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View Full Version : Am I missing something about arcane necromancy?



Randel
2008-03-15, 02:46 AM
After looking through the SRD and Spell Compendium, I haven't seen any way for a wizard to permanently command undead other than the skeletons and zombies produced by Animate Dead.

Create Undead and Create Greater Undead specifically say that the undead created are not automatically under the control of the maker.

Command Undead only affects one undead and lasts 24/hours per level. Control Undead only works for a minute... and in Spell Compendium the Rebuke spells just mess with living people. Even rebuking Breath which is supposed to act like Rebuke just does the cowering part of the effect.

I'm just wondering if there my generalist wizard's dream of commanding an army of shadows and wraiths... and keeping them all in a single Bag of Holding could ever work. It seems divine casters get all the truly destructive spells (Control Winds, Create Greater Undead... heck clerics get Planeshift as a 5th level spell while Wizards get it as a 7th. Are 90% of all Portable Holes made by priests or something?)

Anyway, I hope I just missed something. Getting Animate Dead two levels later than clerics is a pain and I'd hate to have to burn a level on cleric just so I can rebuke undead to control the undead I create. :smallfrown:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-15, 02:51 AM
I'd hate to have to burn a level on cleric just so I can rebuke undead to control the undead I create. :smallfrown:

You wouldn't be able to "burn a level" to rebuke your undead. You need twice the Rebuking level of the undead's HD. So even with everything I can think of to boost your Rebuking level, you'd still end up only able to rebuke 3-5HD creatures.

Fruan
2008-03-15, 03:34 AM
Command Undead isn't as bad as you might think - Throw an extend on it and we're talking months of duration.

nargbop
2008-03-15, 11:41 AM
Think of it this way : you're a bad, bad guy. You don't really care about your creations, you want only to do unspeakable things to the people in X Village. Thusly! Cast Animate Dead as many times as possible and leave the things to their own devices.
Only the creatures which stay around you need to be controlled. At your castle, or following you around. For those, use an Extended spell.

EvilElitest
2008-03-15, 11:49 AM
Think of it this way : you're a bad, bad guy. You don't really care about your creations, you want only to do unspeakable things to the people in X Village. Thusly! Cast Animate Dead as many times as possible and leave the things to their own devices.
Only the creatures which stay around you need to be controlled. At your castle, or following you around. For those, use an Extended spell.

Through it would suck if the skeletons wandered in the wrong direction


"Sir, our castle is under seige"
"By who sergent"
"The undead you realized sir, the've wandered here after all"
"Bugger"
from
EE

GammaPaladin
2008-03-15, 01:16 PM
Three words.

Animate. Dread. Warrior.

It's in Unapproachable East, but I believe it's been reprinted (Lost Empires of Faerun? Someone help me out, I don't collect Forgotten Realms books).

Anyway, it allows you to raise a person from the dead, and they retain their class levels and skills (But are limited in intelligence, you have to give them simple commands like you do with zombies). They're automatically under your control, and there's no limit to how many you can control at once.

There's no limit to how many times you can cast it per day even.

The only downside is that it costs 250xp per HD of the raised creature.

But you can always have it spellstiched on a couple of your zombies and use them to cast the spell ;)

Gig_Complex
2008-03-15, 01:24 PM
Yeah to be a good Necromancer you almost always have to go the Divine route with one of the better PrCs.

UglyPanda
2008-03-15, 01:36 PM
Well, there's always the Wall of Uttercold method when using lots of skeletons at once (Wall of fire + Energy substitution(cold) + Lord of the Uttercold). Skeletons are immune to cold and are healed by negative energy. Other than that, arcane necromancers typically rely on one, really powerful undead creature and casting a lot of debuffs (Enervation).

Eikre
2008-03-15, 11:29 PM
Divine necromancers who set out to build armies are much better than the Arcane ones with the same goals, but it's not because they've got Rebuke.

Rebuke: Control requires the cleric in question to have twice as many effective turning HD as the Undead he's trying to control. This is in a game where all the Undead you give a damn about have twice as many HD as you.

This is for two reasons. One, Turn Resistance, which everyone has. And two, the Undead Hitdie, which comes with no CON, skills, or class features, and half BAB. Anything undead that plans on being a creditable threat has many more HD than their prospective enemies, because the DM, of course, can easily tack on the HD, and necromancers casting Animate Dead can usually make as many HD worth of undead in one go as they and all their friends can kill in a day.

Arcane Casters don't get Desecrate, or any of the things that Divine casters get just for showing up, like armor or a lack of ASF, but they do get Command Undead, which you comically scoff at. It's a level 2 spell, which gives you control over any unintelligent undead you want with no save. For days. 40 HD monstrosity that the DM intends to chase you into a cave too small for it to get into? Whip out a scroll, and make it your bitch. Tell it to walk into a cave full of fire magi. It won't care! The priest who made it can't do anything besides cast Hide From Undead and hit you in the meantime.

Basically, looking at the Divine casters and yearning for their method of Undead stealing is adorable. It's cute.

dyslexicfaser
2008-03-15, 11:42 PM
Not entirely true, Eikre. Intelligent undead won't follow suicidal orders unless you 'convince' them.

If you want the undead army approach, it's hard to beat Dread Necromancer. They can control more HD of undead than anything else in the game, and they get Rebuke, which if you pump it via items, actually becomes useful.

EDITed because I didn't know what I was talking about at first.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-16, 02:10 AM
Dread Warrior darnit!

Are my posts invisible?

<.<

>.>

Seriously, that spell is a godsend for Arcane Necromancers.

I mean, heck... As a level 11 Dread Necro (Or just wizard even), you can animate a level 10 fighter and he'll actually be a level 10 fighter still, with all his feats (At least the ones he still qualifies for). Animate a Wizard, and technically, going by RAW, he can still cast any spell he has enough int left to cast. Kill some Deathbound domain clerics and raise them. NOW who can have the biggest undead army? Huh? Huh?

That's right, the Arcane caster with his pet undead clerics.

The_Snark
2008-03-16, 02:45 AM
It may be because that's a potentially very broken spell from an obscure setting-specific splatbook. Things like Shivering Touch and that spell tend to be ignored when discussing how to play an actual character.

As for undead armies, what you are looking for is the chain of command. First, you acquire control of... eh, let's say a wight. Clerics and dread necromancers are better for this, because wights are intelligent and Command Undead is only about as effective as Charm Person on them.

Proceed to have it kill commoners, building up your army. Each wight that spawns will be under the control of the one that created it, which means even if a wight can only control a limited number of spawn, you still have a potentially unlimited number of them. Create and control several initial wights, so that you don't lose the entire army if just one of them dies.

Of course, now you've given yourself a weakness that's almost as bad as a self-destruct switch, or at best several such weaknesses, but you're a necromancer; villainous stereotypes come with the territory.

Talic
2008-03-16, 04:14 AM
The biggest problem with a Chain of command like this is what happens when a link breaks.

Assume I control 4 wights. Each of them control 4, and so on, for 8 progressions.

Progressions:

Level 1: 4 wights
Level 2: 16 wights
Level 3: 64 Wights
Level 4: 256 Wights
Level 5: 1,024 Wights
Level 6: 4,096 Wights
Level 7: 16,384 Wights
Level 8: 65,536 Wights

Total army: 87,380 wights. Not bad.

Now, you can lose any level 8 progression, no problem. Each level 7 you lose, actually costs you 5, because you lose control of 4. Now, this can result in minor inconvenience. Now, let's say you lose a Level 4 Wight. You lose 257 wights. Still liveable, though that'll really disrupt any organized attack you were planning with your "army".

What if a level 2 were to go? 4,096 of his minions go with it. That's 1/16th of your army. It's salvagable, but it'll prevent almost any tactical maneuvering.

If a level 1 Wight goes, you lose 16,384 Wights, 25% of your army, to chaos. You need them nearby, to command your minions, but they're an incredibly weak link in the chain.


Go with Scarred Lands, Shadow Touch spell. Level 4 spell, lets you strength drain a bit better than a shadow, and gives you shadows under your control permanently when you kill things. The spell is designed to give you a small core of followers, just shield yourself from them (Crypt Lord PrC from same setting?), and go have fun as an elite strike force, rather than an army.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-16, 06:17 AM
It may be because that's a potentially very broken spell from an obscure setting-specific splatbook. Things like Shivering Touch and that spell tend to be ignored when discussing how to play an actual character.

As for undead armies, what you are looking for is the chain of command. First, you acquire control of... eh, let's say a wight. Clerics and dread necromancers are better for this, because wights are intelligent and Command Undead is only about as effective as Charm Person on them.

Proceed to have it kill commoners, building up your army. Each wight that spawns will be under the control of the one that created it, which means even if a wight can only control a limited number of spawn, you still have a potentially unlimited number of them. Create and control several initial wights, so that you don't lose the entire army if just one of them dies.

Of course, now you've given yourself a weakness that's almost as bad as a self-destruct switch, or at best several such weaknesses, but you're a necromancer; villainous stereotypes come with the territory.
Meh, I don't really see it as a broken spell... If anything the usual arcane necro spells for animation/controlling undead are too weak. The xp cost balances it out nicely, and even if you have it spellstitched on a minion (Or your familiar) you can only use it once per day, because it's a level 6 spell. And the cost of actually getting it spellstitched in the first place is rather mind boggling, to be honest.

Until you can afford that, you can really only use it to create a few elite minions (Seriously, 250xp per hit die can hurt... One level 10 minion costs you 2500 experience, so it's not like you're going to be doing it willy nilly), and at the point where you can afford to have a level 6 spellstitching done on multiple minions, you're a high enough level that this really isn't gamebreaking at all, compared to what other classes (Or just wizards with other specs) can do.

Plus, if you have it spellstitched on minions, the raised undead are under their control, which is, as noted in your post, problematic. So, the best you can do without having to deal with an XP cost or CoC problems is to have it spellstitched on yourself (Assuming you've gone Necropolitan. You have gone Necropolitan haven't you? ;) ) and that will not be cheap at all, and you'll only be able to use it once a day.

So, really... I don't see how it's broken.

Granted, in a year of work you could have 365 high level minions with class levels... but... With a year of work like that any wizard spec could do something gamebreaking, so it's not worth worrying about.

Besides, he'd have to actually find a high level classed NPC every single day, and actually kill them.

Not so easy really ;)

Swiftblu
2008-03-16, 11:41 AM
It's not that it's necessarily broken, simply obscure. If you're grabbing a spell from a campaign setting, it should be from the Magic of X book. The farther you remove yourself from core DnD, the more likely you are to have broken, broken mechanics.

Wraithy
2008-03-16, 12:43 PM
Its not arcane, and its certainly not an army, but undead leadership (Libris Mortisbadlatinus) looks a good option.

Talya
2008-03-16, 01:17 PM
what you are looking for is the chain of command.

You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here.

sikyon
2008-03-16, 02:07 PM
It's not that it's necessarily broken, simply obscure. If you're grabbing a spell from a campaign setting, it should be from the Magic of X book. The farther you remove yourself from core DnD, the more likely you are to have broken, broken mechanics.

Core has 3 out of the top 5 most powerful classes in the game. Core = balanced is one of the biggest fallacies out there.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-16, 02:28 PM
It's not that it's necessarily broken, simply obscure. If you're grabbing a spell from a campaign setting, it should be from the Magic of X book. The farther you remove yourself from core DnD, the more likely you are to have broken, broken mechanics.

That's not true. The PHB contains more broken mechanics than any other book, right up to free infinite wishes.

nargbop
2008-03-16, 03:10 PM
Ask your DM if you can research Permanent Crown of the Grave, from the PHB II. It grants a continuous Command Undead effect, and a serious bonus to rebuke/turn if you discharge it. Even better than a researched spell, take Craft Wondrous Item and imbue an actual crown with this spell, plus some other buff.

Jacob Orlove
2008-03-16, 03:15 PM
The Complete Necromancer's Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=599129&page=1&pp=30) is old, but still full of good advice for the necromantically inclined.

If you want better necromancy rules than the ones that actually exist, check out the Tome of Necromancy (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=34248).

holywhippet
2008-03-16, 03:40 PM
Not entirely true, Eikre. Intelligent undead won't follow suicidal orders unless you 'convince' them.

He specifically said unintelligent undead when talking about that spell. That being said, a DM would be pretty neglectful to make a 40 HD undead that wasn't intelligent. If a party is expecting undead they'd load up on spells targetting undead. An unintelligent undead has no save against hide from undead which would let you stroll right past it or plant a bundle of alchemists fire at it's feet then detonate them.

The_Snark
2008-03-16, 04:27 PM
Meh, I don't really see it as a broken spell... If anything the usual arcane necro spells for animation/controlling undead are too weak. The xp cost balances it out nicely, and even if you have it spellstitched on a minion (Or your familiar) you can only use it once per day, because it's a level 6 spell. And the cost of actually getting it spellstitched in the first place is rather mind boggling, to be honest.

Until you can afford that, you can really only use it to create a few elite minions (Seriously, 250xp per hit die can hurt... One level 10 minion costs you 2500 experience, so it's not like you're going to be doing it willy nilly), and at the point where you can afford to have a level 6 spellstitching done on multiple minions, you're a high enough level that this really isn't gamebreaking at all, compared to what other classes (Or just wizards with other specs) can do.

Plus, if you have it spellstitched on minions, the raised undead are under their control, which is, as noted in your post, problematic. So, the best you can do without having to deal with an XP cost or CoC problems is to have it spellstitched on yourself (Assuming you've gone Necropolitan. You have gone Necropolitan haven't you? ;) ) and that will not be cheap at all, and you'll only be able to use it once a day.

So, really... I don't see how it's broken.

Granted, in a year of work you could have 365 high level minions with class levels... but... With a year of work like that any wizard spec could do something gamebreaking, so it's not worth worrying about.

Besides, he'd have to actually find a high level classed NPC every single day, and actually kill them.

Not so easy really ;)

Giving essentially free Leadership (already a broken feat) in exchange for a bit of XP is broken, yeah. Especially when there's no limit on how many you can command and the XP/material components can eventually be bypassed, allowing you to raise pretty much any NPC you kill (within limits). Note that you can revive your minions via Revive Undead, so they really are like cohorts. Speaking as a DM, there is no way I'd want to handle that spell being used in game. If a player wants an intelligent undead sidekick, they can get Undead Leadership or take that necromancer variant that gives you a skeleton minion.

You're saying arcane necromancy is too weak, but I don't really think I agree. For one thing, battles where the minions do all the fighting are not much fun for the other PCs. Arcane necromancy can do plenty; it's just not the best in the raising-armies department. That is not a game-friendly department, and the only reason people think it ought to be included is because it's traditional necromancy stuff.

Really, I think there's a reason that there's no standard way for a PC to control armies of undead. There shouldn't be a purely by-the-rules way to get an army, not without the DM deciding there needs to be one. In most campaigns, the DM isn't planning on the PCs leading armies. If he is, he can invent a way for the party necromancer to control his zombified hordes.

It would be like having a set Diplomacy DC for "get appointed general of an army" or "be named heir to the throne". Problematic, and while the DM can just outlaw it, it's easier not to include it in the first place and let DMs who want their PCs to have armies of undead houserule it in.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-16, 04:46 PM
What it comes down to is that necromancy was never supposed to be a PC option. The Animate Dead spells are in there, but DMs were never supposed to build their BBEG necromancers using the spells in the book, they were just supposed to have armies of the undead at their beck and call.

Weiser_Cain
2008-03-16, 04:51 PM
Through it would suck if the skeletons wandered in the wrong direction


"Sir, our castle is under seige"
"By who sergent"
"The undead you realized sir, the've wandered here after all"
"Bugger"
from
EE

Easy fix. Simply put all your free undead in roller skates (double knots for those crafty mummies) and build your castle up a hill.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-16, 05:18 PM
What it comes down to is that necromancy was never supposed to be a PC option. The Animate Dead spells are in there, but DMs were never supposed to build their BBEG necromancers using the spells in the book, they were just supposed to have armies of the undead at their beck and call.
That's a problem though. If it's not meant to be a player option then it shouldn't be there, full stop. If they're going to implement it they should do it properly.

And seriously, how can you not know that somewhere, some player is going to want to prove that necromancers can be good?

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-16, 05:26 PM
That's a problem though. If it's not meant to be a player option then it shouldn't be there, full stop. If they're going to implement it they should do it properly.

And seriously, how can you not know that somewhere, some player is going to want to prove that necromancers can be good?

They can be a necromancer, as long as they don't intend to be the kind of necromancer who has a legion of undead minions, because D&D 3E characters simply don't use legions of minions. It's perfectly okay to be a "necromancer" who uses negative energy spells and stuff. The system doesn't doesn't support undead armies.

Rutee
2008-03-16, 06:03 PM
That's a problem though. If it's not meant to be a player option then it shouldn't be there, full stop. If they're going to implement it they should do it properly.

And seriously, how can you not know that somewhere, some player is going to want to prove that necromancers can be good?

I don't think the point is that they're only for Evil. The reason, in short, is thus:



Really, I think there's a reason that there's no standard way for a PC to control armies of undead. There shouldn't be a purely by-the-rules way to get an army, not without the DM deciding there needs to be one. In most campaigns, the DM isn't planning on the PCs leading armies. If he is, he can invent a way for the party necromancer to control his zombified hordes.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-16, 06:13 PM
I disagree. There are already purely "by the rules" ways for any PC to gain at least a small army (Leadership, etc). And rules for creating undead hordes fall under the same protocol: If you don't want your PCs to have armies, don't allow them to play those characters/use those feats/spells.

The same way that you have to disallow Leadership if you don't want armies.

It's not rocket science.

Rutee
2008-03-16, 06:24 PM
I disagree. There are already purely "by the rules" ways for any PC to gain at least a small army (Leadership, etc). And rules for creating undead hordes fall under the same protocol: If you don't want your PCs to have armies, don't allow them to play those characters/use those feats/spells.

The same way that you have to disallow Leadership if you don't want armies.

It's not rocket science.

No, actually, Leadership says in the text that you consult with your DM first. Spells don't do that. I guess it makes about as much sense to force a spell to do so as a feat, so you've got a point. But that point is more about asymmetry then "The DM should ban this if he doesn't want it in the game".

At a guess, they wanted as few mechanics that fell under this "Consult with the GM first" tidbit, but..

The_Snark
2008-03-16, 06:31 PM
Leadership maxes out at a very small army, about 164 people (most of whom will be too low level to make a difference). Animate Dead also maxes out at a very small army, about 80 skeletons. (100 for clerics, who can control a few more through rebuking.) Both of those are incredibly problematic if the player insists on using eighty-odd low-level minions in fights, which is why followers are almost always left behind and necromancers usually use a few big undead rather than lots of little ones.

There should not be a purely by-the-rules way to get an army. Note that Leadership is located in the DMG, and notes that the DM should be specifically allowing it; players have to ask before taking it, which isn't the case for other feats.

Essentially, you're saying that it should be in the books and disallowable if the DM doesn't want it; we're saying that it shouldn't be in the books and made allowable if the DM does want it. Personally, I think it's much easier and less problematic to leave it out; when you include rules, there are going to be players who will want to use those rules regardless of the DM's wishes, and those rules would go unused or banned by the majority of DMs.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-16, 06:43 PM
Just like leadership does. But so what? It's better to have it there and not need it, than to need it and not have it. "The DM can make up some house rules" is never a good solution.

Besides, 164 level 1 NPCs are deadly as all heck if you give them all crossbows. Focus fire and natural 20s.

The_Snark
2008-03-16, 06:51 PM
I know they can be useful. They're also hell on the other players, and on the DM. You're kind of forced to average out their attacks, or spend half an hour every round determining the results of their actions.

And in this case, I think leaving it to the territory of a house rule is a much better option than including it and then arguing that DMs who don't want the players to be in charge of armies can always just houserule it out. The DM needs some sort of control over how the players can influence the world, and I don't think it's unreasonable that most DMs wouldn't want players accumulating an army just because they can. If the majority of DMs ban something or discourage its use, it probably ought not to have been put into the books.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-16, 08:04 PM
You just include it the same way as the Leadership feat. With the caveat that it requires express approval from the DM.

It's not that hard. And it's easier to say "No you can't do that" than to make up an entire set of spells and feats.

Rutee
2008-03-16, 08:07 PM
I think they just wanted as few mechanics in the books that said "Ask your GM for permission first" as possible. I love the idea of a minion horde, but DnD just doesn't have rules that make it really supported.

Yet. These Minion rules may give you much more hope...

Randel
2008-03-17, 01:28 AM
Thanks for all the advise guys. I've been looking through the links and I think I've gotten a better idea of what is out there.

Now for a cheesy build:

level 1 Human Cleric with the Deathbound domain (from spell compendium)

Feats are:
Fell Animate (from Libre Mortis)
Divine Metamagic (from complete Divine)

Stats would need at least a +1 to charisma


With four uses of Rebuke Undead, I could use them to spontaneously add the Fell animate feature to a damaging spell at first level. Thus whoever is killed by the spell turns into a zombie under my control. (Limits to the number of zombies are just like if created by animate dead) Since they cost no GP to create, I can probably make my minions during the course of regular fighting. Though that would burn almost all my uses for rebuke undead for a day.

Somehow I'm imagining a character who's backstory involves worshiping a god of undead and gained the ability to infuse the divine power into spells to make zombies. Since the individuals must be killed by the spell it would most likely be used when they are dying or really low on hit points... so the necromancer might help his allies fight some bandits and then search the fallen enemies, find one who is dying and then zap him with an inflict light wounds or Chill of the Grave with his metamagic use. If there are multiple fallen foes he might even stabilize them and save them to zombify later.

So basically it would amount to only one zombie a day, needing a living enemy who is low enough on hit points that I'm certain that the spell will kill them, and all the other limits to animate dead. I guess Death Knell would be the 2nd level spell of choice for making undead in this fashion.


The Deathbound Domain increases the number of zombies I can control at one time and gives a nice damage-dealing 1st level spell so I can get to work at as soon as possible.

The other domain might be the healing domain with the Domain Caster varient from PBH2. So I can use cure spells to heal allies while still rebuking undead.

Though a close second would be the Air Domain... just to get Control Winds as a class spell. Control Winds + Divine Metamagic'd Fell Animate = Hurricane that turns those killed by it into zombies.

====
Anyway, I suspect that this build would fit an NPC antagonist more than a PC. An evil cleric who has live sacrifices brought to a desecrated alter and kills them right then and there, using the power of their dark god to turn them into zombies. And only being able to do it like once or twice a day.

Plus being able to cure wounds with healing magic... probably posing as a prominent healer who cures many people and occasionally selects a few dying ones to sacrifice. Then telling their family that they had a contagious disease and the body had to be cremated.
====

Anything wrong with this general build or suggestions?

Chronicled
2008-03-17, 01:36 AM
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here.

*Salutes fellow browncoat*

Talic
2008-03-17, 02:08 AM
Thanks for all the advise guys. I've been looking through the links and I think I've gotten a better idea of what is out there.

Now for a cheesy build:

level 1 Human Cleric with the Deathbound domain (from spell compendium)

Feats are:
Fell Animate (from Libre Mortis)
Divine Metamagic (from complete Divine)

Stats would need at least a +1 to charisma


With four uses of Rebuke Undead, I could use them to spontaneously add the Fell animate feature to a damaging spell at first level. Thus whoever is killed by the spell turns into a zombie under my control. (Limits to the number of zombies are just like if created by animate dead) Since they cost no GP to create, I can probably make my minions during the course of regular fighting. Though that would burn almost all my uses for rebuke undead for a day.

Somehow I'm imagining a character who's backstory involves worshiping a god of undead and gained the ability to infuse the divine power into spells to make zombies. Since the individuals must be killed by the spell it would most likely be used when they are dying or really low on hit points... so the necromancer might help his allies fight some bandits and then search the fallen enemies, find one who is dying and then zap him with an inflict light wounds or Chill of the Grave with his metamagic use. If there are multiple fallen foes he might even stabilize them and save them to zombify later.

So basically it would amount to only one zombie a day, needing a living enemy who is low enough on hit points that I'm certain that the spell will kill them, and all the other limits to animate dead. I guess Death Knell would be the 2nd level spell of choice for making undead in this fashion.


The Deathbound Domain increases the number of zombies I can control at one time and gives a nice damage-dealing 1st level spell so I can get to work at as soon as possible.

The other domain might be the healing domain with the Domain Caster varient from PBH2. So I can use cure spells to heal allies while still rebuking undead.

Though a close second would be the Air Domain... just to get Control Winds as a class spell. Control Winds + Divine Metamagic'd Fell Animate = Hurricane that turns those killed by it into zombies.

====
Anyway, I suspect that this build would fit an NPC antagonist more than a PC. An evil cleric who has live sacrifices brought to a desecrated alter and kills them right then and there, using the power of their dark god to turn them into zombies. And only being able to do it like once or twice a day.

Plus being able to cure wounds with healing magic... probably posing as a prominent healer who cures many people and occasionally selects a few dying ones to sacrifice. Then telling their family that they had a contagious disease and the body had to be cremated.
====

Anything wrong with this general build or suggestions?

Inflict Light wounds, at 1d8+1, will give you most level 1 commoners. If you are of the mindset to Flaw it out, get sudden silent and sudden maximize. Cast it in your room, walk to the nearby farm, touch someone out for a late night stroll, and boom, 9 damage, free zombie. Escort to your zombie pen.

Not sure if RotD has a domain with Power Word: Pain as a level 1, but that'll definately get sure kills at level 1. On Horses.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-17, 02:12 AM
Dread Necros can take fell animate too. Just sayin ;)

hamishspence
2008-03-17, 05:20 AM
Draconomicon has Zombie dragons and Skeletal dragons (prefer Zombie dragons for fly and breath) with no HD limit and decent punch (and spell resistance) It states in description that they are created using animate dead.

If your DM allows Draconomicon, use it to the full, as one of the few ways you can get high punch zombies.

While clerics can do it better (desecrate for 4 times character level HD) even a double CL HD zombie dragon is nothing to be sniffed at. 40HD red dragon can be animated at 20th level as a CR 14 zombie: pretty nasty. and you can have 2 of them.

There is also the possiblity of Polymorph Any Object used on the dead body to make it into a more dangerous one, like a prismatic or force dragon from Epic, but this is considered cheesy and some DMs will disallow it.

Randel
2008-03-18, 12:31 AM
I don't have the heroes of horror book to take Dread Necro, though from what I'm hearing then I could give myself unlimited healing by taking a feat and using an at will negative energy touch attack.

Weird idea combined with my previous one:

Cleric with the Rune domain
Feats:
Fell Animate
Divine Metamagic
Corpsecrafter
Retributive Destruction

at 7th level I can cast Explosive runes, which are then divine metamagic'd with Fell animate. Then since I have Retributive Destruction, any undead I create explode with a 10 foot radius burst of negative energy when destroyed.

Every day make an explosive rune and then toss it somewhere, if someone reads it then the rune explodes. If it kills them they become a zombie under my control, if someone destroys the zombie then it explodes.

Or... maybe be a wizard and find a way to make a permanent wall of fire with Fell Animate metamagik'd into it. Just shove people through it and make zombies.

Though if I could tweak Fell Animate to make skeletons then a permanent Wall of Fire cold substituted Lord of Uttercold Fell Animate thing could make a huge skeleton factory/healing device.

Meh, still sounds like something for a villain to do.

Draz74
2008-03-18, 12:37 AM
That's not true. The PHB contains more broken mechanics than any other book, right up to free infinite wishes.

Now now, let's not exaggerate. You need the MM too, not just the PHB, for Infinite Wish Gate-Cheese. :smallwink:

And to get it at lower levels, you need to add DMG material (i.e. Candle of Invocation) too.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-18, 01:47 AM
I don't have the heroes of horror book to take Dread Necro, though from what I'm hearing then I could give myself unlimited healing by taking a feat and using an at will negative energy touch attack.
Yes. Yes you can.

It's not a LOT of healing, but it's certainly nice. And you can easily heal up between combats. AND heal your undead.

Though, I would honestly advise taking the LA+1 Necropolitan template instead of Tomb Tainted Soul. That way you can heal yourself with your negative energy AND you get a d12 hit die. ;)

Farmer42
2008-03-18, 01:50 AM
It actually isn't a LA+1, it's a lost level. Which is better, since you make up the XP rather quickly since you gain it as a your class level, as opposed to an ECL one higher.

Ponce
2008-03-18, 09:22 AM
Evil cleric with the magic domain.

Eternal Wand of Command Undead.

Eternal wands can be used twice per day, every day by anyone who can cast arcane spells, regardless of what level of spell they can cast or if the spell is on their list. This includes our friend the cleric (and any arcane caster).

At minimum caster level, the wand can be used to continually control up to 6 unintelligent undead (3 day duration * 2 uses per day).

Total cost: 4k and change. Not bad.

Eran of Arcadia
2008-03-18, 03:01 PM
*Salutes fellow browncoat*

There's no need to get all . . . bendy.