You are Haley in #539.

[pendell]

Imagine you are Haley. You have just seen the events of 539. You've got Celia harping at you for killing a hobgoblin. You've just seen Belkar murder an unarmed gnome.

What do you do?

My thought is to yell at the sky:

"Roy? Are you listening? Could you fire off Belkar's MOJ?"
Hope Roy is listening, and if it works, let Belkar suffer for a bit, then say "Thanks, Roy. Please turn it off now. "

After Belkar gets back up, say "No more murders of random NPCS or you get more of the same. And now we know Roy is watching us. So if you kill me, Roy will still thwap you."

If Roy doesn't or can't respond, attempt to kill Belkar.

Are there other options?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

Wait until Belkar's inside a city again, and kill him?

(I think it would be an extremely bad idea for Haley to try to take on Belkar outside a city. Roy could have taken Belkar in a fair fight--not Haley.)

[Shalewind]

No, her options are quite limited. If Belkar gets bad enough that she no longer wishes to associate with him (and that may be soon) then it’s a tough situation.

She can’t just tell him to leave (cause of Roy’s body).

She can’t take him in combat (even with Celia’s help I’d imagine).

More of a problem is if Belkar turns on her.

I think Haley could justify killing Belkar while we was unaware and still be within her “Good” alignment, despite what the celestial’s said about slitting throats while sleeping (that applied to Roy, Roy had a much different skill set than Haley).

Then again, maybe she couldn’t bring herself to do that. I bet the two girls could think up something together.

[Craig1f]

I attacked a fellow PC for less 2 weeks ago.

We had an unconscious prisoner on a ship we'd just boarded. We noticed an active divination spell on him. We agreed we'd keep him alive, stick him in a cart that had magical protection against divination, and in the morning, attempt to dispel the spell. And to not wake him.

The one guy in the group that thought his opinion was more important than everyone else's waits for us to walk away, and proceeds to wake the guy up, who immediately starts mumbling to himself (some kinda ability like message). When he sees it, he goes to throw the guy overboard, who was charmed and believed that our enemy was a good guy.

So I charged him (the PC) with a level 4 power attack.

Haley should subdue Belkar right now if she believes she can win.

[Craig1f]

I attacked a fellow PC for less 2 weeks ago.

We had an unconscious prisoner on a ship we'd just boarded. We noticed an active divination spell on him. We agreed we'd keep him alive, stick him in a cart that had magical protection against divination, and in the morning, attempt to dispel the spell. And to not wake him.

The one guy in the group that thought his opinion was more important than everyone else's waits for us to walk away, and proceeds to wake the guy up, who immediately starts mumbling to himself (some kinda ability like message). When he sees it, he goes to throw the guy overboard, who was charmed and believed that our enemy was a good guy.

So I charged him (the PC) with a level 4 power attack.

Haley should subdue Belkar right now if she believes she can win.

[Alex Warlorn]

I'd say the Belkar just outlived his usefulness.

If they can't trust him NOT to kill non-hostile NPCs they meet along the way, the time have come to eliminate him.

[ChaoticEvilGuy]

a knife in each of them.

[mikeejimbo]

Well in Belkar's defense, they now have a donkey and some spices, and probably some money. I'd say it was a good plan.

Oh wait, Haley isn't evil. What would a good person do in this situation? I lack experience on the matter.

[Weiser_Cain]

*Sneak Attack*
Throw his body in the cart
speak with dead scroll
see if he likes his afterlife

[Morgan Wick]

Hope Roy is listening, and if it works, let Belkar suffer for a bit, then say "Thanks, Roy. Please turn it off now. "

After Belkar gets back up, say "No more murders of random NPCS or you get more of the same. And now we know Roy is watching us. So if you kill me, Roy will still thwap you."

Can Roy, or anyone, turn it off? I was under the impression that once the Mark is activated, it's game over.

And if Haley really wanted to deal with Belkar, she'd leave him by the side of the road and run off with Roy's body.

The question isn't what a good person would do. It's what a Lawful Good person, especially a pacifist like Celia, would do.

[Querzis]

If Roy is watching this and can somehow activate the MoJ then all is well. Belkar wont try to do anything else since he know Roy will activate the MoJ everytime he do something evil.

If not, well, you are all underestimating Haley and Celia. Sure in a straigth fight between Haley and Belkar I would vote for Belkar...but Haley is a rogue, rogue are supposed to play dirty. Surprise round: sneak attack, Haley probably win initiative: sneak attack. Even for Belkar, two sneak attack hurt as hell. And even though Celia is obviously not an adventurer, she still got sorcerer levels and Belkar is Belkar. A simple Charm spell would be more then enough.

[Green Bean]

I suppose I'd just threaten to stick Roy's body in a Bag of Holding. Simple, effective, and doesn't involve the fragile ranged specialist attacking the powerful melee guy from 30 ft away.

[VaeVictis]

Erm, Wasn't the MOJ only active inside the city?

[SPoD]

It doesn't matter what you would do. It matters what Haley would do, and she's "Chaotic Good...ish."

[NerfTW]

Erm, Wasn't the MOJ only active inside the city?

No, it's that he can't deal lethal damage within the bounds of any city, village, or town, he can't ever be more than one mile from Roy's position, and Roy has a command word that can activate the mark. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)

It's active, just in the sense that he needs to stay near the body. That was so he wouldn't just run off into the wilderness the first chance he got.

[nybbler]

She can’t take him in combat (even with Celia’s help I’d imagine).


If she finds she must kill him, she could decoy him away and shoot him in the back.

[gm_rand]

Haley should subdue Belkar right now if she believes she can win.


I have a feeling that Haley being a bow rogue and Belkar being a melee ranger/barbarian that our little Halfling friend would have a nice Haley hat. She’s pretty resourceful and I’m sure will find less violently direct means of dealing with Belkar.

Plus if she was to attack him on in some way subdue him she’d be pretty screwed. No way he'd help her after that.

[Alex Warlorn]

I have a feeling that Haley being a bow rogue and Belkar being a melee ranger/barbarian that our little Halfling friend would have a nice Haley hat. She’s pretty resourceful and I’m sure will find less violently direct means of dealing with Belkar.

Plus if she was to attack him on in some way subdue him she’d be pretty screwed. No way he'd help her after that.

Who needs his help? What's the point of an attack dog if you can't train it not to attack non-hostiles?

[Flickerdart]

First order of business: Hehe, boobies. Wheeee!
Second order of business: Loot the gnome. No sense in letting perfectly good equipment go to waste.
Third order of business: Confine Belkar to the cart by means of appealing to his laziness (what kind of a fool walks when there's a cart?) and keep going. Belkar is less likely to kill off NPCs if he has to get off his seat to do it.

[David Argall]

Imagine you are Haley. You have just seen the events of 539. You've got Celia harping at you for killing a hobgoblin. You've just seen Belkar murder an unarmed gnome.

What do you do?

My thought is to yell at the sky:

"Roy? Are you listening? Could you fire off Belkar's MOJ?"

As far as we know, this can't be done and we have no reason to think Haley thinks different.

But as others have noted, Haley has problems here. Her ability to take Belkar out is highly suspect and Belkar is not going to leave Roy. And Celia is also unlikely to leave Roy. Nor does Haley want to. Besides, she is in dangerous territory, and Belkar will be useful, she hopes.
So about her only choice is to stay with Belkar. That is going to have to require severe efforts to keep Belkar under control, which are unlikely to be successful.
and which under comic rules, are going to be worse than useless. She gets Belkar to promise not to kill until she says to, and then she gets gagged and unable to say so.

[Castamir]

Third order of business: Confine Belkar to the cart by means of appealing to his laziness (what kind of a fool walks when there's a cart?) and keep going. Belkar is less likely to kill off NPCs if he has to get off his seat to do it.
Daggers are throwing weapons...

[Deathwisher]

And if Haley really wanted to deal with Belkar, she'd leave him by the side of the road and run off with Roy's body.

How? It is not easy to run away while carrying a body, from someone who is unencumbered



The question isn't what a good person would do. It's what a Lawful Good person, especially a pacifist like Celia, would do.

Celia is a lawyer! She'll do whatever is either most profitable or most convenient :smallwink:

[gm_rand]

Who needs his help? What's the point of an attack dog if you can't train it not to attack non-hostiles?

Well when you need that attack dog to kill a few hundred hob-goblins he's still of great use even if it takes out one non-hostile. Lets face it Haley isn't really Ms. Combat Baddass 2008. She's more of your sneaky loot whoreing rogue...and we love her for it.

Who's to say that guy was non-hostile anyway? People who deal in spice can never be trusted, just ask any Atreides. :smallbiggrin:

[Ridureyu]

Kill Belkar.

Kill Haley for allowing Belkar to do that.

Desecrate Roy's corpse for not being alive.

Eat Mr. Scruffy.

Resurrect Miko, and then kill her again.

And finally, declare war on all gnomes.

[gm_rand]

But as others have noted, Haley has problems here. Her ability to take Belkar out is highly suspect and Belkar is not going to leave Roy. And Celia is also unlikely to leave Roy. Nor does Haley want to. Besides, she is in dangerous territory, and Belkar will be useful, she hopes.
So about her only choice is to stay with Belkar. That is going to have to require severe efforts to keep Belkar under control, which are unlikely to be successful.

I love how Rich keeps the party together with stuff like this. I just with some Players would do the same when they want to play a Good/evil mixed party.

[tbarrie]

The question isn't what a good person would do. It's what a Lawful Good person, especially a pacifist like Celia, would do.

I realize this is the sort of question that often starts really tedious arguments, but... has it been established that Celia is Lawful Good? I'd peg her as Neutral. She hasn't shown any real tendency to any of the alignment extremes.

[NikkTheTrick]

I'd kill Belkar at the first opportunity (I'd do that regardless of events in 539 though).

But for the time being, I'd turn to Celia.

I would start yelling to her that she is a spoiled pacifist brat who does not understand what is going on. I would explain to her what war means and the whole concept of war of atrittion. I would tell her every gory detail of how 10 000 Asurite soldiers were slain. How they begged for mercy. How they had families that are not going to see them again. I would tell her about what was done to slaves. And I would finish that with why mercy to the enemy is a mistake in war.

And that would not move Haley even a notch away from good given that Paladins get away with outright genocide of goblinkind.

[Alex Warlorn]

Well when you need that attack dog to kill a few hundred hob-goblins he's still of great use even if it takes out one non-hostile. Lets face it Haley isn't really Ms. Combat Baddass 2008. She's more of your sneaky loot whoreing rogue...and we love her for it.

Then wait until Belkar is sleeping and LOOT his weapons! He's not quite as dangerous without his toys. The point is what good is a weapon if you can't control what it takes out? Redcloak's reasons he keeps Xykon around are complex ones. Harley's reasons for keeping Belkar around is due to him being her only combat wild card around. If she found a less insane fighter along the road, she's knock out Belkar from behind before he could kill THAT guy, and ask the new guy to help save the world.





Who's to say that guy was non-hostile anyway? People who deal in spice can never be trusted, just ask any Atreides. :smallbiggrin:

That is just plain cheap and feels like a DM covering their rear.

[Alex Warlorn]

I would start yelling to her that she is a spoiled pacifist brat who does not understand what is going on. I would explain to her what war means and the whole concept of war of atrittion. I would tell her every gory detail of how 10 000 Asurite soldiers were slain. How they begged for mercy. How they had families that are not going to see them again. I would tell her about what was done to slaves. And I would finish that with why mercy to the enemy is a mistake in war.

I suppose Redcloak considers the same thing that happened to his family as justification for bringing the same evil upon the people of Azure City. Then again, overblown revenge is part of the Evil philophy.

At least Redcloak was wrong about one thing, the Shappire Guard isn't 'done' because even with only three members left, their ideals are still alive. Besides, that gate is gone, unless someone is able to rebuild it, so their official reason for existing is gone. Now they exist to protect their city and their people and nothing else.

I just think that Ceila might argue that the hobgoblins had families too.




And that would not move Haley even a notch away from good given that Paladins get away with outright genocide of goblinkind.

Maybe the Hobgoblins too decided that mercy in war was a mistake before they slaughtered the common foot soldiers who had likely never even seen a hobgoblin before that day.

And I have always felt that the Paladins killing non-combatant and underage goblins was totally out of whack! It felt like those scenes in RPGs where high priest turns out to be evil just BECAUSE he was the high priest!

[NikkTheTrick]

I suppose Redcloak considers the same thing that happened to his family as justification for bringing the same evil upon the people of Azure City. Then again, overblown revenge is part of the Evil philophy.

At least Redcloak was wrong about one thing, the Shappire Guard isn't 'done' because even with only three members left, their ideals are still alive. Besides, that gate is gone, unless someone is able to rebuild it, so their official reason for existing is gone. Now they exist to protect their city and their people and nothing else.

I just think that Ceila might argue that the hobgoblins had families tooMaybe the Hobgoblins too decided that mercy in war was a mistake before they slaughtered the common foot soldiers who had likely never even seen a hobgoblin before that day.

And I have always felt that the Paladins killing non-combatant and underage goblins was totally out of whack! It felt like those scenes in RPGs where high priest turns out to be evil just BECAUSE he was the high priest!
War is ugly, isn't it?

Killing that hobgoblin was by no means an overblown revenge. It is simple atrittion: kill enemy soldiers faster than your soldiers are being killed. There is no revenge, no hatred. Just a job to do. And being a high level, this is the job Haley and Belkar do well.

This is war. Hobgoblins are willing combatants. They should be killed if Asure City is to be liberated. Haley does not know the state of AC and SG forces. Maybe they have gathered 50000 allies and are planning an assault. As battle has shown, hobgoblins are tough soldiers. They assaulted fortifications, they suffered severe losses in hands of OOtS and V's 13 super-soldiers on the breach. And still, they got about even causalties with the Asurians. Now, when those are Asurians scaling the walls, a single hobgoblin can mean 5 or 10 of them dead.

As for explaining gory details to Celia. Well, that is to show that war is war. "Do not kill" is a rule that war tends to break a lot.

I agree that one can make a good argument that situations is not fair to goblinkind. That treatment of Asurians, as harsh as it is, is more merciful that goblins was treated. But Haley is not of the goblins side. She and her friends have a world to save. Lives of hobgoblin soldiers is not a big price here.

[gm_rand]

We'll I've never been in a game with a Paladin taking part in genocide. If I remember right the code prevents them killing a defenseless foe or in cold blood its a violation even if they ping "EVIL" on the smitedar. If some paladin lays waste to a goblin orphanage or some other such slaughter of defenseless children , even if evil, the DM in that game should have taken action.

On another note. Not all of the armed forces of the Azure City are Paladins. So the destruction of Red Cloaks home may not have been carried out by paladins.

[monty]

What are you all talking about? Killing a gnome is a good thing. If anything, Belkar should be worried about an alignment change.

[Alex Warlorn]

What are you all talking about? Killing a gnome is a good thing. If anything, Belkar should be worried about an alignment change.



What the heck do people have AGAINST gnomes anyway?

[monty]

What the heck do people have AGAINST gnomes anyway?

Everything. At least they're better than those stupid elves, though. And don't get me started on humans.

[Querzis]

We'll I've never been in a game with a Paladin taking part in genocide. If I remember right the code prevents them killing a defenseless foe or in cold blood its a violation even if they ping "EVIL" on the smitedar. If some paladin lays waste to a goblin orphanage or some other such slaughter of defenseless children , even if evil, they DM in that game should have taken action.

Except that in the OOTS world there is no DM, only gods who arent really good and created lots of sentient races, like goblins, only to be exterminated by other races to gain XP. Therefore, a paladin cant fall and people wont go to evil or even neutral afterlife no matter what they do to monster races since the gods just dont care about them and gods are the ones who decide that sort of things. And I'm pretty sure a goblin soul will go to evil afterlife regardless of what he did when he was alive though I dont remember that being specified anywhere in SoD but it would be logical.

And yes, the destruction of Redcloak home was carried out by paladins. SoD is a great book.

[gm_rand]

Ah yeah forgot OOTS world. Slipped back into the D&D generic there. Thanks Querzis.

[factotum]

Haley is Chaotic Good, so she won't do anything particularly nasty to Belkar. If it was ME, I would let him hitch the gnome's donkey to the cart, then say, "Hey, now we have this donkey we don't need you to pull the cart anymore, Belkar,", tie him up, and put him in the cart. I'd turn him over to the police in the next town.

[David Argall]

We'll I've never been in a game with a Paladin taking part in genocide. If I remember right the code prevents them killing a defenseless foe or in cold blood its a violation even if they ping "EVIL" on the smitedar. If some paladin lays waste to a goblin orphanage or some other such slaughter of defenseless children , even if evil, they DM in that game should have taken action.

On another note. Not all of the armed forces of the Azure City are Paladins. So the destruction of Red Cloaks home may not have been carried out by paladins.

SoD It is possible some of the attackers were not paladins, but for our purposes there would have to be none or almost no paladins present and that seems quite unlikely. They are all dressed in what we deem a paladin outfit, we hear talk of "Sapphire Guard" which implies that a large percentage of the attackers are paladins, and the older Redcloak talks about setting off their evil radar, again a rather clear reference to paladins.
And once we get beyond the tiny number range, there is no way to excuse any battlefield events on grounds like the paladins didn't know what was happening. We come back to the paladins engaging in behavior that looks distinctly un-paladinish and need to explain why they did not fall.
My own preference is that we see a distinctly biased picture, that the "innocent" goblins were in fact overwhelmingly evil. This is consistent with what we see in the strip itself and does not require us to assume our writer grossly ignored the rules of the game.

[Lunaya]

Can Roy, or anyone, turn it off? I was under the impression that once the Mark is activated, it's game over.
I've wondered about that myself. Just how long are the effects of the MoJ supposed to last? For that matter, what exactly does it do? We know it'll make Belkar "sick" to the point that he can't hurt anyone, but that's kind of vague. Maybe it'll have a similar effect to that debilitating poison Roy was afflicted with early in the comic?

In any event, I don't think anyone but Roy actually knows the details of the MoJ. I don't know if Haley would risk letting him activate it without knowing just how long Belkar would be incapacitated. Lugging around a sick halfling could prove to be more of an annoyance for her than it's worth.

[Justinian]

Ugh. I hate players like Belkar. :smallmad:

If you yourself are not playing an evil character, the only logical / rational / sane thing to do would be for your character to completely disassociate yourself with their character, at the very least... if not go kill-on-site and / or contact the authorities.

If you don't, you badly break character immersion for the sake of meta-game concerns like "oh it was just an unimportant NPC, what's the big deal?" Well, ostensibly, it's a big deal because I'm not a 28 year-old human accountant named Steven at the moment (YMMV), I'm currently a 69 year old dwarven fighter named Wulfgar and you just murdered someone as real as I am in front of my eyes for no just cause and presumably no cause at all other than for shiggles.

Now, maybe I'm a heartless mercenary and I just don't care. Maybe I'm mad because I'm also a psychotic and you stole my idea by killing him first. However, let's say I'm not - which is more than likely, considering simply not liking the murder of random innocents is well within the bounds of over half the alignments and almost all the ones most PCs use - if I do nothing because I don't like making waves with the other players or for the sake of group unity or for anything like that, then I've used meta-game information to make my character behave in an absurd way.

And of course, everytime you do that, you destroy the game from an RP perspective - the only way to recover is self-induced, spontaneous, retrograde amnesia (i.e. uhhhh my character didn't see it... what gnome... oh, uhhh, yeah, he was coming right for us!)

[monty]

I've wondered about that myself. Just how long are the effects of the MoJ supposed to last? For that matter, what exactly does it do? We know it'll make Belkar "sick" to the point that he can't hurt anyone, but that's kind of vague. Maybe it'll have a similar effect to that debilitating poison Roy was afflicted with early in the comic?

In any event, I don't think anyone but Roy actually knows the details of the MoJ. I don't know if Haley would risk letting him activate it without knowing just how long Belkar would be incapacitated. Lugging around a sick halfling could prove to be more of an annoyance for her than it's worth.

Assuming it's the same Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm) as the official one, it's permanent and has the same effect as Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm). So it wouldn't make him sick so much as make his combat skills suck (which is the point) and it would last indefinitely - also, no mention of un-activating it.

[LtNOWIS]

I'd probably chew him out, than keep moving. When they're making camp or something, talk to Celia about what to do with him. If there aren't any good magical solutions, seriously consider killing him in his sleep.


However, let's say I'm not - which is more than likely, considering simply not liking the murder of random innocents is well within the bounds of over half the alignments and almost all the ones most PCs use - if I do nothing because I don't like making waves with the other players or for the sake of group unity or for anything like that, then I've used meta-game information to make my character behave in an absurd way.


Well, that is a good point.

Not to depress everyone, but remember that a lot of people in real life tolerate bad behavior when they "don't like making waves." Consider criminal gangs or war criminals; often the group loyalty or intimidation overrides someone's conscience.

Of course, it might not be fun to play a character who's really a good guy but is just too intimidated to confront their teammate.

[Lunaya]

Assuming it's the same Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm) as the official one, it's permanent and has the same effect as Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm). So it wouldn't make him sick so much as make his combat skills suck (which is the point) and it would last indefinitely - also, no mention of un-activating it.

Except that right after the Mark was bestowed, Belkar and V were fighting, and Roy questioned why he shouldn't just activate the Mark and leave Belkar "writhing in the road until the next Owlbear comes along". That sounds worse than the traditional MoJ.

[Greg]

Assuming it's the same Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm) as the official one, it's permanent and has the same effect as Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm). So it wouldn't make him sick so much as make his combat skills suck (which is the point) and it would last indefinitely - also, no mention of un-activating it.
-6 to his STR would be pretty bad - would lower his encubrance. Same with CON. 50% chance of taking no action as well.

It also says other results can be chosen (Roy says Belkar would get sicker and sicker).

[gm_rand]

All right first off I’d like to say I’ve always disliked the D&D alignment system and how some people apply it to the game. The thing is it just doesn’t work as a black and white end all be all law. Yes it provides a moral beacon for a character and is made to keep a player for letting their character be all over the place as the winds of fancy change and is needed due to game mechanics. But when you come down to it there is no logical way to stick alignments as they are defined in the rulebooks on sentient humanoid.

The thing is a persons moral code can often be bent or totally broken in various situations. Does such an infraction constitute and alignment change if the character reverts back to the normal moral code of their alignment after the infraction and extenuating circumstances have passed? There are many things that can and should cause a character to break their alignment at times. Those trump cards are often selfishness, survival, greed, hate, anger and love or other variations there of.

Question. What’s most important to Haley right now? Getting back to Elan. What else? Getting Roy back. Third? Paying off her father’s debt and saving him. Okay it looks like most of us see Haley as Something/Good. Now would a good person let bad things happen right in front of them? Yes! Millions of good people do this everyday and will do so to the end of time. Now why is it so hard for us to realize that Haley (a good character) who is battle hardened (even more so now then before) would act as she has concerning the death of the gnome? As in the latest issue she knows to get what she really wants she needs both Celia and Belkar. Yes Belkar is a murdering evil bastard (and I love him for it) but he also needs Roy back as does Celia. The ends don’t always justify the means but when it comes to some things and some people, as in Haley and her love and need to get back to Elan, you’ll find breaking “alignment” is warranted to stay true to the character.

The thing is what people will and will not do according to an alignment is subject to change in the circumstances.

“What would you do if you were Haley?” What can she do? She needs Belkar and Celia to get what she wants. Even a good person will step on someone they don’t know (or over their dead body because a Halfling killed them) for selfish reasons. Is it good? No. Does that magically make them no longer a good person? That depends on the level of one’s own hypocrisy. Honor, morals and good all have trump cards and it’s just a matter of finding what it is for that character.

Character emersion is fine. But one shouldn't let "alignment" keep the character from doing the things they would. Like makeing bedfellows with people that just randomly kill NPCs at a whim.