sonofzeal
2008-03-15, 09:59 PM
So, I've been involved in an ongoing episodic D&D campaign. Each episode is run by a different DM over the course of a couple months. We've been running on D**** (names changed to protect the innocent), which provides a nice, if minimalistic, flash chat interface from which to run our games. We had just finished one episode and were beginning another under a friend of mine who had never DM'd before, and the guy who owns the site and a couple of his buddies decided to join the game. Now, our group was a reasonably conservative group, and the were firm adhearants to an "anything goes" style of roleplaying, but the DM was friends with them and let them in. In the first scene of the game, the guy who owns the site brought out his cohorts, a troupe of bikini-clad eight-year-old girls, who proceeded to... well, no clothes were removed, but it was worse than any nightclubs I know of. Two of the players "left the table" as it were and one, who has always been deeply disturbed by explicit sexuality in the context of kids, dumped her browser. I left too in protest too at this point. After being assured the guy had left I returned with the traumatized one ("H****" farther down), only to be yelled at as intolerant by his two friends who were still there, one of whom quit in protest over our "intolerance".
After the dust had settled, I contacted the guy who runs the site (same guy who caused the scene, remember). Here's our conversation.
.
.
.
N**** says:
Maybe not everyone wants a "clean" game by your definition
Zeal says:
Of course, and there is plenty of room for games of all colours and descriptions.
N**** says:
And you know what, I'm going to be blantantly ****ing honest here: Your rules lawyering bull**** does far, far, far more to ruin the fun of the game for me, and many others
Zeal says:
I have no clue what you're talking about there.
Zeal says:
When have I impeded your enjoyment of the game?
N**** says:
I'm sure you don't
N**** says:
Every single time you have played
N**** says:
Why do you think my game was "full"?
N**** says:
It wasn't too full for the rest of [a forum]
Zeal says:
We played... what, two sessions together before that?
Zeal says:
What did I do in those two sessions that was so horrible?
Zeal says:
When did I let strict adherance to the rules interfere with having fun?
N**** says:
You essentially destroyed them.
N**** says:
But I
N**** says:
m'm not interested with discussing this with you
Zeal says:
No, please, if I made it not fun for you I'd like to know.
N**** says:
I will note that the old [a forum] DND was canned almost immediately after those two sessions that you played
Zeal says:
I noticed.
Zeal says:
I also noticed they were falling appart for reasons that had nothing to do with me.
Zeal says:
If I did anything specifically to ruin them, I do apologize and I would like to know so I can avoid it in the future.
N**** says:
But honestly, I was willing to play with you, had you been willing to play with R*** & ME
Zeal says:
I'm willing to play with you, however I am very close to H**** who, I know from experience, is deeply disturbed by sexual content involving children.
Zeal says:
You did not know that, and I'm not angry.
Zeal says:
However, please understand that I had to make it absolutely clear that I will not tolerate you having YOUR fun at the cost of making HER an emotional wreck.
N**** says:
Well ****
N**** says:
Listen, like I said earlier, I'm not interested in having this fight
Zeal says:
I am completely willing to play with R*** and you - as long as you respect our enjoyment of the game, I'll respect your enjoyment.
Zeal says:
Does that sound fair?
N**** says:
I stepped out of the previous campaign because I didn't want to cause **** with you and H****, but I was platying this one because I enjoy playing with C***** and I wanted to participate in her game
N**** says:
What C***** said in the thread is exactly what I think
Zeal says:
I still want to know why we should be banned for trying to run a single clean campaign, when you have the entire rest of the site to run whatever else you want.
N**** says:
You're not going to be banned
N**** says:
But your rules couldn't be enforced on the site
N**** says:
IE, no one would boot people from your game for breaking your rules
N**** says:
But we wouldn't ban you
N**** says:
We don't ban people on D****, period
Zeal says:
I agree we can't boot people, but we can enforce them by refusing to play with the person, can't we?
N**** says:
No, technically you can't.
N**** says:
One of our rules is that excvlusionary behavior and active ignores are prohibitted
Zeal says:
We can't simply stop playing until they go away?
N**** says:
Stop playing until who goes away? The two people who own the site you're playing on?
Zeal says:
Anybody who knowingly violates the group's standard of decency.
Zeal says:
Again, this doesn't apply to what happened today, because we HAD no official standard of decency.
N**** says:
But in reality, who else would violate your "standard of decency"?
N**** says:
These are rules that are being constructed to explicitly prohibt R*** and I from playing in a game on our own site
Zeal says:
I truely believe that you and your friends are capable of conforming to those rules.
Zeal says:
You are all veteran roleplayers, and I am quite certain you have or could make characters that would stay within those bounds, and at that time I would welcome you with open arms into our party.
N**** says:
In other peoples homes, maybe, but I don't follow Jewish diety laws in my own kitchen, even if I might at the house of an orthodox friend
Zeal says:
If your orthodox friend visited, would you serve them pork?
N**** says:
If they visited on barbecue night.
Zeal says:
And you wouldn't set aside a single beef meal for them?
N**** says:
Sure I would, but I wouldn't expect them to think that my family would refrain from pork too
Zeal says:
That's all I'm asking here - that you allow us one space, on a temporary basis, where our values and feelings are not trampled over.
Zeal says:
Like it or not, D&D is a shared experience, and as such you, I, and everyone else should try their utmost to acknowledge the feelings and boundaries of those present.
N**** says:
You act as if the feeling of you and H**** are somehow universal
N**** says:
And that your ability to enjoy the game should be everyone's primary concern, regardless of whether or not it handicaps the ability of at least four other players to enjoy the game
Zeal says:
However neither of us were the first to protest, and fully half of the people present claimed to be seriously bothered by what was going on.
N**** says:
Fully half? I counted three.
N**** says:
You, H****, and W***
Zeal says:
C****** commented later, after you left.
N**** says:
And W*** later came back and said he didn't really care so much
Zeal says:
So keeping within a PG limit on sexuality "handicaps" your ability to enjoy the game?
Zeal says:
You seriously cannot have fun unless children are gyrating their hips and rubbing against stuff?
N**** says:
Yes, it does. But how was that not PG? R*** just pointed out that there was a very similar scene in the PG-13 family comedy Little Miss Sunshine
Zeal says:
I haven't seen, so I can't comment, but I somehow doubt that there was pole-dancing involved.
N**** says:
But in fact there was
Zeal says:
In which case H**** would have had to leave the theatre there, too.
Zeal says:
Look, I sincerely hope we can find common ground here, where both of us can play in a way that is enjoyable to everyone.
Zeal says:
I'm willing to make compromizes on that front, play rules-light and go with the flow rather than enforcing the Rules As Written.
N**** says:
I'm not looking for common ground. It looks like you don't have a game anyway, since C***** has already said she wasn't DMing anymore
Zeal says:
All I ask is that you extend us the same courtesy.
Zeal says:
We still have players, we still have people willing to DM, [a forum] D&D will likely continue in some form or another.
N**** says:
Let it then
Zeal says:
If I DM, I will be willing to let ANYBODY play - you, R***, B******, whoever - as long as they are willing to give common courtesy and respect everyone's feelings.
Zeal says:
Is that acceptable to you?
N**** says:
If you DM, that won't be an issue, because I don't expect any of the above to play
N**** says:
We were only playing because C***** was DMing and we expected her to be fair and reasonable (and she was)
Zeal says:
The choice to not play is yours as well.
N**** says:
Yes, well, of course it is
N**** says:
It's ironic, since C***** and I started [a forum] DND
Zeal says:
And you're welcome to continue playing or even running, as long as you don't trample over people's feelings in the process.
N**** says:
Woah, woah, hold up. At what point do you make the rules for [a forum] DnD.
Zeal says:
Oh, I can't make rules, but I can propose them, and I can express unwelcome, and I can walk out and take others with me.
N**** says:
Sure, do that
Zeal says:
Done.
So yeah, we're now looking for a good place to host D&D games online. Rollers are not necessary, but the ability to log in as your character and NPCs without a big registration process is a major plus. Have any suggestions?
After the dust had settled, I contacted the guy who runs the site (same guy who caused the scene, remember). Here's our conversation.
.
.
.
N**** says:
Maybe not everyone wants a "clean" game by your definition
Zeal says:
Of course, and there is plenty of room for games of all colours and descriptions.
N**** says:
And you know what, I'm going to be blantantly ****ing honest here: Your rules lawyering bull**** does far, far, far more to ruin the fun of the game for me, and many others
Zeal says:
I have no clue what you're talking about there.
Zeal says:
When have I impeded your enjoyment of the game?
N**** says:
I'm sure you don't
N**** says:
Every single time you have played
N**** says:
Why do you think my game was "full"?
N**** says:
It wasn't too full for the rest of [a forum]
Zeal says:
We played... what, two sessions together before that?
Zeal says:
What did I do in those two sessions that was so horrible?
Zeal says:
When did I let strict adherance to the rules interfere with having fun?
N**** says:
You essentially destroyed them.
N**** says:
But I
N**** says:
m'm not interested with discussing this with you
Zeal says:
No, please, if I made it not fun for you I'd like to know.
N**** says:
I will note that the old [a forum] DND was canned almost immediately after those two sessions that you played
Zeal says:
I noticed.
Zeal says:
I also noticed they were falling appart for reasons that had nothing to do with me.
Zeal says:
If I did anything specifically to ruin them, I do apologize and I would like to know so I can avoid it in the future.
N**** says:
But honestly, I was willing to play with you, had you been willing to play with R*** & ME
Zeal says:
I'm willing to play with you, however I am very close to H**** who, I know from experience, is deeply disturbed by sexual content involving children.
Zeal says:
You did not know that, and I'm not angry.
Zeal says:
However, please understand that I had to make it absolutely clear that I will not tolerate you having YOUR fun at the cost of making HER an emotional wreck.
N**** says:
Well ****
N**** says:
Listen, like I said earlier, I'm not interested in having this fight
Zeal says:
I am completely willing to play with R*** and you - as long as you respect our enjoyment of the game, I'll respect your enjoyment.
Zeal says:
Does that sound fair?
N**** says:
I stepped out of the previous campaign because I didn't want to cause **** with you and H****, but I was platying this one because I enjoy playing with C***** and I wanted to participate in her game
N**** says:
What C***** said in the thread is exactly what I think
Zeal says:
I still want to know why we should be banned for trying to run a single clean campaign, when you have the entire rest of the site to run whatever else you want.
N**** says:
You're not going to be banned
N**** says:
But your rules couldn't be enforced on the site
N**** says:
IE, no one would boot people from your game for breaking your rules
N**** says:
But we wouldn't ban you
N**** says:
We don't ban people on D****, period
Zeal says:
I agree we can't boot people, but we can enforce them by refusing to play with the person, can't we?
N**** says:
No, technically you can't.
N**** says:
One of our rules is that excvlusionary behavior and active ignores are prohibitted
Zeal says:
We can't simply stop playing until they go away?
N**** says:
Stop playing until who goes away? The two people who own the site you're playing on?
Zeal says:
Anybody who knowingly violates the group's standard of decency.
Zeal says:
Again, this doesn't apply to what happened today, because we HAD no official standard of decency.
N**** says:
But in reality, who else would violate your "standard of decency"?
N**** says:
These are rules that are being constructed to explicitly prohibt R*** and I from playing in a game on our own site
Zeal says:
I truely believe that you and your friends are capable of conforming to those rules.
Zeal says:
You are all veteran roleplayers, and I am quite certain you have or could make characters that would stay within those bounds, and at that time I would welcome you with open arms into our party.
N**** says:
In other peoples homes, maybe, but I don't follow Jewish diety laws in my own kitchen, even if I might at the house of an orthodox friend
Zeal says:
If your orthodox friend visited, would you serve them pork?
N**** says:
If they visited on barbecue night.
Zeal says:
And you wouldn't set aside a single beef meal for them?
N**** says:
Sure I would, but I wouldn't expect them to think that my family would refrain from pork too
Zeal says:
That's all I'm asking here - that you allow us one space, on a temporary basis, where our values and feelings are not trampled over.
Zeal says:
Like it or not, D&D is a shared experience, and as such you, I, and everyone else should try their utmost to acknowledge the feelings and boundaries of those present.
N**** says:
You act as if the feeling of you and H**** are somehow universal
N**** says:
And that your ability to enjoy the game should be everyone's primary concern, regardless of whether or not it handicaps the ability of at least four other players to enjoy the game
Zeal says:
However neither of us were the first to protest, and fully half of the people present claimed to be seriously bothered by what was going on.
N**** says:
Fully half? I counted three.
N**** says:
You, H****, and W***
Zeal says:
C****** commented later, after you left.
N**** says:
And W*** later came back and said he didn't really care so much
Zeal says:
So keeping within a PG limit on sexuality "handicaps" your ability to enjoy the game?
Zeal says:
You seriously cannot have fun unless children are gyrating their hips and rubbing against stuff?
N**** says:
Yes, it does. But how was that not PG? R*** just pointed out that there was a very similar scene in the PG-13 family comedy Little Miss Sunshine
Zeal says:
I haven't seen, so I can't comment, but I somehow doubt that there was pole-dancing involved.
N**** says:
But in fact there was
Zeal says:
In which case H**** would have had to leave the theatre there, too.
Zeal says:
Look, I sincerely hope we can find common ground here, where both of us can play in a way that is enjoyable to everyone.
Zeal says:
I'm willing to make compromizes on that front, play rules-light and go with the flow rather than enforcing the Rules As Written.
N**** says:
I'm not looking for common ground. It looks like you don't have a game anyway, since C***** has already said she wasn't DMing anymore
Zeal says:
All I ask is that you extend us the same courtesy.
Zeal says:
We still have players, we still have people willing to DM, [a forum] D&D will likely continue in some form or another.
N**** says:
Let it then
Zeal says:
If I DM, I will be willing to let ANYBODY play - you, R***, B******, whoever - as long as they are willing to give common courtesy and respect everyone's feelings.
Zeal says:
Is that acceptable to you?
N**** says:
If you DM, that won't be an issue, because I don't expect any of the above to play
N**** says:
We were only playing because C***** was DMing and we expected her to be fair and reasonable (and she was)
Zeal says:
The choice to not play is yours as well.
N**** says:
Yes, well, of course it is
N**** says:
It's ironic, since C***** and I started [a forum] DND
Zeal says:
And you're welcome to continue playing or even running, as long as you don't trample over people's feelings in the process.
N**** says:
Woah, woah, hold up. At what point do you make the rules for [a forum] DnD.
Zeal says:
Oh, I can't make rules, but I can propose them, and I can express unwelcome, and I can walk out and take others with me.
N**** says:
Sure, do that
Zeal says:
Done.
So yeah, we're now looking for a good place to host D&D games online. Rollers are not necessary, but the ability to log in as your character and NPCs without a big registration process is a major plus. Have any suggestions?