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Zim
2008-03-14, 11:08 PM
Just in case my droid scout gets blasted to bits, I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on how to build a buttkicker of a lightsaber fighter. Is Jedi really the best way to go? Is Soldier? Does anyone have any suggestions on a level by level progression that works well? What about Jensaarai armour attunement and soldier armour talents? Are lightsaber talents or weapon specialist talents the way to go? What about force sensitivity and force training?

Just wondering what your thoughts were.

Caewil
2008-03-15, 03:57 AM
The build depends on what role you intend to play in the party. A tank/defender will have certain talents and feats while a DPS type character will have others. An all rounder will have a combination of the two. Generally, avoid multiple attacks, since they rely on you staying still. Two very good feats are Acrobatic Strike and Powerful charge - any melee build should have them, they provide a stacking +5 and +4 bonus to attacks. If you can make a DC 15 acrobatics check fairly frequently, you can use your move action to tumble though an enemy's square and move at least two squares back. Then charge as a standard action for a +9 total bonus with powerful charge and extra damage. Ouch. You can also channel the attack bonus into things like power attack and rapidstrike.

Defensive Jedi (lightsaber)

Human (optional) Jedi 6/Scoundrel 2/Jedi Knight 3-5

Skills: Acrobatics (for acrobatic strike), Use the Force, Perception

Talents:
Lightsaber Combat (Jedi) - Block, Deflect, Redirect Shot
Fortune (Scoundrel) - Fool's Luck
Lightsaber Forms (Jedi Knight) - Soresu and Shii-Cho or Shien

Necessary Feats: Skill Focus (UtF), Acrobatic Strike, Force Training


The goal here is to be the ultimate defensive jedi when your lightsaber is drawn.

Your primary stat is charisma, to get your UtF check as high as possible, since this is what powers your Block and Deflect talents. Wisdom should follow so you have more force powers to work with, taking advantage of the high UtF skill modifier. Constitution is important but strength can be made up for with multiple uses of Battlestrike. Dextreity is nice for redirecting shots, but your main defense will be Block/Deflect attempts and not your reflex defense. In fact, a lower reflex defense may even be a benefit since it will give you more opportunities to make UtF checks, increasing the chances of a natural 20 and refreshing your force power suite.

How it works: Start in Jedi as a human, if possible. Use your human feat to get an extra force training feat. (if non-human, take force training once) Then grab talents in the following order: Deflect, Block, Redirect Shot. Make sure you get Skill focus (UtF) as soon as possible. Take your seventh level in scoundrel for Fool's Luck. Fool's Luck is pretty cheesy so if your DM disallows it, grab a level of Soldier or Jedi so your BaB qualifies for Jedi Knight sooner. If it is allowed, you will be able to use force points to boost your UtF skill by 5 for whole encounters.

Grab Soresu as your first talent in Jedi Knight. For your second level, grab force point recovery as your force technique. Now you can increase you UtF skill mod by 5 every encounter FOR FREE! Your next talent is up to you. Shien for more offense, Shii-Cho to defend against multiple attacks. Grab both if you want to.

Either way, at level 10, assuming a charisma score of 18, you have an average UtF check of

5 (trained) + 5 (focused) +5 (fool's luck) + 5 (level) + 10 (roll) + 4 (cha) = 34

With an opportunity to re-roll if you fail the check. Your only weakness is autofire, which can easily be overcome with a one level dip into scout for evasion. Also, make sure your initiative is high since if any enemy attacks before you get your lightsaber ignited you won't be able to use block or deflect.

Zim
2008-03-15, 03:10 PM
Thanks for the input. I think a soldier/jedi is probably the way to go. Are the armour talents worth taking, or should they be ignored?

Now, any thoughts on a ninja jedi? :smallwink:

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-15, 03:18 PM
You need block/deflect. Not necessarily as a Jedi, but as a lightsaber combat focused Jedi. I'd also recommend taking a Battle Strike or two.

Mando Knight
2008-03-15, 11:01 PM
Thanks for the input. I think a soldier/jedi is probably the way to go. Are the armour talents worth taking, or should they be ignored?

Now, any thoughts on a ninja jedi? :smallwink:

The armor talents are only useful if you're going to be wearing a suit of armor... which may not be a fantastic idea if you have dramatically boosted your DEX. A single-class Jedi can pick up Weapon Specialization in lightsabers, and will have Force Sensitivity right off the bat so you can use Force Training for Battlestrike, and allow the easiest access to the block/deflect talents.

The Jedi Knight PrC is one of the most useful classes you can take if you're a saber duelist. It offers access to the saber styles, the Armor specialization tree, and the Duelist tree.

Deflect allows you to shrug off enemy autofire, and Elusive Target allows you to completely ignore ranged attacks. Together, you can defeat any blaster-based attack, and if you have taken any defense boosting feats, you'll be nigh unto unhittable.

The best offense comes from an impossible defense! When the opponent has an effective 0% chance to hit and you have a DR-ignoring weapon, you're pretty unstoppable.

Talya
2008-03-16, 08:25 AM
Armor is excellent if your dexterity isn't very high, but uses feats/talents to be effective. But then again, so does making use of a very high dexterity in to-hit/damage.


BTW, a bunch of nenheroic goons can take down a jedi without problem. Your biggest weakness as a jedi is the grenade, against which you have no defense. The fact that nobody in the star wars movies used a grenade EVER should point out how rare they'd be in star wars, but a DM in a game i'm playing got fed up with defensive specced jedi so started using them to prove a point.

(To be fair, the only class with a defense against grenades is the Scout.)

Starbuck_II
2008-03-16, 08:34 AM
Armor is excellent if your dexterity isn't very high, but uses feats/talents to be effective. But then again, so does making use of a very high dexterity in to-hit/damage.


BTW, a bunch of nenheroic goons can take down a jedi without problem. Your biggest weakness as a jedi is the grenade, against which you have no defense. The fact that nobody in the star wars movies used a grenade EVER should point out how rare they'd be in star wars, but a DM in a game i'm playing got fed up with defensive specced jedi so started using them to prove a point.

(To be fair, the only class with a defense against grenades is the Scout.)

So one level Scout for Evasion?
Plus, auto-fire can't be deflected. Negate Energy would help if not a slug pisiol/rifle.
I currently have a Scout/Scoundrel who is dual weilding. Haven't been victim of a grenade yet, but evasion is nice.

What Stormtrooper doesn't autofire?!

Talya
2008-03-16, 08:46 AM
So one level Scout for Evasion?

Problem with that is it costs you an extra level before getting into Jedi Knight (which has a BAB requirement.)


Plus, auto-fire can't be deflected. Negate Energy would help if not a slug pisiol/rifle.

Autofire can be deflected, but success still does half-damage. The advantage here is if you get your RD up high enough, then they'll only hit your square for half damage. Then you can still deflect, for half damage again (which I think completely negates it rather than doing 1/4 damage.)

Talya
2008-03-16, 09:42 AM
Oh, I forgot, other things a Jedi lightsaber duellist should have once they hit Knight:

Soresu. For the block/deflect Jedi, this is a nobrainer. Shii-cho is nice, too, but is really only useful in those "One Jedi vs. an Army" scenarios.

Force Point Recovery. Best Force Technique the Knight class gets, and you can take it multiple times.

Juyo. (Prereq: Weapon Focus/Specialization.) Once you hit Jedi Knight, wait for your first instance of "Force Point Recovery." Then you can use Juyo in every battle at least once.


My personal favorite build idea is a Miraluka (think Jerek from Dark Forces: Jedi Knight, or Visas Marr from KotOR2) Soldier/Jedi.

Miraluka were statted out by the writer of Saga edition in a forum somewhere, but I remember their abilities: +2 int, -2 dex. Can reroll initiative, but must keep the second roll if they do. All Miraluka are blind. Bonus Feat: Force Sensitivity. Bonus Force Technique (!): Improved Sense Surroundings. (Makes Sense Surroundings an "Always On" Free action. Sense surroundings negates concealment. Since blindness causes all creatures to have concealment against you, it also negates blindness...simulating the Miralukan "force sight.")

So start with soldier. Go with armor talents (since Miraluka have a dexterity penalty anyway.) Multiclass into Jedi Knight. You only get one class feat when you multiclass, but Jedi only get two (Force Sensitive and Lightsaber Proficiency), and you're already force sensitive, so that's a really easy choice. The Armor is easily the equivalent of having 20 dexterity and getting +6 to constitution if you use the heavy stuff. You can also take the talents needed to ensure it doesn't restrict your mobility. Tech Specialist is an essential feat for the armored jedi, letting them improve both their armor and their lightsaber.

Closet_Skeleton
2008-03-16, 09:47 AM
If you're going to get Ataru, don't bother with armour talents. Armour is very good at low levels but you need to waste an awful lot of talents at high levels to keep it competative.

If you're taking Soldier levels, Devastating Attack and Stunning Strike are the best talents for a lightsaber Jedi.

Powerful Charge and Acrobatic Strike are as has been said, some of the best feats. Mighty Swing isn't as bad as it looks if you combine it with Powerful Charge every round but like in D&D Power Attack is the best way to take advantage of large attack boosts.

Taking a level in Scoundrel for Fool's Luck is just annoying cheese.

Block and Deflect are very good at low levels with Skill Focus, but I would happily throw them away for other talents. Against Auto-fire Deflect is basically Evasion with a 5% chance of failure. Redirect Shot is basically a free dead nonheroic.

DR 10 can be a broken talent at times since only heroic characters can do enough damage to penetrate it.

Juyo, Vapaad and Tripple Crit are all awesome.

Battle Strike and Surge are the best force powers for a melee Jedi.

Wookies and Gungans are good races for combat characters. Zabrak is a waste and humans shouldn't be overlooked. You'll want Ataru and weapon finesse if you're a Gungan. I personally hate using races for power gaming and think you should pick the race you want and try to make it work anyway.

That's Saga Edition's main problem, everything is broken at levels 1-5.


Your only weakness is autofire, which can easily be overcome with a one level dip into scout for evasion.

Grenades are a bigger weakness, although Scout covers that.

However your main weakness is abilities that can't be blocked or deflected. Force Lightning can easily hit you but can be reduced partially with deflect. The big threats of this type are from things that ignore reflex defence altogether. Force Grip will hurt a lot, Force Thrust is situational but the only defence against it is Rebuke, Force Stun will weaken you enough for normal attacks to start hitting and Force Disarm can take your lightsaber away if the user rolls really high. Your Rebuke will be as good as your deflect, but run out quickly. Then there are non-force powers like Adept Negotiator, Poison gas, Inspire Fear and others which are always going to be threatening.

Mando Knight
2008-03-16, 06:59 PM
Plus, auto-fire can't be deflected.

Auto-fire can be deflected by the Deflect talent for the same effect as Evasion, but it can't be redirected. It's in the Core Rulebook under the talent's description, look it up.

Rebuke will be useful for telling enemy Force-mage types to sit down and shut up while the big boys play, and Negate Energy will be useful for eliminating shots when your Deflect modifier is shot.

Talya
2008-03-16, 08:04 PM
Auto-fire can be deflected

It's very easy to ninja someone if they give you a 9 hour window.

WrathOfLife
2008-03-16, 11:06 PM
Eeeeh?

Well, I'd probably go in as a Wookie Soldier....

The trick to any power gaming is to find the fastest way to drop a person no?

Now with so many hitpoints, attacking hitpoints takes to long and lets face it, its boring.

So we attack the condition track. :smallamused:

Through Soldier we pick up Melee Smash and Stunning strike. "If attack roll exceeds the targets damage threshold" are the key words.

Attack roll. We can get that up rather easy can't we? but lets also take Devastating attack (lightsaber) as well, so we can lower our DC some.

So we're now 5 level. So we might as well dip into jedi and pick up block. Of course while we're on the matter of jedi, I have to stress there really is only one choices for you. Dark rage. Can't go wrong with +6 to hit.

Of course you should be spending all your feats on either getting more attacks or increasing your to hit.

Now we can look at PRC's. Jedi knight and Elite trooper are the most important. Take Elite trooper first, for Greater Devastating Attack. Lowerinng our DC to hit his condition track. Sadly the feat requirments for Elite trooper are fairly high and will not doubt slow you from getting more attacks.

Next, we jump stright over to jedi knight (don't bother taking many levels in Elite trooper, its just not worth it) where we take Greater Weapon Focus (lightsabers) before grabbing as many Multiattack prof's as we can.

Remember the more attacks we can get in per round, the faster we push the enemy down the condition track. And each time we push them down, it becomes harder for them to fight back.

This build makes for a deadly lightsaber fighter who can drop MOST enemies in 2 to 3 rounds. Of course, he has a strong lean towards the darkside. But as you can see, the darkside is powerful.

Zim
2008-03-16, 11:26 PM
Since I'm planning on more of a heroic character than a darksider, I think dark rage is out, but I get the point about the condition track. That does seem the mechanic to beat.

Wookie notsomuch. I might want to play a really good fighter, but I just can't do the noises right. :smallwink: That leaves me with human for the extra feat. Or maybe another droid...

WrathOfLife
2008-03-16, 11:40 PM
Human would be better. You can always use battle strike to rase your attack abit more. Or another race with a stat that will increase your to hit (str or dex if you're finessing). Droids are out due to the limtation on the force, and the whole jedi knights needing the force. Course you could work around it, but as far as I remember Jedi knight has the only mutliattack prof for a melee weapon.

Mando Knight
2008-03-17, 01:01 AM
It's very easy to ninja someone if they give you a 9 hour window.

I completely failed that spot check... and I thought I read through the thread, too!:smallfrown:

If you don't feel like being a Jedi per se and just want a kickass lightsaber wielder, you could go all General Grievous... but you'll need an external source of lightsabers if you don't have the Force Sensitivity feat, since that's required for crafting your own...

For armor users, it isn't necessary to have the Tech Specialist feat, but it does help in case none of your party members picked up the feat themselves.

Actually, Tech Specialist would be useful regardless, since you can beef up your 'saber a bit...

If you don't go into Jedi Knight, then the Elite Trooper class would be useful, since it gives DR and d12 hit dice, as well as a +4 Fortitude Defense modifier...