy problems (why does the main website work when the forum doesn't?), I'm really perplexed by all the people who are upset by Belkar's actions.

I'm reminded of the Futurama episode with the "evil" Bender, Flexo, when Fry says, "I'm shocked! Well, not that shocked" when it was revealed that Bender was the bad guy all along.

I just can't understand how people are surprised that Belkar is EVIL. He practically wears it on his forehead. Should he have a CE tagged to it a la Rimmer?

"Oh, no! Belkar killed an innocent!" All I can say is, "And your point?"

But I really like where this is going with Haley and her desire/want/need to fill in for Roy. It should lead to some interesting, and humorous, developments.

And to the person who asked if Roy would be a good deity, or something to that extent, I'd say, "Hells, yeah." I'd badger any DM into allowing my character to follow his ideals. A God of Sarcasm would totally kick ass.

[B9anders]

Great strip. Really exposes some of the naive assumptions of RPGing, that evil and good characters can get along fine in a party without moral consequences and for that matter, what a twisted version of good exists in fantasy, where it is apparently entirely ok to just kill whatever is in your way, as long as it is 'evil'.

Belkar is really just taking Haley's idea of 'good' to its natural conclusion, because he doesn't distinguish between 'good' and 'evil' creatures as somehow making a difference to whether it's alright to kill. Neither does Celia.

It's gonna go downhill for Belkar from here though, I think. Don't see how the group can survive that kind of evil. Bound to happen though and about time Belkar showed his true colors.

[Halvormerlinaky]

Great strip. Really exposes some of the naive assumptions of RPGing, that evil and good characters can get along fine in a party without moral consequences and for that matter, what a twisted version of good exists in fantasy, where it is apparently entirely ok to just kill whatever is in your way, as long as it is 'evil'.

Belkar is really just taking Haley's idea of 'good' to its natural conclusion, because he doesn't distinguish between 'good' and 'evil' creatures as somehow making a difference to whether it's alright to kill. Neither does Celia.

It's gonna go downhill for Belkar from here though, I think. Don't see how the group can survive that kind of evil. Bound to happen though and about time Belkar showed his true colors.

I don't really know about that. Taking D&D at it's most abstract interpretation, Good players can only kill Evil NPCs, but Evil characters can kill Good or Evil ones. So, really, Belkar fits in without any hitches. That's part of the comic-derived morality of D&D - Good is restrained, but Evil can do whatever it wants.

[The Old Hack]

As far as I can see, Belkar is acting mostly as he always has with no Roy around to keep him in check. It's harsh and a little shocking, but then I was certainly shocked when Belkar first killed that guard during his prison escape. I suppose I shouldn't have been given that he killed those three barbarians during his acceptance trial into the barbarian class, but they seemed a bit like they were just made to die -- luring me into accepting their deaths with greater ease than I should have had, maybe.

As far as praying to Roy goes, I still have an amusing mental image in mind of Banjo trying to recruit him for his pantheon... :smallamused:

[Diabo]

Evil Belkar rules!! :D :D :D

[El_Jefe]

I am going to be laughing about "Fox News" for days....

Genius!!!

[snoopy13a]

I think that Haley and Celia have to either kill or capture Belkar. Belkar killing an innocent gnome fits in with his character. However, Haley and Celia aren't the types to tolerate such an action. After all, pretty much all of Belkar's previous murders in the comic were unknown to the rest of the order.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Great strip Giant, like the Fox bit, also interesting seeing the challanges Haley faces as leader. I'm sure she appreciates Roy all the more as a leader now.

And praying to Roy... maybe he and Banjo can join up:smalltongue:

And am I the only one who has a vision of the strip fast forwarding to their arravial in Cliffport only now the cart is full of poor slain NPCs that have to raise because of Belkar?:smalleek: (not that it would happen, Haley will put a stop to it I am sure.)


Originally Posted by Trem
I think a lot of people are completely missing Celias point. Shes absolutely right, theres no difference in between killing that goblin and the gnome. The goblins had every right to hate the azurites and destroy their city, anyone who read SoD should know why. Redcloaks first words when launching the attack really says it all "this one is for you mom". Maybe Celia not being a pc race knows more about the plight of the goblins and other monster races better than Haley does and shes trying to get them to see the truth. Xykon is the one looking to rule the world, the goblins just want equal rights.

I don't think Celia is saying that - she is of course a law (wo)man - she certainly differentiates a bit between reasons for killing. The Hob. was an enemy, occupying soldier who would have tried to kill them if the chance arose. The gnome was an innocent trader (unless it was an Aboleth servant or something in disguise). I think she merely is saying that if killing can be avoided, even if it is a Hobgoblin, then that isn't a bad thing.

Whether the goblonoids have a legitimate claim to their actions could be debated, but to our knowledge the Hobgoblins have no special gripe with the Azurites like Redcloak does. Aren't they more just, you know, in it it for the war and spoils? And even if they do have a reason they aren't exactly claiming the high ground since two "We kill you all!" wrongs don't make a right.

[PresidentEnder]

While I don't think Belkar's murder of the helpless gnome was particularly funny, it does have the potential to become funny- say, if the gnome was a forward scout for some sort of evil which Belkar has now unwittingly incapacitated.

[recluso]

First, As far as I read nobody talked about the "didn't even have a name"/"He TOLD us his name" lines. Attempt do another variant of the "Having a name makes you important joke"? Since its similar to oots#21 (TriGak died while Named) and I trust Rich not to do things identical twice, I still expect this to get some twist.

I also wonder why the aftermath of the Azure City match took 3 month. I mean none of the stories really needed that much time..
Only Roy's body might have needed that much time to become light enough for Belkar to carry alone?

Obviously I am not a DND player but isn't "It's war so killing is ok" a lawful way of thinking, and consequent objection to killing more neutral good?

[Kish]

Ummm, am I again the guy who assumes lasting change will result from this?

I.e. Belkar being kicked from the party?
Yes, you are.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

I have to say, i just got caught up with the comic and was begining to wonder where my second fav charctor(belkar) was. He wasnt evil anymore. But that just restored my hope. FOX NEWS! Frikken genius

[Hidalgo]

Good old Belkar, he always makes me laugh.

[Arutema]

Ummm, am I again the guy who assumes lasting change will result from this?

I.e. Belkar being kicked from the party?

I don't think it will stop at that.

The Oracle hinted at Belkar's death. I think the OOTS will be forced to kill Belkar.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Ummm, am I again the guy who assumes lasting change will result from this?

I.e. Belkar being kicked from the party?


No, he is the comic releif of the series right now, and hes done this before. I mean, he threw his dagger at roy, and though dully noted, is worse than killing a Gnome. And besides, i was suspicious of the gnome anyway. i mean, the biggest town in the oots world (so far) and he had a cart. He wasnt even riding the horse. That means he lives near there. HOW WOULDNT HE KNOW??? If in new jersey the nazis attacked new york city, everyone would know, and there would be retaliation. Belkar has done this FOREVER why has noone ever cared???????:smallannoyed:

[the_tick_rules]

oh belkar my sweet belkar. I wonder how long Celia can stand him?

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I don't think it will stop at that.

The Oracle hinted at Belkar's death. I think the OOTS will be forced to kill Belkar.

I remember a scene in a vampire movie called Frostbitten where a character ends up impaled on a garden gnome... maybe it won't be the party that does it, but a meek gnome some way down the road - "Mt name Silt Lorkyurg. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

[The Hop Goblin]

I remember a scene in a vampire movie called Frostbitten where a character ends up impaled on a garden gnome... maybe it won't be the party that does it, but a meek gnome some way down the road - "Mt name Silt Lorkyurg. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

Eh, they already did that joke (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html).

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Eh, they already did that joke (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html).

I know, that's what I was refering to. How karma might get Belkar for his gnome cruelty through the medium of another gnome (though of course not the same as the Yokyok scenario, because that would be a overused.)

[Shadowcaller]

I should point out that Haley had about as much trouble with 22 hobgoblins as Belkar did with probably around a hundred. And Belkar also casually one-shot a monster with class levels before, actually. Also, does an Eye of Fear and Flame count as a monster with class levels (not familiar with it)? If so, that's another one he's effortlessly defeated (and bent to his will to boot). Finally, don't bring out that "help from the plot" argument, please. Belkar's only weak point is his Will save.

Wait Belkar is better then Haley in a fight besides the point that they are the same level and that Belar is a multiclass ranger-barbarian with not enough wisdom to cast spells? (he dont even have a animal companion).
Im no expert, but I dont think a character like that would work well in a DnD game.

[factotum]

He wouldn't, but the comparison Quorothorn made was to actual events in the strip, where Belkar quite easily slaughtered his way through dozens of hobgoblins (the "sexy shoeless god of war" moment) while Haley struggled with less than 20 while they were getting out of Azure City to retrieve Roy's body. Despite the fact Belkar is about as badly-optimised as a D&D character can get, events in the strip itself prove he's probably the best melee fighter in the party (even including Roy).

[Quorothorn]

He wouldn't, but the comparison Quorothorn made was to actual events in the strip, where Belkar quite easily slaughtered his way through dozens of hobgoblins (the "sexy shoeless god of war" moment) while Haley struggled with less than 20 while they were getting out of Azure City to retrieve Roy's body. Despite the fact Belkar is about as badly-optimised as a D&D character can get, events in the strip itself prove he's probably the best melee fighter in the party (even including Roy).

Thanks for making my point for me, Factotum. My post-midterms Fatigued (or maybe Exhausted) mind greatly appreciates you.

[Saint Nil]

The Fox news joke was hilarious. Personaly, I hope it becomes a running gag, like " Roy has boobies".
Also, I wonder if Haley will feel so guilty about the gnome that she throws him into the cart? Be funny if he turns into an important NPC.

[Syraider]

this is cool xD

[Avilan the Grey]

Belkar is in fact technically the weakest of the PC characters in the order.
I mean he is a ranger that dont have enought wisdom to cast spells.
Sure he have killed a lot of npcs but I dont think he would stand a chance against a another PC or a monster with class levels.
Belkar a very unfocused character and I dont think he would win against an atleast normaly focused PC or some better-then-average monster unless he gor help from the plot.


Wait Belkar is better then Haley in a fight besides the point that they are the same level and that Belar is a multiclass ranger-barbarian with not enough wisdom to cast spells? (he dont even have a animal companion).
Im no expert, but I dont think a character like that would work well in a DnD game.

...Don't know if I agree with this. I have always found the spells for Rangers something I have almost never used. The 3.5 Ed Ranger is quite competent as a fighter, even as a hafling, with daggers, and I don't see him having any problems with an equal level rogue, and a fairy too much trust in people not to be stunned by shock for a round or so while Belkar guts her.

He has probably a very high dex even for a hafling ranger, and is quite probably min-maxed that way (wis is is dump stat, as we know).
He probably has a dex at least 2 points higher than Haley, and add to that the bonuses he gets (or rather the penalties his enemies get) for being Small.

(Btw, if I was Belkar, I would have multiclassed to Invisible Blade, if that PrC is available, and not Barbarian, to optimize the use of the daggers...)

Basically, Belkar is probably the *most* focused PC in the group, with the possible exception of Roy.
The thing though, is that he might be more optimized for *CRPG* D&D3.5, not PnP... He is "built" to survive battles, with no skill points for Spot, Listen, or any other skills that does not directly translate into "Stabbity Death".