So, should they dump Belkar/stop him?

[Charles Phipps]

Thought I'd hold an informal poll here.

[Paragon Badger]

Should.

But can't.

[doliest]

Shouldn't, should let him get away with more.

I could see haley pre-reistance agreeing with belkar here.

[Yendor]

Have Haley tell him she knows the activation word for the Mark of Justice. Maybe she's bluffing, and maybe she isn't.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Well, they can't dump him, because of all the trouble he will no doubt cause. But Haley has to do something about him, or else there will be a lot more deaths just waiting to happen.

I think the next few strips will have Haley being forced to keep Belkar in line. If not, then Belkar, might as well be on his own. :smalleek:

Belkar is testing the limits. I think the MOJ will kick in real soon.

P.S. This is the same Belkar who was serious about joining Team Evil. He is NOT loyal to the OOTS.

[doliest]

Haley really can't keep the belkster in line, mainly because he is a primary melee character with haley in range, & I'm willing to bet he has favored enemy(human), and as for celie she's a slyph with no combat expirence, she would be screwed.

[tenguro]

For somethings yes. Like the killing of the gnome, I personally don't like gnomes, but Belkar still shouldn't have killed him. Although it was hilarious afterwards, He should face consquences, I like Belkar (previously stated in another topic), but I dont condone his actions.

[Kish]

They should stop him, yes. "Should," from a moral standpoint, that is. They won't, of course.

[brilliantlight]

The practical thing for them to do is slit Belker's throat when he sleeps but they won't do that.

[Oberon]

Ethically, yes.

In terms of the comic as a whole, no. That would remove the conflict in these scenes and the only evil character balancing out the order.

[ssjKammak]

I would definatley say do neither, just let belkar be himself, they won't/can't dump him and stopping him just wouldn't be funny.

[Wych]

Haley really can't keep the belkster in line, mainly because he is a primary melee character with haley in range, & I'm willing to bet he has favored enemy(human), and as for celie she's a slyph with no combat expirence, she would be screwed.

Maybe individually Hayley or Celia would be screwed, but what if Celia picked up Haley to keep her out of melee range? Belkar is good at throwing his daggers but surely at range Haley would have the advantage?

[Prowl]

Belkar serves a useful purpose as the party's alignment dump stat.

[Flickerdart]

^

Also, Belkar is one of the most powerful beings that are allied with the Order through the virtue of being a PC. Throwing away a powerful ally is a Chaotic Stupid thing to do.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I could see haley pre-reistance agreeing with belkar here.

I don't know, I can't see Haley at any point in the strip being happy offing some poor trader just to steal his donkey. She may be a rogue, but she is more the heart of gold type, not the "I see the people of the world as walking piggybanks, just waiting to be cracked open type".

As to the question? Yes, they should stop him... but in terms of the story not yet. Besides they aren't in a position at the moment to do so. She certainly isn't going to turn him lose on the world by dumping him (besides which he'd still follow because of the Roy/MoJ think) and they definitly aren't going to kill him.

[ssjKammak]

^

Also, Belkar is one of the most powerful beings that are allied with the Order through the virtue of being a PC. Throwing away a powerful ally is a Chaotic Stupid thing to do.

Actually rather than chaotic stupid i would say lawful stupid since there motivation would be a moral/ethical choice.

[doliest]

I don't know, I can't see Haley at any point in the strip being happy offing some poor trader just to steal his donkey. She may be a rogue, but she is more the heart of gold type, not the "I see the people of the world as walking piggybanks, just waiting to be cracked open type".

As to the question? Yes, they should stop him... but in terms of the story not yet. Besides they aren't in a position at the moment to do so. She certainly isn't going to turn him lose on the world by dumping him (besides which he'd still follow because of the Roy/MoJ think) and they definitly aren't going to kill him.


1 sentance-'You wouldn't believe the rates on slaves'

[ShellBullet]

Actually rather than chaotic stupid i would say lawful stupid since there motivation would be a moral/ethical choice.

I would say Good stupid...

Good character generally try to follow, what they considere good ethical..

[Dr. Cthulwho]

1 sentance-'You wouldn't believe the rates on slaves'

I guess, though even that kind of thinking is still a bit different to "he has something we may find useful, ergo we kill him and take it."

Haley, in earlier times, finding someway of getting the donkey through nonlethal means and thinking it was ok I could see, Haley agreeing with a murderous plan to get the donkey not so much.

[ssjKammak]

come on haley was considering the benefits of selling a woman into slavery, clearly we have a girl whose morals/ethics are for sale.

[doliest]

I guess, though even that kind of thinking is still a bit different to "he has something we may find useful, ergo we kill him and take it."

Haley, in earlier times, finding someway of getting the donkey through nonlethal means and thinking it was ok I could see, Haley agreeing with a murderous plan to get the donkey not so much.

I think for haley, she would have considered a plan that ended in 'her' not commiting voilence, but would have gone with taking things from people Belkar kill, using the 'It's useless to them now' logic.

[David Argall]

They have very little ability to dump belkar. He is going to stay close to Roy no matter what they think. They probably can't win a fight against him and the risks of trying are quite high.

Now they should certainly try to stop him. Their ability to do so is also rather limited, but they need to at least try. And they might succeed. Belkar has been moderately biddable at times and they have hope of at least limiting his crimes.

[DanielX]

come on haley was considering the benefits of selling a woman into slavery, clearly we have a girl whose morals/ethics are for sale.

That woman:
- was part of a group of bandits that had captured most of the party;
- said bandits were about to execute her, as well as :elan:, :vaarsuvius:, and :belkar:.
- had earlier beaten the tar out of Haley in a one-on-one fight;
- was caught making out with Elan, who Haley already had feelings for at the time;
- tried to kill her and her friends using her native sorcerer powers.

She was clearly a nasty customer, who had already done much to hurt Haley and her friends, and whom Haley had a personal grudge against. Given that the team was seriously considering killing her outright, selling her into slavery would not have been an especially unusual alternative.

Whereas this gnome has done nothing to her or anyone, as far as anyone is aware. He's just a gnome who apparently doesn't listen to the Cockatoo News Network or the Badger Broadcasting Corporation :smalltongue:

I'd say that, ethically, its time for Belkar to die. He is, essentially, a psychotic serial killer who is too dangerous to keep alive, about as evil as Xykon even if his ambitions are far more mundane. Now, whether that can happen or not... Celia/Haley better be fast if they try flying away, Belkar has his Ring of Jumping +20 after all...

And really, from what I've heard the CE afterlife would suit Belkar pretty well...

[brilliantlight]

Ethically, yes.

In terms of the comic as a whole, no. That would remove the conflict in these scenes and the only evil character balancing out the order.

I meant ethically, Belker is too important to the comic to suddenly not be apart of it. As a character he is funny but I wouldn't want him around me!

[P/C Phoenix]

Definitely. And I think they should do it by making sure that he's in a position where he can't counter-attack them later on.

Belkar is unreliable, has openly stated that he's willing to switch sides the moment someone who could remove the MoJ comes along (in fact, the only reason he hasn't yet is that he didn't think of it until Haley mentioned it), and is willing to attack people just for existing.

The only thing holding him back, previously, has been 1) Roy, and 2) the MoJ. Roy's dead and the MoJ isn't in effect because they're not in range of even a village - never mind somewhere with a jail that has any hope of keeping Belkar contained (and even Roy said that he doubts any jail could do so for any real length of time).

So now? Now Haley should be working on a plan to get rid of Belkar permanently. Yes, it will end up removing the Evil/Good conflict that he brings to the Order of the Stick - but, as far as I'm concerned, that conflict is only interesting as long as it isn't actively interfering with the rest of the Order's ability to get things done in a reasonably effective manner ('reasonable' being 'about as effective as they normally are').

Besides, who said that they can't recruit a new Evil-aligned member, after they get rid of Belkar? I don't think anyone has.
And I doubt anyone in the Order would say that it's his Evil alignment specifically that they have problems with - it's his Chaotic alignment that causes most of the problems.
And, personally, I think he overplays it; everyone but Roy (and possibly Durkon), after all, is also Chaotic (although they're Chaotic Good, admittedly) - but they recognize that there are times when it's a bad idea to go through with a desired plan of action, no matter how tempting that action would be.

Belkar is unable or unwilling to exercise any level of self-control over himself, unless not doing so will get him killed (and even then, it's a toss-up as to whether he'll go through it anyways). This could be a result of his Int score (which is apparently low enough that even Owl's Wisdom can create a massive personality change), but I'm not so sure - after all, he can't be much dimmer than Elan...and while Elan is pretty stupid at times, he doesn't go with impulse just because he can.

But whatever the cause of Belkar's lack of impulse control? It's reached the point where he's actively endangering the Order - after all, if Haley runs into trouble with the law because of Belkar, it'll prevent her from getting back in contact with Durkon and V...which will keep them from being able to get Roy resurrected.
Add in the fact that he's proven time and again that he's willing to ignore the needs of his team-mates, and his recent proof that he has no loyalty to the Order, and I'm not seeing much reason at all to keep Belkar around any longer than it'd take to get rid of him.

[Chronos]

everyone but Roy (and possibly Durkon), after all, is also ChaoticPossibly Durkon? He's far more lawful than Roy. And Vaarsuvius's alignment isn't known exactly, but e's likely true neutral.

Back on topic, the time has certainly come for Haley to smack down Belkar, hard. She needs to make it perfectly clear that after the next unjustified killing, there's going to be a very justified killing. Then, if Belkar does kill unnecessarily again, she needs to kill him, by slitting his throat in his sleep if that's what it takes.


Also, Belkar is one of the most powerful beings that are allied with the Order through the virtue of being a PC. Throwing away a powerful ally is a Chaotic Stupid thing to do.If Belkar keeps this behaviour up, he's not an ally to the heroes. He's just one more enemy.

[Flickerdart]

I would say Good stupid...

Good character generally try to follow, what they considere good ethical..
"Good" goes on the end. So it would be "Stupid Good".

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I think for haley, she would have considered a plan that ended in 'her' not commiting voilence, but would have gone with taking things from people Belkar kill, using the 'It's useless to them now' logic.

Perhaps, though I always saw her more as an "ends don't justify the means" type pre and post resistance. Sure if she was thinking along the lines of needing a donkey (the ends) she would think of a way to aquire one, but like Roy or Durkon wouldn't go along with a Belkar plan that she knew was basically "kill random passerby and take his donkey" (the means).

But since no one is ever sure of what Belkar is going to do it is hard to object to his plans, so she might very well make use of the produce of his unanticpated slaying, but even pre-resistance I don't see her being happy when it requires what, for all intents and purposes is the death of an innocent.

[brilliantlight]

That woman:
- was part of a group of bandits that had captured most of the party;
- said bandits were about to execute her, as well as :elan:, :vaarsuvius:, and :belkar:.
- had earlier beaten the tar out of Haley in a one-on-one fight;
- was caught making out with Elan, who Haley already had feelings for at the time;
- tried to kill her and her friends using her native sorcerer powers.

She was clearly a nasty customer, who had already done much to hurt Haley and her friends, and whom Haley had a personal grudge against. Given that the team was seriously considering killing her outright, selling her into slavery would not have been an especially unusual alternative.

Whereas this gnome has done nothing to her or anyone, as far as anyone is aware. He's just a gnome who apparently doesn't listen to the Cockatoo News Network or the Badger Broadcasting Corporation :smalltongue:

I'd say that, ethically, its time for Belkar to die. He is, essentially, a psychotic serial killer who is too dangerous to keep alive, about as evil as Xykon even if his ambitions are far more mundane. Now, whether that can happen or not... Celia/Haley better be fast if they try flying away, Belkar has his Ring of Jumping +20 after all...

And really, from what I've heard the CE afterlife would suit Belkar pretty well...


I think it was a moment of weakness as she backed down the moment Roy glared at her.

[FoE]

Boy, it's like you guys never saw Belkar do something evil before. Oh, because the guy he murdered didn't have fangs and orange skin, now his actions are wrong?

Of course, there wouldn't be any debate at all if Belkar was hot. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants)

[slayerx]

Well they can't just "dump" Belkar... he's gotta stay within a mile of roy's corpse and as such he is gonna follow them no matter where they go... only way to "dump him" would be to kill him; and that could get dangerous... though i guess they could always get him in his sleep...

gotta wonder... how would Celia feel about killing Belkar in his sleep... ya really gotta wonder; he may be a little monster, but she was up in arms about one hobgoblin and they are evil aligned, the ones that Azure city is at war against, have likely killed plenty of people himself, are currently forcing humans into slavery, and would not think twice about killing her.

[Quorothorn]

come on haley was considering the benefits of selling a woman into slavery, clearly we have a girl whose morals/ethics are for sale.

The "woman" you refer to happened to be an evil sorceress who had personally offended Haley and attempted to execute the Order.


Anyway, Haley obviously needs to do something about this, but her options are somewhat limited: she can't take Belkar in a fight (even with Celia's help), killing him in his sleep is actually a more difficult proposition than I think people are assuming, and they can't just dump him because a. he'd follow them due to carrying Roy's body and b. Belkar unattended = horrific rampage waiting to happen; so the solution does not lie in a pure physical confrontation/escape IMO.

Haley's proven capable of influencing Belkar before (without violence or with minor violence), I'd say that's the correct route.

Edit:
Boy, it's like you guys never saw Belkar do something evil before. Oh, because the guy he murdered didn't have fangs and orange skin, now his actions are wrong?

Of course, there wouldn't be any debate at all if Belkar was hot. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants)

Belkar IS hot.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Boy, it's like you guys never saw Belkar do something evil before. Oh, because the guy he murdered didn't have fangs and orange skin, now his actions are wrong?

Of course, there wouldn't be any debate at all if Belkar was hot. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants)

While I like Belkar I realised he was an evil (yet likabe in character terms) little devil long ago. Pretty much when he killed those surrendering goblins waaay back.

And are you suggesting Belkar isn't hot? I'm shocked and dismayed. What does Sephiroth have the Belkar doesn't? Apart from shoes?

[Shadowcaller]

Boy, it's like you guys never saw Belkar do something evil before. Oh, because the guy he murdered didn't have fangs and orange skin, now his actions are wrong?

Of course, there wouldn't be any debate at all if Belkar was hot. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants)

That I must agree with, Belkar have done a lot of really evil things but as long as its funny or cool no one seems to care.
But now he seems to have crossed the *fan-line* and now everyone is hating him.
I never liked Belkar as a character, he is simply too evil for me, but I like the humor he brings to the comic.
I mean we would really miss all the pshyco-evil jokes if he is somehow removed from the comic by the plot.

Edit: wow FOE got quoted three times.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Anyway, Haley obviously needs to do something about this, but her options are somewhat limited: she can't take Belkar in a fight (even with Celia's help), killing him in his sleep is actually a more difficult proposition than I think people are assuming, and they can't just dump him because a. he'd follow them due to carrying Roy's body and b. Belkar unattended = horrific rampage waiting to happen; so the solution does not lie in a pure physical confrontation/escape IMO.

Haley's proven capable of influencing Belkar before (without violence or with minor violence), I'd say that's the correct route.

Actually, come to think of it, Haley might have one coercion card when it comes to Belkar: Roy's body.

She could always make it clear that Belkar doesn't behave himself she'll shove Roy's corpse in her bag of holding, which might trigger the MoJ. No one is sure whether it would do that or it wouldn't but up till now they've put up with all manner of inconvenience so they don't have to find out.

[FoE]

What does Sephiroth have the Belkar doesn't? Apart from shoes?

Sephiroth is a White-haired prettyboy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhiteHairedPrettyBoy) with tons of Wangst (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Wangst). He could conquer every fangirl in the world if he wanted. :smalltongue:

[LtNOWIS]

Boy, it's like you guys never saw Belkar do something evil before. Oh, because the guy he murdered didn't have fangs and orange skin, now his actions are wrong?


When did he ever murder a kobold or hobgoblin?

But yeah, I've known Belkar was too evil for some time now. Roy had a point about keeping him under control and using him for constructive purposes, especially with the Mark of Justice, but apparently that's shot to pieces now.

[FoE]

When did he ever murder a kobold or hobgoblin?

Uh, how about the previous strip, for instance? :smalltongue:

[Quorothorn]

Uh, how about the previous strip, for instance? :smalltongue:

That may or may not be "murder", depending on your definition. Given the circumstances (brink-of-ploy-exposure, etc), I suppose you could call it self-defense. Meh.


Anyway, Sephiroth really ain't that pretty IMO. White-haired, sure, but not pretty. Belkar, on the other hand, is stone-cold sexy and raging hot at the same time (and shoeless, and a god, to boot). There is no comparison between the two of them.

[FoE]

You don't think Celia could have talked her way out of that situation? She had been waved on by the second hobgoblin. All she needed to do was convince the first one.

But if you need something more concrete, here's a clear-cut example of Belkar murdering someone in cold blood, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html) except it involves goblins instead of hobgoblins.

[Quorothorn]

You don't think Celia could have talked her way out of that situation? She had been waved on by the second hobgoblin. All she needed to do was convince the first one.

TBH, no, I don't think she could have talked her way out of it. She was clearly flustered and the hobgoblin clearly suspicious. The jig was up unless something happened immediately, and Celia was not likely to produce the required "something": well, something happened, a cold-blooded killing that got the party free and clear.


But if you need something more concrete, here's a clear-cut example of Belkar murdering someone in cold blood, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html) except it involves goblins instead of hobgoblins.

The poster who brought up this point explicitly did not include goblins, just the ones with orange skin and fangs. I was just pointing out that Belkar killing the poor hobby last comic could be considered self-defense.

[brilliantlight]

You don't think Celia could have talked her way out of that situation? She had been waved on by the second hobgoblin. All she needed to do was convince the first one.

But if you need something more concrete, here's a clear-cut example of Belkar murdering someone in cold blood, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html) except it involves goblins instead of hobgoblins.

That's true and there was no real reason for him to kill them outside of XP. They surrendered and were no threat.

[Woof]

Well, Roy thinks he's got to stick with Belkar to prevent him from randomly murdering innocents, so I doubt he'd want Haley to ditch Belkar. Seeing as Haley and co. are escaping from a city overrun by goblins and nowhere near civilization at the moment, I think they should stick with Belkar for now. Me, I'd turn him over to the authorities as soon as they got to another city. Knowing Belkar's past, he's probably wanted for murder pretty much everywhere anyway :p.

[Animefunkmaster]

I agree with neither. I am only now starting to enjoy his actions in the party, especially if he keeps the gnome hat.

[Kioran]

They should have dumped/killed Belkar a long time ago, pretty much ever since they left the dungeon of Dorukan. He is a vile little pest that, while reasonable effective in a fight, has cost them more ressources and alienated more allies than he´d ever be worth. And he´s not even an interesting or nice person from an IC-perspective.
Why they haven´t killed him yet is beyond me. But then, I´m one of the people who believed Miko wasn´t too wrong about most things prior to destroying the gate......

[Sonar009]

his Int score (which is apparently low enough that even Owl's Wisdom can create a massive personality change)

Owl's wisdom boosts WISDOM. Who would have thought?:smalltongue:

[Quorothorn]

They should have dumped/killed Belkar a long time ago, pretty much ever since they left the dungeon of Dorukan. He is a vile little pest that, while reasonable effective in a fight, has cost them more ressources and alienated more allies than he´d ever be worth. And he´s not even an interesting or nice person from an IC-perspective.
Why they haven´t killed him yet is beyond me. But then, I´m one of the people who believed Miko wasn´t too wrong about most things prior to destroying the gate......

The Order doesn't get many allies, and Belkar didn't personally alienate any of them (neither Shojo nor Hinjo liked him, nor did Thanh, but his presence did not cause true problems in the working relationship between either of them and Roy; Miko was alienated by the entire party; the only one I can think of is Celia). Also, this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html) is more than just "reasonably effective in a fight".

Also, wait, does that last sentence mean you think that Miko slicing Shojo in half is somehow remotely justifiable?

[King of Nowhere]

And I doubt anyone in the Order would say that it's his Evil alignment specifically that they have problems with - it's his Chaotic alignment that causes most of the problems.
And, personally, I think he overplays it; everyone but Roy (and possibly Durkon), after all, is also Chaotic (although they're Chaotic Good, admittedly) - but they recognize that there are times when it's a bad idea to go through with a desired plan of action, no matter how tempting that action would be.

Belkar is unable or unwilling to exercise any level of self-control over himself, unless not doing so will get him killed (and even then, it's a toss-up as to whether he'll go through it anyways).

That's one of the differences between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil, that the good will discipline himself when other people might suffer from his action, while a CE thinks only for himself. From his poit of view, killing the gnome was not a bad idea, because it would turn out in a gain for him, and other people's suffering is not important.

Back on topic, Belkar could kill Celia in one round, and rogues are not optimized for 1 on 1 fight; Belkar has more attacs per round, higher attack bonus, more damage per hit, more hit points and about the same armor class, so he could kill Haley easily. Their only chance would be Celia taking Haley and flying out of Belkar's reach, or slitting his troath while he sleeps.
However, they're trying to save the world, and they need the help of Belkar to do it. It would be fool to risk the world to punish a murder. They should definitely kill him the day after they defeat Xykon once and for all (only, you know, for true this time)

[snoopy13a]

The practical thing for them to do is slit Belker's throat when he sleeps but they won't do that.

I agree with both of your points.

[Alex Warlorn]

Sadly, Roy has a point that if they let Belkar go he'll just wander the landscape killing anyone he comes across. He's the BlackMage of Order of the Stick.

However, what Belkar did was the straw IMHO that broke the camel's back (V: "Ouch!"). He's just proven he can't be trusted not to kill noncomatants, EVEN WHEN HE'S BEING WATCHED!!!

There has been much debate on weather the good book says "Do Not Kill" or "Do Not Murder" with both sides using what is useful for them at the time.

Haley needs to do what she does best. Steal his weapons. Given Belkar's mind numbingly powerful prejudice against Monks, it's doubtful the little guy know the first thing about hand to hand combat. While as a Rouge, Haley has been born and bred to fight dirty!

[Morgan Wick]

Boy, it's like you guys never saw Belkar do something evil before. Oh, because the guy he murdered didn't have fangs and orange skin, now his actions are wrong?

Well, it suggests Belkar will start killing every NPC they come across, and that arguably makes Haley and Celia accessories to a serial killer, almost certainly if they don't dump him and don't do something to stop the killing.

More importantly, the gnome wasn't a threat, so far as we know.

Oh, and I thought it was obvious LtNOWIS was being sarcastic. It's not as if Belkar's made a running gag out of killing kobolds, or killed I don't know how many hobgoblins in a strip while proclaiming himself a sexy shoeless god of war.

[Syraider]

this is cool xD

[slayerx]

Haley needs to do what she does best. Steal his weapons. Given Belkar's mind numbingly powerful prejudice against Monks, it's doubtful the little guy know the first thing about hand to hand combat. While as a Rouge, Haley has been born and bred to fight dirty!
Best not to underestimate an unarmed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0261.html) Belkar... taking his weapons away will slow him down, but i would never say it would stop him... wouldn't be surprised if he knew a thing or two about improvised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html) weapon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html) usage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html)... aswell as other alternate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) methods to kill

[Orzel]

Haley can't and wont drop Belkar for she needs help fighting. The only people capable of defeating him without huge amounts of luck are out to sea, dead, or evil. Plus with a good leader, Belkar can be controlled and is very useful. Haley sucks as a long term leader though.

[Alex Warlorn]

Next town they come to where Belkar can't hurt anyone.

Buy scroll of Baleful Polymorph.

Turn Belkar into a wolverine, his awful Will Save will take care of the rest, and train said wolverine to attack only certain people. There, all of Belkar's killing power, but much more managable!

[P/C Phoenix]

Possibly Durkon? He's far more lawful than Roy. And Vaarsuvius's alignment isn't known exactly, but e's likely true neutral..

I'll agree that Durkon is more law-abiding even than Roy - but we've never found out his alignment (or V's, I'll admit).

But: I suspect V is Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Good - I just have a hard time seeing the words "Yes, none of us has ever tampered with the fundamental natural order when bored. That would be wrong" being said by a True Neutral.

Additionally, since Thor is apparently a Lawful Good deity, Durkon is probably Lawful Good - but due to the "one degree of separation" thing (assuming we're sticking to what's in the game manuals, which isn't always true), Durkon could be Lawful Good; Lawful Neutral; Neutral Good; or Chaotic Good. The one thing we know is that he's not any of the Evil alignments, since Miko would've noticed this.


Owl's wisdom boosts WISDOM. Who would have thought? :smalltongue:

Eep, my bad! Both on forgetting that Owl's Wisdom boosts, er, Wisdom, and forgetting that it's Wisdom that's Belkar's dump-stat - not Intelligence.

[Yogi]

The problem with Belkar is that his character is in need of some serious development. Of the initial cast, Roy, Haley, and Elan's characters have developed the most, and Durkon has had a few character development strips to his own. Vaarsuvius has had very little development, but even that is more than the great big fat ZERO for Belkar.

So, you take a known sociopath, whose only character trait is that he's a sociopath, who cannot stop being a sociopath without re-writing the character, and don't give him any development. We don't need to guess what the result will be; it's Black Mage from 8-bit Theater. Hell, even BLACK MAGE has had more character development than Belkar. Belkar essentially is a one joke character, and there's only so many time you can tell that joke before it ceases to become funny. It happened with 8-Bit Theater, and the grumblings of the forum is the first sign that it's happening here. He'll still be good for a few more jokes, but he needs some serious character development soon.

That or he just dies, like the oracle implied.

[Alex Warlorn]

Haley buys or steals a Baleful polymorph scroll in the next town.
Turns Belkar into an animal, then at her next level up gains some ranks in Handle Animal, and TAME the wretched thing.

[King of Nowhere]

The problem with Belkar is that his character is in need of some serious development.

I think Belkar has developed more than it seems; the point is that he's not developing to became good, he developed to be more clever. In Origin he killed 15 people and was captured and sent to prison; when he joins the order he want to kill Haley and Elan in front of the rest of the party
at the beginning of the online comic he was just a mindless killer, while during Azure City's battle he saves Hinjo's life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) even if he hated Hinjo and wanted to kill him by himself. Old time Belkar would have just kill him mindless, while developed Belkar was more riflessive and was able to think in the long run.
In fact, his development makes him more dangerous than ever, since he is much more difficult to control him. When he killed the gnome, he *knew* that nothing bad was happening to him for that. He became capable of controlling himself when his evil deeds might damage him, and he aquired a certain planning capability.
Anyway, the Giant says in commentary from Dungeon Crawlin' Fools that when he created the characters, he crafted Belkar because he needed someone to carry dark humor. He is needed to the comic, so he will stay evil.
After all, Belkar is comedy platinum.