Dire

[Zocelot]

I was wondering if anyone has seen a template for dire animals that is approximate to the power difference between normal animals and their dire counterparts?

[sonofzeal]

The changes that "Dire" make range widely from creature to creature. I'd just apply this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases).

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I don't think there is such a template. And in fact, I believe that the rules for Dire animals is just advancing HD for the creature, and factoring in the size changes.

I know this is the case for Bat-Dire Bat.

The reason no such template probably exists is that Bigger stronger, just as stupid animals that hit harder and still have crappy saves/AC are not going to be much of a threat at higher levels. In fact, with the exception of the pouncing ones, Dire animals with more HD are less of a threat for their CR. This trend would continue until you have a 50HD Colossal Polar Bear that doesn't scare anyone at ECL 15, much less 20.

[RTGoodman]

I believe somewhere online there was a 3rd party PDF sourcebook thing on Dire Animals floating around that had stats for all sorts of crazy dire critters (I specifically remember a Dire Bighorn Sheep); the appendix to that had a relatively decent Dire Template that wasn't underpowered or anything.

Of course, I can't seem to find that PDF and apparently I didn't bookmark it or anything, so you're on your own.

[sonofzeal]

This trend would continue until you have a 50HD Colossal Polar Bear that doesn't scare anyone at ECL 15, much less 20.
Let's see... a 50HD Colossal Polar Bear.... that's +2 CR from size, +10.5 CR from HD, for a total of CR 16 (rounded down since everything in D&D always seems to).

So for CR 16, what do you get?

Con 19 + 1 stat point + 12 size bonus = 30 (+10). So that's an average of 525 hp.... let's use one of our 14 new feats and make that 575 hp with Improved Toughness.

Str 27 + 9 stat points + 24 size bonus = 60 (+25). With an attack bonus of +30 (15 BAB, 15 EAB) its pre-feat attack routine looks like 2 claws +51 melee (4d6+25) and bite +46 melee (6d6+25). If it hits with either claw it initiates a grapple with a +71 grapple mod.

Its saves are Fort +37, Ref +27, Will +22.

And you've got 13 feats left to twink this thing out.

It has AC 20, so let's pile all of those feats into Improved Natural Armor, for AC 33. Or alternatively, spend them on Roll With It from Savage Species for DR 24/- (the missing one is Toughness to qualify).

You're telling me that isn't scary?

[Collin152]

Let's see... a 50HD Colossal Polar Bear.... that's +2 CR from size, +10.5 CR from HD, for a total of CR 16 (rounded down since everything in D&D always seems to).

So for CR 16, what do you get?

Con 19 + 1 stat point + 12 size bonus = 30 (+10). So that's an average of 525 hp.... let's use one of our 14 new feats and make that 575 hp with Improved Toughness.

Str 27 + 9 stat points + 24 size bonus = 60 (+25). With an attack bonus of +30 (15 BAB, 15 EAB) its pre-feat attack routine looks like 2 claws +51 melee (4d6+25) and bite +46 melee (6d6+25). If it hits with either claw it initiates a grapple with a +71 grapple mod.

Its saves are Fort +37, Ref +27, Will +22.

And you've got 13 feats left to twink this thing out.

It has AC 20, so let's pile all of those feats into Improved Natural Armor, for AC 33. Or alternatively, spend them on Roll With It from Savage Species for DR 24/- (the missing one is Toughness to qualify).

You're telling me that isn't scary?

It doesn't have wings.
Or a ranged attack.

[Rachel Lorelei]

You're telling me that isn't scary?

It can't fly and it's horribly vulnerable to rays.

It also has an INT of 2, if your players happen to be using Ray of Stupidity.


A party that has a blaster caster might have problems (if they don't all fly up and kill it from out of range), though.

[sonofzeal]

It doesn't have wings.
Max ranks in Jump. That's a +86, even if increasing size doesn't boost move speed. Add in straight height, and reach, and I don't see this as a major problem.


Or a ranged attack.
With 14 free feats, I'm sure we can find a way to give it one.

Note that this is all still with the normal creature, we could still apply the Elite (or even Non-elite) array, or change those three normal feats it has.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Max ranks in Jump. That's a +86, even if increasing size doesn't boost move speed. Add in straight height, and reach, and I don't see this as a major problem.
+86 jump with a roll of, let's say, 12, lets you vertically jump 22 feet. That's not very threatening to things that can fly, even with height and reach. Indoors, it's more threatening, but indoors it has to deal with Wall spells.



With 14 free feats, I'm sure we can find a way to give it one.
Unlikely. Not a threatening one.


Note that this is all still with the normal creature, we could still apply the Elite (or even Non-elite) array, or change those three normal feats it has.
Elite array is another CR increase.

[Collin152]

Max ranks in Jump. That's a +86, even if increasing size doesn't boost move speed. Add in straight height, and reach, and I don't see this as a major problem.


See Ninja above.
I use whatever long range spell/s I want and kill it.

Also, show me how those feats can grant a Polar Bear a ranged attack.

[sonofzeal]

It can't fly and it's horribly vulnerable to rays.

It also has an INT of 2, if your players happen to be using Ray of Stupidity.


A party that has a blaster caster might have problems (if they don't all fly up and kill it from out of range), though.
Yes, yes, a sufficiently prepared Wizard beats everything, we know that. The beast is still and animal, and vulnerable to a certain set of tactics which work on all animals. However, unless you can get every single party member out of its reach on the first turn, somebody is likely going to die. And unless you've got Ray of Stupidity, you've got a heck of a lot of hp to work through and it pretty much all has to be in Ray form because you're not going to beat those saves without massive cheese.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Yes, yes, a sufficiently prepared Wizard beats everything, we know that. The beast is still and animal, and vulnerable to a certain set of tactics which work on all animals. However, unless you can get every single party member out of its reach on the first turn, somebody is likely going to die. And unless you've got Ray of Stupidity, you've got a heck of a lot of hp to work through and it pretty much all has to be in Ray form because you're not going to beat those saves without massive cheese.

Even the hundred damage it's likely to output (grappling is quite unlikely to work at that level--Freedom of Movement) won't kill the significant majority of PCs. What's more, the wizard is very likely to act first (after which the bear is rendered incapable of going up to someone and hitting them) because the bear doesn't have a very good initiative score.

The wizard doesn't need to be Sufficiently Prepared (is a Sufficiently Prepared Wizard like a Sufficiently Advanced Alien (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SufficientlyAdvancedAlien)?), a "normal" spell list can handle it.

The first action is to control it: one of several Wall spells around it or a Solid Fog dropped on it do that just fine.

After that, +22 Will isn't actually *that* high at level 16 (18 INT, +4 levels, +6 item, makes for 28 INT, giving 7th level spells a DC of 26. Hit it with an a couple of Enervations or one metamagicked one (might need to add another if you get unlucky) and throw a couple of spells at it and you're done. And that's all core-only (unless you want to Split Ray rather than Empower your Enervation, or do both).


Overall, the most striking thing is that it's a bad monster--either your party has a good wizard, in which case you're fine... or the party has flight, in which case you're fine... or people die.

[sonofzeal]

Also, show me how those feats can grant a Polar Bear a ranged attack.
Shape Soulmeld.

[GoC]

It doesn't have wings.
Or a ranged attack.

Niether does the Tarrasque.

EDIT: In fact this is like an over CRed low level Tarrasque. neither are threatening when you're prepared.
EDIT2: H (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mummy.htm#mummyLord)e (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightwalker)r (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut)e (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#greaterStoneGolem) are some example of CR 15-16. Note that only one can fly and that at only 20 ft with poor maneuverability.

[Collin152]

Shape Soulmeld.

Can an INT 2 thing do that?


Niether does the Tarrasque.

EDIT: In fact this is like an over CRed low level Tarrasque. neither are threatening when you're prepared.
Tarrasque is a joke anyways.

[sonofzeal]

Can an INT 2 thing do that?
I see nothing in the rules to say it can't. The feat merely requires "Con 13", which we have in droves. It also easily qualifies for the "Open Least/Lesser/Greater Chakra" feats too. You could easily get Flight that way, and probably some form of protection from Enervation/Stupidity while you're at it. Magic of Incarnum is one of the few subsystems I've never really worked through though, so I'll leave the details to you guys.

[Nebo_]

Can an INT 2 thing do that?

Why do people always assume that low int means you can't take feats?

Give it the Half Dragon template for wings, then it gets a little scarier.

[Collin152]

I see nothing in the rules to say it can't. The feat merely requires "Con 13", which we have in droves. It also easily qualifies for the "Open Least/Lesser/Greater Chakra" feats too. You could easily get Flight that way, and probably some form of protection from Enervation/Stupidity while you're at it. Magic of Incarnum is one of the few subsystems I've never really worked through though, so I'll leave the details to you guys.

So, in order to make an animal viable... We have to give it magic?
That's DnD for you.


Why do people always assume that low int means you can't take feats?


Oh, I'm not. I haven't read the book providing this information, and as such don't know whether or not a non-sentient creature can use them.

[Rachel Lorelei]

I see nothing in the rules to say it can't. The feat merely requires "Con 13", which we have in droves. It also easily qualifies for the "Open Least/Lesser/Greater Chakra" feats too. You could easily get Flight that way, and probably some form of protection from Enervation/Stupidity while you're at it. Magic of Incarnum is one of the few subsystems I've never really worked through though, so I'll leave the details to you guys.

You *might* be able to get air walking. I really don't think you can get immunity to Ray of Stupidty or to Enervation (which isn't necessary, BTW, just expedient--there are other tactics). Even with the air walking, the Solid Fog set-up would still work.

But at that point, you're cheesing the monster. You might as well be giving it the 10/10/10/11/11/11 stats with its racial modifiers and putting an 11 in INT so it winds up with *3* INT and can take class levels (no CR increase), and then a level or two of a Martial Adept for some high-level maneuvers (two Swordsage levels would even let it take the air-walking stance, too).

You can also, for example, give the HD-increased polar bear the Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) template, so it has high-level Psi-Like Abilities. An Ultrablast augmented (as Psi-Like Abilities automatically are) to a ML of 46 (or whatever the bear would have left in HD increases after the template) will kill everyone in range for sure--oh, and it gets Fission. This also works with Were-High HD creatures, which have a whole LOT of HD for their CR.

[FlyMolo]

You *might* be able to get air walking. I really don't think you can get immunity to Ray of Stupidty or to Enervation (which isn't necessary, BTW, just expedient--there are other tactics). Even with the air walking, the Solid Fog set-up would still work.

But at that point, you're cheesing the monster. You might as well be giving it the 10/10/10/11/11/11 stats with its racial modifiers and putting an 11 in INT so it winds up with *3* INT and can take class levels (no CR increase), and then a level or two of a Martial Adept for some high-level maneuvers (two Swordsage levels would even let it take the air-walking stance, too).

You can also, for example, give the HD-increased polar bear the Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) template, so it has high-level Psi-Like Abilities. An Ultrablast augmented (as Psi-Like Abilities automatically are) to a ML of 46 (or whatever the bear would have left in HD increases after the template) will kill everyone in range for sure--oh, and it gets Fission. This also works with Were-High HD creatures, which have a whole LOT of HD for their CR.
Nah, class levels make a CR increase. Either +.5 or +1, depending.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Nah, class levels make a CR increase. Either +.5 or +1, depending.

Yes. +1, since melee classes should definitely be associated for a brute animal.

So replace six animal hit dice with two martial adept levels. You still get 9th level maneuver access.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

So you propose that every animal should be running around with Soulmelds? I'm not saying you can't make it ridiculous (pretty sure most parties could still handle it no problem) but if you are really resorting to having an INT 2 Polar Bear wearing Magic summoned Armor that is part of it's soul just give it Int 12 and name it Bjork already.

Two possibilities for a Colossal creature:

1) You are outside and see it coming from very very far away (Or hear it, it has incredibly bad Dex, or are you going to cross class MS just because you are bent on creating the weirdest Polar Bear ever?) now you fly up, Deal with it any of a hundred ways. (Rays against a Touch AC lower then 5, more likely 0?) until it falls over dead.

2) You encounter it inside, you hear it coming or notice it first (It can't really hide in a corner anywhere, I mean it's going to be pretty prominent in any room it's in) Then you break out the Wall of Force (with a small enough gap between it and the real wall) and deal with it as you please. Nor are it's saves particularly good, and you didn't count the huge dex penalties for size increases, so epic fail at initiative too.

It's a Tarrasque without regen, Speed Burst, ray reflection, or spell resistance. Nobody cares. A Sorcerer could Fireball the thing to death.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

And the reason I brought this up was that the Dire X type things aren't particularly threatening. Precisely because bigger and bigger numbers don't a real threat make.

I never said, "Magic Colossal Animals aren't scary." or "Half Dragon Intelligent Flying Bears aren't scary." I said, "Bigger and Bigger and more damaging bears (as per what Dire X actually does) aren't appreciable threats."

[sonofzeal]

So you propose that every animal should be running around with Soulmelds? I'm not saying you can't make it ridiculous (pretty sure most parties could still handle it no problem) but if you are really resorting to having an INT 2 Polar Bear wearing Magic summoned Armor that is part of it's soul just give it Int 12 and name it Bjork already.
He asked a question, I gave an answer. Fluff justifictation - any creature that large and that advanced is going to have a very powerful soul, and it's not surprising if it manifests in some way. Works for me.

By the way, this isn't even powergaming yet, I've merely stated what a 50 HD Colossal Polar Bear is like, given some fairly basic parameters.


2) You encounter it inside, you hear it coming or notice it first (It can't really hide in a corner anywhere, I mean it's going to be pretty prominent in any room it's in) Then you break out the Wall of Force (with a small enough gap between it and the real wall) and deal with it as you please. Nor are it's saves particularly good, and you didn't count the huge dex penalties for size increases, so epic fail at initiative too.
Epic fail right back at you for not checking the bleeding SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases). Over all three size increases, it loses a grand total of 2 dex.

[Reel On, Love]

"Soulmelds" does NOT equal "basic parameters".

[Collin152]

If all random giant bears get soulmelds, I demand each and every human get them for free.

[Reel On, Love]

If all random giant bears get soulmelds, I demand each and every human get them for free.

That's a pretty cool idea for a one-time setting/campaign.

[Collin152]

That's a pretty cool idea for a one-time setting/campaign.

I hereby sell you the idea for the price of one soul. Doen't matter whose.

[sonofzeal]

"Soulmelds" does NOT equal "basic parameters".
And did I put that in its basic statblock? Is it not still far more impressive than your average lvl 16 melee character (who'd also count as CR 16, btw)?


If all random giant bears get soulmelds, I demand each and every human get them for free.
Sure, next game I run any human with 50 racial hitdice gets a free Shape Soulmeld feat.

[Collin152]

And did I put that in its basic statblock? Is it not still far more impressive than your average lvl 16 melee character (who'd also count as CR 16, btw)?


The premise of this thread is that dire creatures do not pose a significant threat by virture of being just bigger versions of animals.
You present a psuedo-magical and rather unique creature, and this invalidates that statement...?

[Ryuuk]

Just to play devil's advocate here, this is a Colossal sized Polar Bear. Odds are no normal animal becomes a 20 meter tall behemoth without arcane/divine/psionic/incarnum intervention.

[sonofzeal]

The premise of this thread is that dire creatures do not pose a significant threat by virture of being just bigger versions of animals.
You present a psuedo-magical and rather unique creature, and this invalidates that statement...?
The comment I responded to said that a 50 HD polar bear "doesn't scare anyone at ECL 15". I submit that said polar bear would cause almost any ECL 15 Warblade to piss his pretty little pants. Whether or not Wizards of that level can beat it is not, and never was, the question.

And can you please lay off about the bloody Incarnum! I was asked a question, I gave a perfectly RAW answer, and unless you find some crazy text buries somewhere that invalidates it I'd kindly ask that you shove it. I've dealt with enough senseless abuse for one day already. Check my other thread if you don't believe me.

[Collin152]

And can you please lay off about the bloody Incarnum! I was asked a question, I gave a perfectly RAW answer, and unless you find some crazy text buries somewhere that invalidates it I'd kindly ask that you shove it. I've dealt with enough senseless abuse for one day already. Check my other thread if you don't believe me.

Wow, calm down, please.
I just find it all a little contrived.
This particular Bear may frighten adventureers, but surely they aren't all using their feats to aquire soulmelds?

[tyckspoon]

The comment I responded to said that a 50 HD polar bear "doesn't scare anyone at ECL 15". I submit that said polar bear would cause almost any ECL 15 Warblade to piss his pretty little pants. Whether or not Wizards of that level can beat it is not, and never was, the question.

Assumedly said Warblade has access to flight (because it's pretty near suicidal to be stuck on the ground at high levels) and has the sense to carry a bow or other ranged weapon, even if his build didn't focus on enhancing it. He's fine. He's not fighting at 100% efficiency because he's not using his preferred style of combat, but he's hardly pissing himself in fear of death.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Just to play devil's advocate here, this is a Colossal sized Polar Bear. Odds are no normal animal becomes a 20 meter tall behemoth without arcane/divine/psionic/incarnum intervention.

Actually, since in D&D killing things gets you XP (which a bear turns into levels of Bear, AKA animal hit dice) and a dire bear kills things all the time, I think that in D&D a normal animal *can* in fact become a 20-meter-tall behemoth without any kind of mystical intervention. :)

[sonofzeal]

Wow, calm down, please.
I just find it all a little contrived.
This particular Bear may frighten adventureers, but surely they aren't all using their feats to aquire soulmelds?
I'm sorry, but it's been a long and exceptionally aggravating day. Point is, one particular bear may have ranged attacks merely by good feat choice, but any given bear of this type is more than capable of demolishing most melee characters. It's got glaring weaknesses, yes, but it is damn good in its niche, significantly better than any ECL 16 character I've ever seen outside of the CharOp board. Against a party with no primary spellcasters, I can easily imagine this thing resulting in a TPK. Against a party with a good Wizard... well, it dies horribly. Still, I think overall it earns its CR 16 rating in spades.

[Collin152]

I'm sorry, but it's been a long and exceptionally aggravating day. Point is, one particular bear may have ranged attacks merely by good feat choice, but any given bear of this type is more than capable of demolishing most melee characters. It's got glaring weaknesses, yes, but it is damn good in its niche, significantly better than any ECL 16 character I've ever seen outside of the CharOp board. Against a party with no primary spellcasters, I can easily imagine this thing resulting in a TPK. Against a party with a good Wizard... well, it dies horribly. Still, I think overall it earns its CR 16 rating in spades.

Course, most monster manual monsters have poor feat selection anyways. I mean, they take toughness.

[Ascension]

I think the issue is that our metagaming fear and our ingame fear are diverging wildly here. Can a 16th level party easily defeat a colossal polar bear? Probably. Are a well-roleplayed character's eyes still going to bug out at the sight of such a freak of nature? Probably. Unless you're throwing enormous polar bears at your party non-stop.

[Ryuuk]

Actually, since in D&D killing things gets you XP (which a bear turns into levels of Bear, AKA animal hit dice) and a dire bear kills things all the time, I think that in D&D a normal animal *can* in fact become a 20-meter-tall behemoth without any kind of mystical intervention. :)

...point taken. Would animal's need as much xp as PCs to level? If so, this bear must've whipped out entire nations. If their level ECL is equal to their hit die, then it must've fought some epic level foes in order to keep getting xp. Soul melds wouldn't look that far fetched really, it must've optimized to some extent to reach level 50. :P

[Jacob Orlove]

Assumedly said Warblade has access to flight (because it's pretty near suicidal to be stuck on the ground at high levels) and has the sense to carry a bow or other ranged weapon, even if his build didn't focus on enhancing it. He's fine. He's not fighting at 100% efficiency because he's not using his preferred style of combat, but he's hardly pissing himself in fear of death.
He doesn't even need flight, actually. A fast enough horse + a bow will work, given sufficiently open terrain. Flight is much easier, of course, but all you need is the slimmest edge in mobility + a ranged attack and you'll kill it eventually.

I mean, even a 15th level monk with a sling could beat that bear! He wouldn't get to attack every round, though, since he'd have to move to keep well ahead of it. It'd be a lot of "Monk moves, attacks. Bear runs. Monk runs. Bear runs. Monk moves, attacks. Bear runs."

It'll take a while to chew through 575 HP if you're going 1d4 points at a time, but it's not like the Monk has anything better to do with his time.

[sonofzeal]

Assumedly said Warblade has access to flight (because it's pretty near suicidal to be stuck on the ground at high levels) and has the sense to carry a bow or other ranged weapon, even if his build didn't focus on enhancing it. He's fine. He's not fighting at 100% efficiency because he's not using his preferred style of combat, but he's hardly pissing himself in fear of death.
Since Warblades are specifically not proficient with any ranged weapons, and to my knowledge no actual Warblade ability grants flight... yeah, I'm pretty happy with that. Even with a Carpet of Flying, he's only going up 20 feet a turn. Given sufficient warning (which, granted, is not hard to imagine) he can make it... but it's going to take 3-4 turns after the beginning of combat to reach a safe distance. And if he doesn't... the thing pretty much auto-hits, does significant damage, and few are the Warblades who would waste a ring slot and 40,000 gp on Freedom of Movement.

So yeah, from the moment he sees this thing (ANY of these things, not just the Incarnum one) he's going to be running for his life and praying the beast doesn't get to him inside those 3-4 turns. Causing a melee brute as tough and powerful as a Warblade to flee in complete terror is, I think, worthy of the CR. And how many creatures of that CR can be sniped to death from the sky already?

[The Extinguisher]

Does anyone else see that the "a wizard can beat it therefore it's not an effective monster" arguement a little silly.

By that logic, we should just toss out the entire Monster Manual.
I've one shot a Titan with a non-epic sorceror. Does that mean Titan's aren't a scary challenge.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

1) CR is based on facing a party. No party ever is going to worry about it.

2) Everyone has flight by level 12. Everyone, mostly through wings of flying and other such fun items, not carpets.

3) Of course CR 16 can be better at melee machining then ECL 16. CR is like that. While a Human Warblade 16 is CR 16, a Polar Bear like this is ECL 50. Look at any template that adds +4 LA and +1-2 CR.

4) You and I clearly view CR differently. I expect a CR X to be a reasonably fun and challenging encounter for a slightly optimized party of that level. Not a, "Be even remotely intelligent and prepared for your level and you get free XP. Be an idiot and you die."

5) A Huge Bear isn't a good encounter. There is no reason for it, there is nothing particularly fun about it, and any group I've ever been in would destroy that thing at level 10. No I don't think that WotC, as silly as they can be made a template called "Make Big Bear Even Bigger!" just to cater to the five types of people (people who are willing to not have fun as long as they get XP, DMs who want to kill their parties but are bad at it (or have bad parties), and everyone I've forgotten).

6) This is not to say that all your points aren't perfectly valid in the sense that we probably disagree about things that are perfectly valid, and or have miscommunicated past each other. Also, I want to profusely thank you for the Incarnum Bear concept, because it is awesome, win, and might actually be very fun/funny. I'm definitely going to use it in the campaign setting/campaign I've been designing.

7)
Does anyone else see that the "a wizard can beat it therefore it's not an effective monster" arguement a little silly.

By that logic, we should just toss out the entire Monster Manual.
I've one shot a Titan with a non-epic sorceror. Does that mean Titan's aren't a scary challenge.

The reason it is a bad encounter is not because a Wizard can beat it. It's because any party with any intelligence is going to fly up and ignore this thing/move faster then it away. Because a Warmage with boots of flying could beat this thing. It's because a level 15 Monk with 8 Str, 8 Dex, a sling, and some way of having infinite bullets could beat this thing (unless it goes the DR route with it's feats.)

[Crow]

Take your wizard and shove it.

In just about 90% of D&D games, the 50HD Dire Bear is going to be a bruiser. "But the wizard is always prepared!", blah blah blah...

Get back to the point.

[Bhu]

I was wondering if anyone has seen a template for dire animals that is approximate to the power difference between normal animals and their dire counterparts?

I made an experimental "Dire Thingie" template on the WIzards boards...

Its a little twitchy though.

[Ascension]

5) A Huge Bear isn't a good encounter. There is no reason for it, there is nothing particularly fun about it, and any group I've ever been in would destroy that thing at level 10. No I don't think that WotC, as silly as they can be made a template called "Make Big Bear Even Bigger!" just to cater to the five types of people (people who are willing to not have fun as long as they get XP, DMs who want to kill their parties but are bad at it (or have bad parties), and everyone I've forgotten).

ENORMOUS. BEAR. What do you mean it's not awesome? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatDoYouMeanItsNotAwesome)

Colossal bears don't NEED a reason for existing. They only cease to be cool if you view them in purely mechanical terms.

[Tam_OConnor]

Hate to interrupt all the aggression going around here, but in response to the OP: The folk prior have pointed out that there's no official Dire template. True. But there are some other lovely ones that work well with animals, turning them into threats. Occasionally even to sufficiently prepared wizards.

Starting from the Mundane:
Advancing HD: As earlier folk have said, sometimes it's just a straight advancement from normal to Dire via HD. I don't think this was true for wolves, but I could be misremembering.
Animal Companions: Even without the Druid, these things can be vicious. It's just HD increase with a little more frosting on top. Plus, if they're companions gone feral, or whatnot, there's an excuse for them to have gear.
Warbeast (MM2): Basically turns any animal into a ridable, maddened destrier. As I recall, there was a strength increase, but I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't speak definitively.

The Exotic:
Half-Dragon: Now, just because you apply this template doesn't mean that it really has to be a half-dragon. It could just be a freakish mutation. As long as your party doesn't specifically have anti-dragon items (and cause headaches, because it's a dragon by the rules, but not by the story), you don't have a thing to worry about.
Monster of Legend (MM2): Another template that adds a lot a versatility, though be careful. The Spell Turning ability, in particular, isn't remotely balanced. Depending on which abilities you select, the CR could change dramatically. This would the ideal way to give the bear a ranged attack without dipping into more obscure rulebooks (never did buy Incarnum).

And finally, the most fantastic:
The Kaiju. That's right, the Godzilla template. (Dragon 289, if you have it; mine's run off, apparently...). It's basically the Monster of Legend template on steroids, and with the base monster advanced to 40+ HD. It's probably outside the normal adventuring range, but it's just so much fun...

THE FURRED GLACIER: 50 HD 'Half-White Dragon' Polar Bear Kaiju Monster of Legend. It's bigger than Waterdeep, breaths a cone of cold that could stretch across the Dale, and summons elder lightning elementals from the storm of vengeance ranging around it...This is no mere animal; this is a force of nature! (And only slightly exaggerated)!

[sonofzeal]

ENORMOUS. BEAR. What do you mean it's not awesome? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatDoYouMeanItsNotAwesome)

Colossal bears don't NEED a reason for existing. They only cease to be cool if you view them in purely mechanical terms.
Plus, mine can shoot laser beams out of its eyes! =D

Now all we need is to get a Gargantuan Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot with both arms replaced by chainsaws that also shoot lasers to ride it.

[Talic]

At Level 16, we have access to:

Level 16 Frenzied Berzerker, Orc, with a 22 base str, (26 after level stats), Enlarge Person for +2 more, and Let's say his good items include a belt of Str +6, and a Tome of Str +2. Factor in Animal Devotion (Ape) for +2 more, and +8 Frenzied Berzerker. 46 Str. This isn't even REALLY optimized, for me.

+18 to hit, +27 to damage.

Level 1 was lion totem barbarian. Feats include leap attack, power attack, shock trooper, and combat brute.

Attacks, assuming +3 Greatsword.

+33/+28/+23/+18 If he's lucky enough to get wraithstrike 1x a day, they're autohit, if not, no big.

Power attack for 16, Each hit is 2d8+94. (+64 power attack 1 for 2 +100%, +27 Str*1.5, +3 magic) Average of 101 damage a hit. Assuming 2 hits a round, it out damages bear round 1, and followup round 2 ain't gonna be much nicer. Round out with Dodge/Elusive Target to negate any power attack cheese from the bear.

[sonofzeal]

At Level 16, we have access to:

Level 16 Frenzied Berzerker, Orc, with a 22 base str, (26 after level stats), Enlarge Person for +2 more, and Let's say his good items include a belt of Str +6, and a Tome of Str +2. Factor in Animal Devotion (Ape) for +2 more, and +8 Frenzied Berzerker. 46 Str. This isn't even REALLY optimized, for me.

+18 to hit, +27 to damage.

Level 1 was lion totem barbarian. Feats include leap attack, power attack, shock trooper, and combat brute.

Attacks, assuming +3 Greatsword.

+33/+28/+23/+18 If he's lucky enough to get wraithstrike 1x a day, they're autohit, if not, no big.

Power attack for 16, Each hit is 2d8+94. (+64 power attack 1 for 2 +100%, +27 Str*1.5, +3 magic) Average of 101 damage a hit. Assuming 2 hits a round, it out damages bear round 1, and followup round 2 ain't gonna be much nicer. Round out with Dodge/Elusive Target to negate any power attack cheese from the bear.
Power attacking for 16 is going to cause big problems against the "basic" form which has AC 33. Also, said Orc's Grapple check is a "mere" +39. Barring a nat20, he's not getting away and will quite rapidly get crushed to death now that he {a} can't use his +3 greatsword, {b} can't Power Attack well with any weapon he CAN use, and {c} is biting that -4 penalty for attacking inside a grapple, which makes Power Attacking an even worse idea.

Bear wins, sorry.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Power attacking for 16 is going to cause big problems against the "basic" form which has AC 33. Also, said Orc's Grapple check is a "mere" +39. Barring a nat20, he's not getting away and will quite rapidly get crushed to death now that he {a} can't use his +3 greatsword, {b} can't Power Attack well with any weapon he CAN use, and {c} is biting that -4 penalty for attacking inside a grapple, which makes Power Attacking an even worse idea.

Bear wins, sorry.

I may be mistaken here, but I think the Frenzied Berserker has a better Grapple Check:

46 Str= +18, +16 BAB, + 4 size= +38 grapple check. So he's out grappling the Colossal Bear too, though of course, it's mostly up to the roles since they are so close.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Take your wizard and shove it.

In just about 90% of D&D games, the 50HD Dire Bear is going to be a bruiser. "But the wizard is always prepared!", blah blah blah...

Get back to the point.

I understand that you may be upset about the Wizards being prepared for everything stuff. But seriously consider what we are talking about here.

Level 15. Have you ever had a Level 15 party that couldn't fly?

This isn't about being prepared. This is about any Wizard, any Cleric, any Sorcerer, or Druid, or Archivist, or Beguiler, or Dread Necromancer, or Warmage being able to beat this thing. Most archers too. And anyone who can fly really.

Party takes to the air, one of a blhundred different battlefield control spells screws up the Bear. Party uses ranged weapons, or Blasts, or targets the pretty average Will/Reflex saves for that level. Or targets the Touch AC of less then 8 when the lowest BAB they could possibly have is +7.

This isn't an encounter. This is a quick way to find out if your players are horrendously under prepared. If you can't all fly by this level, you are going to lose to half the Monster Manual, since most of it consists of things that are Bigger and scarier then your fighters and have other abilities too.

[sonofzeal]

I may be mistaken here, but I think the Frenzied Berserker has a better Grapple Check:

46 Str= +18, +16 BAB, + 4 size= +38 grapple check. So he's out grappling the Colossal Bear too, though of course, it's mostly up to the roles since they are so close.
Sorry? I meant that +39 was my estimate of the FB's grapple mod. The Bear's grapple is +71. Bit of a difference there.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Sorry? I meant that +39 was my estimate of the FB's grapple mod. The Bear's grapple is +71. Bit of a difference there.

Okay, my Bad. Sometimes me no read so good. For some reason I thought that was the Bears Mod, and I was wondering what kind of BAB animal HD have, 1/4? This makes much more sense though.

[Zocelot]

Imagine this encounter.

The party enters a huge cave in the arctic tundra, and in the cave are multiple bears. One bear moves in front of the entrance, so that the party can't escape. Although the cave is big enough for the bears to live in, there isn't enough room to fly out of range, so the party has to stay and fight where the bears can fight back.

The number of bears couldn't resonably exceed four, so the ECL should be less then 20.

[Crow]

Imagine this encounter.

The party enters a huge cave in the arctic tundra, and in the cave are multiple bears. One bear moves in front of the entrance, so that the party can't escape. Although the cave is big enough for the bears to live in, there isn't enough room to fly out of range, so the party has to stay and fight where the bears can fight back.

The number of bears couldn't resonably exceed four, so the ECL should be less then 20.

That's obviously a very framework description of the situation, but yes.

Flying is not the be-all end-all of D&D. Frankly, if your party takes to the air for every encounter, I'd say you're giving them a bit too much freedom. No party I have ever played with has had the luxury of choosing the battlefield for every battle. Sometimes you have to fight on the enemy's home turf and flying isn't feasable.

If you want to make a point, you need to move away from the flying thing, because a good portion of the time, your party may not have that option, which means a good portion of the time, this thing is going to eat them.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Imagine this encounter.

The party enters a huge cave in the arctic tundra, and in the cave are multiple bears. One bear moves in front of the entrance, so that the party can't escape. Although the cave is big enough for the bears to live in, there isn't enough room to fly out of range, so the party has to stay and fight where the bears can fight back.

The number of bears couldn't resonably exceed four, so the ECL should be less then 20.

1) I'm not sure how (or why, it seems rather stupid) a party would walk into a huge cave, not notice the four colossal bears, and keep walking so far that one of them could get in front of the entrance, still without them noticing.

2) This would be the part where you break out a Wall of Force, which easily prevents any of the Bears from reaching you, but still provides you with room to fire back.

3)Remember those spells/items that give you teleport actions? Those can get you past a bear real easy.

4) Remember the less the Stellar Will saves for CR 16? Even less so for CR 20. Wail of the Banshee kills 2+ right off the bat (though of course, requiring an actual expenditure of a 9th level spell slot would be more then I'd expect from these bears in most situations)

Note: I don't check the SRD every time I think, maybe Wail requires a Fort save, replace it with some other AoE will save effect.


Sometimes you have to fight on the enemy's home turf and flying isn't feasable.

Sometimes you don't get to choose the battlefield, against Int 2, you can almost always.

[Collin152]

Note: I don't check the SRD every time I think, maybe Wail requires a Fort save, replace it with some other AoE will save effect.

Wierd.
AKA, Mass Phantasmal Killer.
Proceed.

[Zocelot]

1) I'm not sure how (or why, it seems rather stupid) a party would walk into a huge cave, not notice the four colossal bears, and keep walking so far that one of them could get in front of the entrance, still without them noticing.

Well, the bears could have really good hide skills. And maybe a camouflage bonus, because everything is white.

[Collin152]

Well, the bears could have really good hide skills. And maybe a camouflage bonus, because everything is white.

"You enter the cavern. You see what follows below:"









"Roll for initiative."

[Zocelot]

Well, the bears would get a surprise round first. That's probably enough to seriously injure any member of the party.
So it would reallly look like this:
"You enter the cavern. You see what follows below:"








"Suddenly, 4 bears rip the McGraffa to shreds. Roll for initiative."

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Well, the bears could have really good hide skills. And maybe a camouflage bonus, because everything is white.

And this is my point. We are talking about four 60ft bears hiding. They are Colossal, they have a huge penalty to hide, but because of the rules of D&D they have 50 HD and that automatically means they can cross class Hide to crazy amount. (Still probably not good enough to hide from a level 15 character with spot as a class skill.)

But while we are doing things using metagame knowledge of what the best skills and stats are, why don't they put an 11 in INT instead of a 10, and then cross class UMD and use rods? And they should take Skill Focus/Magical Aptitude/Dual wands (and apply it to Rods, since they are colossal.)

[Reel On, Love]

Sure, IF we assume that (the COLOSSAL) bears' hide somehow beats everyone's spot... and that the party stupidly all walk in packed together so that the entrance can be blocked... and therefore the bears get a surprise round, because the party didn't know they were there...

...then the party still just teleports outside. And now the mouth of the cave is an excellent choke point.

[Crow]

Sure, IF we assume that (the COLOSSAL) bears' hide somehow beats everyone's spot... and that the party stupidly all walk in packed together so that the entrance can be blocked... and therefore the bears get a surprise round, because the party didn't know they were there...

...then the party still just teleports outside. And now the mouth of the cave is an excellent choke point.

Yes, now apply that every monster ever published, including the flying ones.

Great, you still haven't proven fault with this monster in particular.

[Zocelot]

The encounter can be changed a bit.
Why not have a mystic shrine to the bear god that radiates an anti-magic shield? And make the cave dark, so that it's easier to hide in.
Possibly, the PCs could be teleported into the cave by a BBEG. And the shrine would stop them from teleporting out. (I think it's possible to be teleported INTO an antimagic field).
There are a lot of possibilities, you just have to play it right.

[Reel On, Love]

Yes, now apply that every monster ever published, including the flying ones.

Great, you still haven't proven fault with this monster in particular.

"Every monster ever published" doesn't need to surround the PCs in a cave to pose a threat. The point was that getting the PCs surrounded by bears in a cave makes no sense, since they'd see the bears (among other things).

The fault with this monster in particular is it's terribly designed. It has a couple of major flaws (from being an animal), and it's an "either your wizard is good/you're outside and you disable and win/shoot it did, or it eats a couple of people because it outclasses the melee characters so much."



The encounter can be changed a bit.
Why not have a mystic shrine to the bear god that radiates an anti-magic shield? And make the cave dark, so that it's easier to hide in.
Possibly, the PCs could be teleported into the cave by a BBEG. And the shrine would stop them from teleporting out. (I think it's possible to be teleported INTO an antimagic field).
There are a lot of possibilities, you just have to play it right.
Stop. Just... stop. No, you can't teleport into an AMF (unless you want to rule that you can also teleport out of it, since Teleport is an instantaneous conjuration).

Why not have a mystic shrine to the bear god that radiates an anti-magic field (that presumably fills the cave, rather than being a 10' emanation)? Because that's blatantly using DM fiat to screw the PCs over in an totally dull way.
The cave is presumably dark. PCs have darkvision, light sources, or both.


There are not "a lot of possibilities". It's a bad idea for an encounter, and it wouldn't work well in a game. Piling DM-fiat antimagic shrines and the PCs being teleported around just makes it worse.

[Collin152]

Stop. Just... stop. No, you can't teleport into an AMF (unless you want to rule that you can also teleport out of it, since Teleport is an instantaneous conjuration).

Why not have a mystic shrine to the bear god that radiates an anti-magic field (that presumably fills the cave, rather than being a 10' emanation)? Because that's blatantly using DM fiat to screw the PCs over in an totally dull way.
The cave is presumably dark. PCs have darkvision, light sources, or both.


There are not "a lot of possibilities". It's a bad idea for an encounter, and it wouldn't work well in a game. Piling DM-fiat antimagic shrines and the PCs being teleported around just makes it worse.

I thought that was a joke post, myself...

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Well, the bears would get a surprise round first. That's probably enough to seriously injure any member of the party.
So it would reallly look like this:

1) Have you ever seen a Polar Bear in the snow or a Tiger in the grass? They are pretty easy to spot. The only reason it works is because their natural prey is, well, prey. And Predators (including humans) have better eyesight then prey. That's why our eyes are in the front of our head. We have depth perception, we see things, even when the camouflage.

2) Do you seriously just hand out Surprise Rounds like that? Do you know what a Surprise round represents? Colossal Means the ground shakes when they walk. The Bears have about a 0% chance of noticing the party before they are noticed. They might find out at the same time (like when the party rounds a corner or something), but they aren't going to catch anyone by surprise. And once again, this presumes that you have a party of ignorant idiots who wander aimlessly.

Name a CR 20 Encounter that doesn't have a 50% or greater chance of killing someone if you assume the Idiot PCs walk directly into it without any of the hundred preparations available at that level (including just looking around) and then get jumped.

Luckily that never comes up, because anyone that careless and stupid isn't going to make it to 20th level.

[GoC]

It's a Tarrasque without regen, Speed Burst, ray reflection, or spell resistance. Nobody cares. A Sorcerer could Fireball the thing to death.

SpeedBurst sucks. The collosal bear can move just as fast with a single feat.
Then there's tha massive diference in level, Tarrasques are dealing with 9th level spell while the bear only has to worry about level 7.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

SpeedBurst sucks. The collosal bear can move just as fast with a single feat.
Then there's tha massive diference in level, Tarrasques are dealing with 9th level spell while the bear only has to worry about level 7.

1) What feat? I'm sure my PCs would be interested in triple speed feats.

2) Yeah, and all those things that actually keep the Tarrasque alive for more then six seconds are nice too.

[sonofzeal]

1) What feat? I'm sure my PCs would be interested in triple speed feats.

2) Yeah, and all those things that actually keep the Tarrasque alive for more then six seconds are nice too.
1) I'm sure they would. However, the Polar Bear has twice the base speed of the Tarrasque already. That's where the difference comes from.

2) That Damn Bear also has resoundingly better HP and Saves than a Titan, Solar, Pit Fiend, or Balor. It lacks special defenses, but it's natural ones are pretty impressive.

3) You're all thinking the wrong way about channelling the PCs to That Damn Bear. Work from the other direction - maybe the PCs are sent into an arena, and TDB is 'ported in or released through some massive gates to fight them. Maybe the BBEG has the ability to summon it. Maybe it waits inside a giant cave with a small entrance, ready to pounce on the first thing that wanders in - that deals with Hide checks since it auto-succeeds due to full cover, and while divination would still work it at least gives the bear a reasonable chance to catch them off-guard (and Invisible people would have to also be flying, because the snow would reveal where they are and it's not like the bear can't swipe at a massive portion of the ground). Maybe TDB has been adopted by some higher power, and decked out in Golden Compass-esque armor, including things to defend against various of the methods proposed.



So, what do people think is the "optimal" feat selection for TDB? Like it or hate it, how would you pimp it out with that massive swathe of feats to cover its weaknesses and build on its strengths? Can those feats turn it from a walking pincushion into a living nightmare?

[sonofzeal]

Here's my submission for feats (without getting into Epic Feats, because that's a whole other can of worms.


1) Improved Toughness
2) Iron Will (Will 24 now)
3) Deflect Arrows (via the possibly outdated rule that natural attacks count as Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of feats and whatnot)
4) Open Least Chakra: Crown (Will 25 now)
5) Open XYZ Chakra: Feet
6) Open XYZ Chakra: Shoulders
7) Open XYZ Chakra: Throat
8) Open XYZ Chakra: (waist or heart)
9) Shape Soulmeld(Enigma Helm) <- blocking divination helps in the wait-and-pounce scenario, provides a means of boosting its Will even further, and can provide total immunity to charms.
10) Shape Soulmeld(Airstep Sandals) <- Flight, if limited. Avoids earthshaking footsteps at least.
11) Shape Soulmeld(Adamant Pauldrons) <- extra physical defence agains that stupid suicidal warblade
12) Shape Soulmeld(Apparition Ribbon) <- helps against one way of protecting yourself against it, and the ability to turn incorporeal itself is not to be underrated
13) Shape Soulmeld(Strongheart Vest) <- helps against Ray of Stupidity
14) Bonus Essentia



I'll work on a ToB version later, using Martial Study and Martial Stance instead. That might produce interesting things.

[Collin152]

and it's not like the bear can't swipe at a massive portion of the ground

Interestingly enough, this is not the case. While it may reach a massive area, it may only attack a single five foot square.

[sonofzeal]

Interestingly enough, this is not the case. While it may reach a massive area, it may only attack a single five foot square.
Of course. However, it's a nice flavour justification for the mechanic of letting the bear spot invisible attackers by their impression in the snow, same as the rules describe for walking through a puddle. So the mechanics work, but the flavour's nicer with the giant sweeps.

Are you going to make an attempt at a feat loadout?

[Collin152]

Of course. However, it's a nice flavour justification for the mechanic of letting the bear spot invisible attackers by their impression in the snow, same as the rules describe for walking through a puddle. So the mechanics work, but the flavour's nicer with the giant sweeps.

Are you going to make an attempt at a feat loadout?

At a what now?

[sonofzeal]

At a what now?
At a set of feats to make this thing viable.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

My feats for a giant bear:

1) Multi attack
2) That swatting them ten feet feat in MM
3) Other **** that actually fits a giant Bear, probably Improved Toughness when I run out of things that actually fit.

[sonofzeal]

My feats for a giant bear:

1) Multi attack
2) That swatting them ten feet feat in MM
3) Other **** that actually fits a giant Bear, probably Improved Toughness when I run out of things that actually fit.
Multiattack's pretty useless, since it only gives you a +3 to one attack that's almost certainly hitting anyway. Waste of a feat.

Snatch is a good idea though, as is Improved Natural Attack, Brutal Throw (for throwing boulders at stupid flying gnat-like men, or throwing PCs at other PCs via Snatch), and Channeled Rage (no more worries on Willpower saves!).

Another ludicrously broken option would be Leadership + Might Makes Right. How much do you think he can do with a Leadership score of 75? And before you ask - yes he qualifies to take Leadership.

Justification: just picture this guy for a minute. In any gameworld he exists in, TDB is likely going to be worshiped as a god incarnate. His followers are his myriad worshippers (mostly peasants), and his Cohort is his high priest. He doesn't actually call the shots, he just goes around doing whatever a Colossal Polar Bear does and his High Priest Cohort reads meaning into his actions and shares that with the people, who then try to do the TDB's will. He's threatened by PCs? Smite the unbelievers (with cunning arguments)! He steps on a village? Repent from your sin lest you face his wrath! He tries to couple with a mountain? It is a sign that the crops will be well!

........I'm so putting this guy into my current gameworld. :smallcool:

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Multiattack's pretty useless, since it only gives you a +3 to one attack that's almost certainly hitting anyway. Waste of a feat.

Snatch is a good idea though, as is Improved Natural Attack, Brutal Throw (for throwing boulders at stupid flying gnat-like men, or throwing PCs at other PCs via Snatch), and Channeled Rage (no more worries on Willpower saves!).

Another ludicrously broken option would be Leadership + Might Makes Right. How much do you think he can do with a Leadership score of 75? And before you ask - yes he qualifies to take Leadership.

Justification: just picture this guy for a minute. In any gameworld he exists in, TDB is likely going to be worshiped as a god incarnate. His followers are his myriad worshippers (mostly peasants), and his Cohort is his high priest. He doesn't actually call the shots, he just goes around doing whatever a Colossal Polar Bear does and his High Priest Cohort reads meaning into his actions and shares that with the people, who then try to do the TDB's will. He's threatened by PCs? Smite the unbelievers (with cunning arguments)! He steps on a village? Repent from your sin lest you face his wrath! He tries to couple with a mountain? It is a sign that the crops will be well!

........I'm so putting this guy into my current gameworld. :smallcool:

I think you entirely missed my point. My point is that as a giant Polar Bear he would take the feats that make sense for a Giant Polar Bear instead of weird crap that makes no sense.

And Leadership? With a Caster Cohort? So now I am to believe a Giant Polar Bear that lays traps for the party and apparently attacks them the second he sees them (in a surprise round) also has a legion of followers that he for some reason never attacks. How about this, hios cohort is dead, so are all his followers, he attacked them. He also has a Leadership Score of -12 from killing all his followers.

Seriously, he has 50 HD if you are so intend on cheese apply the Celestial template and then give him 20 Bear HD, followed by a couple levels in Swordsage. And have him take epic feats. Or just declasre that he's actually a level 20 Wizard. But please stop making fun of everyone who treats a giant Bear as a giant Bear instead of genius intellect PC with 50HD.

And quit with the stupid "That Damn Bear" ****, it isn't funny. That Damn Crab is dangerous for it's CR. For the Bears CR the only thing PCs can't do better then it is Grapple. And They could even do that if someone had a Wu-Jen to cast Giant Size on them. Not to mention the fact that level one characters could beat this thing.

[GoC]

1) What feat? I'm sure my PCs would be interested in triple speed feats.

2) Yeah, and all those things that actually keep the Tarrasque alive for more then six seconds are nice too.

I was wrong, he doesn't even need a feat (I was thiking of Run)! The bear has a run speed of 160ft compared to the Tarrasques Rush speed of 150ft.
As sonofzeal mentioned the bear's hp and saves are better than the Tarrasque's despite the massive 6 CR difference.

I agree that sonofzeal's feat selection is completely ludicrous but some things (like throwing big rocks) make sense.
Here's an idea: compare the bear to the kitten in my sig. They've got the same CR and everyone agrees that kitten is a TPK waiting to happen.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I was wrong, he doesn't even need a feat (I was thiking of Run)! The bear has a run speed of 160ft compared to the Tarrasques Rush speed of 150ft.
As sonofzeal mentioned the bear's hp and saves are better than the Tarrasque's despite the massive 6 CR difference.

I agree that sonofzeal's feat selection is completely ludicrous but some things (like throwing big rocks) make sense.
Here's an idea: compare the bear to the kitten in my sig. They've got the same CR and everyone agrees that kitten is a TPK waiting to happen.

1) I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Rush can be used by as part of a double move or a run. Or for that matter a charge. So using your full action to run you travel less far then a Tarrasque that gets an attack afterwards.

2) The Bear is CR 16, thats a very different CR then the Cat, Also the CR difference between the Bear and the Tarrasque is 4, not that it matters because nobody thinks the Tarresque is worthy of it's CR, but it at least requires someone to expend a High level spell to kill it.

3) Throwing big rocks doesn't make sense. If a bird flys away from a Bear that was going to kill it would it throw small rocks? No, because it's a Bear with Int 2 that doesn't use projectiles. Projectile weapons not a part of your body are the first sign of intelligence. It makes perfect since if you want to actually make the Bear a threat, but so does giving it spellcasting. It makes 0 sense of any kind for a bear to do that. It's only Metagame wanting the PCs to be in danger that makes anyone want to do that.

4) Your Cat is CR 12, that's a lot lower then the Bear. It's also moree threatening then the Bear. Honestly the only reason that Cat would be a TPK is if you were caught off guard by it's abilities (which is likely) compare that yo a giant bear, which is not going to surprise anyone with spell turning or immunities.

The reason the cat is dangerous is because it has all the things that I said the Dire X progression lacks, Intelligence, Immunities, Protections, SLAs to use against flying enemies (though depending on CL those might not help much and it might still be pretty easy to beat.)

[Zocelot]

The bear is an animal, so why not teach it the "throw rock" trick? Or you could apply the fiendish/celestial template and make it a magical beast, which means it get an intelligence of at least 3.

[Collin152]

The bear is an animal, so why not teach it the "throw rock" trick? Or you could apply the fiendish/celestial template and make it a magical beast, which means it get an intelligence of at least 3.

Is this thread even about Dire animals anymore?

[Zocelot]

Is this thread even about Dire animals anymore?

Sort of. If you singulize Dire animals, and understand that dire is just advancing the animal in hit dice.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

The bear is an animal, so why not teach it the "throw rock" trick? Or you could apply the fiendish/celestial template and make it a magical beast, which means it get an intelligence of at least 3.

Well:

1) Because I already suggested the Celestial example of Int 3 as the perfect example of making the giant bear a lot less giant bear like. (IE take levels in Swordsage, you can probably get 9th level maneuvers really quickly if not with your first level of Swordsage.)

2) Because throw rock isn't a trick, because it requires being smarter then an animal.

[Collin152]

2) Because throw rock isn't a trick, because it requires being smarter then an animal.

Monkeys throw rocks.
Chimps especially.
Okay, technically chimps aren't monkeys, but nobody honors the classification of ape versus monkey anyways.

[Chronos]

Okay, technically chimps aren't monkeys, but nobody honors the classification of ape versus monkey anyways.Actually, if you go by the modern taxonomy systems, apes are a subset of monkeys. That is to say, any category which includes all of the monkeys must also include the apes: Any given ape is more closely related to any given Old World monkey than any given Old World monkey is to any given New World monkey.

Intelligence aside, though, I don't think a bear is physically capable of the sorts of manipulations needed to throw objects. Monkeys have opposable fingers and thumbs; bears don't.

[Collin152]

Intelligence aside, though, I don't think a bear is physically capable of the sorts of manipulations needed to throw objects. Monkeys have opposable fingers and thumbs; bears don't.

So... when that bear threw a tree at me...
It wasn't a bear?
:eek:

[Zocelot]

Funnily enough, it's not the intelligence of the bear, but rather the handle animal check that teaches the bear to throw rocks/trees/commoners.

A few levels in hulking hurler would be cool, if the bear was smart enough to take class levels.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Monkeys throw rocks.
Chimps especially.
Okay, technically chimps aren't monkeys, but nobody honors the classification of ape versus monkey anyways.

Oh you mean chimpanzees, widely recognized as the smartest non-human animal, the species that is so intelligent and human like that whether or not they posses the beginnings of human-like intelligence is regularly questioned?

I'm sure if the second smartest species on the planet (Hitchhikers Guide aside) with dexterous hands and a studied history of manipulating objects can throw rocks then a Bear with none of those things could figure it out. I'm sure he'd also figure out the part where he'd probably have to break of pieces of things to get rocks anything comparable to his size, especially since he supposedly lives in the arctic where there are no surface rocks.


Funnily enough, it's not the intelligence of the bear, but rather the handle animal check that teaches the bear to throw rocks/trees/commoners.

A few levels in hulking hurler would be cool, if the bear was smart enough to take class levels.

There is no trick called throw rocks!

If you are making up your own tricks that are far beyond the capabilities of what animals can do why not use this one:

Trick:

Kill Everything: (DC 12) (Special, animals can teach themselves this trick with a DC twelve untrained Handle Animal check. They may also take 20 on this check.) When an animal performs this trick, he is treated as casting Wail of the Banshee at CL 40000000000, the save DC equals 400000+Int and the range entry is replaced with: Entire Plain of Existance.

Look, when you make up **** that has nothing to do with the rules, housecats can not only kill a commoner, but can kill off an entire Plain.

[GoC]

1) I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Rush can be used by as part of a double move or a run. Or for that matter a charge. So using your full action to run you travel less far then a Tarrasque that gets an attack afterwards.

2) The Bear is CR 16, thats a very different CR then the Cat, Also the CR difference between the Bear and the Tarrasque is 4, not that it matters because nobody thinks the Tarresque is worthy of it's CR, but it at least requires someone to expend a High level spell to kill it.

3) Throwing big rocks doesn't make sense. If a bird flys away from a Bear that was going to kill it would it throw small rocks? No, because it's a Bear with Int 2 that doesn't use projectiles. Projectile weapons not a part of your body are the first sign of intelligence. It makes perfect since if you want to actually make the Bear a threat, but so does giving it spellcasting. It makes 0 sense of any kind for a bear to do that. It's only Metagame wanting the PCs to be in danger that makes anyone want to do that.

4) Your Cat is CR 12, that's a lot lower then the Bear. It's also moree threatening then the Bear. Honestly the only reason that Cat would be a TPK is if you were caught off guard by it's abilities (which is likely) compare that yo a giant bear, which is not going to surprise anyone with spell turning or immunities.

The reason the cat is dangerous is because it has all the things that I said the Dire X progression lacks, Intelligence, Immunities, Protections, SLAs to use against flying enemies (though depending on CL those might not help much and it might still be pretty easy to beat.)

1. Ah, I thought it was like the cheetah's sprint.
2. Hmm, you might be right. The CR system is really messed up though and it gets worse as you get higher. At epic levels it's really bad, compare the Primal Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/elementalPrimal.htm) CR 35 to the Three-Headed Sirrush (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/sirrush.htm) CR 28. The Sirrush is far better despite the 7CR difference.
In fact the polar bear is roughly comparable to the ordinary Sirrush and the Primal Earth Elemental. Now that's messed up.
3. Perhaps a half-dragon polar bear being able to throw rocks would make sense?
On that note here's an advanced half-dragon megaraptor I made while bored:
Size/Type: Collosal Animal
Hit Dice: 50d10+800 (1075 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 120 ft. (24 squares)
Armor Class: 30 (-4 size, +2 Dex, +22 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 28
Base Attack/Grapple: +37/+77
Attack: Talons +61 melee (8d6+24)
Full Attack: Talons +61 melee (8d6+24) and 2 foreclaws +59 melee (3d6+12) and bite +59 melee (6d6+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce, breath weapon(6d6 fire, 30ft cone)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, darkvision 60ft, immunity to sleep, paralysis and fire
Saves: Fort +40, Ref +29, Will +21
Abilities: Str 58, Dex 14, Con 36, Int 6, Wis 16, Cha 12
Skills: 200 skillpoints
Feats: Run, Toughness, Track, Improved Natural Attack(talon, foreclaws, bite), Power Attack, Multiattack, Snatch, Awesome Blow, Flyby attack, Wingover, Hover, Iron Will, Improved Toughness(x3)
Challenge Rating: 21

Is it closer to being a challenge for a party or will it fall the way of the polar bear?

4. Really? Throw this at your party and just before the surprise round starts tell them all it's abilities. I can garuntee even the powergaming munchkins will die.

[Collin152]

Oh you mean chimpanzees, widely recognized as the smartest non-human animal, the species that is so intelligent and human like that whether or not they posses the beginnings of human-like intelligence is regularly questioned?


Yet incidentally share the Polar Bear's INT 2?

[GoC]

Yet incidentally share the Polar Bear's INT 2?

Include all monkeys and squirrels on the list of creatures that throw things.

[Collin152]

Include all monkeys and squirrels on the list of creatures that throw things.

Whatever. Point is that the animals that can throws things are mechanically no smarter than the others. Hence, why not.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

@Collin So you mean on a scale with 1 Being the stupidest thing on the planet and 3 Being a Human level intelligence there wasn't much differentiation of Int for low Int critters? Big surprise.

Not to mention there are no Chimps in D&D, just "Apes" which, whatever they are, are all identical.

And of course, as we are apparently all in agreement, since things with noticeable hands can throw rocks about palm sized, surely a Bear living in the arctic is smart enough to break off parts of glaciers, pinch them between his paws, and then rear back on his hind legs to throw them at something that it isn't even clear is a threat to it. And it should probably have Power throw, after all, it only makes sense that when it does that it should be able to hit a dime sized, intelligent flying creature that is trying to dodge it.

@GDC

As I said, Half Dragon anything is going to be entirely different. And is exactly the type of thing I was recommending be used instead of something stupid like Super Dire Bear With A Side of Extra Dire.

As for your Cat, please, I could hand that to the party I am currently playing in (a not very optimized Party where I have to play down to the level of the rest of the party) and it would die in the first round (No Surprise round for you, or rather my character acts in it, since I am and Anthropomorphic Bat Druid with redonka-donk Spot-Listen, we have a pretty damn good Spot-Listen Ranger, and I regularly cast Blindsight and Greater Blindsight across the party)

To be fair to your Cat, I didn't notice earlier amongst it's abilities that it casts as a 5th level Cleric, but that still isn't much to save it.

Most of the party is constantly flying, how are you getting the concealment to Hide as you approach us in the air? What if I dispel your Airwalk leaving you pretty much useless to attack us? And what if I greater Blindsighted the party today?

Of course if I can keep you from killing either of the two flying Warmages before they get to go using myself wildshaped into whatever I need to distract you, my celestial animal companion, and the Ranger then they'll just kill you. Assay resistance, Sudden Maximized AoE damage spell #112, Assay Resistance Sudden Maximize AoE damage spell #113. Kitty=Dead.

And these are Warmages! Granted I spend lots of energy buffing them and tanking for them but still.

EDIT: Also, why Power Attack as a feat? Kitty has a BAB of +0 so he can't POwer Attack for anything.

[sonofzeal]

And Leadership? With a Caster Cohort? So now I am to believe a Giant Polar Bear that lays traps for the party and apparently attacks them the second he sees them (in a surprise round) also has a legion of followers that he for some reason never attacks. How about this, hios cohort is dead, so are all his followers, he attacked them. He also has a Leadership Score of -12 from killing all his followers.


@Collin So you mean on a scale with 1 Being the stupidest thing on the planet and 3 Being a Human level intelligence there wasn't much differentiation of Int for low Int critters? Big surprise.

Not to mention there are no Chimps in D&D, just "Apes" which, whatever they are, are all identical.

And of course, as we are apparently all in agreement, since things with noticeable hands can throw rocks about palm sized, surely a Bear living in the arctic is smart enough to break off parts of glaciers, pinch them between his paws, and then rear back on his hind legs to throw them at something that it isn't even clear is a threat to it. And it should probably have Power throw, after all, it only makes sense that when it does that it should be able to hit a dime sized, intelligent flying creature that is trying to dodge it.
So your point as I see it is {a} that the rules of D&D lack verisimilitude, and {b} anything that lacks verisimilitude should be.... banned from use? Is that it? You certainly seem to be implying that. Which, basically, tosses out 90% of D&D. Or does it come in degrees, and if so where do you draw the line?

Me, I prefer a more flexible approach. I can rationally conceive of a berzerker carving through a solid block of steel, even though his sword would undoubtably break in the process (if not his tendons and bones!). I can also conceive of a martial artist moving fluidly across the ceiling using the non-magical but difficult "Dance of the Spider" stance. I can conceive of a Colossal animal, even though the square-cube law would undoubtably spell its certain death. And I can conceive of a beast so great that it has transcended the limitations of lesser creatures while still retaining his essential beast-ness.

All that matters to me is, first that the options follow the mechanical rules of the game, and second that an explanation is given that rationally accounts for the various abilities. Of course the bear isn't leading those people, but it's entirely believable that he could have a cult dedicated to him. Make the cult equal in size and description to what the Leadership feat would provide, and you've matched the mechanics. Hooray, it's now both legal and logical! The fact that its logic doesn't match WotC's flavour for the feats is completely irrelevant and should never interfere with the game. You can find a much more detailed explanation of this play-style in JanusJones's Gospel (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=972694).

Oh, and you don't lose Leadership by killing followers, only Cohorts. Fine, fine, slap the Cruelty tag on, he now takes a -2 to Leadership checks. That's not about to slow him down any.

[Crow]

As I read this thread I can't help but feel sad about how boring a lot of people's games must be. Every party uses the same tactics, casts the same spells, and carries the same equipment. Any creature without a specific subset of abilities is automatically beneath their notice. Meanwhile every monster they do face is essentially a different play on the same monster. A lump of unformed clay whose only virtue is that it possesses a very specific set of abilities that make it a "viable" monster.

Ok, so I'm done with sarcasm now. Don't blow up, it was a joke.

I made a comment earlier about how the way things play out in an actual game are often different than how they seem to work out in the sterile environment of a theoretical discussion. In-game, I can see tthe damn bear being a viable threat. While it may not appear so when given intense scrutiny on an internet message board, most DM's who were to dump this thing on their players would see a pretty good little battle.

[Nebo_]

Improved Toughness(x3)


You can only take that once.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

So your point as I see it is {a} that the rules of D&D lack verisimilitude, and {b} anything that lacks verisimilitude should be.... banned from use? Is that it? You certainly seem to be implying that. Which, basically, tosses out 90% of D&D. Or does it come in degrees, and if so where do you draw the line?

Way to not even remotely address what I've actually been saying and instead straw man it up.

I said that Bears are not smart enough to throw damn rocks. And since there is no way to within the rules of the game, make them capable of throwing rocks, that Colossal Bear should not throw rocks. Since it 1) Isn't possible in the rules and 2) Doesn't make sense. So in fact a bear throwing rocks violates both facets you supposedly require.


And I can conceive of a beast so great that it has transcended the limitations of lesser creatures while still retaining his essential beast-ness.

So can I. That's what the Paragon Template is for. That's what the Monster of Legend template is for. That's not what HD are for. HD represent being more Bear like. Paragon represents (and better reflects mechanically) transcending his bestial nature. Monster of Legend represents (and better reflects mechanically) a beast so incredible that it can no longer be considered a true beast.


All that matters to me is, first that the options follow the mechanical rules of the game,

See what I said about rock throwing.


and second that an explanation is given that rationally accounts for the various abilities.

Also see what I said about rock throwing. Also I have a 3rd criteria: If one option reflects, both mechanically and in explanation, what I want represented better then another option, I use the better option.


but it's entirely believable that he could have a cult dedicated to him.

Right, and that Cult doesn't follow him around, because they'd be as dead as the cult that drank the punch. They stay far a ****ing way and show up to attack the PCs in vengeance for their dark god. Or the Res him. Whatever. But the Level 48 Epic Cleric that leads the cult sure as hell isn't going to be standing next to the bear as part of a CR 16 encounter.

Congratulations, you broke the game with Leadership, you are the first one ever. Also, note, that as an Epic Bear he could have taken Epic Leadership instead.

As a DM I don't let my PCs take Leadership and I don't have my NPCs waste a feat on it. If there is a cult, I make the cult. But the cult also doesn't follow him around, 1) because they'd die. 2) Because it's easy to TPK any party if you abuse Leadership. Just like it's easy to TPK a party with an encounter CR equal to their level if you abuse any of the ridiculous **** for that CR.

Like level 1. Four Kobold Wizards are almost guaranteed to kill two party members if they all prepare Power Word: Pain.

[Talic]

Way to not even remotely address what I've actually been saying and instead straw man it up.

I said that Bears are not smart enough to throw damn rocks. And since there is no way to within the rules of the game, make them capable of throwing rocks, that Colossal Bear should not throw rocks. Since it 1) Isn't possible in the rules and 2) Doesn't make sense. So in fact a bear throwing rocks violates both facets you supposedly require.

Bears still get feats by HD. Throw Anything feat, CWar. There's (1). You've got me on (2) though.

[sonofzeal]

Way to not even remotely address what I've actually been saying and instead straw man it up.

I said that Bears are not smart enough to throw damn rocks. And since there is no way to within the rules of the game, make them capable of throwing rocks, that Colossal Bear should not throw rocks. Since it 1) Isn't possible in the rules and 2) Doesn't make sense. So in fact a bear throwing rocks violates both facets you supposedly require.
1) Show me the rule that says they can't
2) A bear would have difficulty throwing things the way humans do, but have you ever seen a bear scooping fish out of the water? Picture that, but aiming the "fish" (ie a decent chunk of a mountain) at some target. It wouldn't be particularly accurate (reflected in D&D by its poor dex), but Brutal Throw makes as much context in that scenario as any other (which is not much, granted, but are you going to ban the whole feat for everyone?). And after the first couple times it sees massive devastation where the "fish" lands, even an Int 2 creature is perfectly capable of figuring out that this might be useful.



So can I. That's what the Paragon Template is for. That's what the Monster of Legend template is for. That's not what HD are for. HD represent being more Bear like. Paragon represents (and better reflects mechanically) transcending his bestial nature. Monster of Legend represents (and better reflects mechanically) a beast so incredible that it can no longer be considered a true beast.
Oh, and just because there's one way to do something, that means nothing else can ever do that? So no Rogue or Swordsage can ever act like a Ninja, because that's what the "Ninja" class is for? I fail to see your point - yes those options might make it mechanically stronger. I didn't build this as the best a bear can be, I built this purely as a thought exercise on what a 50 HD Colossal Polar Bear looks like, and part of that is assigning feats. So sue me if I come up with creative ways of doing that.



Also see what I said about rock throwing. Also I have a 3rd criteria: If one option reflects, both mechanically and in explanation, what I want represented better then another option, I use the better option.
So what's your better option again, within the parameters of the original challenge? Because if you posted one, I'm sure I must have missed it.




Right, and that Cult doesn't follow him around, because they'd be as dead as the cult that drank the punch. They stay far a ****ing way and show up to attack the PCs in vengeance for their dark god. Or the Res him. Whatever. But the Level 48 Epic Cleric that leads the cult sure as hell isn't going to be standing next to the bear as part of a CR 16 encounter.
Polar bears are one of the few earth predators that kill for sport, this is true. However, they are also known for coexisting peacefully with birds and other creatures that are not worth their effort. As long as the worshipers stayed out from under its feet, and kept it reasonably well-fed (with, presumably, the same stuff every other colossal creature eats to maintain their bulk), they should be in no major danger. Now, you can make the parallel argument that the bear is not likely to attack the PCs on sight either... but this is D&D, almost everything attacks the PCs on sight, it's just part of how these things work.


Congratulations, you broke the game with Leadership, you are the first one ever. Also, note, that as an Epic Bear he could have taken Epic Leadership instead.
No, I broke the game with Incarnum, but you complained too much so I provided a non-mystical alternative. And I specifically said I was avoiding Epic feats - do you really want to know what I can do with those?

The fact is that any creature with that many feats can easily find a way to be effective. Heck, you want a ranged attack, how does 100 fire damage in a 60' radius? You think the Will save is too low, how about a +25 to any saving throw as an immediate action? You want flight, how does Air Walk with no duration limit sound? Can't move fast enough, how about moving 86 feet forward as a swift action? And that's only scratching the surface of what ToB has to offer. Can a bear do these things? Well no... but neither can a human. This is a world of fantasy, where anything is possible. Who are you to limit that?

Honestly, I don't even know what this is about any more. We've shown pretty thoroughly that this creature easily has the potential to be at least as dangerous as most of the official WotC published monsters for that CR. And I personally think the idea is fun, and interesting, and colourful, and worth taking the time to follow through with the thought experiment on and see how far we can take it. I like the challenge of optimizing something counterintuitive, and (plausibility aside) I think the results in this case are rather cool. I don't know why you seem to have such a big problem with that.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

1) Show me the rule that says they can't

I was responding to the suggestion that one should teach the bear the "Throw Rock" trick. Which of course doesn't exist. If a rule doesn't exist to allow it to throw rocks then just pretending there is a rule where their isn't is against the rules.


2) A bear would have difficulty throwing things the way humans do, but have you ever seen a bear scooping fish out of the water? Picture that, but aiming the "fish" (ie a decent chunk of a mountain) at some target. It wouldn't be particularly accurate (reflected in D&D by its poor dex), but Brutal Throw makes as much context in that scenario as any other (which is not much, granted, but are you going to ban the whole feat for everyone?). And after the first couple times it sees massive devastation where the "fish" lands, even an Int 2 creature is perfectly capable of figuring out that this might be useful.

So a Bear, one of an entirely different species then the ones that actually throw fish, dug deep into his genetic code, and found the idea of scooping at a moving object in the water, he then extrapolated to scooping non-moving, non-food, mountains that are clearly very solid and not food into the air to aim at tiny gnats he can barely see as a defense mechanism?

So whenever the bear is attacked, he treats the nearest non-living matter as food and starts looking for food inside of mountains instead of attacking the things attacking him or running away from pain?

And yes, that is impossible, because of this part, "it sees massive devastation where the "fish" lands" It doesn't even know what "massive devastation" is. It would assume that it looked like that before the "fish" (you know the one that never attracted his attention in the first place because it never moved.)

You aren't explaining likely scenarios, you are designing complex justifications that far exceed the worst powergamer/munchkin explanations of how their characters came to be and you are only doing it to justify making a mechanically dangerous Bear that completely violates the spirit of the Dire Bear.


Oh, and just because there's one way to do something, that means nothing else can ever do that? So no Rogue or Swordsage can ever act like a Ninja, because that's what the "Ninja" class is for? I fail to see your point - yes those options might make it mechanically stronger. I didn't build this as the best a bear can be, I built this purely as a thought exercise on what a 50 HD Colossal Polar Bear looks like, and part of that is assigning feats. So sue me if I come up with creative ways of doing that.

No, if there is one good way to do something and one bad way you don't do the good one.


So what's your better option again, within the parameters of the original challenge? Because if you posted one, I'm sure I must have missed it.

THERE IS NO ORIGINAL CHALLENGE.

The OP asked if there was a template to make Dire Dire Dire Bears. I said that I didn't think there was because what "Dire" actually does to a bear isn't really that interesting past 10th level and that instead he should perhaps look for more interesting abilities to give to his encounters.

At this point you decided to contradict me (or someone else with the same tone and avatar) and say that Bear X had stats Y. At which point I mentioned the 500 ways that stats Y would never come up, and furthermore did not make either a fun or interesting encounter.

Then you decided to pull every crazy feat in the damn universe out of a hat and start applying them to the Bear in ways that clearly have nothing to do with making a Dire Bear and attempted to use this to prove that a Dire Dire Dire Dire, Extra Dire Bear with a Side of Dire is an interesting encounter. This despite that you have never actually mentioned the type of creature the original poster asked about, but instead started shopping at Magical R Us in some attempt to prove that Dire animals are a challenge.


Polar bears are one of the few earth predators that kill for sport, this is true. However, they are also known for coexisting peacefully with birds and other creatures that are not worth their effort. As long as the worshipers stayed out from under its feet, and kept it reasonably well-fed (with, presumably, the same stuff every other colossal creature eats to maintain their bulk), they should be in no major danger. Now, you can make the parallel argument that the bear is not likely to attack the PCs on sight either... but this is D&D, almost everything attacks the PCs on sight, it's just part of how these things work.

Why do you even play D&D if that is your attitude.


No, I broke the game with Incarnum, but you complained too much so I provided a non-mystical alternative. And I specifically said I was avoiding Epic feats - do you really want to know what I can do with those?

No, you broke the game with seven hundred things that any level 50 Commoner could break the game with. And nobody ever said you couldn't. In fact we all suggested our own ways of doing the same thing. I also pointed out that, "That is not fun." The fact that you can use the number of feats and the nature of the feats you choose as a 50HD creature does not make Dire Animals any more interesting then they were before. Because anything you create using obscure feat driven Magic systems is not going to be a Dire creature. Just as if you broke the game bye giving it WBL of a level 50 character and showing that would be able to beat the party.


I don't know why you seem to have such a big problem with that.

I have a big problem with people coming into a thread telling me how wrong I am and how fun Dire encounters are because of splatbook X has it's entire magic system obtainable through feats, Splatbook Y also does, Leadership can give you a level 48 Cleric as a CR 16 Encounter, WBL is whatever.

I also have a problem with people shoving me into a pile of manure and telling me how nice they are for letting me swim in their pool. (To clarify so there are no understandings, they aren't letting me swim in their pool afterward, they think the manure is their pool.)

This is because I have a problem with people calling things what they aren't.

If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a cow have?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Dire animals follow very rough guidelines at best. They are essentially just made bigger and badder by increasing size/HD and adding seemingly fitting abilities.

One thing that always puzzled me is why the Dire Rat had its intelligence reduced from 2 to 1.

Such injustice was never done to any of the other animals.


If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a cow have?

Is that a normal cow, a Dire Cow, a cow with advanced HD, a cow with the many-tailed template or a hamburger?

[GoC]

As I said, Half Dragon anything is going to be entirely different. And is exactly the type of thing I was recommending be used instead of something stupid like Super Dire Bear With A Side of Extra Dire.

As for your Cat, please, I could hand that to the party I am currently playing in (a not very optimized Party where I have to play down to the level of the rest of the party) and it would die in the first round (No Surprise round for you, or rather my character acts in it, since I am and Anthropomorphic Bat Druid with redonka-donk Spot-Listen, we have a pretty damn good Spot-Listen Ranger, and I regularly cast Blindsight and Greater Blindsight across the party)

To be fair to your Cat, I didn't notice earlier amongst it's abilities that it casts as a 5th level Cleric, but that still isn't much to save it.

Most of the party is constantly flying, how are you getting the concealment to Hide as you approach us in the air? What if I dispel your Airwalk leaving you pretty much useless to attack us? And what if I greater Blindsighted the party today?

Of course if I can keep you from killing either of the two flying Warmages before they get to go using myself wildshaped into whatever I need to distract you, my celestial animal companion, and the Ranger then they'll just kill you. Assay resistance, Sudden Maximized AoE damage spell #112, Assay Resistance Sudden Maximize AoE damage spell #113. Kitty=Dead.

And these are Warmages! Granted I spend lots of energy buffing them and tanking for them but still.

EDIT: Also, why Power Attack as a feat? Kitty has a BAB of +0 so he can't POwer Attack for anything.
You've got a party quite a bit more optimized than the norm. What level is your party? Because I honestly don't think a 12th level character can survive a pounce attack like that.

[Reaper_Monkey]

My god! I think that the shear length and breadth of this thread should just allow this bear to get legendary status and therefore be able to eat anyone and anything it so chooses to!

I mean, really, this is going on a lot isn't it? The original question was for a dire template (as to my knowledge, no there isn't one, and I think that became clear after a very small amount of replies).

The giant polar bear argument is simply saying, that in some situations, it could be scary (from it landing on your head after taking a belly flop off the edge of a glacier or just in RP terms of the players being gob-smacked by seeing it).... Does it really matter how powerful or flawed it can be/is?


Although, that being said, its oh so very hard not to be overly tempted to post on something where the main topic is a giant bear.... so ill add my two-penny... which is simply...

Its winter, very far north, group end up in a very hilly snow covered area... get attacked by something pathetic at range. Wait for players to shoot anything back at it, and let either it dying, or a missed shot.... WAKE UP THE LEGENDARY POLAR BEAR! that was happily hibernating under the snow (as its too big to find a cave... and has lots of fur so doesn't mind much) at which point it goes into a rage (actually or RP'd) and flattens someone with a massive paw. If you really want to be mean, it could actually be a plain the adventures are on, and all the hills are bears, and they ALL wake up!

Logical, although stupid... very fitting for the bear, as yes, it can exist, but no its never going to find a place as anything other than a cool story the players retell years later of that time "the whole ground shook and each snowy hill got up, shook itself off, and roared at us... we couldn't cast fly quick enough!"

I think I might throw this into one of my adventures on of these days, just for the expression on my players faces when they realise what I've done! =D

Ill think of a cool composite name between Chosen_of_Vecna and sonofzeal to call it (or maybe a leader/the legendary version) as they spawned such an epic creature.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

You've got a party quite a bit more optimized than the norm. What level is your party? Because I honestly don't think a 12th level character can survive a pounce attack like that.

We have two Warmages, a Ranger, a TWF Rogue, and me. That is decicedly unoptimized. I make up for it as much as I can by arranging for the rogue to always get SA, and defensive buffing everyone as much as possible, and making sure that I am the subject of most attacks.

We are currently level 9, and I could barely survive the Full attack if it rolled average (though I'd love know what is adding the damage since as I sad you can't power attack for anything) My AC could survive it if the cat rolled Min. (I'm assuming all strikes hit, no crits for simplicity.)

By level twelve I should be just fine tanking it for two rounds (myself and my companion together) which since it is quite possible that it won't get a surprise round, would result in it's death.

Of course, all I really need to beat it on my own is to take the feat that allows 5ft steps instead of AoOs. It would never be able to make an attack role against me and I'd make one AoO a round, plus my full attack. Eventually I'd roll enough consecutive 20s to beat it.

[Hunter Noventa]

Not completely relevent but uhhh...I've got this joke my gaming group has about Direness.

"And if you don't, the consequences will be dire!"
"What? They'll have three extra hit dice and a rend attack?"

[Keld Denar]

I like the idea of adding Fiendish to the above mentioned 50 HD bear. Fiendish adds a host of minor special abilities and a couple of SLAs that are dependant on HD for CL. One of the SLAs that a creature with more than ~15 HD can get is blasphemy. Suddenly, big bad diabolical looking polar bear lets out a Blasphemeous Roar (TM) and everything that isn't evil that hears it with less than 40 HD (yup, all PCs too) die, no save. It won't even have trouble piecing SR, since it has 50 FREAKIN HD. Isn't it funny how some mechanics scale?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Isn't it funny how some mechanics scale?

We've already established (not in this thread, just a well known thing) that the CR system is borked.

[GoC]

We are currently level 9, and I could barely survive the Full attack if it rolled average (though I'd love know what is adding the damage since as I sad you can't power attack for anything) My AC could survive it if the cat rolled Min. (I'm assuming all strikes hit, no crits for simplicity.)

By level twelve I should be just fine tanking it for two rounds (myself and my companion together) which since it is quite possible that it won't get a surprise round, would result in it's death.
The Paragon template adds +20 to all damage rolls. So your 9th level druid has more than 88 hitpoints. That means his Con is 22 or higher. Did you roll two 18s, put one in con and then got a +4 item? And your AC is over 42?

You were right about Power Attack. I should update it.


Of course, all I really need to beat it on my own is to take the feat that allows 5ft steps instead of AoOs. It would never be able to make an attack role against me and I'd make one AoO a round, plus my full attack. Eventually I'd roll enough consecutive 20s to beat it.
Why couldn't it attack you? Do you have combat reflexes and 46 Dex (needed to continuosly evade it) as well?
You could probably beat this thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74953) too couldn't you?:smallannoyed:

[Zocelot]

How about advancing a giant in HD to make it gargatuan, then adding the were-uberbear template to it?

This worked for me using a Dusk Giant (Heroes of Horror) with a strength score of 64 (at 34 HD and a CR of 18) and a Cachalot advanced to 36 HD (+34 strength bonus the the Dusk Giant, among other benefits. This came at a +5 to CR). To summarize, the creature was colossal, with a strength of 98, 70HD and a CR of 23. It also had impressive constitution.
Note: I'm not using this as an example of how the CR system is ****, just describing an fearsome creature statwise.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

The Paragon template adds +20 to all damage rolls.

I figured it was something like that, just didn't know for sure if you were power attacking for one or something too. I could have used a little more wiggle room.


So your 9th level druid has more than 88 hitpoints. That means his Con is 22 or higher. Did you roll two 18s, put one in con and then got a +4 item?

Actually, it means I rolled higher then average on HP rolls, have a Con of 16, Improved Toughness, and a +2 Bonus =95 HP.


And your AC is over 42?

You misunderstand. I assumed all attacks (of the kitty's) hit and that none of them crit. IE every roll of the D20 was between 2-19, because I didn't want to do Crit math, and I figured it probably come out about the same anyway (since he confirms all his roles and crit succeeds as often as he crit fails).


Why couldn't it attack you? Do you have combat reflexes and 46 Dex (needed to continuosly evade it) as well?

I do have Combat Reflexes. I made a mistake though, he would be able to make a single claw attack each round after I had made my 5+ Evasive steps (thus negating any charge action). Of course the first time he tries to charge he won't be able to hit me.

Now I just need to find a form with Fast Healing 30, then we can fight to a nigh infinite standstill that either one of us could escape from at will.


You could probably beat this thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74953) too couldn't you?:smallannoyed:

Maybe at it's CR? I don't know, I never bother with Epic rules.

[GoC]

Now I just need to find a form with Fast Healing 30, then we can fight to a nigh infinite standstill that either one of us could escape from at will.
Heh, that would be fun to watch.


Maybe at it's CR? I don't know, I never bother with Epic rules.
I still haven't figured out it's CR. Any help with that?

Now that I think about it: What if the kitten tumbles to avoid your AoO? It's more intelligent than you are and it auto-succeeds on it's tumble checks even without any ranks in the skill.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Now that I think about it: What if the kitten tumbles to avoid your AoO? It's more intelligent than you are and it auto-succeeds on it's tumble checks even without any ranks in the skill.

Can it tumble as part of a charge? If not then we are right back where we started. As long as I start 10ft away it can't charge me, but it can get off one single attack.

Or maybe I could add a couple Martial Studies and a Martial Stance, though I doubt I could get them with my current build before level 12.