Belkar is True Neutral!

[Rad]

Just kidding... maybe it was just functional to today's joke, but I don't remember him doing anything so blatantly CE since the beginning of the comic... are we sure we want him to get his MoJ removed? What about placing another one to cover out-of-city kills?

[Tengu]

This new comic has perfect examples of both Stupid Good and Stupid Evil alignments. As well as lampshade hanging on the "PC>NPC" part of most games.

And Belkar might just hate gnomes or people give his intelligence too much credit.

[Tempest Fennac]

I would have thought that his tendancy to want to kill things for fun would class as CE (admittedly, there is 1 CN diety who is in favour of total war due to the slaughter that it causes. I'll try and find his name, but I know he lives in Limbo).

[Moechi_Vill]

Belkar is a nice psycopath.

[The Vanishing Hitchhiker]

I would have thought that his tendancy to want to kill things for fun would class as CE (admittedly, there is 1 CN diety who is in favour of total war due to the slaughter that it causes. I'll try and find his name, but I know he lives in Limbo).

Well, this was a topic of some facetiousness, but oh well. :smallbiggrin:

If anything, he's at least Chaotic Neutral.

:elan: I'm participating!

[Tempest Fennac]

I found the name of the god I mentioned earlier (it's Garagos): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garagos . Don't ask me how this guy is only CN.

[cheesecake]

I love Belkar and his mindless killing! I honestly admit reading the panel I couldn't believe he killed the gnome! I try to size my browser so I only can read one line of panels at a time and when I looked I was like holy cow! He killed the gnome.

No one can control him now. He is going to go on a rampage killing every worthless NPC in sight

[Balathustrius]

Belkar is a little scary.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Just kidding... maybe it was just functional to today's joke, but I don't remember him doing anything so blatantly CE since the beginning of the comic...
Hmm... Blatant? Insofar as his Evil is directed at a truly innocent non-evil PC? I suppose you have a point. But...

On the Origin of PCs
Belkar starts out in this book jailed slaughtering most of the patrons and staff of a tavern during a "friendly" barroom brawl. Granted, this happens off-panel, but I think it establishes the tenor of the character.

I gotta agree with Tengu. Belkar's not just Chaotic Evil, but Stupid Evil as well. And if Celia and Haley are gonna turn a blind eye to that sort of behavior, that's gonna call into question their Good alignments, too.

[Ikialev]

I found the name of the god I mentioned earlier (it's Garagos): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garagos . Don't ask me how this guy is only CN.

What about Tempus, isn't he CN?

[Tengu]

And if Celia and Haley are gonna turn a blind eye to that sort of behavior, that's gonna call into question their Good alignments, too.

It's a case of PC-NPC double standards.

[Querzis]

What about Tempus, isn't he CN?

Yes hes also CN. But his alignement actually make sense, I totally agree that Garagos should be Chaotic Evil. Tempus like honorable combat and teach to his follower to not attack defenseless people and to fight honorably while Garagos is the god of mindless slaughter. How come the god of mindless slaughter and destruction is just CN?

[Oxymoron]

AAAAW :smallfrown: You were only joking. And I was gonna call you TRUE STUPID.

[gm_rand]

Any one happen to remember the lengths a certain Halfling ranger went to in order to keep a paladin to keep from detecting evil on him? Not sure he’d bother to go through all that effort if he wasn't trying to keep her from telling he's evil. I can see him doing it just to piss her off but his drive to piss her off would have to override the fact that he wouldn’t really give a damn if she knew he was Neutral. So that's a tough call.

I see him more as Neutral Evil. Kills what ever he feels like for what ever reason he can rationalize to himself.

Must say though when he killed that gnome it reminded me why his character has a special place in my heart. Too bad it couldn’t have been an elf though. Oh well you can’t have it all.

[Deathwisher]

I gotta agree with Tengu. Belkar's not just Chaotic Evil, but Stupid Evil as well. And if Celia and Haley are gonna turn a blind eye to that sort of behavior, that's gonna call into question their Good alignments, too.

While it is definetly evil, in itself this is not a stupid act. Under the circumstances, having a donkey to pull the cart will be quite usefull. :smallbiggrin: and the guy he just killed is unlikely to have powerful friends or family.

[Felixaar]

I was fairly sure Belkar was Chaotic Neutral until the Deva said otherwise.

Techincally, someone who delights in slaughter could be called Neutral rather than evil, because they're just slaughtering people to further their own means (i.e. fun with killing). They probably kill good and evil alike.

[LtNOWIS]

I would have thought that his tendancy to want to kill things for fun would class as CE
Well, by that logic, hunters are evil. Or people who take joy in, say, killing evil marauding goblins in a lawful manner. But killing people at random for no reason is pretty close to the definition of evil.


While it is definetly evil, in itself this is not a stupid act. Under the circumstances, having a donkey to pull the cart will be quite usefull. :smallbiggrin: and the guy he just killed is unlikely to have powerful friends or family.

Not really... the smart thing would be to wait to find out his attentions, find out what else he knows, find out if he's willing to help out, etc. Killing him could've waited for later.

[osyluth]

According to the Order of the Stick Adventure Game, Belkar is Selfish Evil.

[Zafuel]

Zafuel's First Law: As the evidence for someone's alignment (MitD, Miko, Belkar...) increases, the amount of people insisting the contrary increases exponentially.

[Deathwisher]

Not really... the smart thing would be to wait to find out his attentions, find out what else he knows, find out if he's willing to help out, etc. Killing him could've waited for later.

Someone who gets his news from Fox isn't going to be much use :smalltongue: Still, killing the gnome is probably not the smartest thing to do, but it is not necessarily stupd either. Just callous.

[Theodoriph]

Garagos should be N. He is a god of war and in fantasy settings, wars are traditionally and stereotypically fought between a "good" side and an "evil" side. Being a god of war means that he shouldn't show favouritism toward any particular alignment (though he may honour those who honour him). Thus Garagos should be neutral.

You should also keep in mind that although Wiki says Garagos revels in destruction and slaughter, he does so within certain bounds. He doesn't go about randomly engaging in slaughter.

[Nevar K'calb]

I don't know, I think this brings back to light what the Bureaucratic Deva said to Roy in Comic 490, Alignment isn't what you are, it's an ideal to which you work toward. Even if that ideal... is to kill a lot people, and wear severed kobold heads as fashionably new hats.

[Theodoriph]

He's trying to do his job :P

Anyhoo, if it's an ideal to which he works for...he's definitely not CE.

[Querzis]

Garagos should be N. He is a god of war and in fantasy settings, wars are traditionally and stereotypically fought between a "good" side and an "evil" side.

Billions of humans conflict disagree with you there. Though if we are talking about D&D yeah most of the time. But whats important is how you do a war, not just being warlike. Sorry but yeah Garagos really want is follower to engage in mindless slaughter and destruction. So in any war, the side with Garagos followers is going to be the evil side. You cant call yourself good or even neutral if you follow Garagos teachings. Hell, mindless slaughter and destruction as almost always been associated with CE.

[Svethnika]

Okay, this puts to rest any theories of him not being chaotic evil right? Finally? Maybe?

[The Extinguisher]

Belkar has been obviously evil since day 1.

Personally, I'm just glad he's no longer in leather pants.

[Svethnika]

I think so too but I'm hoping this shuts down any discussion whether or not he's evil.

[quiet1mi]

any who don't know why people are hating on Belkar now. he is a level 12-14 character going to revive a lvl 12-14 fighter... he decided, rather than spend time through conversation he would just take the darn donkey to speed up the travels because a halfling can pull a cart with a dead body in it only so fast

i would have done the same thing as Belkar...(i am also true neutral).

on one hand it is a level 13ish fighter to fight the forces of evil on the other hand it is a gnome, traveling to a place that is destroyed and over run with hobgoblins,with the thing you need to speed up your goal and is probably (he died in one attack) not even past level 5

if anything the gnome was spared torture from the hobgoblins and given a quick death...

[Theodoriph]

Billions of humans conflict disagree with you there. Though if we are talking about D&D yeah most of the time. But whats important is how you do a war, not just being warlike. Sorry but yeah Garagos really want is follower to engage in mindless slaughter and destruction. So in any war, the side with Garagos followers is going to be the evil side. You cant call yourself good or even neutral if you follow Garagos teachings. Hell, mindless slaughter and destruction as almost always been associated with CE.


Gargagos doesn't engage in mindless slaughter and destruction. If he did, he would be CE. But he doesn't. He's a God of War. His portfolio is slaughter and destruction in the realm of War.

In short, Garagos had certain emotional needs he needed fulfilled. But instead of simply lashing out to meet his needs, he searched for and found a job that let him legally fulfill them while servicing humanity (because after all...someone needs to do the job). This job likely certain restrictions on what he can and can't do. In short, he restrains himself. He doesn't go around randomly slaughtering and destroying. It's controlled and it's all focused within the legal activity known as war.

For example, if two people got together, formed a band of outlaws, and went around robbing people, slaughtering them and burning down their barn...Garagos wouldn't care about it because his only concern is war. Erythnul however would because Erythnul delights in panic and slaughter, all panic and slaughter. That's why Erythnul is CE and Garagos is not.

Garagos defies what a CE player should be.

To illustrate the difference:

Let's say someone went around whipping people whenever they felt the inkling to because they enjoyed causing pain. That person would be CE. Let's call this person Erythnul.

Let's say a professional dominator whipped (and enjoyed whipping) certain kinds of people (presumably he was hired to do so). That would not be CE. We'll call this person Garagos.



As for the distinction between good and evil, it is my opinion that Garagos is Neutral. He doesn't distinguish good people or bad people, good motives or bad ones. All are equal, balanced, to him. Logically, though it's not explicity stated, balance should be important to him as having both good/evil and law/chaos in a near balance (with one side having a small advantage over the other...which one that is can vary over time) creates the most conflict which would allow him more fieldwork.

I've actually wondered why Tempus is not LN and why Garagos isn't NN but I guess other aspects of their personalities turn them to CN.


And besides that, out of CE, LE, NE and CN...the CN description just fits him best.

CN:

A chaotic neutral character follows his whims [slaughter and destruction ftw!]. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but does not strive to protect the freedom of others. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions [the 1 god per portfolio]. A chaotic neutral character doesn't intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or by evil (and a desire to make others suffer), or be lawful neutral. A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.


I'd say that sums Garagos up quite well.

I will admit though, even in my view, he is quite close to being evil. It wouldn't take too much of a change in his behavior to push him over the line :smallyuk:

[Demented]

Pfh. You are NOT true neutral.

Neutral would've just stolen his donkey. Chaotic would take it without asking, Lawful would commandeer, True Neutral would just ask nicely with a dagger to his neck.

So long as you leave him alive, healthy and free, you're not evil.

But, as I always say, what's the fun in that? :smallbiggrin: