So, Belkar vs. Celia: Whose politics do you agree with?

[Charles Phipps]

So, in the eternal Green State vs. Yellow State divide of D&D politics. I was curious where exactly you sympathized. Do you sympathize with....

A. The Role-Play Party: Where the Air-Elemental player character can't apparently wrap her mind around the Genre and seems unable to grasp that it's a WAR TIME scenario where people SHOULD die in a game based around a WAR game.

B. The Slasher Party: Belkar's belief that anything outside of the party is fundamentally just EXP on the hoof and that there's absolutely no reason to trust an NPC. Honestly, gnomes are kinda sucky anyway.

[Kish]

Objection.

You insult them both by calling Celia a player character and saying characters have to be outside of the party for Belkar to recognize them as walking XP.

[Charles Phipps]

You're absolutely correct.

I fully support Belkar killing Celia for EXP because she's not a PC race and that's what she's therefore.

But yes, I hate really both types of players at my table. I can't stand the Belkar types whose "playing in character" means there's absolutely no reason the PCs would associate with them and I equally hate those people who'd accuse hating fictional races as endemic of RL racism.

I mean, who WOULDN'T slit the throat of every Hobgoblin child if he had the chance?

[Cubey]

Both of them acted in stupid ways (at least in #539) that I'd find extremely annoying when playing a tabletop RPG. And that's the point - when Haley considers strangling them both, I bet many readers would feel the same way. I do for sure.

[Prowl]

The gnome was obviously working for the enemy, Belkar just did what was prudent. Notice the gnome made no attempt to turn around or change direction when he heard Azure City was overrun by the hobgoblins...

[Quorothorn]

Both of them acted in stupid ways (at least in #539) that I'd find extremely annoying when playing a tabletop RPG. And that's the point - when Haley considers strangling them both, I bet many readers would feel the same way. I do for sure.

Those are basically my own thoughts on my matter. I agree with neither Celia nor Belkar here (though Belkar's reasoning was funnier).

[Flickerdart]

Belkar is absolutely right. Everything not in the party is for the benefit of the players, either by giving them EXP or aid such as NPCs can provide. Interchanging these two elements allows PCs to shape their plot.

[factotum]

I wouldn't vote for either. I don't agree that killing people makes heroes less heroic somehow, but on the other hand the killing has to be justified. Celia would have you never kill anything whatsoever, no matter how good the reason, while Belkar kills anything that moves (and quite a few things that don't) without rhyme or reason.

[B9anders]

I wouldn't vote for either. I don't agree that killing people makes heroes less heroic somehow, but on the other hand the killing has to be justified. Celia would have you never kill anything whatsoever, no matter how good the reason, while Belkar kills anything that moves (and quite a few things that don't) without rhyme or reason.


I don't think it has been established that Celia is an absolute pacifist. Simply that she doesn't kill if there are alternative options.

[Rad]

I'm all for Celia in this one: there was no need to kill the hobgoblin at the guard post and that made sure that the patrol will not remember that cart and will probably have to file a report on the casualty. All that is not a good thing and it could have been saved if Belkar just went moving slowly and acting spooky. He didn't really like that plan so he went on doing what he liked all the same just because.
Do you know who else did that?
Miko :miko:

[SPoD]

Belkar and Celia have the exact same politics: That every sentient life is inherently of equal value. They simply disagree on what that value actually IS. It's Haley who's the one in disagreement here, ranking some lives above others based on race.

[Sylian]

I agree with Celia on this, Belkar really didn't need to kill the hobgoblin. As far as I know, goblins and hobgoblins in the Order of the Stick world aren't always evil, and can thus be redeemed. Therefore they should refrain from killing them if possible. You'd agree with that in the real world, wouldn't you? I could agree that the hobgoblins was a little threat, however the gnome really wasn't. Killing the gnome was definately evil.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

A. The Role-Play Party: Where the Air-Elemental player character can't apparently wrap her mind around the Genre and seems unable to grasp that it's a WAR TIME scenario where people SHOULD die in a game based around a WAR game.

When did the strip get PCs? Aren't the characters kind of meant to exist in their own reality (granted a 4th wall breaking, game referencing one) like most fictional characters?

That said with the people I game with her option for getting past the Hobgoblins would have been more popular - the more RP option to the down and out Hack/slash one - not that there isn't plenty of time for Hack/slash, just that it doesn't need to be each and every time. I find it refreshing.


Belkar and Celia have the exact same politics: That every sentient life is inherently of equal value. They simply disagree on what that value actually IS. It's Haley who's the one in disagreement here, ranking some lives above others based on race.

Haley is ranking some lives above others based on race? I don't know, it looks more to me like she thinks on the necessity - they are at war, killing the enemy is better then them killing you, unless killing them is bad, as Celia pointed out it would be in this case. I imagine her behaviour would be similar even if the enemy was human (like Tsukio) or Drow or whatever.

[LtNOWIS]

Most people in real life, and probably in-universe would draw a big distinction between killing an enemy soldier in wartime and killing a random passerby.

For me, killing the hobgoblin, or any of the hogoblins under Redcloak, would've been justified even if hobgoblins weren't evil. It's not because they're evil, it's because they're fighting on the other side of the war. But the fact that they are an evil race and fighting under an evil lich does justify it further.

[Bluelantern]

Belkar and Celia have the exact same politics: That every sentient life is inherently of equal value. They simply disagree on what that value actually IS. It's Haley who's the one in disagreement here, ranking some lives above others based on race.

Indeed, Belkar believes in equality: Everyone equally inferior to him.

[Quorothorn]

Belkar and Celia have the exact same politics: That every sentient life is inherently of equal value. They simply disagree on what that value actually IS. It's Haley who's the one in disagreement here, ranking some lives above others based on race.

*Sigh.* Haley's not a speciest here, get that through your skull. The hobgoblin Belkar stabbed was an enemy combatant seconds from revealing the entire deception (which, JFTR, would have resulted in the death of every single hobgoblin in the camp by mass-stabbing), whereas the gnome was a traveling merchant, an innocent as far as we know.

[Morty]

I would agree with neither, but I'm more on Celia's side here, as I loathe PCs solving every problem via slaugher, "because they are only [insert XP-fodder race here]" or "they are only NPCs".

[NikkTheTrick]

Belkar and Celia have the exact same politics: That every sentient life is inherently of equal value. They simply disagree on what that value actually IS. It's Haley who's the one in disagreement here, ranking some lives above others based on race.
No. She ranked them based on whether they are enemy combatants or not. Back in DOurkan's dungeon, Haley was OK with goblin kids who did not (as far as she knew up to the moment she was captured) intend to hurt them. Haley would have killed Tsushiko or any other human/elf/dwarf/gnome/halfling combatant in Xykon's force.

A la guerre comme a la guerre (War is war).

[David Argall]

Saying Haley is not racist is going a little far [The whole game has been pretty racist from day 1 and the chief reason that has declined is just to give the players a harder time so they can't just kill the evil orcs, but have to wait for the orcs to attack.] She is going to start judging anybody she meets by race. She doesn't stop there, but she approached the gnome peacefully because it was a gnome. Replace the gnome with just about any of the evil humanoid races and Haley's actions [wisely] would have been a good deal more cautious.

[Charles Phipps]

Saying Haley is not racist is going a little far [The whole game has been pretty racist from day 1 and the chief reason that has declined is just to give the players a harder time so they can't just kill the evil orcs, but have to wait for the orcs to attack.] She is going to start judging anybody she meets by race. She doesn't stop there, but she approached the gnome peacefully because it was a gnome. Replace the gnome with just about any of the evil humanoid races and Haley's actions [wisely] would have been a good deal more cautious.

Racism is a loaded term because we don't want to get into arguments where it's proof positive that races are innately evil in D&D. I prefer a term like xenophobe or specist.

[Quorothorn]

Racism is a loaded term because we don't want to get into arguments where it's proof positive that races are innately evil in D&D. I prefer a term like xenophobe or specist.

Well, as I suppose goblins are a distinct species from humans, "speciest" would be the correct term, as Redcloak pointed out. Though it presents a problem with all those "half-"s running around...

[brilliantlight]

I'm all for Celia in this one: there was no need to kill the hobgoblin at the guard post and that made sure that the patrol will not remember that cart and will probably have to file a report on the casualty. All that is not a good thing and it could have been saved if Belkar just went moving slowly and acting spooky. He didn't really like that plan so he went on doing what he liked all the same just because.
Do you know who else did that?
Miko :miko:


The hobgob was an enemy COMBATANT. Haley is right Belker killing the guard meant one less the resistance would have to take out later. He is a guard and is by definition a combatant in the war. If it was a hobgoblin child that would be another matter.

[brilliantlight]

Racism is a loaded term because we don't want to get into arguments where it's proof positive that races are innately evil in D&D. I prefer a term like xenophobe or specist.

I agree. Is it really evil to kill beings based on race when there REALLY ARE races that are 99%+ evil such as orcs, goblins, drow and grey dwarves? There are no such races in RL and that is why racism is evil in RL. If we lived in a universe in which there are races that are 99%+ murderous or enslaving evil then we would be stupid not kill such on sight but we are not.

[Kish]

I agree. Is it really evil to kill beings based on race when there REALLY ARE races that are 99%+ evil such as orcs, goblins, drow and grey dwarves?
*holds up a Monster Manual*

Your percentages are a little off.

I'm not getting into the rest of it. But your percentages for all four of those races are off.

[silvadel]

Dragons -- color coded for your convenience....

[brilliantlight]

*holds up a Monster Manual*

Your percentages are a little off.

I'm not getting into the rest of it. But your percentages for all four of those races are off.

They vary from the rest of their race mainly on the chaos/law part of their alignment not on the good/evil. The vast majority of those four races are evil.

[Demented]

It's not really racist. Neither Haley or Belkar killed these goblins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html).
They don't kill goblins because of their race; they kill goblins because of their alignment.

It is just more fun to say they do it because of the goblins' race.

[Weiser_Cain]

In character?
Kill everything, then my companions and then cast epic spell to create my own race.

Reality?
All DnD PC's are sociopaths at best.

[Gamerlord]

in my opion i hate them both like i hate almost evry single charerter in evry single webcomic i read....yet i still read them...

[Winterwind]

While I agree with Haley that the situation might be one of these cases where killing is actually justified (the hobgoblin was an invader on an innocent city), if I had to choose between Belkar and Celia, I'd definitely go with Celia. There is nothing about RPGs I hate more than players who fail to realize NPCs are sentient, living beings as well, just like you and me, and do not act accordingly (and instead choose a manner of behaviour which is amoral and psychopathic, wantonly slaughtering others because they lack a player behind them).

No matter what, I am not going to side with Belkar on this matter.

[Jahkaivah]

I'm all for Celia in this one: there was no need to kill the hobgoblin at the guard post and that made sure that the patrol will not remember that cart and will probably have to file a report on the casualty. All that is not a good thing and it could have been saved if Belkar just went moving slowly and acting spooky. He didn't really like that plan so he went on doing what he liked all the same just because.

Seriously doubt "acting spooky" would have worked, the hobgoblin was about to blow their cover, which would have changed the situation from "might have been an enemy" casualty report to "definatly an enemy" report.

That said who doesn't solve problems the way they like? Every character has strengths, every character plays towards them.

The gnome was a completely different situation, obviously. Heck they could have just asked him for the donkey. But unless you happen to have a deep anti-gnome conspiracy you can't justify his action there.

As for Celia's "your racist" argument, race has little to do with it, there are god guys and bad guys. Since those hobgoblins were working for Xykon, they are bad guys

[Kish]

They vary from the rest of their race mainly on the chaos/law part of their alignment not on the good/evil. The vast majority of those four races are evil.
Now you're making assertions you don't have the authority to make. You didn't write the Monster Manual, nor are you quoting anything a D&D writer did write. It's fine for you to prefer black-and-white "PCs good/monsters bad" morality, but please don't try to impose it on everyone.

[brilliantlight]

Now you're making assertions you don't have the authority to make. You didn't write the Monster Manual, nor are you quoting anything a D&D writer did write. It's fine for you to prefer black-and-white "PCs good/monsters bad" morality, but please don't try to impose it on everyone.

Look at their background, drow traditionaly sacrafice one of their sons to the Spider Queen, in orc and hobgoblin tribes they kill those among them that look weak etc. With that kind of background you either become evil or you are most likely to end up dead.

[Morty]

Look at their background, drow traditionaly sacrafice one of their sons to the Spider Queen, in orc and hobgoblin tribes they kill those among them that look weak etc. With that kind of background you either become evil or you are most likely to end up dead.

Yeah, yeah, great. But the rules say clearly: Usually X means that above 50% members of the race are of X alignment, and Often means that less than 40-50% are of X alignment. You can interpret it however you like, but your interpretation is in no way official.

[brilliantlight]

Yeah, yeah, great. But the rules say clearly: Usually X means that above 50% members of the race are of X alignment, and Often means that less than 40-50% are of X alignment. You can interpret it however you like, but your interpretation is in no way official.

Perhaps, but it makes the most sense.

[Kish]

Perhaps, but it makes the most sense.
Well, now, there are two questions here. First: If they were real, would the life of every orc, goblin, duergar and drow lead to them being "99%+ murderous or enslaving evil," such that "we would be stupid not kill such on sight," as you claimed? Second: Bearing in mind that they are not real but exist in a game, how likely is it that the Monster Manual's "Often," "Usually," and "Always" tags really are effectively meaningless since a creature which is "Often Chaotic Evil" is meant to be something to shoot on sight anyway?

I don't grant the first. But I think the second is flat-out absurd. The D&D writers didn't use all that printer ink just because they're in love with the sound of their own typing.