templates

[Truffles]

are there any templates that dont have an LA adjustment

[Serpent]

That kind of defeats the purpose of using a template, doesn't it?

Could you be more specific?

[Nebo_]

Yes.

This is what you get for not providing more information.

[Magnor Criol]

*golf clap for Nebo*



Serpent's right, though - the main point of templates is generally to increase the abilities of a creature, so increasing LA is pretty standard. Many, if not most, if not all of them increase LA more than they do CR, in fact.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Well, Dragonborn technically is a template without LA. It's not that great though.

[Collin152]

Yes. The blue-haired template has no level adjustment.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Here's two:

+0 LA Planetouched from PGtF.

+0 LA Magebred from ECS for Animals like the Oriental Adventures Hengeyokei.

[BRC]

The Templated Template from Complete Nonsense

Templated
The base creature gains the Templated template, it now has a template.
LA: +0

[Collin152]

+0 LA Magebred from ECS for Animals like the Oriental Adventures Hengeyokei.

People don't typically play animals.

Doesn't Spellstitched have LA +0?

LA adjustment
ATM machine.
PIN number.

[Nebo_]

Off the top of my head, I can think of about seix LA +0 Templates.



+0 LA Planetouched from PGtF.


Those aren't templates, they're races.


People don't typically play animals.

Yes, but with the level of information he's given us, that's what he gets.


ATM machine.
PIN number.

Nicely done.

[Collin152]

Yes, but with the level of information he's given us, that's what he gets.


I'm just saying, what would an animal do with a level adjustment?

[DementedFellow]

Refresh my memory people - the undead template - does it add LA?

[Nebo_]

If you mean Necropolitan, no. Technically. You lose a level, but you're free of LA.



I'm just saying, what would an animal do with a level adjustment?

It would probably complain. In one of my games we have a dog Fighter/Barbarian who follows us around. I suppose an LA would be bad in a situation like that. But Dogmeat is far too cool for LA.

[Chronos]

ATM machine.
PIN number.I stopped complaining about "ATM machine" when I realized that "ATM" is redundant all by itself. What would you expect? An automated teller person? A manual teller machine?

[Collin152]

I stopped complaining about "ATM machine" when I realized that "ATM" is redundant all by itself. What would you expect? An automated teller person? A manual teller machine?

At least it isn't repeatign itself, it's just being needlesly specific.
Besides, everythings better with three digits.

[jcsw]

At least it isn't repeatign itself, it's just being needlesly specific.
Besides, everythings better with three digits.

Yes it is, Automated-teller-machine machine.

And why would you need a template which has LA +0 anyway?

[Collin152]

Yes it is, Automated-teller-machine machine.

And why would you need a template which has LA +0 anyway?

Free stat boosts?

[Nebo_]

And why would you need a template which has LA +0 anyway?

To get abilities you didn't have before...

[The_Snark]

Here's two:

+0 LA Planetouched from PGtF.

+0 LA Magebred from ECS for Animals like the Oriental Adventures Hengeyokei.

Hengeyokei aren't animals. They're shapechangers in 3.0 and humanoids in 3.5. And I've no idea where you got any LA for Magebred; the ECS doesn't give it an LA.

And as has been noted, the planetouched aren't templates.

There aren't really any +0 LA templates that I know of. Templates add something, which generally makes you more powerful. I guess a template that added some abilities and gave penalties in exchange might be LA +0, but I don't believe any exist.

[Collin152]

So, spellstitched does have an LA?

[RTGoodman]

Isn't there a LA +0 template from Dragon called "Magic-Blooded" that gives +2 Cha, -2 Wis or something like that?

[sonofzeal]

Incarnate Construct has a negative LA, if that helps...

[Mewtarthio]

There aren't really any +0 LA templates that I know of. Templates add something, which generally makes you more powerful. I guess a template that added some abilities and gave penalties in exchange might be LA +0, but I don't believe any exist.

There's Necropolitan.

[Dhavaer]

ATM machine.
PIN number.

LA adjustment isn't quite that silly; the template is adjusting your LA (adjusting it from +1 to +2 in the case of a dark hobgoblin, say).

[The_Snark]

Spellstitched is LA -.

... even though they give instructions for how to apply it, and note that intelligent undead who meet the prerequisites can apply it to themselves. Blah.

[Nebo_]

I don't believe any exist.

Magic Blooded
Primordial Giant
Incarnate Construct
Necropolitan (Sort of)
Spellstitched (Maybe)
Vampire Lord

Oh, Snap!

[Collin152]

LA adjustment isn't quite that silly; the template is adjusting your LA (adjusting it from +1 to +2 in the case of a dark hobgoblin, say).

The explanation is sillier than the stnank.

[The_Snark]

Magic Blooded
Primordial Giant
Incarnate Construct
Necropolitan (Sort of)
Spellstitched (Maybe)
Vampire Lord

Oh, Snap!

Templates of unusual size LA +0? I don't believe they exist.

*is leaped upon by necropolitans*

(But spellstitched is technically LA -, Incarnate Construct has negative LA, the Vampire Lord doesn't give an LA but can be assumed to have one, what with giving a +3 CR increase, and I've never heard of the other two.)

[CASTLEMIKE]

Hengeyokei aren't animals. They're shapechangers in 3.0 and humanoids in 3.5. And I've no idea where you got any LA for Magebred; the ECS doesn't give it an LA.

And as has been noted, the planetouched aren't templates.

There aren't really any +0 LA templates that I know of. Templates add something, which generally makes you more powerful. I guess a template that added some abilities and gave penalties in exchange might be LA +0, but I don't believe any exist.

Hengeyokai first paragraph, page 10 of Oriental adventures: Hengeyokai are intelligent, shapechanging animals, able to shift freely between human and animal forms, as well as a bidpedal animalistic form.

ECS page 295 "Magebred Animal" is an inherited template that can be applied to any living animal. (OE Hengeyokai are the only ones that came to mind but I'm sure with all the source books there is something else out there).

The example used is a Magebred heavy warhorse LA -, CR1 the same as a standard heavy warhorse:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/horse.htm#horseHeavy

Regarding the planetouched not being a template you are correct however they are a +1 ECL race normally and there is an option of playing them as a +0 ECL race in PGtF.

[Collin152]

Templates of unusual size LA +0? I don't believe they exist.

*is leaped upon by necropolitans*

(But spellstitched is technically LA -, Incarnate Construct has negative LA, the Vampire Lord doesn't give an LA but can be assumed to have one, what with giving a +3 CR increase, and I've never heard of the other two.)

Plus, Vampire Lord must be applied to a vampire, which carries a massive LA.

[Nebo_]

But spellstitched is technically LA -


My bad.


Incarnate Construct has negative LA
Even better. It balances out to +0 if you apply +2 worth of templates and attatch it to a warforged.


the Vampire Lord doesn't give an LA but can be assumed to have one, what with giving a +3 CR increase,

That's what I get for not checking first.


and I've never heard of the other two.

Magic Blooded is from some 3.0 book that gives -2 Wis, +2 Cha. Primordial giant is from Secrets of Xen'drik. It only applies to giants, so it's kind of useless for anything but a half giant, in which case it's made of win.

[The_Snark]

Hengeyokai first paragraph, page 10 of Oriental adventures: Hengeyokai are intelligent, shapechanging animals, able to shift freely between human and animal forms, as well as a bidpedal animalistic form.

ECS page 295 "Magebred Animal" is an inherited template that can be applied to any living animal. (OE Hengeyokai are the only ones that came to mind but I'm sure with all the source books there is something else out there).

The example used is a Magebred heavy warhorse LA -, CR1 the same as a standard heavy warhorse:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/horse.htm#horseHeavy

Hengeyokei, despite that fluff sentence, are of the shapechanger type, or the humanoid type with the shapechanger subtype if you're using the 3.5 errata. The actual game statistics are what you need to look at. And LA - is not at all the same as LA 0. LA - is what you find on things that aren't playable.

Yeah... vampires. Lose 8 levels, die if you ever go out in sunlight.

[Chronos]

There's also the possibility of a template being balanced by virtue of adding racial HD instead of LA. There are certainly some templates which add both (Lycanthropes come to mind), and I wouldn't be surprised if there were one with just RHD.

[Nebo_]

There are no templates with only racial HD, but the Ambush Drake has 7 HD and no LA.

According to the master template list (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=854328), I missed one. Amphibious.

[The_Snark]

Even better. It balances out to +0 if you apply +2 worth of templates and attatch it to a warforged.

Heh. Then the fun of trying to justify it to your DM.

"My dark Lolth-touched warforged was... made by Lolth while she was vacationing on the Plane of Shadow? Wait, no Lolth? Aww... okay, draconic template, made by dragons? Shadow dragons adopted into House Cannith?"


Magic Blooded is from some 3.0 book that gives -2 Wis, +2 Cha. Primordial giant is from Secrets of Xen'drik. It only applies to giants, so it's kind of useless for anything but a half giant, in which case it's made of win.

Huh. You end up with -2 Str, -2 Dex, Int +4, Cha +4, and one useful spell-like ability at will, in exchange for LA +1. Might be balanced, although it's certainly on the powerful side with that spell-like ability.

Oh yes, amphibious. I actually knew about that one.

[Nebo_]

Heh. Then the fun of trying to justify it to your DM.

"My dark Lolth-touched warforged was... made by Lolth while she was vacationing on the Plane of Shadow? Wait, no Lolth? Aww... okay, draconic template, made by dragons? Shadow dragons adopted into House Cannith?"

Oh, if someone tried to get that past me, I'd throw my DMG at their eye. The important thing is that it works in theory.

[Collin152]

Oh, if someone tried to get that past me, I'd throw my DMG at their eye.

To encourage them to playa cleric of Gruumish?

[Nebo_]

To encourage them to playa cleric of Gruumish?

Mostly just to cause them pain, but I suppose a real character is an acceptable side effect.

[CASTLEMIKE]

The actual game statistics are what you need to look at. And LA - is not at all the same as LA 0. LA - is what you find on things that aren't playable.



Not all games use all sources which includes the errata. I probably play in a looser rules game than you do but we all have fun.

I cited my sources the hard cover game source books for the statistics. You are citing another source the errata. IMO we are both correct because each game places different emphasis on the interpretation of the rules. Really doubtful IMO that most games using Oriental Adventures and ECS will also bring a copy of the errata to the game for each source book in the game.

I agree that LA- is not the same as LA+0 normally but when a template does not increase LA or CR it is effectively +0 and it is each DM's call what is allowed in their games.

[Magnor Criol]

Not all games use all sources which includes the errata. I probably play in a looser rules game than you do but we all have fun.

I cited my sources the hard cover game source books for the statistics. You are citing another source the errata. IMO we are both correct because each game places different emphasis on the interpretation of the rules. Really doubtful IMO that most games using Oriental Adventures and ECS will also bring a copy of the errata to the game for each source book in the game.

I agree that LA- is not the same as LA+0 normally but when a template does not increase LA or CR it is effectively +0 and it is each DM's call what is allowed in their games.

It's not a matter of errata, if I recall correctly; it's actually an update, as in from 3.0 to 3.5. Assuming that I am remembering it correctly, then if you call that an errata, you have to call things like allowing animal companions to advance in HD and abilities, changing the Animal Empathy skill to the Wild Empathy class feature, and making Weapon Finesse apply to more than just one weapon at a time as simply "errata".

Of course, I could be recalling incorrectly, in which case I'm simply blowing smoke and you can simply disregard this.



I'd like to take this moment to note that Nebo and The Snark have filled this thread with win.

[CASTLEMIKE]

It's not a matter of errata, if I recall correctly; it's actually an update, as in from 3.0 to 3.5. Assuming that I am remembering it correctly, then if you call that an errata, you have to call things like allowing animal companions to advance in HD and abilities, changing the Animal Empathy skill to the Wild Empathy class feature, and making Weapon Finesse apply to more than just one weapon at a time as simply "errata".



Do I use my old 3.0 Core books? No.

Is there a 3.5 Oriental Adventures, ECS or FRCS source book? No.

Did the OP limit the source material? No.

Are Hengeyokai listed in the D20 SRD? No.

Regarding my use of errata this is what I was responding to:

Hengeyokei, despite that fluff sentence, are of the shapechanger type, or the humanoid type with the shapechanger subtype if you're using the 3.5 errata. The actual game statistics are what you need to look at. And LA - is not at all the same as LA 0. LA - is what you find on things that aren't playable.

[Magnor Criol]

Well, but The Snarky One was right in that respect - though the fluff may describe them as intelligent animals, and they may indeed by intelligent animals were you to interact with them in real life, as far as DnD stats go they're shapechangers, or humanoids, or whatever they ended up as.

If you play them as animals, and let them have things that apply only to animals apply to them, then that's fine - that's your prerogative. But be aware that that's houserule/DM fiat territory, not RAW territory. By RAW, they're not animals, they can't have animals-only effects and templates and such applied to them, and unlike animals, they can be played as PCs. (Animals can't have more than 2 intelligence by RAW, and thus can't really be playable characters without some special setups or DM fiats of their own.)

What I was referring to with the update-versus-errata bit was something I thought I remembered about them being actually released in some updated version of OA - which you say doesn't exist, so I probably am misremembering it. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think I actually remember it in context of "WoTC snuck it in as errata later..." so it probably really was just errata.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Were they shapechangers in OE? Yes but the text for playing Hengeyokei in OE was that they were shapechanging animals as a PC and as a monster not humanoids in OE. According to ECS the Magebred template could be applied.

Was this later updated? Yes but in every game somewhere a line is drawn by the players and the dm regarding what gaming source material is used. IMO in most games you don't see players bringing errata for each of their source books along with the source book particularly if the player or dm has a lot of source books.

There are well over 80 hard cover source books now for 3.5 way (Awful lot to bring to each game or for a dm to track).

As I recall a Dragon magazine changed them to a +0 ECL humanoid shapechangerl. I'm not saying anything doesn't exist just that the rules ned to be applied consistently in game and that includes all errata. It should be applied fairly and consistently not singling out a single source book. I would much rather play a Dragon magazine +0 ECL Hengeyokei without the Magebred template than a +1 ECL Hengeyokai with the Magebred template.

[The_Snark]

Castlemike- The Oriental Adventures book itself states that they are of the shapechanger type, is the thing, on page 11. That's completely different from the animal type. Whether you use the errata or update or whatever doesn't actually matter, because there never was a point at which they had the animal type, and type is what determines when you can apply templates.

As for using LA - templates, that's the DM's individual call, but I don't think I'd hand out eight stat points (plus other benefits) for free. The hobgoblin gets +1 LA for half that. Wizards apparently felt that since magebred only applies to animals, it wasn't really going to increase their power enough to merit a whole CR increase, but it's a power boost nevertheless, and giving it out to PCs without any sort of drawback is something that I'd personally avoid.

[Chronos]

Note also that level adjustment did not exist in 3.0. So if you use 3.0 material for templates or nonstandard races, you pretty much have to use updated versions or end up with broken abilities that don't cost anything.

[Zincorium]

Note also that level adjustment did not exist in 3.0. So if you use 3.0 material for templates or nonstandard races, you pretty much have to use updated versions or end up with broken abilities that don't cost anything.

Er, that's a flat falsehood.

Look at any 3.0 book containing monsters and at least one of them should have an '- characters' entry towards the end. That lists the ECL of the monster, ECL minus hit dice is your level adjustment. LA + hit dice equals ECL.

3.5 changed the formatting to help clear things up, but they certainly didn't introduce the concept.

[Chronos]

Look at any 3.0 book containing monsters and at least one of them should have an '- characters' entry towards the end. That lists the ECL of the monster, ECL minus hit dice is your level adjustment. LA + hit dice equals ECL.OK, Monster Manual 1. I'm looking at the entry for elves, since I know that drow ought to have a level adjustment. The "Elf characters" section at the end says, in its entirety, "An elf's favored class is wizard. Elf leaders are usually wizards.". The section on drow has a couple of paragraphs giving the fluff description, then lists typical ability scores for males and females, then has a description of their poisoned arrows, then the drow traits, which consist of spell resistance, bonus to Will saves, SLAs, darkvision, and light blindness. No mention at all of ECL.

OK, maybe they just forgot it there, since it was a sub-entry in a main race without LA. Hobgoblins, then:
Hobgoblin characters
A hobgoblin's favored class is fighter, and hobgoblin leaders tend to be fighters or fighter/rogues. Hobgoblin cleric worship Maglubiyet and can choose two of the following domains: Evil, Destruction, and Trickery. Most hobgoblin spellcasters, however, are adepts (see page 37 in the Dungeon Master's Guide). Hobgoblin adepts favor spells that deal damage.

The Planetouched entry just says "Aasimar characters: An aasimar's favored class is paladin", and "Tiefling characters: A tiefling's favored class is rogue".

The templates don't have it, either. For instance, half-celestial:
Half-celestial characters
Half-celestial humanoids often have a character class, favoring bards, clerics, fighters, and paladins. Nonhumanoids are also sometimes clerics or paladins. Half-celestial clerics serve good deities such as Ehlonna, Heironeous, Kord, or Pelor.Could you give me a specific example of a creature which has an ECL listed?

[The_Snark]

Well, there's the hengeyokei we were referring to earlier; Oriental Adventures, had a +1 level adjustment. For that matter, Savage Species itself was more or less 3.0. The Fiend Folio has several creatures and templates with level adjustment; ethergaunts, maugs, half-fey, et cetera. The Monster Manual 2 has a few, such as scorpionfolk and ixitxachitl. Boy, is that a mouthful.

Makes me suspect that it was a concept introduced after 3.0 initially came out but also before things were changed to 3.5, especially if the original Monster Manual didn't have any mention of it.

[Chronos]

Makes me suspect that it was a concept introduced after 3.0 initially came out but also before things were changed to 3.5, especially if the original Monster Manual didn't have any mention of it.OK, that might be... I only have MM I. Still, if it was only introduced partway through 3.0, they you'll have to be careful with any given source to see whether it was before or after it was introduced. No listed LA does not necessarily mean no LA.

[Illiterate Scribe]

3.0, but Arctic, Deep, Desert, Wild. (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Index-Templates.pdf)