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Glyde
2008-03-14, 05:12 PM
The Vow of Poverty - a feat that allows one to give up material goods for oddly powerful abilities. Pretty much your generic old guy in homemade clothes, a big hat, sandals and a walking stick (Think cheesy kung fu movie old man). My DM and I have decided that in order to set the characters straight, I'll have to temporarily take control of an exalted character of... 'Interesting' proportions.

The rules are simple - Human, old age, Sacred Vow - Vow of Poverty at first level, ECL of 6 (Maybe 7). I'm mostly having trouble with the choice of class.

Vow of Poverty:
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3103/povertygn3.jpg


Fighter and Cleric have both crossed my mind, though *anything* could lead to an interesting partner. Any suggestions?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-14, 05:15 PM
I'm half tempted to shout "MUNCHKINRY!", half tempted to say "finally, a balanced VoP!" I'll have to look at it in depth.

Glyde
2008-03-14, 05:19 PM
He won't last long. He'll be filling in the gap while my normal character is er... 'out of commission'.

The amazing number of feats he could amount in such a short span of time is what is really throwing me off. I hate having a huge choice <_>

I have most of the books, so almost anything goes. Specifically stuff from the Book of Exalted Deeds would be great.

dman11235
2008-03-14, 05:33 PM
Now, I'm really confused at Azerian Kelimon's post. Wha?

Anyway, you could always go with the typical monk (Fist of the Forest if you have CChamp!). Works well flavor wise with the feat (though not so much mechanics wise). For mechanics, straight druid benefits the most from VoP. Cleric doesn't work without DM fiat due to holy symbols costing money. Fighters are way too item dependent to make a good one. Incarnate might work (or Totemist) if you have MoI. And binder might work too if you have ToM. Spell casters just win at life (sorcerers are my favorite and wizards are inherently shallow and un-charitable (the spell book costs money)) Keep in mind that VoP is weaker than having items until you reach epic levels, at which it becomes better. On the wizards boards there is the epic vow. Play to the strength of sheer numbers and you might be fine.

expirement10K14
2008-03-14, 05:33 PM
VoP monks can actually be amazing. The monks inability to use weapons makes VoP's main setback not effect you.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-14, 05:37 PM
Now, I'm really confused at Azerian Kelimon's post. Wha?

Anyway, you could always go with the typical monk (Fist of the Forest if you have CChamp!). Works well flavor wise with the feat (though not so much mechanics wise). For mechanics, straight druid benefits the most from VoP. Cleric doesn't work without DM fiat due to holy symbols costing money. Fighters are way too item dependent to make a good one. Incarnate might work (or Totemist) if you have MoI. And binder might work too if you have ToM. Spell casters just win at life (sorcerers are my favorite and wizards are inherently shallow and un-charitable (the spell book costs money)) Keep in mind that VoP is weaker than having items until you reach epic levels, at which it becomes better. On the wizards boards there is the epic vow. Play to the strength of sheer numbers and you might be fine.

The reason I'm thinking that way is simple: Look at the number of things you get! It's very easy to overload a character with features to compensate, and i have a bad feeling there's something grossly broken in there.

dman11235
2008-03-14, 05:44 PM
Monks are heavily item dependent though. They need those AC boosting items to have a remotely decent AC (without PrCs like FotF), and they need attack and damage boosting things to be viable in melee.

No, why are you saying "finally, a balanced VoP!"? He has the original in there.

Also, what of those things would a character with wealth get? All of it, typically. Except for the regeneration (the ring's not worth it) and the +8 ability item (until epic). And the feats (you run out of good ones fast). A character with wealth will have more +6 enhancements and a higher deflection/natural armor bonus/resistance bonus. I don't think there is anything grossly broken in the feat. Except maybe in the hands of druids, but that's a druid. And maybe at epic in the hands of a multi-class monk. Maybe.

mostlyharmful
2008-03-14, 05:50 PM
VoP monks can actually be amazing. The monks inability to use weapons makes VoP's main setback not effect you.

Flight, miss chance, DR penetration, skill boosters, invisibility, potions of all stripes... There's a LOT that a none caster of any sort gives up with VoP and that's not even taking into account out of combat problems like tolls, renting passage on ships, spellcasting for hire for transport, info retrieval & status condition aliviation. :smallfrown:

Casters can somewhat get around this and of them Druid and Sorc are the only core that don't need houserules to fit VoP.

Glyde
2008-03-14, 05:51 PM
Remember, the guy won't last long. He's only there to put the evil characters in their place. He's only going to be around for 6th or 7th level if everything goes well.

Divine symbols aren't a problem. There are a couple ways to circumvent it, one being the *reason* he's here, the second being that he could just carve one out of wood that works just as well.

Cleric is still looking fairly good. If I were to get a high wisdom, then Intuitive attack, he'd be hitting a fair amount at that level. Combine that with Spikes on his wooden weapon and you're doing a good amount of damage.

Another thing is that "Characters with wealth" aren't too much of a problem. Our party is very poor for the level we're at, right now. Our groups don't tend to play with items like "CIRCLET OF AMAZING +100 STR LOLZ". They just detract from a characters individuality.

dman11235
2008-03-14, 06:02 PM
Spikes as in a spell? Or spikes as in an item? Cause the second one can't be used. Also, druids: natural attacks. Monks with a level of Shiba Protector (OA) if possible and Intuitive attack: wisdom twice to attack and once to damage. At this level flight isn't a problem, and if you aren't going to use him after level 8 or so you won't need flight. If you were a higher level (10+) I'd say do a sorcerer/monk/enlightened fist. Might be able to have it work now though. But remember: charisma and not wisdom: Ascetic Mage (CAdv).

BTW: stereotypical old man who whups butt in anime and uses nothing but kung fu: unarmed swordsage with VoP.

mostlyharmful
2008-03-14, 06:08 PM
Divine symbols aren't a problem. There are a couple ways to circumvent it, one being the *reason* he's here, the second being that he could just carve one out of wood that works just as well.

The moment it's carved well enough to serve as a holy symbol it takes on the value of the holy symbol. If you make it and carry it around then its clearly a possession of yours. If it's a valuable possession of yours that isn't on the list (remember VoP isn't a matter of not having any money or valuables, its adhereing to a list of whats allowed which doesn't include a holy symbol) then you forfit the feat and all benefits.

That being said, adding a wooden symbol to the list or letting them tatoo a symbol onto their chests before taking the feat that works the same are both good houserules.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-14, 06:08 PM
ECS Cloistered Cleric - 5, Sovereign Speaker -2.

Spellcasting as a Cleric -6, +3 BAB, Doesn't need a Holy Symbol anymore as a SS-2 (Could always carve one out of wood or have another cleric pray one up for him and VoP doesn't preclude a divine caster from having a holy symbol unless it is an expensive one since the VoP feat on page 48 allows the PC to carry and use a spell component pouch (5GP value in the PHB) since it doesn't say in the PHB that Wooden Holy Symbols (1GP) are not contained in the spell component pouch in fact the PHB says Holy Symbol Silver or Wood (1GP) A holy symbol focuses positive energy. A cleric or paladin uses it as the focus for his spells and as a tool for turning undead.


He gets Knowledge +4 other domains so he could take the travel domain for Fly.

Factotum -3, Marshal -1 (Motivate Aura Intelligence), Swordsage -2 (Monk variant), Warblade -1 could be pretty interesting with IPs and using the Carmendine Monk Feat for Int to AC instead of Wis.

Gestalt Paladin - 6//Favored Soul - 6 Saint

dman11235
2008-03-14, 06:25 PM
VoP has a specific set of things allowed, and holy symbol is not one of them. I, however, HR it that a simple wooden one counts and doesn't disobey the feat.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-14, 07:13 PM
VoP has a specific set of things allowed, and holy symbol is not one of them. I, however, HR it that a simple wooden one counts and doesn't disobey the feat.

Yes it does but it also says the PC with a VoP can have a spellcasting pouch (5 GP) . It doesn't say arcane or divine spellcasting pouch or limit it or specify it to certain classes like only sorcerers or wizards and not druids or clerics or noncasters even.

A holy symbol is a divine focus for divine spellcasting which makes it a component.

Check where the holy symbol/divine focus is located in the spell description under component

Eschew Materials would also do the trick since DF is list under components in spells and valued at 1 GP.

Since a cleric needs one to cast his spells no reason there aren't several different types of holy symbols in the divine spellcasting pouch (Amulet, Talisman, Necklace, Holy Signet Ring of Office or other Holy Icon of significance to the faith like small prayer books) to facilitate divine spellcasting out in the field away from the church or temple.

For Roleplaying purposes this is a nice way for a VoP PC particularly a holy man type PC to be able to give a NPC a "nice" but modest gift in game. Casters can get them with a spell from the SC other PCs can craft them out of wood or other material.

Worldly Focus in FoE also fulfills the requirement for a Holy Symbol.

slexlollar89
2008-03-14, 07:53 PM
Be a warlock. Nothing says Eldritch Blast can't be non lethal, and they can get some mad invocations. The only downside is no UMD. Take Darkness and Devil's Sight with the feat from Drow of the Underdark that allows darkness sp to be used as swift actions and you can never be harmed.

Cuddly
2008-03-14, 07:57 PM
The reason I'm thinking that way is simple: Look at the number of things you get! It's very easy to overload a character with features to compensate, and i have a bad feeling there's something grossly broken in there.

lolerskates.

You're looking at the ORIGINAL VoP and saying it's overpowered? Hahahahaha!

dyslexicfaser
2008-03-14, 08:13 PM
VoP is solid at, say, levels 1-10. But after that, the lack of flight and DR penetration can screw you in various circumstances, if you're a melee class.

It's generally acknowledged that VoP druids are the best use of that feat, since they can wildshape and hang onto their exalted bonuses.

Cuddly
2008-03-14, 08:22 PM
Touch of Golden Ice would be a brutal feat at those low levels, when there's an actual chance stuff would fail their will saves.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-14, 08:27 PM
lolerskates.

You're looking at the ORIGINAL VoP and saying it's overpowered? Hahahahaha!

Sorry, but that's certainly not the VoP in my BoED. I have it right here and it onyl gives you stuff every second level.

dyslexicfaser
2008-03-14, 08:45 PM
Dunno what to tell ya, AK, but that's how it is in my copy of BoED.

Cuddly
2008-03-14, 08:52 PM
Sorry, but that's certainly not the VoP in my BoED. I have it right here and it onyl gives you stuff every second level.

There's a table that sums it all up on like page 30 or something. That's definitely the VoP in the book.

Now, if someone hadn't told you that VoP was bad, would you have been able to tell if it was bad? Because a lot of players, and DMs, have the same reaction that you just did- "wow, look at all that stuf! It must be awesome!" without realizing how much versatility and power comes from magic items in D&D.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-14, 09:17 PM
Seeing how there was a feat that granted you flight, one for invisibility, and a last one that could replicate any spell from 5th level or lower at will, no.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-14, 09:24 PM
If you have ToB, a VoP Swordsage (Unarmed Variant) can be quite interesting.

Basically, you trade off your light armor proficency (since you can't afford any anyways) for monk unarmed damge progression.

Focus on the four Disciplines which allow Unarmed as a favored weapon: Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw.

Congratulatoins, you're a Monk, in the classic sense of the word (or at least in the Kung Fu Flicks sense of the word). You've taken a vow of poverty, probably bald, and can kick major ass unarmed.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-14, 09:35 PM
There's no reason not to take maneuvers in other disciplines though, it's not like there's any penalty for not using a preferred weapon. All that matters are what Disciplines you tag for your Discipline Focus, and that works no matter what stance or technique you're using. Except for Defensive Stance of course.

Though, presumably you'll be a dex monkey, so Shadow Hand + Shadow Blade + Weapon Finesse is a given.

Squash Monster
2008-03-14, 10:08 PM
Seconded on unarmed swordsage. There's a vop unarmed swordsage in my group and he does very well. Fun combo, too.

And vop is awesome for druid. Heck, so is being an old man. It's one of the most powerful druids you can make.

dman11235
2008-03-14, 10:28 PM
Yes it does but it also says the PC with a VoP can have a spellcasting pouch (5 GP) . It doesn't say arcane or divine spellcasting pouch or limit it or specify it to certain classes like only sorcerers or wizards and not druids or clerics or noncasters even.

A holy symbol is a divine focus for divine spellcasting which makes it a component.

Check where the holy symbol/divine focus is located in the spell description under component

Eschew Materials would also do the trick since DF is list under components in spells and valued at 1 GP.

Since a cleric needs one to cast his spells no reason there aren't several different types of holy symbols in the divine spellcasting pouch (Amulet, Talisman, Necklace, Holy Signet Ring of Office or other Holy Icon of significance to the faith like small prayer books) to facilitate divine spellcasting out in the field away from the church or temple.

For Roleplaying purposes this is a nice way for a VoP PC particularly a holy man type PC to be able to give a NPC a "nice" but modest gift in game. Casters can get them with a spell from the SC other PCs can craft them out of wood or other material.

Worldly Focus in FoE also fulfills the requirement for a Holy Symbol.

You realize that DF/=material component. Focuses in general are not material components, and as such do not come in a spell component pouch (which is the same arcane or divine), and cannot be ignored with Eschew Materials. Also, component /= material component.

@Azerian: what? where be these overpowered feats? Also, it is clearly a scan of that page in the BoED.

And I second (third?) the unarmed swordsage (as I was the first to suggest it).

And an easy way to get around the lack of flight: Raptoran. +0 LA races that grants flight. I love those things. And make it shadow (LoM) and grab the Darkstalker feat (also LoM) to cover the invisibility thing. You just need a good hide/move silently score. Even fool blindsight! In addition, this will get you fast healing.

@Gamma: sure you aren't restricted to using preferred weapons, but generally the paths that have a certain weapon as a favored weapon will, well, favor it more. And those four are the four that make the monk image (Setting Sun for tactical maneuvers, shadow hand for supernatural and sneaky stuff, stone dragon for the punch through wall effect, and tiger claw for the feral aspects).

Smiley_
2008-03-14, 10:35 PM
I got VoP to work with a build that is kinda interesting.

Druid/Apostle of Peace

You have the vow of non-violence, high charisma and wisdom scores, the ability to shatter weapons that hit you without damage, enchanted or otherwise, subdual spell metamagic and strike, and a nice spell list from the AoP.

I need to dig up the details, but it works.

Zincorium
2008-03-14, 11:14 PM
Seeing how there was a feat that granted you flight, one for invisibility, and a last one that could replicate any spell from 5th level or lower at will, no.

Er, you mind telling me where these feats are? Because they seem a bit more useful than any other feat. Anywhere.


Lastly, compare the benefits of VoP to a character equipped with full wealth by level by a reasonably intelligent player. VoP is ok, but it doesn't give a single thing that can't be replicated by magic items for a reasonable expense, and gold will buy you much better ability scores when you include the various tomes in the analysis.

VoP is for when you either can't use items very well (druid in wildshape) or your DM is being very stingy with gold/takes away items and throws you into jail cells at unpredictable intervals.

Glyde
2008-03-14, 11:26 PM
The vow of nonviolence/peace is taking it too far, I think. The evil characters' weapons are expensive, and having them shatter over my head doing no damage might be a little much OOC.

Unarmed swordsage seems the best bet aside from cleric. Also, I sort of thought it was assumed that VoP let you use simple things that you created yourself, such as clothing, and that a carving of a divine symbol would work. If not, I'm sure it could be easily houseruled.

Swordsage is in Tomb of Battle I gather, then? At least that's what I can see from all these acronyms that I'm unfamiliar with >_>

I'm going for mostly wisdom with Intuitive attack and the other one someone mentioned. Being an old man gives a boost to the mental stats and a penalty to the physical ones if I remember correctly.

And as a quick aside, arguing about wealth being better than VoP is totally out of the question 100% and really doesn't contribute anything. There are many times when people play the game for more than the mechanics of things.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-14, 11:34 PM
You realize that DF/=material component. Focuses in general are not material components, and as such do not come in a spell component pouch (which is the same arcane or divine), and cannot be ignored with Eschew Materials. Also, component /= material component.



You are arguing a cleric cannot acquire and use a divine focus under the VoP limitations without breaking the VoP in all games under RAW except by using a house rule which is what I disagree with.

This is the same VoP that lets the PC carry around simple weapons (Some are expensive simple weapons like heavy crossbows at 50 gp).

The VoP RAW does not prohibit the use of "simple weapon holy symbols" (The minimal 1 GP market value added to a quarterstaff or a light mace to retain spellcasting wouldn't break the Vow since it only stipulates no masterwork or magical weapons).

Zincorium
2008-03-14, 11:34 PM
Unarmed swordsage seems the best bet aside from cleric. Also, I sort of thought it was assumed that VoP let you use simple things that you created yourself, such as clothing, and that a carving of a divine symbol would work. If not, I'm sure it could be easily houseruled.

I'm going for mostly wisdom with Intuitive attack and the other one someone mentioned. Being an old man gives a boost to the mental stats and a penalty to the physical ones if I remember correctly.

Swordsage bases almost everything on wisdom, so you're good there. There's also an unarmed strike variant that gives you the unarmed strike progression of a monk, so that might be worth looking into.


And as a quick aside, arguing about wealth being better than VoP is totally out of the question 100% and really doesn't contribute anything. There are many times when people play the game for more than the mechanics of things.

I agree, but it was a response to Azerian Kellimon screeching about it being munchkinry. It's not.

The only problem with VoP I've run into is that when you get it at first level, you run out of useful exalted feats to take much more quickly than you'd think. Still, free feats, right?

Chronos
2008-03-14, 11:41 PM
I agree, but it was a response to Azerian Kellimon screeching about it being munchkinry. It's not.Or more precisely, it is often munchkinry, it's just not successful munchkinry. I suspect that most folks who take Vow of Poverty do so because they (mistakenly) believe that it's über-awesome-pwnz0rs.

And the confusion over what the book does and does not say about VoP is probably because it doesn't say it all in one place. There's a brief description in the feat itself, and then there's a whole section on the effects of voluntary poverty. If you're just looking at the feats section, you'll miss a lot.

Glyde
2008-03-15, 02:18 PM
I can't seem to find the unarmed swordsage variant in the ToB >_>

I'm probably being really stupid, but can someone point me in the right direction?

Zincorium
2008-03-15, 03:06 PM
I can't seem to find the unarmed swordsage variant in the ToB >_>

I'm probably being really stupid, but can someone point me in the right direction?

Page 20, under 'Adaptation'.

Ignore the arcane swordsage thingy, it's double-plus broken.

playswithfire
2008-03-15, 03:07 PM
Page 20, under adaptation. Basically, lose proficiency with light armor and gain monk's unarmed damage. very good trade.

Aquillion
2008-03-15, 03:11 PM
You realize that DF/=material component. Focuses in general are not material components, and as such do not come in a spell component pouch (which is the same arcane or divine), and cannot be ignored with Eschew Materials. Also, component /= material component.Actually, focuses come in the spell component pouch with the same rules material components do...


A focus component is a prop of some sort. Unlike a material component, a focus is not consumed when the spell is cast and can be reused. As with material components, the cost for a focus is negligible unless a price is given. Assume that focus components of negligible cost are in your spell component pouch.Now. You'd have to argue that 1 gp is 'negligible', which is difficult given how it's defined in the sentence immediately previous. And divine focuses are defined seperately from regular focuses. (But I'll bet there's some arcane spell out there that uses a divine focus as a regular focus, so to speak. That would mean it can be assumed to be in a spell component pouch, if you accept that 1 gp = negligible... which Eschew Materials seems to think is true, anyway.)

But I thought I should point that out, at least, since it's important to any spellcaster

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-15, 03:11 PM
You gain points in awesome for the 1984 reference.

Now, on the subject of those feats I mentioned, I can't remember the book they are in, but they had some really hefty penalties. The one that granted flight permanently took 2 points from all of your stats, the invisibility one sapped a tenth of your max life every round it was active, and the one that allowed you to cast any 5th level or lower spell either drained you or damaged every stat except CHA (Which was used as the casting stat) by 4 points for every use, even ignoring magic items that prevent drain or damage. Pretty heavy penalties for correspondingly strong feats.

Glyde
2008-03-15, 06:53 PM
I have to say I love each and every one of you. This is going to be a fun temporary character to roleplay. Hell, he might even be around longer than intended XD

Thanks so much