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Demons_eye
2008-03-16, 02:29 AM
OK, I got 2 people I am dming for. Some times 3 and we hope to get more later. Right now one has a level 7 paladin and the others a level 3 rouge/4 sorwd sage. I was planing to have them fight a cr 10 and I wanted to know if that was too much? (last dm could not understand the cr and that got us in to BIG fights so I wanted to get this DOWN!)

AslanCross
2008-03-16, 02:35 AM
Challenge Rating is supposed to represent appropriate encounters for a four-person party, with a Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard. For two ECL 7 characters, a CR 10 monster is definitely too much if you go by the book.

You can use higher-than-appropriate monsters if you mitigate the encounter somewhat by making the monster run away at a certain level of HP, or giving the players an edge using the environment, et al.

Also, if you have more than four PCs, they theoretically can handle fights above their CR. My group has been able to handle EL 10 fights at Lv 5, although of course this was a 9th level hobgoblin fighter and a couple of lackeys.

I wouldn't have made them fight a CR 10 Hydra (which they wouldn't be able to deal enough damage to to kill quickly) or a Rakshasa (which would be practically immune to everything they throw at it).

Demons_eye
2008-03-16, 02:38 AM
I was thinking of this huant quest but that seems a little hight for them not you tell me this.

so if they had 4 people level 7 the cr 7 would be a fair fight?

tyckspoon
2008-03-16, 02:40 AM
Theoretically, yes. There are situations and monsters that just don't work with the CR system, but when it's working properly a party of 4 level 7 characters should get a reasonably draining but not excessively dangerous fight from a CR 7 monster.

Demons_eye
2008-03-16, 02:41 AM
So my group of 2 people level 7 would fight CR's 3-4 for a fair fight?

sonofzeal
2008-03-16, 02:51 AM
So my group of 2 people level 7 would fight CR's 3-4 for a fair fight?
CR 5 would be a "fair" fight for them, but I can guarantee you'll need to use some digression. Start with a CR 5 fight, see how that goes; if it's too easy, try a pair of CR 4's or a CR 6; if it's still too easy keep working your way up until things get rough. Remember that CR is an integer but actual power is much more widely varied, and the smaller a party is the less able it is to deal with certain elements.

For example, both your characters are primarily melee. They'll do very well against a couple ogres, maybe not quite as well against a whole horde of orcs because the Swordsage starts running out of maneuvers, and they'll be in for serious pain against things that fly or have big DR. If it tailors to their strength, you can increase the CR by 1 if not 2; if it matches their weakness, lower it by 1 or 2, or provide some way of covering that weakness (handy escape lanes work).

koldstare
2008-03-16, 02:55 AM
It isn't entirely linear always but you have two primary fighters with no cleric or wizard support... if you threw a very young or even wyrmling red dragon against them (CR 5 and 4 respectively) they would most likely get pwned, however if you gave them a yuan-ti halfblood or a mimic (also CR 5 and 4 respectively) they would stand a chance to do well most of the time CR is circumstantial and i usually wing it if i know the party well enough

Demons_eye
2008-03-16, 02:55 AM
Well the sword sage worries me. He can sneak attack for I think 6d6 and gets at lest 9 damge from the start. Min:15 Max: 45? and this makes me think ifs its ok to let ToB in.

koldstare
2008-03-16, 03:00 AM
I have never been to reliant on Sneak Attack, to many things are immune to it namely undead, oozes and their ilk.

tyckspoon
2008-03-16, 03:00 AM
Well the sword sage worries me. He can sneak attack for I think 6d6 and gets at lest 9 damge from the start. Min:15 Max: 45? and this makes me think ifs its ok to let ToB in.

Should be 4d6.. 3 levels of Rogue is +2d6 sneak dice, and then it sounds like he's using Assassin's Stance, which is another 2d6. Which happens to total up to exactly as much Sneak Attack as he would have if he'd gone straight rogue, and he'll lose the extra dice from the stance if he ever wants to go into a different stance.

sonofzeal
2008-03-16, 03:46 AM
Well the sword sage worries me. He can sneak attack for I think 6d6 and gets at lest 9 damge from the start. Min:15 Max: 45? and this makes me think ifs its ok to let ToB in.
ToB is quite powerful, that is known and accepted. The standard rankings (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968062) put them between 6.55 and 6.88 out of ten, which is well above average and considerably above any other melee class. Rogues, in comparison, are at 5.62 and Paladins are at 4.22. On the other hand, Wizards are way up at 9.67, so the high-6's is not too excessive.

The point I'm trying to make is - you should expect the ToB melee character to outperform the non-ToB melee characters, but that's less a problem with ToB and more a problem with non-ToB melee mostly stinking in comparison with what an equal-level mage can pull off, at least in mid-high levels.

If your Paladin feels useless, encourage him to try a Cleric (9.16) instead, which can probably capture his current character concept and be much more mechanically effective. Banning content because other players can't keep up should only be a last resort in the truly ludicrous cases (like Assay Spell Resistance, imo).