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Weiser_Cain
2008-03-16, 03:09 PM
Is there a feat or prc that can give a sorcerer more known spells. Also do you continue learning new spells into epic?

LibraryOgre
2008-03-16, 03:20 PM
There is a Feat, called Extra Spell, which gives you one additional spell of the level below the highest you can cast.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-16, 03:21 PM
Yes - most notably, there's the Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium (adds to spells known at each spell level, but removes a class of spells from your class list). For extra spells, I highly recommend Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane); you'll need Arcane Preparation, Cooperative Metamagic, and one other feat to enter the PrC - it doesn't actually add to spells known, but permits you to call and cast spells (subject to a set of limitations - generally, this is effectively a 1/day ability) that you don't actually know.

As for gaining spells in Epic? Sorry, not by default. There's some feats for it, though.

Squash Monster
2008-03-16, 03:30 PM
The prestige class "sand shaper" grants a boatload of spells known, many of them at lower levels.

SofS
2008-03-16, 03:30 PM
If Sandstorm is allowed, you can get a bunch of desert-themed spells known with the Sandshaper PrC. If the Book of Exalted Deeds is allowed, you can get a couple of regular spells known, an expanded spell list, and the ability to cast sanctified spells as spells known with the Exalted Arcanist PrC.

BRC
2008-03-16, 03:47 PM
At Epic Level take Wand Mastery, then buy wands with one charge left of the spells you want.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-16, 03:53 PM
At Epic Level take Wand Mastery, then buy wands with one charge left of the spells you want.
Master Staff is a bit better for that - because they contain more spells, and aren't limited to 4th level or lower.

Douglas
2008-03-16, 04:10 PM
Master Staff is a bit better for that - because they contain more spells, and aren't limited to 4th level or lower.
Plus you get your own caster level and save DC rather than the absolute minimum.

If Dragon Magazine material is allowed in your game, there is an item called a Knowstone that adds to your spells known. It costs the same as a Pearl of Power for the spell's level, doesn't take a slot, and requires a 24 hour attunement period. You can have as many of them as you can afford.

If Eberron material is allowed, the Drake Helm item from the Eberron Explorer's Handbook can add up to four spells known. The spells are actually stored in separate dragonshards, which can be removed or attached with a single move action each and no attunement period is required, so you can switch out one spell known with two move actions. It takes your head slot, though, and is more expensive than Knowstones and can't do more than four spells at once.

holywhippet
2008-03-16, 04:13 PM
Depending on how nice/nasty your DM is feeling, you could try to make use of a wish spell to get new spells.

Ryuuk
2008-03-16, 04:18 PM
There's the Raptoran Sorcerer substitution levels. You sacrifice 1 spell known and instead add Gust of Wind, Whispering Wind and Wind Wall, all as second level spells.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-16, 04:36 PM
Arcane Disciple feat - adds a priest domain to your spell list, provided your wisdom is high enough.

Rainbow Savant prestige class - at level 10, adds all priest spells to your spell list.

Arakune
2008-03-16, 04:55 PM
Or this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3018661#post3018661)

Not the best thing around, but quite simple and effective.

Saph
2008-03-16, 04:57 PM
The Fey Heritage line of feats from Complete Mage are worth looking at.

For 3 feats, taken at 1st, 6th, and 9th level, you get disguise self, deep slumber, charm monster, confusion, dimension door, and summon nature's ally V as spell-like abilities, each useable once per day. As an added bonus, they don't use up your spell slots, and if you take a fourth feat, Fey Skin, you get DR 5/cold iron permanently.

It's feat-intensive, probably using up all your feats up to and including level 9, but it's still a pretty good deal for Sorcerers, as it helps with your biggest limitation (number of spells known).

- Saph

LibraryOgre
2008-03-16, 05:40 PM
Arcane Disciple feat - adds a priest domain to your spell list, provided your wisdom is high enough.

Rainbow Savant prestige class - at level 10, adds all priest spells to your spell list.

My reading of Rainbow Servant (from Complete Divine) is that you can now choose those spells, but they aren't automatically added to your spells known. As it says, "A 10th level Rainbow Servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list." Can learn, not does learn.

AmberVael
2008-03-16, 06:15 PM
There is one prestige class that gives you a few extra spells of your choice (mostly.)
Fiend-Blooded PrC, from heroes of Horror. Every other level or so it gives you a new spell learned.
Frost Mage PrC from Frostburn gets some summon spells, as well as a couple of others.
Improved Oneriomancy feat from Heroes of horror nets some spells.
Mother Cyst feat from Libris Mortis grants you spells.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-16, 06:46 PM
My reading of Rainbow Servant (from Complete Divine) is that you can now choose those spells, but they aren't automatically added to your spells known.

Hm, good point, then it would work for a beguiler but not a sorcerer.

Okay, the Wild Soul prestige class nets you extra spells. Well, SLAs that duplicate spells. It also goes well flavor-wise with the Fae Bloodline that Saph mentioned.

AmberVael
2008-03-16, 08:25 PM
Well if we want to add spell like abilities, there are a lot of minor ones that you can get from Complete Arcane from feats (probably best taken at low levels), and there are also the fiendish heritage series of feats (like the fey heritage feats).
Though strange, you could also take one or two reserve feats. If done wisely, they can give you entirely different abilities that run off of your other spell slots.

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-16, 09:11 PM
If you're a human, you could dip into the Chameleon PrC (Race of Destiny pg. 111) for 2 levels, and get yourself the Bonus Feat that you change daily. Use this revolving feat for the Extra Spell Feat and you're golden for all Sorcerer/Wizard spells up to level 8. :smallsmile:

Ascension
2008-03-16, 09:21 PM
If you're a human, you could dip into the Chameleon PrC (Race of Destiny pg. 111) for 2 levels, and get yourself the Bonus Feat that you change daily. Use this revolving feat for the Extra Spell Feat and you're golden for all Sorcerer/Wizard spells up to level 8. :smallsmile:

That's actually pretty darn brilliant. Great use of chameleon. I've got to try that sometime.

"Today I know this spell! I wonder which one I'll know tomorrow..."

Zeful
2008-03-16, 09:26 PM
Well if you have psionics and psy-magic transparency get the spell Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) and cast it any time you don't have the right spell. Have it duplicate Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) using the "Duplicate spells of 4 level or lower even if it's from a prohibited school" as psy-magic transparency states that powers function as spells for any ability that affects spells (dispel magic, detect magic, Spell resistance etc.) and choose all your spells over again. Spells also act like powers under this system.

So in the time it takes to cast one spell, you can change out all of your crappy spells for better ones.

You don't need more spells you just need one.

LibraryOgre
2008-03-16, 10:08 PM
If you're a human, you could dip into the Chameleon PrC (Race of Destiny pg. 111) for 2 levels, and get yourself the Bonus Feat that you change daily. Use this revolving feat for the Extra Spell Feat and you're golden for all Sorcerer/Wizard spells up to level 8. :smallsmile:

The Chameleon is a great PrC. If I lose my "Goblin Belkar" as I call him, I'm so going to make a Warlock/Chameleon

Fizban
2008-03-16, 10:25 PM
Arcane Disciple feat - adds a priest domain to your spell list, provided your wisdom is high enough.

Rainbow Savant prestige class - at level 10, adds all priest spells to your spell list.

However, it doesn't add them to your spells known, so it doesn't help here.

And it's Cleric, not priest.

Edit: that's neither of them that adds to spells known, in case you were wondering. Arcane Disciple has been cust. served and FAQ'd all over the place, and the relevant passage for Rainbow Servant has already been quoted.

And I'll also point out before anyone suggests it that Extra Spell doesn't give a spell not on the Sor/Wiz list.

AmberVael
2008-03-16, 10:25 PM
Waaait...
If you get Arcane Disciple for the Spell domain, you can get Anyspell...
>.>
Hmmm...
Granted, due to the limitations of arcane disciple, you'll only get it a few times per day, but still...

LibraryOgre
2008-03-16, 10:42 PM
Unless they've changed Anyspell substantially, it's not as useful as its name implies... it allows you to turn into a wizard, essentially, since it requires a spellbook (or similar writing).

AmberVael
2008-03-16, 11:14 PM
Unless they've changed Anyspell substantially, it's not as useful as its name implies... it allows you to turn into a wizard, essentially, since it requires a spellbook (or similar writing).
People always cite the spellbook as being a bad thing, but it never seems to be a bad thing for actual wizards. Why the double standard?
Seriously, just prepare and get a spellbook ahead of time and start scribing stuff all happy like into it. Buy a scroll or two- keep them in a binder. Can't be much worse than just starting off as a wizard.

Ascension
2008-03-16, 11:21 PM
Thing is, we're assuming that you didn't build your character as a wizard in the beginning for a reason... if the sorcerer picks up a spellbook of his own, there's no reason why he couldn't have put his good stats into INT instead of CHA and been a wizard from the first. If you don't want to be a wizard, I assume you don't want to be a reasonable facsimile of one either.

Aquillion
2008-03-16, 11:23 PM
People always cite the spellbook as being a bad thing, but it never seems to be a bad thing for actual wizards. Why the double standard?
Seriously, just prepare and get a spellbook ahead of time and start scribing stuff all happy like into it. Buy a scroll or two- keep them in a binder. Can't be much worse than just starting off as a wizard.It's slightly bad -- not a huge deal, but it's an issue, because it means that you have to spend the money to buy and maintain a spellbook in order to use whatever spellbook-dependant abilities you're using, while still buying everything you'll normally need as a cleric. Wizards have to pay for spell-related costs, but wizards are getting full wizard abilities without restriction, and it's a basic part of their class... a cleric with anyspell (or most of the other alternatives) is getting less than that (although don't get me wrong, Anyspell is still awesome, since you're paying what is really a small amount of gold in the long run to add much of another classes' abilities to yours). Plus you don't get to put any spells in that spellbook for free at level up the way a wizard does.

Of course, in actual games you'll often just be borrowing your party wizard's spellbook, so it's not an issue. But if you don't have a spellbook-using arcanist (if, say, you're hoping to use Anyspell to substitute for that a bit--not necessarily a good idea, since Anyspell is sharply limited in uses per day and spell levels), then it's an issue.

And no, you can't just buy scrolls and put them in a binder. You need an actual spellbook, and that takes time, money, magical ink costs, etc.

Back on the topic: Eberron's Drake Helms are great if you can use them. Basically, you can get as many spells known as you're willing to pay for shards for. You can't have them all ready at once, but it's no big deal.

LibraryOgre
2008-03-16, 11:27 PM
Thing is, we're assuming that you didn't build your character as a wizard in the beginning for a reason... if the sorcerer picks up a spellbook of his own, there's no reason why he couldn't have put his good stats into INT instead of CHA and been a wizard from the first. If you don't want to be a wizard, I assume you don't want to be a reasonable facsimile of one either.

As he said. Going with Anyspell means that you lose out on the few advantages that a Sorcerer has... speed of preparation and flexibility. It means that, instead of having a USEFUL spell in that slot, you've got a spell which MIGHT be a useful spell... and now you have to spend an hour preparing it, since it always takes an hour to prepare all your spells, no matter how many that might be. Furthermore, unless Arcane Disciple specifically includes text to eliminate that, Anyspell SPECIFICALLY makes your spellcasting of the anyspell dependent upon Wisdom, not charisma.

You're a sorcerer trying to be a wizard, and failing at both.

AmberVael
2008-03-16, 11:59 PM
Acension- Just because you're not a wizard doesn't mean you can take advantage of having a more versatile spell pool. This doesn't make you a wizard- it makes you a sorcerer who can go "hm, this might be handy later."

Aquillion- You can utilize anyspell by using a scroll, not just a spellbook. It is specifically stated in the spell description.

You must have an arcane magical writing (a scroll or a spellbook) on hand to cast anyspell.

Mark Hall- Who said a sorcerer would have to focus on only using anyspell? You might use a few spell slots, spend some gold on some scrolls... but that's hardly giving up all your sorcerer advantages. So you have to put a slightly higher score in wisdom, spend a feat, and some gold. I find that to be a fair trade off for being able to add a larger number of skills to my repertoire. I certainly find it to be a better trade off than spending two levels for a single, moving "extra spell" feat.

This isn't something to focus a character around, no, but it could be a big help that you wouldn't otherwise get.

LibraryOgre
2008-03-17, 12:25 AM
Why would you want to use a scroll for your anyspell? As a Sorcerer, you can already cast it as a scroll... you're now just requiring yourself to spend money on the scroll, spend money on the focus (if any), and getting the benefit of your Wisdom bonus to DCs.

And compare it to Chameleon, please. Sure, you lose two spellcasting levels as a sorcerer. Of course, you can now cast as a 2nd level Chameleon, which might mean a cleric one day, or a wizard the next (which would be about on par with a 4th level in either of those classes... and, in fact, covers your bases as well as Anyspell, since the normal version is limited to 2nd level spells). Heck, if you want to focus on spellcasting with these classes, throw "Practiced Spellcaster" in there as your bonus feat... you can raise your caster level to 7 for either of your Chameleon classes, or make up for the levels you "lost" being a chameleon. You can throw down for a Draconic Heritage feat (want wings today?), since you qualify for that.

I mean, if you're going to boost your Wisdom and Intelligence and carry around a spellbook ANYWAY... you might as well get some USE out of it.

AmberVael
2008-03-17, 07:08 AM
Why would you want to use a scroll for your anyspell? As a Sorcerer, you can already cast it as a scroll... you're now just requiring yourself to spend money on the scroll, spend money on the focus (if any), and getting the benefit of your Wisdom bonus to DCs.
Because... the scroll vanishes after one use normally? Used with Anyspell, it's merely a focus, and can be used over and over again.
And please don't underestimate my intelligence. Do you really think I'll be focusing on spells that use DCs if I go this route? No. Get generic utility spells, or maybe some divinations, IE, things that you won't be using in combat and targeting towards people trying to resist. With the Anyspell route, it's not like you'll be expecting to use them immediately, quickly right now like a sorcerer- focus on being a normal sorcerer, and use Anyspell out of combat to supplement your less varied known spells.


And compare it to Chameleon, please. Sure, you lose two spellcasting levels as a sorcerer. Of course, you can now cast as a 2nd level Chameleon, which might mean a cleric one day, or a wizard the next (which would be about on par with a 4th level in either of those classes... and, in fact, covers your bases as well as Anyspell, since the normal version is limited to 2nd level spells). Heck, if you want to focus on spellcasting with these classes, throw "Practiced Spellcaster" in there as your bonus feat... you can raise your caster level to 7 for either of your Chameleon classes, or make up for the levels you "lost" being a chameleon. You can throw down for a Draconic Heritage feat (want wings today?), since you qualify for that.
Lets see...
"Thou shalt not lose caster levels."
Looks like things favor my side. :smalltongue:
Seriously though- yes you can get more varied casting as a Chameleon, but you won't be progressing a sorcerer (as you said). Normal Anyspell only gets up to 2nd level, but in the Spell Domain you can also get Greater Anyspell (to get up to 5th level, which widens your capabilities by quite a bit.)
Using Chameleon does exactly what you were complaining about before- makes you lose focus on being a sorcerer and doing what you're supposed to be doing- casting. If you plan to go the silly Theurge route, go for Ultimate Magus instead- at least you'll get nifty abilities to combine your two classes.
Using Anyspell takes minimal effort and resources that are actually expendable. The only true expense is the feat you've got to give up, but that's worth it.
Anyspell isn't going to give you amazing versatility and awesomeness, no, but it can be handy if used right.


I mean, if you're going to boost your Wisdom and Intelligence and carry around a spellbook ANYWAY... you might as well get some USE out of it.
You don't have to boost your Wisdom though (at least not a truly costly amount by the levels you're going to.) The only real amount you want your Wisdom to be at is 16, so you can cast the spell at all. Not a really tough price to pay- probably 4000 gold (by level 11, at which it is a pittance) if you plan for this eventuality.
And you don't need Intelligence for this. At all. You could be a 6 int retard and it wouldn't directly effect a Spell domain sorcerer in any way.

Now anyways, this thread has gotten highly off topic. If you want to argue this further, we should do it by PM.

senrath
2008-03-17, 07:10 AM
No one's mentioned it yet, but there is the Epic feat Spell Knowledge that gives you two new spells of any level you can cast. Of course, it is epic...

Paul H
2008-03-17, 08:04 PM
Hi

Two words - Rainbow Servant (CD)

Full caster progression. (Text says yes, although table says no).

1st lvl - Detect Evil at will. Good Domain powers and spells added to spells list
4th lv. Air Domain powers & spells added
7th lvl. Law Domain powers etc.
10th lvl. All clerics' spells added to your spell list

So 16th lvl you can add spells from Cleric list to our own.

Cheers
Paul H

AmberVael
2008-03-17, 08:15 PM
Paul H-
These quotes from the page before you show the vital importance of reading through a thread before posting.


My reading of Rainbow Servant (from Complete Divine) is that you can now choose those spells, but they aren't automatically added to your spells known. As it says, "A 10th level Rainbow Servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list." Can learn, not does learn.

It doesn't add them to your spells known, so it doesn't help here.

Hm, good point, then it would work for a beguiler but not a sorcerer.

So...
No, no, no, and no.

Rainbow Servant does not work that way!

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-17, 11:06 PM
Is there a feat or prc that can give a sorcerer more known spells. Also do you continue learning new spells into epic?

I like Blood line feats from Dragon and the (Greyhawk (Default D&D) Nexus feat from Dragon for spontaneous Summon Monster spells.

Guild Wizard of Waterdeep is similar to Mage of the Arcane Order for access to a spellpool.

The Sandshaper PRC is one of the best for extra spells (The single level loss washes out with a Kobold with the Ritual).

The Dracolexi PRC (RoD) and the Fiend Blooded PRC from HoH are nice.

The Spellsinger PRC from Races of Faerun for All Enchantment/Charm spells from the sorcerer/wizard list for a single level dip (Has to sing them and have some Elf Blood (1/8+ Unusual Kobold who could qualify)).

Kobold Sorcerer Sandshaper -1+ with the Ritual with a Dragon Magazine Bloodline feat to personal taste and the Nexus feat.

Chameleon is nice but instead of two levels of Chamelon a single level of Wizard (Maybe the variant Conjurer from UA/SRD) if the Precocious Apprentice feat works along with the Practiced Caster feat for several levels (4) in Ultimate Magus preferably (Gets the PC several things some Meta burning, +2 Known 1st and 2nd or lower spells, some low level spell versatility with the wizard levels (Several spells that can be Quickened with a level 4 sorcerer spell while applying +1 to +3 meta effects to sorcerer spells.....)

Dipping into GWoW and or MothAO (Two spell pools to dip from). (Nice with a Ring of Theurgy).

Based on the Beguiler class consider home ruling some mechanics:

Have a Collegiate Sorcerer feat that doubles known spells like the Collegiate Wizard feat does in Complete Arcane (Look how many spells and class specials the Beguiler class gets in comparison to the base sorcerer).

Make an Ultimate Sorcerer PRC that works in conjunction with Beguiler treating Beguiler as the spontaneous class and the Sorcerer class as a Wizard in the standard Ultimate Magus PRC.

Make an Ultimate Mystic or Cerebrancer PRC modeled after the Ultimate Magus PRC. This would work great with a Cerebrancer using the Spells to Power variant at Wizard's.

P.S. don't forget the MIC Rune Staves.

Aquillion
2008-03-18, 02:18 AM
Actually, come to think of it, there's a good chance Anyspell doesn't work for a Sorcerer. Ever.

This is because of the exact wording of the spell:


The prepared spell occupies your 3rd-level domain spell slot.Sorcerers, even with Arcane Discipline, don't have a 3rd level domain spell slot that can be 'occupied' in that fashion.

There are other potential issues that I can't recall whether Arcane Discipline fixes or not:
When you cast the arcane spell, it works just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level except that your Wisdom score sets the save DC (if applicable). You must have a Wisdom of at least 10 + the arcane spell's level to prepare and cast it. Your holy symbol substitutes for any non-costly material component.No holy symbol, no cleric levels.

Aside from that, a few other notes. Yes, you're correct, you can prepare it from a scroll, but Mark Hall is also correct:
If you read the spell from a spellbook, the book is unharmed, but reading a spell from a scroll erases the spell from the scroll.So it's pointless.

And don't forget, even after all that, Anyspell has severe limits. You're using a 3rd-level slot to cast a 2nd-level or lower spell (or similarly, 5th level spells using a 6th level slot using Greater Anyspell.) Sure, assuming it works, you get a bit of extra spell access, but you suck at it. That's hardly worth wasting a feat, a spell slot, and multiple unnecessary stat points put into wisdom... just carry around some scrolls already, it's not like scrolls of 1st and 2nd level spells are that expensive. Or, heck, cast Limited Wish when you need a wildcard spell that badly.

Actually, taking Limited Wish is always one solution, if you're just worried about needing another spell occasionally or in emergencies. 300 xp isn't that bad later on.


Anyway! A few other possibilities:

There's a Dragon Magazine feat, Divine Sorcerery, that grants you the domain ability of a specific domain and lets you add one spell from that domain directly to your spell list (no need to waste a spells known slot on it.) But that's not the best part... the best part is that you can change which spell from that domain you get every day! So you're basically getting nine spells known from one feat, albeit only one at a time. The downsides are very restrictive race / alignment restrictions (must be a favored race of your deity, must be within one step of their alignment), and the domains you can choose are very strictly defined by your race + alignment (if it doesn't match your deity's alignment exactly, you only have one choice.)

Still awesome if you can use Dragon Magazine feats, though.

As someone else has noted, there was a whole line of Dragon Magazine 'bloodline' feats that each added nine spells to your spells known based on the bloodline, one for each level (and the only requirements for taking these feats is the ability to cast sorcerer-style spontaneous arcane spells and summon a familiar). Each one removes spells with an 'opposing' descriptor from your class list, though (e.g. Anarchic Bloodline removes spells with the [law] descriptor), so you can never learn them.

For example, Illithid Bloodline removes spells that change size and shape (ouch), but adds Hypnotism, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Confusion, Feeblemind, Mass Suggestion, Insanity, Mind Blank, and Dominate Monster.

If you're in Eberron, another Dragon Magazine feat, Dragonmarked Sorcerer, requires that you be a 1st level Sorcerer, and a member of a Dragonmarked house, without yet having a dragonmark. It adds all the spells available as least, lesser, and greater spell-like abilities of your house's dragonmark to your spells known (when you're high enough to cast them), and you get a least dragonmark that changes to lesser and then greater as the relevent spells become available to you via Sorcerer casting. Very nice. (However, unlike progressing with the usual dragonmark feats, you don't retain your older dragonmark abilities or get extra uses of them -- not that you really need that, since you're spending one feat to ultimately get a greater dragonmark instead of, you know, three. And of course it's incompatable with most other feats/abilities that grant dragonmarks.)

Obviously, though (or at least it's obvious if you know Eberron), this is restricted by race, since dragonmarks are restricted by race -- as always, you must be a member of a race that can be dragonmarked, and you can only choose a dragonmark that appears for your race. Plus there are sometimes RP responsibilities and plot hooks attached to being dragonmarked.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-18, 04:01 AM
Actually, come to think of it, there's a good chance Anyspell doesn't work for a Sorcerer. Ever.

This is because of the exact wording of the spell:

Sorcerers, even with Arcane Discipline, don't have a 3rd level domain spell slot that can be 'occupied' in that fashion.



I disagree there is the Arcane Disciple feat for arcane casters from Complete Divine which specifically provides the domain slot:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Arcane_Disciple,CD

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-03-18, 05:29 AM
"If Dragon Magazine material is allowed in your game, there is an item called a Knowstone that adds to your spells known. It costs the same as a Pearl of Power for the spell's level, doesn't take a slot, and requires a 24 hour attunement period. You can have as many of them as you can afford."

This is a good way to go. getting a Knowstone of dispel magic or another useful spell is a great way to focus your attention on the kind of spells your sorc. is casting. they are in Dragon #331 or #340 I believe.

KoDT69
2008-03-18, 07:05 AM
I always houserule that Sorcerers get double the Known Spells on the list. With only having 7 feats through level 20, spending them all on expanding your list seems a bit unfair. WotC must have thought those extra couple spells per day really deserved major drawbacks or something. Seriously, the RAW Sorcerer is so much weaker than a Wizard, when they should be equals with different application IMO. In fact, I really don't understand why they aren't reversed in power. One has a natural talent with the ability to go learn independantly on top of that, or some regular guy who reads a dusty old tome and unlocks the power of the weave :smallconfused: Wizards make a bag of kittens cry.

AmberVael
2008-03-18, 08:28 AM
Actually, come to think of it, there's a good chance Anyspell doesn't work for a Sorcerer. Ever.

This is because of the exact wording of the spell:
Between Anyspell and and Arcane Disciple there are a lot of assumptions that take place. I think most of your complaints are RAW issues conflicting with RAI. Most DMs, I think, would allow it to be used.
Though I do concede the scroll point- I missed that.


Or, heck, cast Limited Wish when you need a wildcard spell that badly.
The Spell Domain gives you limited wish too. *smirk* Sure, only once per day, but are you going to blow 300xp more than once per day? I doubt it.

Anyspell is very, very limited, I will concede that point. But properly done, using Arcane Disciple for the Spell Domain can be worth it.
Anyspell isn't the only thing you get, remember.

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-18, 10:04 AM
Chameleon is nice but instead of two levels of Chamelon a single level of Wizard (Maybe the variant Conjurer from UA/SRD) if the Precocious Apprentice feat works along with the Practiced Caster feat for several levels (4) in Ultimate Magus preferably (Gets the PC several things some Meta burning, +2 Known 1st and 2nd or lower spells, some low level spell versatility with the wizard levels (Several spells that can be Quickened with a level 4 sorcerer spell while applying +1 to +3 meta effects to sorcerer spells.....)

Won't you end up losing 3 levels of Sorcerer (and 9th levels spells!) if you do that? Wizard loses one, and then two sorcerer levels lost from Ultimate Magus?

Rift_Wolf
2008-03-18, 10:23 AM
Hi

Two words - Rainbow Servant (CD)

Full caster progression. (Text says yes, although table says no).

1st lvl - Detect Evil at will. Good Domain powers and spells added to spells list
4th lv. Air Domain powers & spells added
7th lvl. Law Domain powers etc.
10th lvl. All clerics' spells added to your spell list

So 16th lvl you can add spells from Cleric list to our own.

Cheers
Paul H

Erm... no.
If you read the bit at the start of the prestige classes bit, you can add spells from the cleric list instead of sorceror spells, not as well as. So you can get an extra cleric spell when you level up if you qualify to learn a new one.
A wizard/rainbow servant can cast cleric spells if he adds them to his spellbook. Which means they'd be 4th-rate mystic theurges, at best :-)
Not worth it IMO. A shame, because fluff-wise Rainbow Servant could've fitted with our current campaign (Sadly it bombs)

AmberVael
2008-03-18, 10:29 AM
Won't you end up losing 3 levels of Sorcerer (and 9th levels spells!) if you do that? Wizard loses one, and then two sorcerer levels lost from Ultimate Magus?

Yes, but you'll be totally awesome anyways. :smalltongue:
Ultimate Magus is possibly my favorite dual PrC- I really want to use it sometime.

Aquillion
2008-03-18, 11:06 AM
I disagree there is the Arcane Disciple feat for arcane casters from Complete Divine which specifically provides the domain slot:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Arcane_Disciple,CDNo, it doesn't. It lets you "add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells", which is not the same thing at all. It doesn't make you a prepared caster, it doesn't grant you any new slots or spells per day, and it particuarly doesn't grant you domain slots in which you prepare your new domain spells -- you're casting them as a sorcerer, so they don't get domain slots.

A cleric's domain slot is a special slot in which a prepared caster (like a cleric) can prepare their domain spells and, usually, only their domain spells. Anyspell lets you do something else with it. Since Sorcerers don't have one, even with Arcane Discipline, there's a valid argument to be made for the spell not working. (The only RAW argument you could make in defense is that the spell you prepare somehow occupies the spells known slot granted by Anyspell, which seems nonsensical and might concievably make you lose Anyspell permanently.)

This all might seem like rules-lawyering, but it's actually fairly tricky to houserule. The way Anyspell is worded, it is very plainly intended to make it impossible to have more than one spell prepared via Anyspell at once, even if you wait 24 hours to try and prepare Anyspell again (since you only have one domain slot at each level, and Anyspell occupies its own slot with the spell, you can't cast it again until you've freed up that slot by casting or discarding the arcane spell you used Anyspell to prepare.)

None of this works for a Sorcerer, since (even with Arcane Discipline) they lack analogous rules for preparing spells in discipline slots. You could houserule it, sure, but you'd be inventing rules whole-cloth to make it work. Clear it with your DM first, at the very least.


The Spell Domain gives you limited wish too. *smirk* Sure, only once per day, but are you going to blow 300xp more than once per day? I doubt it.Er, are we still talking about Sorcerers here? That might be worthwhile for a class that doesn't normally have Limited Wish on their class list, but a Sorcerer can learn it anyway. Remember, even with Arcane Discipline, you still have to waste a spells known slot for each spell you get from it... so you're actually worse off than if you'd just taken it normally.

AmberVael
2008-03-18, 11:21 AM
Er, are we still talking about Sorcerers here? That might be worthwhile for a class that doesn't normally have Limited Wish on their class list, but a Sorcerer can learn it anyway. Remember, even with Arcane Discipline, you still have to waste a spells known slot for each spell you get from it... so you're actually worse off than if you'd just taken it normally.

*blinks*
*rechecks Arcane Disciple*
Hmmm... I could have sworn it was different and let you add spells known, and not to your class list... that's how I've always seen it used. Maybe there was a house rule...
In that case, no, it's not worth it at all.
Seriously, with all these restrictions... why would anyone ever take it at all? It's entirely, completely, horribly nerfed.
You don't learn all the spells automatically.
You don't get to cast them more than once per day.
You have to use wisdom to cast them...
What's the point?

KoDT69
2008-03-18, 11:30 AM
You want the easy answer Vael? WotC punishes you for trying to do more than 1 thing with your PC. That's why Mystic Theurge sucks the nether regions of a troglodyte. It seems to be the same mentality that made them say "teh Cleric iz ZOMGWTFPWNTASTIC and needz n3rfd" and we have the Favored Soul. A decent concept to make a divine Sorcerer variant, then pigeon-holed it with set abilitied tied to the deity and making it dependant on CHA and WIS. It inherently sucks eggs. Sure it's more balanced, but really... :smallfurious: I houserule it to be totally CHA dependant, as well as the Sorcerer. I also give the Sorcerer bonus feats at 1-5-10-15-20 as a Wizard and double spells known on all spontaneous casters (and don't enforce that full-round metamagic crap either, they're already limited and a level behind for Cuthbert's sake).

As for the feat, I read it and thought it was crap too. If you play it as though it adds the 9 domain spells to your known spells and make it totally CHA based as I do, it would be a great feat. Maybe to balance it from this, leave out the domain power? Depends... You could technically use a feat on War Doamin access and get a free Weapon Focus... Yeah right, listen to me, that's barely incentive for anything now isn't it? I almost thought twice on it :smalleek:

AmberVael
2008-03-18, 11:55 AM
As for the feat, I read it and thought it was crap too. If you play it as though it adds the 9 domain spells to your known spells and make it totally CHA based as I do, it would be a great feat. Maybe to balance it from this, leave out the domain power? Depends... You could technically use a feat on War Doamin access and get a free Weapon Focus... Yeah right, listen to me, that's barely incentive for anything now isn't it? I almost thought twice on it :smalleek:

It doesn't give the domain power anyways. :smallyuk:

Aquillion
2008-03-18, 12:19 PM
Seriously, with all these restrictions... why would anyone ever take it at all? It's entirely, completely, horribly nerfed.
You don't learn all the spells automatically.
You don't get to cast them more than once per day.
You have to use wisdom to cast them...
What's the point?Well, it's somewhat less awful for a prepared caster, who just needs some scrolls. And you can take it as a caster who normally has a very restrictive class list. But yeah, there's a lot of awful feats out there.

Paul H
2008-03-18, 12:39 PM
Hi

Just to clarify my earlier post - I know for a Sorceror there is a difference between your spell list and spells known. Just means you have access to larger lists of spells you take as you level.

Different with Warmages, though. They 'know' all the spells on their spell list. As that list expands (advanced learning, feats, PrC's, etc) they automatically know them. Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 10 has 2 new spells from advanced learning, plus the 3 domains, plus all clerical spells.

Changeling Recaster from Eberron is similar. You can add 2 new spells (from any list) to list of spells available., not spells known.
Same goes for Changeling Warmage/Recaster. These 2 new spells added to spell list, ie spells known.

Cheers
Paul H

KoDT69
2008-03-18, 12:56 PM
It doesn't give the domain power anyways. :smallyuk:

Sorry, no idea where that thought came from :smalleek: So they REALLY didn't even try to make that feat useful. It exists to fill white space on a page to get a new splatbook printed. Content doesn't matter when the goal is to simply get anough words in there to fill a book I guess. :smallfrown:

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-18, 01:09 PM
Yes, but you'll be totally awesome anyways. :smalltongue:
Ultimate Magus is possibly my favorite dual PrC- I really want to use it sometime.

I dunno. I still think Fochlucan Lyrist kicks the stuffings out of any dual progression class I've ever seen, though it is pretty difficult to get into as a consequence. Full caster progressions for Arcane, Divine, Bard singing, and full BAB? Plus it gets you out of having to pay a multiclass XP penalty ever.

That said, it's still a huge trade off of spell levels which you should always try not to give up.


Sorry, no idea where that thought came from :smalleek: So they REALLY didn't even try to make that feat useful. It exists to fill white space on a page to get a new splatbook printed. Content doesn't matter when the goal is to simply get anough words in there to fill a book I guess. :smallfrown:

It's still pretty good for getting an arcane caster/gish Divine Power via the War domain. And since the other spells in the War domain are pretty useless, you just fill them up with differently metamagic'ed DP's.

Paul H
2008-03-18, 01:26 PM
Hi

Prefer Lyric Thaumaturge (CM) to fochlucan Lyricist. Extra spells known from Sor/Wiz list, full spell progression, plus extra spell slots.

Bard 6/Lyr Thaum 4 has extra 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th lvl spell slots, extra 1st & 2nd lvl spells know (from sor/wiz list), plus Captivating Melody as bonus feat. Even has full amount bard music/day! Gets even worse by 10th lvl of PrC.

Of course - this isn't srtrictly a Sorceror progression, just a Bard who gets extra spell slots, plus some extra sorceror spells added to spells known. Oh, and extra D6 sonic damage to spells with sonic descriptor. Good for Bards casting Fireball.

Cheers
Paul H

AmberVael
2008-03-18, 02:27 PM
I dunno. I still think Fochlucan Lyrist kicks the stuffings out of any dual progression class I've ever seen, though it is pretty difficult to get into as a consequence. Full caster progressions for Arcane, Divine, Bard singing, and full BAB? Plus it gets you out of having to pay a multiclass XP penalty ever.

That said, it's still a huge trade off of spell levels which you should always try not to give up.

Power, schmower. Ultimate Magus cares not for your mechanical benefits, it just IS awesome.
Much like the ninja. :smalltongue:

I have no reasoning behind why Ultimate Magus is so fun- I just think it is.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 04:32 PM
Sorry, no idea where that thought came from :smalleek: So they REALLY didn't even try to make that feat useful. It exists to fill white space on a page to get a new splatbook printed.

It is very useful, only not for sorcerers. Wizards can make good use of it, and even moreso, any class that can cast everything from its list, like beguilers or warmages.

If you're bothered that a beguiler can't do damage, take the Fire domain. If you want him to summon, take Summoning. If you want a warmage who can buff, take strength. If you want a wizard who can heal, take Good. Etc.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-18, 05:35 PM
Won't you end up losing 3 levels of Sorcerer (and 9th levels spells!) if you do that? Wizard loses one, and then two sorcerer levels lost from Ultimate Magus?

No, but it is based around using the Precocious Apprentice feat trick to work for qualifying for the Ultimate Magus PRC or similar PRC that advances 2 classes simultaneously which some games don't allow. Requires taking 2 feats and wizard at first level but nice for lower level games especially games that use a lot of spell meta.

Specialist -1 with Precocious Apprentice and Practiced Spellcaster feats, Sorc -4, Ultimate Magus -4 (Capstone because of how UM advances the classes) even with multiclassing rules penalties which most games don't enforce we are talking less than a 2,000 experience point penalty since the penalty isn't assigned to PRCs.

At level 9:
Wizard Spellcasting as a Specialist -3 ((Spec -1 + (UM +2) because of PC feat (Cantrips, First and Second level spells)) who casts his spells L3 + 4 (PC) + 2 = CL9 (Nice for several spell meta fueled spells like a Quickened Magic Missile or Scorching Ray fueled by level 4 sorcerer spells something a comparable L9 wizard needs to burn a level 5 spell slot to for a Quickened Magic Missile or Empowered Sorcerer Spells fueled by a level 2 wizard spell)

Sorcerer spellcasting a Sorcerer - 8 ((Cantrips to fourth level spells) Sorc -4 + (UM +4) plus the sorcerer knows 2 extra spells normally a 1st and 2nd but possibly a second and a cantrip, 2 first or a first and a cantrip or 2 cantrips.

Chronicled
2008-03-18, 05:44 PM
It is very useful, only not for sorcerers. Wizards can make good use of it, and even moreso, any class that can cast everything from its list, like beguilers or warmages.

If you're bothered that a beguiler can't do damage, take the Fire domain. If you want him to summon, take Summoning. If you want a warmage who can buff, take strength. If you want a wizard who can heal, take Good. Etc.

Since the DC's are based of your Wis, it's better to take a domain with spells not reliant on that. Travel, Pride, and Time are excellent choices; for late-game, one that grants Miracle would be pretty fun.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 05:45 PM
Specialist -1 with Precocious Apprentice and Practiced Spellcaster feats, Sorc -4, Ultimate Magus -4

Wouldn't it be easier to do that the other way around, sorcerer 1 / wizard 4 / UM X? Less hassle, and most DMs I know don't allow the dodgy rules of the precocious apprentice trick (and don't get me started on whether that trick is legal by RAW, several years on the charop boards have not yielded a consensus on that either).



Since the DC's are based of your Wis, it's better to take a domain with spells not reliant on that.
Er, yes, that's why I mentioned summoning, buffing and healing?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-18, 05:58 PM
It is very useful, only not for sorcerers. Wizards can make good use of it, and even moreso, any class that can cast everything from its list, like beguilers or warmages.



I disagree even under your interpretation and limitations. Sorcerers either know or don't know the spells on their spell lists as known spells they don't partially know a spell.

There is no need for a sorcerer to even take the feat if it is learned as an unusal spell (Doesn't require spell research just the DM's permission if a game would allow Beguilers and Warmages to benefit from the feat.

Say some DM still wouldn't let the PC learn the spell as an unusal spell because they think it is to good. The feat is still great for high level sorcerers with the Luck domain for High Arcana Miracles as an Arch Mage who would cast 2 No experience Miracles/day as a spell like ability (based on Charisma) and one once a day based on Wisdom. The PC wouldn't need to maintain a high Wisdom just borrow the Cleric's periapt for the day making it a Spell like ability.

Edit: Regarding the preceding post:

No, Ultimate Magus requires second level spell arcane casting from a spellbook (wizard) and first level spontaneous casting Beguiler is generally better than Sorcerer unfortunately at low levels mechanically. If there was a corresponding Ultimate Sorcerer PRC for spontaneous casters of the sorcerer/wizard spell list yes but that would be homebrew at the present. I use most of the same variants as KoDT69 based on a mix of Spellcaster, Shugenka and Wujen Spell Secrets after the Favored Soul was introduced and gave it more skill points after the Beguiler base class was introduced.

Noted it was based on a trick (Precocious Apprentice feat) the charop boards are a good sampling some games allow it others don't.

IMO it would have been a nice sorcerer fix with minimal MAD if the spontaneous and prepared spell casting requirements were reversed sort of based on the starting PC ages for first level humans and the advancement was staggered so strangely:

Sorcerer 15 + 1D4 years (Average 17.5), Wizard 15 +2D6 years (Average 22).

P.S. really liked the Wild Mage dip trick you and Frosty posted with an Ultimate Magus build and using it to lower caster level on the sorcerer side.

Mystral
2008-03-19, 01:28 AM
I would suggest Wildsoul. You lose a caster level, but you get another spell per spell level (2 lists of spells choosable).

If you are good (I'll assume you are), you get:

1: Remove Fear
2: Tashas horrible laughter
3: Invisibility sphere
4: Break enchantment
5: Balefull Polymorph
6: True seeing
7: Rainbow spray
8: Sympathy
9: Time stop

The evil spell list has such gems like horrid wilting, mass suggestion, detect thoughts and wail of the banshee. If you are neutral, you can choose both of them, but I would advise for the good spell list because evil fey are fugly and I know you want that diplomacy bonus for that nymph. :smallbiggrin:

On top of that, you get a +1 on DCs for Enchantments and Illusions (No spell focus so you can still take those and greater spell focus for a bonus of +3), a summmon ability 3times/day and various other benefits. Oh yeah, and Diplomacy is a class skill for you.

As long as you are not lawfull, the prerequisites are really to easy to reach if your DM approves of the class and you tell him in advance.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-19, 04:21 AM
If you are neutral, you can choose both of them, but I would advise for the good spell list because evil fey are fugly and I know you want that diplomacy bonus for that nymph. :smallbiggrin:

You mean you can choose either of them :smallbiggrin:

In my opinion the evil spell list is better, with the exception that invisibility sphere is awesome, and assuming that (like most campaigns) your campaign won't actually reach level 15-20. That's because remove fear and break enchantment are highly situational, and especially because the summon spells (which are another wild soul ability) get better creatures if you're evil.

Mystral
2008-03-19, 04:50 AM
Yeah, either... my bad. You don't loose them though, you just get the appropiate spell list if you turn good or evil.

And our campaign is approaching level 13 and still going strong, so maybe I'm to focused on those levels in my way of thinking. Break Enchantment is usefull though, our bard has to cast it at least once every 3 sessions. Our DM likes flesh to stone.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-19, 06:27 AM
And our campaign is approaching level 13 and still going strong, so maybe I'm to focused on those levels in my way of thinking. Break Enchantment is usefull though, our bard has to cast it at least once every 3 sessions. Our DM likes flesh to stone.

Flesh to Stone is better than a dead PC needing an expensive raise dead with the diamond cost and the loss of level.

Green and Red
2008-03-19, 08:07 AM
Yeah, either... my bad. You don't loose them though, you just get the appropiate spell list if you turn good or evil.

And our campaign is approaching level 13 and still going strong, so maybe I'm to focused on those levels in my way of thinking. Break Enchantment is usefull though, our bard has to cast it at least once every 3 sessions. Our DM likes flesh to stone.

i might have gotten this wrong, but i dont think break enchantment can remove flesh to stone. it only works on things that resist dispel magic as long as they are lvl 5 or lower, and flesh to stone is lvl 6... would seem like a reasonable houserule though

Severus
2008-03-19, 06:50 PM
Break enchantment breaks instant effect spells, including stone to flesh and various other semi-permanent effects. It's quite useful.

Aquillion
2008-03-19, 08:39 PM
Break enchantment breaks instant effect spells, including stone to flesh and various other semi-permanent effects. It's quite useful.
Only some of them, and not ones above level 5:
If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.Flesh to Stone is 6th level and can't be dispelled; hence, Break Enchantment is powerless against it. You need Stone to Flesh or something higher-powered.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-19, 11:09 PM
Only some of them, and not ones above level 5:Flesh to Stone is 6th level and can't be dispelled; hence, Break Enchantment is powerless against it. You need Stone to Flesh or something higher-powered.

Maybe the DM will throw Baleful Polymorphs at them from now on.

Severus
2008-03-20, 10:17 AM
Only some of them, and not ones above level 5:Flesh to Stone is 6th level and can't be dispelled; hence, Break Enchantment is powerless against it. You need Stone to Flesh or something higher-powered.

This must be one of the 3.5 changes that I constantly miss. It certainly used to.

Another reason I think 3.5 was a dumb update.

holywhippet
2008-03-21, 04:08 PM
This must be one of the 3.5 changes that I constantly miss. It certainly used to.

Another reason I think 3.5 was a dumb update.

Yes, I checked my 3.0 PHB, break enchantment specifically says it counters stone to flesh.