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Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-16, 10:12 PM
I'm in the middle of a huge homebrew project to replace the 3.5 blight with something a bit more ToBesque and I've hit a spell where I'm in need of inspiration. What abilities would an unarmed fighter need to have to keep pace with non-Batman'd casters?

Zincorium
2008-03-16, 10:31 PM
The main problem the unarmed fighter has is that the wizard can break the rules that the fighter has to go by normally. So let the unarmed fighter play the same game.

Automatically win initiative?
Move so quickly as to take multiple rounds worth of actions in a single turn?
Completely immobilize your opponent?

These honestly don't even break immersion, certainly less than destroying a building with a single blow (something high level fighters can do).

The trick is to frame them in a non-magical context, but with the assumption that magic exists and is known. If you're aware that a mage can blast you into dust if they are faster than you, fighters become bruce-lee type fast. Bruce Lee and many other martial artists move so fast that they have to slow down fights for people to see what's going on.

And D&D should be orders of magnitude better than that.

Let an unarmed fighter get an ability where they can render an opponent unconscious or dead with a single blow (better than stunning fist or quivering palm). It's doable in real life, and you can make it as good or better than the more versatile spellcaster.

SadisticFishing
2008-03-16, 10:33 PM
Use the unarmed swordsage option :P (In the Swordsage Adaptation section).

LibraryOgre
2008-03-16, 10:33 PM
Since you're going ToB, I would definitely give them access to some of those maneuvers... perhaps replacing their bonus feats with them, and replacing flurry of blows with them, as well.

I think everyone should be able to full-attack after a move action, without Pouncing or similar abilities being required. It makes fighters much more tactically viable.

sonofzeal
2008-03-16, 10:35 PM
I'm in the middle of a huge homebrew project to replace the 3.5 blight with something a bit more ToBesque and I've hit a spell where I'm in need of inspiration. What abilities would an unarmed fighter need to have to keep pace with non-Batman'd casters?
First, Batman is not the most powerful way of playing a Wizard. He's simply the type that's least likely to lose you friends out of your perpetual domination at the table. Batman relies on his pals and makes them more effective, rather than competing with them.

Now, the prime advantage of the Monk class as opposed to anything else is sheer durability - it's got the best base saves in the game, and is one of only two base classes I can think of that provides an AC bonus merely by being a certain level (the other is Scout, and for that you have to be moving). I'd try to build on that if I were you, by giving them more things to synergize. Giving them the Duelist's Enhanced Mobility would be nice, as well as a bonus against Hold Person at low levels and more uses of Abundant Step later on.

As for offense... Full BAB should do it, really. Flurry gets pretty sweet that way, just try to do something to discourage dippers more, like double xp penalty if you have less levels in it than in your other class.

Oh, and giving access to Setting Sun, Diamond Mind, and White Raven maneuvers and stances would rock too. Shall we say.... handle it as Swordsage but with all numbers halved, rounded down, and only those three schools allowed?

How does that sound to people?

Solo
2008-03-16, 10:37 PM
Falcon Punch
General Feat
Pre-requisits: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, BaB +10

By shouting out "Falcon Punch" as a free action, you may add 1d6 points of [Fire] and 1d6 points of [Sonic] damage to your one unarmed attack per point of your Power Attack penalty.

The Falcon Punch must be designated before rolling for attack.

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-16, 10:41 PM
Perhaps something similar to counterspells?

edit: Misunderstood a bit.

Basically, the monk needs to have some kind of a role. There should be at least one thing it's great at, and probably a few things it's alright at. Should it's primary function be kicking butt, support (making it easier for others to kick butt essentially), skills (not terribly likely), kicking a certain kind of butt (anti magician, anti living stuff, anti outsider seem the obvious choices), or any number of things I haven't thought of.

It doesn't need all this, but it would help.

If we're trying to balance against full casters, I'd basically suggest think Ninja. Awesome at kicking butt, thiefness, and a little magic. That however stomps on everyone, and your comment about non batman implies that the casters aren't going to be super optimized.


I think what the Monk was trying to be, was primarily kicking butt. It's medium BAB was because they felt otherwise Flurry would overshadow fighters. Secondary roles are taking damage, mobility, hindering enemies (i.e. grapples and disarming). In addition to that, it was supposed to be able to fight magicians. The rest is just flavor abilities.

How exactly the Monk should be able to do all that? Giving it full BAB seems to be a fairly popular suggestion. I'd toss a lot of the questionable abilities, and give it partial spell casting. The route with the least work is to take your pick of Ranger or Paladin. You can keep, drop, or modify flurry at your own discretion. In theory, it could use more skill points, but that may be a bit too much if you're doing the rest of this.

It's stronger than most classes by this point, but I think that's the idea. I can only assume you already have something in mind for the Fighter.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-16, 10:56 PM
Needs:

Ability to enhance unarmed strikes. Many allow enhancted gloves or clothwraps for this purpose, which isn't a far stretch from the guantlet approach, which is perfectly legal, if kinda silly.

Flurry of blows as a standard action.

Abundant Step multiple times/day.

Some other mobility spell-like ability (perhaps airwalk).

6+int skills/level.

FlyMolo
2008-03-16, 11:52 PM
I was going to step into this thread, say "Wizard Levels" and leave, but this is interesting.

Sadly, I have nothing to contribute.

The monk needs more of everything it's got. More AS, full BAB. As a start, for sure.

Chronos
2008-03-17, 12:53 AM
Personally, I'd allow an extra attack from Flurry or Two-Weapon Fighting whenever a character could normally take a single attack. So you can move, and then give a one-two punch (or one-two sword slash, or whatever). Likewise, you'd get one attack with each weapon or fist on an attack of opportunity. This would give an actual reason to play both a monk and a two-weapon fighter or ranger.


Basically, the monk needs to have some kind of a role. There should be at least one thing it's great at, and probably a few things it's alright at.There is actually one thing the monk is great at already: He's the best PHB class for advance scouting, with Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot as class skills, plus a huge speed bonus. The problem is that by the time he starts getting decent at it, the wizard's familiar can do about as good a job, and by the time he's great at it, scrying will usually be a better option. Plus, a lot of groups don't make heavy use of intelligence gathering, anyway.

sonofzeal
2008-03-17, 01:03 AM
There is actually one thing the monk is great at already: He's the best PHB class for advance scouting, with Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot as class skills, plus a huge speed bonus. The problem is that by the time he starts getting decent at it, the wizard's familiar can do about as good a job, and by the time he's great at it, scrying will usually be a better option. Plus, a lot of groups don't make heavy use of intelligence gathering, anyway.
Actually, I see the Monk's primary role as survival. Lack of armor aside, it's easily the most defensive class in the game, with abilities to shrug off almost anything that can be thrown at it, including Abundant Step for forcecage and solid fog, huge saves, SR for the really nasty stuff, and fast movement to get the heck out of there when things go pear-shaped. I see the monk as the most likely character to survive a near-TPK. All that's needed is a way for the monk to quickly get the bodies into a bag of holding, and everything else is recoverable.

That same survivability makes him a good scout, sure, because he can wander into an encounter meant for the whole party and still make it back in one piece, but to me the durability is his primary trait.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-17, 01:13 AM
A class designed to be the guy who picks up the PCs bodies and gets them back to the healer needs to be re-thought.

sonofzeal
2008-03-17, 01:19 AM
A class designed to be the guy who picks up the PCs bodies and gets them back to the healer needs to be re-thought.
Oh, of course, but "impossible to kill" is as good a place to start as any. Give him fast healing and win by attrition? Better yet, toss him the entire "Combat Form" series of feats from PHB2 as bonus feats at the level at which a full-bab class would qualify. That fits the flavour well, builds on his natural survivability, and provides a couple offensive options as well.

Chronicled
2008-03-17, 01:22 AM
Ideally, I'd rewrite the monk class, and give them wire-fu. But without anything so dramatic, I'd like to give monks the skirmish ability as per the halfling monk substitution levels in RotW: +1d6 damage at 1st level, +2d6 at 11th, +1 competence to AC at 5th, and +2 AC at 15th. Instead of replacing flurry of blows, though (as it does there), I think it should stack. Let's a monk contribute whether staying put or being mobile is a better option at the time.

That, full BAB, and the ability to enhance their fists via wraps/gauntlets should make a decent start to equalizing them with the fighter at least.

^I like the PHB2 feats as bonus feats tossed in, too. That feat set is fun.

Talic
2008-03-17, 01:37 AM
I'm gonna take a different route... And say, go "anime", and then martial arts.

Vanish somewhere, and appear somewhere else, instantly. Improve D Door ability (Swift action, can perform actions afterwards).

Lightning fast, power hits (Apply Dex to damage instead of strength).

Mind over Body: Wisdom modifier (instead of Con) determines bonus HP.

More flexibility in choosing a martial art style(add Martial Study and Martial stance as available substitution feats for any bonus monk feat). Stone Dragon would represent hard striking arts (like karate), Setting sun would be the "water" style arts (like Judo), Tiger Claw would be mobility oriented, and so forth.

This signifigantly reduces MAD, and allows for more Monkish flexibility.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-17, 01:42 AM
There is very little reason to keep monk if you are using Tome of Battle. Swordsage works -just give it unarmed strike progression instead of the ability to wear armor, and your golden.

Dr Bwaa
2008-03-17, 03:01 AM
I largely agree with Talic, and the people who have said that the monk needs more of what it has. Speed is already a prime thing, so instead of just upping base land linearly, I definitely agree with improved D Door or something similar. At some point, maybe they can Haste themselves 3/day or some such. Extra attacks. +1 enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes every time AC goes up. I really like the WIS to HP and DEX to damage thing: a big thing that I see holding monks back is the sheer number of stats they absolutely must put points into to be feasible (namely, everything but INT and CHA). Decreasing that even to two puts them much closer to on par with the other PHB classes that only need one or MAYBE two decent stats.
I also think some of the questionable abilities should be replaced with some cooler SLAs that, you know, make sense and/or can possibly be useful.


Side note: I LOVE the Falcon Punch idea.

MammonAzrael
2008-03-17, 03:37 AM
Is this unarmed strike progression for a swordsage a homebrew thing? Where can it be found?

Khanderas
2008-03-17, 03:40 AM
Is this unarmed strike progression for a swordsage a homebrew thing? Where can it be found?
I have not looked at it, but seems to me pretty straight up.
A swordsage that puts his feats and special attacks into unarmed combat, no homebrewing whatsoever.
As for new.. nah someone always brings it up in most any monk thread.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-17, 03:44 AM
There is a suggestion in the back of the swordsage class. One is to replace certain class features with the monk unarmed attack progression, and remove the ability to wear armor. I only brought it up because it was mentioned that you could give monk Martial Study and Martial Stance. Which is pointless, because monk can't compete with swordsage in any game that uses Tome of Battle.

So if you are using ToB, just replace monk with swordsage. Same niche, better execution.

If you don't like ToB, or don't have it, I gave different suggestions.

Chronicled
2008-03-17, 03:50 AM
If you do go with the unarmed swordsage variant, the (unstated) addition is to give the swordsage Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, along with the monk's unarmed attack progression.

Ascension
2008-03-17, 03:53 AM
Anyone who wants to play a monk should play a cloistered cleric.

...

...

...

OH! You meant one of those Asian monks who beats up people! Can't help you there...

BlackRabite
2008-03-17, 09:59 AM
We did some changes to monks in our campaigns to make them something like tanks. We got rid of their bonus feats and replaced them with different monk abilities. At level one they got improved grapple and improved trip, at level two they could make a full unarmed attack using the grapple rules on their grapple target and they kept their dex to AC while in a grapple, and at level six they ignored size/leg modifiers to grapple and trip checks and added strength and dex modifiers to their roll. We also gave them an increased progression on their bonus AC and Abundant steps equal to their wisdom modifier per day.

It was a really strange modification, seemed pretty supernatural at times when our grapple optimized monk was wrestling down huge sized creatures and above, but it gave them a defined party role. They were the large creature tanks, they were still pretty hard to hit if they tried to get a high AC, it kept the giant monsters from swallowing people and if there wasn't a giant monster they could leap out of hiding, attach themselves to the spellcasters face and beat the crap out of him while in a grapple. It worked really well.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-17, 06:26 PM
The monk can't be fixed for 2 reasons. One is the fact that spellcasters are overpowered to the point of rendering melee types obsolete. This can't be easily fixed by improving melee characters, though ToB comes close. The other reason is that monks are designed as survivalists, which is normally great, but means that their offense is sub-par. In D&D, offense is much more useful than defense, and your party won't be especially appreciative of your ability to survive when all of them are dead. There is essentially no way to make the monk balanced in a D&D party. Use the unarmored swordsage variant and call it a day.

Prometheus
2008-03-17, 07:16 PM
I'd focus on his antispellcasting role:
-Spell Resistance earlier and better (or at least a feat to enhance it on par with that of casters).
-Maybe his attacks are more effective against unarmored opponents or pierce magical sources of protection and force effects
-Maybe he can give up some of his movement for more than one attack with a charge.
-Perhaps immunity to illusions, fear and the ability to bestow that immunity (or at least a bonus) to his allies (like a paladin does).
-The supernatural ability to see invisibility, eventually true seeing.
-Resistance to scrying
-Freedom of Movement

That being said, I agree with sonofzeal's assessment of the surviving monk and would also expand upon those abilities. But maybe the real problem with the PCs tend to be the aggressors and not the defenders in the vast majority of combat scenarios. If there was a gauntlet of spells thrown at me with little I could do about attacking, I'd probably want to be a monk or a cure-monkey - the two least favorite roles.

Rutee
2008-03-17, 07:27 PM
Falcon Punch
General Feat
Pre-requisits: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, BaB +10

By shouting out "Falcon Punch" as a free action, you may add 1d6 points of [Fire] and 1d6 points of [Sonic] damage to your one unarmed attack per point of your Power Attack penalty.

The Falcon Punch must be designated before rolling for attack.

No, no, add a Charge Requirement and make that Falcon Kick. Falcon Punch is Epic Level (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tqAG3wW3NRo)

Squash Monster
2008-03-17, 07:32 PM
Oh, of course, but "impossible to kill" is as good a place to start as any. Give him fast healing and win by attrition?Monk == Rocky Balboa?


A class needs a role in combat: monks have none. If you want them to be effective, the role has to either be killing things, debuffing, or battlefield control*. Personally, I think debuffing would be the best fit for a monk. They could be really heavy on debilitating counters (think aikido) and have a few abilities to trick opponents into attacking them.

For example, you could have counters that trip, throw, disarm, sunder, start a grapple, end a turn, dislocate a joint (str or dex penalty), or daze the attacker.


*Tank is not effective. Scout/trapmonkey is non-combat. Healer is non-combat. Buffing is killing things, although indirectly.

Behold_the_Void
2008-03-17, 07:53 PM
I'd say play with the mobility. Give him some jumping-related abilities that let him jump up to a flying wizard and pummel him in the face, for example. In addition to full BAB, pounce, easily enchantable fist, and possibly more of his Abundant Step.

holywhippet
2008-03-17, 07:54 PM
A class needs a role in combat: monks have none. If you want them to be effective, the role has to either be killing things, debuffing, or battlefield control*. Personally, I think debuffing would be the best fit for a monk. They could be really heavy on debilitating counters (think aikido) and have a few abilities to trick opponents into attacking them.

Monks do have a role in combat - skirmishing and targetting vulnerabilities. A monk should hit and run - which they can do so well because they have better move speed than most opponents. They are better at attacking at range since their class tends to invite high DEX scores. If the enemy wizard is hiding behind some meat shields, just tumble on past and introduce a stunning fist attack. If they are flying, lob an alchemists fire up at them.

In a recent session, the party was at the bottom of a tower having chased down and killed a barghest. Unfortunately his goblin minions were up on top of the tower and quite annoyed at our actions. They had bows, we had low hit points. We surivived the first round thanks to them attacking characters with enough HP to survive said attacks. The tower was 40 foot tall and the GM ruled that I'd get half my ranged increment for any thrown attacks due to the difficulty of throwing straight upwards. My monk used his superior speed to race into the tower and up to the top floor. On the next round, he began lobbing alchemists fire and flasks of oil up through the trapdoor. The goblins had to cease attacking and busy themselves trying to fight the fires as the roof was covered in wood. Our dwarvern fighter eventually stomped up to the top floor as well and helped out, but for several rounds my monk was the main thing keeping the party safe.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-17, 08:00 PM
Monks do have a role in combat - skirmishing and targetting vulnerabilities. A monk should hit and run - which they can do so well because they have better move speed than most opponents. They are better at attacking at range since their class tends to invite high DEX scores. If the enemy wizard is hiding behind some meat shields, just tumble on past and introduce a stunning fist attack. If they are flying, lob an alchemists fire up at them.
"Skirmishing" isn't a *role*, it's a style of combat. Monks are bad at skirmishing, because if they take Spring Attack they're dealing negligible damage (while remaining in charge range), while if they move up and hit, they're exposed to a full attack. If they hit and then move away the next turn, they might get out of charge range, but they still took a full attack (and now someone else will).
Ranged attacks... monks don't get access to good ranged weapons.
As for "targeting vulnerabilities"... only that of stun-vulnerable things with a low Fort save, which is quite a small minority of all enemies... and he runs out to boot (at high levels, not an issue; at low-through-mid, yes).

Alchemist's fire... oh no, fire, 1d6 a round.


In a recent session, the party was at the bottom of a tower having chased down and killed a barghest. Unfortunately his goblin minions were up on top of the tower and quite annoyed at our actions. They had bows, we had low hit points. We surivived the first round thanks to them attacking characters with enough HP to survive said attacks. The tower was 40 foot tall and the GM ruled that I'd get half my ranged increment for any thrown attacks due to the difficulty of throwing straight upwards. My monk used his superior speed to race into the tower and up to the top floor. On the next round, he began lobbing alchemists fire and flasks of oil up through the trapdoor. The goblins had to cease attacking and busy themselves trying to fight the fires as the roof was covered in wood. Our dwarvern fighter eventually stomped up to the top floor as well and helped out, but for several rounds my monk was the main thing keeping the party safe.
Why didn't you have bows? Or spells? Or the idea to duck into the tower?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-17, 08:02 PM
Monks do have a role in combat - skirmishing and targetting vulnerabilities.

Vulnerabilities ... such as what?


A monk should hit and run - which they can do so well

And thus lose their ability to flurry.


because they have better move speed than most opponents.

Means little if your enemy is flying.


They are better at attacking at range since their class tends to invite high DEX scores.

Phear my shuriken!


If the enemy wizard is hiding behind some meat shields, just tumble on past and introduce a stunning fist attack.

Meh. The DC's aren't exactly terrifying - indeed, about as bad as those for spells.


If they are flying, lob an alchemists fire up at them.


1d6 damage lolz.

Admiral Squish
2008-03-17, 08:13 PM
Full BAB (duh)

Dimension door far more often. Probably 1-2 times/encounter would do. Oh, and make it a move instead of a standard, and allow actions afterward.

Make the SR advance faster. Make it level x 2, but with no bonus, and gain it at eighth or around there.

Enhance-able fists is a MUST. Maybe give it something like the soulknife's bonus, but to the unarmed strike rather than the mindblade. Just a maybe.

Flurry as a standard action, another must.

I like the idea for wis to health and dex to damage. That would REALLY help.

I second the jumping bonus. Either that or something like air walk for a round, with full speed. Maybe even make them able to make standing jumps without the penalty.

sikyon
2008-03-17, 08:42 PM
I've always thought of the monk as more of a buhdism type character. As the Wizard is strong in his arcane magics, manipulating the fabric of reality directly, and the Psion manipulates the fabric of reality with his mind, the monk manipulates the fabric of reality with his soul. Each person's soul is a potent force in the fabric of the universe, like the gravitational wells of stars which warp and twist the forces of space and time scattered about the universe.

In short, I feel that the monk should be able to control the fabric of the universe the way a wizard does using spells and a psion does with his mind, but the monk would do it with his soul. Their purity of soul would be like aligning domains in a magnet. Normally, iron is not magnetic as each domain is oriented differently and they end up cancelling out. However, in a magnet the domains are oriented together and therefore it emits a magnetic field. The same would go for monks.

And souls call to souls. The monk's powers would be primarily soul-affecting, capable of doing things like inflicting damage on their opponent's souls with their own purity, and at their highest levels be able to pry an opponent's soul from their body.

However, would this mean they would be helpless against constructs or undead? Nay! For reality is mearly the tapestry that the art of life dances upon, and so could a monk-soul weave that tapestry to bring the art to life. Indeed, the purity of soul would be able to reform the very fabric of reality and give birth to souls where there were non before. Of course, even for the most powerful of monks bringing life to where there was non is incredibly difficult, and giving complex life (sentiance) would be incredibly difficult. This would be on the level of Reality alteration and Wish and Miracle themselves. Once life is given to reality, space, time, the monk could ask that soul to help him or her, before the soul dissipates back into nothingness (maintaining new life is incredibly difficult... often it is not self-sustaning and but momentary or reliant on the monk's soul's concentration). Thus could the monk acheive what the wizard and psion can do, such as form pillars of earth or gusts of wind or even slow time down - by giving reality and objects life, and asking them to assist the monk.

I've always felt the monk should have been the last part of the trifecta - mind, body and soul. Psion, wizard, monk.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-17, 08:45 PM
I know that the d6 hit die is a drop, and it's not a full BAB, but I think that the abilities of the class will more than make up for those.

Martial Artist:
Hit die: d6
Skills: 6+Int (x4 lvl 1): Autohypnosis, Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Speak Language, Spot, Swim, Tumble
BAB: 3/4
Saves: all good
Proficiencies: Simple Weapons, Exotic Weapons, Armor, and Shields (except tower)


Sidebar Special:
1: AC bonus (Ex): At 1st, 4th, and every 4 levels thereafter you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC (+6 at level 20) so long as: you are not denied your Dex bonus and are not encumbered. This bonus cannot exceed the Dex bonus allowed by equipped armor.
1/4/8/etc: Unarmed Strike: See chart for details.
3/6/9/etc: Fast Movement (land) (Ex): Each stage of advancement of this ability is a additional 10 feet of base movement speed.


Special:
1: Flurry of Blows (Ex): full round or standard action
1: Versatile Unarmed Strike (Ex): A free action, declared at the beginning of your turn, a monk's unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.


The 7 schools of maneuvers are going to be tied to attributes and inspired by real world studies with a "magic" feel:

Disciplines:
General
Strength(Muay Tai, Grappling)
Dexterity(JKD, Parkour)
Constitution(Boxing, Yoga)
Intelligence(Krav Maga, No-Jutsu)
Wisdom(Aikido, Tai Chi)
Charisma(Capoeira, Savate)


Also, what sorts of enhancements would monks need for unarmed attacks? The usual line of +1 to +5, or elemental and whatnot abilities? I was thinking of making the class functional without magic equipment.

Squash Monster
2008-03-17, 09:39 PM
The only enhancements to his unarmed attacks that a monk needs is various ways to overcome damage reduction. Versatile Unarmed Strike is a good start, try making it overcome more and more kinds of damage reduction as they go up in level.

Really, the damage does not matter nearly so much as mobility. Give them a way to sneak past battlefield control spells (for example, a monk-only swift-action tumble check to get the effects of Freedom Of Movement for a round) and a way to counter teleportation (allowed to follow teleports within x feet, for example) and flight (the insane jump check idea works fine).

Some of the schools on your school list seem very out of place, for instance Yoga and Parkour aren't combat styles, while JKD and Krav Maga seem out of place being associated with a stat. Because everyone needs to toss in their two cents: my suggestions would be:
Strength (Catch Wrestling, Jiu-jitsu)
Dexterity (Taekwondo, Boxing)
Constitution (Yiquan, Muay Tai)
Intelligence (Xingyiquan, Judo)
Wisdom (T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Aikido)
Charisma (Bagauazhang, Capoeira)

Everyman
2008-03-17, 09:55 PM
What I find most disappointing about the monk class is their high MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency) value. For most classes, it is important to raise two, maybe three ability scores over the course of the game (and even then, not evenly). This does not hold true for monks. The only dump stat they have is Charisma. Every other ability score they have usually needs to be at least a 10 (Intelligence and Strength), they usually need at least two or three scores of at least 14 to remain effective (Dexterity, Wisdom, and Constitution). The only other class with this kind of MAD is the paladin (but that's a whole 'nother can of worms).

To make a monk work, we would need to break down the very fundamentals of the class and develop roles, based on the goals each role would achieve. For a good example of this, I would invite you all to look at the monk fighting styles in Unearthed Arcana. In a nutshell, these variants grant certain powers by requiring the monks to follow a preset group of feats. You end up with monks that are very different from one another. In that spirit, I go back to the above paragraph. Why would a monk who specializes in shrugging of assaults to his body have the same ability score dependencies of a quick, springy monk? If you think about it, they really shouldn't.

I don't have time tonight to go through all the class features and suggestions to help build these new mechanics. However, I will ask that you consider how the monks' fighting styles tie in with their mechanics and MAD. Whatever it decided upon, it ultimately should clear up the MAD issues and give the monks their purpose by virtue of what ability scores they have and what "school" they pursue. In short, we should give them a choice of features at each level that are influenced by their ability scores and shape their roles. To give the class "monk" one role would be a very poor idea, I think.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-17, 11:26 PM
I'm in the middle of a huge homebrew project to replace the 3.5 blight with something a bit more ToBesque and I've hit a spell where I'm in need of inspiration. What abilities would an unarmed fighter need to have to keep pace with non-Batman'd casters?

Go Swordsage monk variant or mix it up with the base monk to personal taste.

Gestalt the base Monk class with the Adept NPC class.

Give the base Monk class the Variant Psychic Rogue PP and Powers based on Wisdom (Psychic Rogue is a Wizard's Web Article)

Mix up the first six levels:

Rogue -1, Monk -3, Dragon Shaman -1 (For the auras) or Marshal -1 (Motivate Aura Wisdom).

Throw in a PRC like Fist of Zouken -10 or War Mind for some mental based powers.

X-4 or 5 to personal taste (Maybe some more Sneak Attack with Ascetic Rogue or Prestige Paladin levels or Swordsage levels at -1, 5, 10, 15, 20 with +1 Initiator levels at each level).

Draz74
2008-03-18, 12:48 AM
I've made two Monk fixes that I think are fairly decent. This time, I'll suggest this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60060), which says, "to work, a Monk needs ... Psychic Warrior powers! (But only a limited version of them, and only the ones that are flavor-appropriate.)"

Ramza00
2008-03-18, 12:53 AM
Monk 1/Psychic Warrior 19
Using Tashaltorta Feat from Secrets of Sarlona.

Using some of the Psychic Warrior Bonus feats for expanded knowledge, grabbing some formerly spells that are converted into powers thanks to Arcane Erudites spell to power option. Namely wraithstrike and greater mighty wallop.

Also use some of those feats to grab twf.

Solo
2008-03-18, 12:54 AM
Monk 1/Psychic Warrior 11
Using Tashaltorta Feat from Secrets of Sarlona.

Using some of the Psychic Warrior Bonus feats for expanded knowledge, grabbing some formerly spells that are converted into powers thanks to Arcane Erudites spell to power option. Namely wraithstrike and greater mighty wallop.

Also use some of those feats to grab twf.

That's no monk; that's a space station!

Chronicled
2008-03-18, 01:13 AM
Hmmm... now that I see Solo here, I realize that the easiest way to make a monk work is to give him full spellcasting. And the easiest way to do that is to give Hennet or Mialee a pair of nunchucks.

Sir Giacomo
2008-03-18, 08:06 AM
I'm in the middle of a huge homebrew project to replace the 3.5 blight with something a bit more ToBesque and I've hit a spell where I'm in need of inspiration. What abilities would an unarmed fighter need to have to keep pace with non-Batman'd casters?

Keep up with caster abilities in combat:
- some form of immunity to magic (for instance, good saves, spell resistance, evasion)
- faster movement to wait out temporary spells and control the range to opponent spellcaster (tumbling as class skill would also help to avoid AoO on the way to attack a spellcaster)
- ways to recognise spells and magic
- use of some magic to counter magic (including supernatural abilities for escape that are non-dispellable/counterable)
- ways to use concealment (hide/move silently as class skills would be a good start)
- ways to get tactical edge (better initiative, spot/listen as class skills would be good)
- ways to get higher unarmed damage than normal (special additional effects would also be nice)

Keep up with caster abilities outside combat:
- social skills (diplomacy would be nice)
- stealth for scouting
- ability to use some research magic

Hmmm...now doesn't this sound familiar...what class has all this? Hmmm. Can't remember.:smallbiggrin:
But since you mentioned ToB already, the easiest answer is: unarmed swordsage variant!

- Giacomo

Kioran
2008-03-18, 08:31 AM
I had planned (for my Homebrew) to separate weapon proficiencies from skills and Feats - every gains basic and martial proficiencies, some gain advanced proficiencies later on. What does that have to do with a monk,you ask?

This allows you to provide the monk with a quasi-magical attack, better than Ki-strike. A monk needs this, to hit in the first place and to overcome DR. So, a basic Proficiency makes "unarmed strikes" available, for 1d4 damage, while the martial proficiency (always an upgrade of the basic ones) nets you a d6 and counting as armed. Later on, you could make advanced proficiencies improve the die-size, grant the fists a +1 enhancement bonus or align them (one of these for each proficiency). Also, advanced Proficiencies can be spent for weapon specialization (+2 to damage, per default. Can be taken multiple times and stacks. Alternately, a monk could specialize in other weapons as well (well, in my homebrew, one can build quasi-monks from three classes anyway.....)

But hey, this assumes some other changes as well, so I don´t know if it works for you.

Telonius
2008-03-18, 08:40 AM
I'm sure I've posted some similar suggestions before, but here goes.

So, what should monks be ...

- Specialized in unarmed and Asia-esque combat.
- Tacticians. They should be good at moving around the battlefield, disarming, tripping, grappling.
- Hard to hit. They should be able to dodge out of the way of things.
- Speedy and mobile.
- Not able to be outdone at tactics by an appropriately-feated Fighter.

So, what to do.

- Full BAB.
- Ability to enhance fists (as weapons) and body (as armor/shield).
- Get all of the six tactics feats as bonus feats, instead of having to choose three of them (Imp Grapple, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Imp Disarm, Imp Trip).
- Treat the size adjustment as being 4 more than it is for grapple checks, trip attempts, etc (Ex.: Small monk gets a size bonus of +0, Medium gets +4, Large gets +8, and so on).
- Monk only: A monk attempting a disarm always counts as wielding a 2h weapon. (This could be scaled up gradually, depending on what level you give the Monk Imp Disarm).
- Stunning Fist DC = 10 + monk level + 1/2 other class level + Wis modifier.
- Abundant step = level/4 per day.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 08:43 AM
Hmmm...now doesn't this sound familiar...what class has all this? Hmmm. Can't remember.:smallbiggrin:

It's called a "cleric".

Roderick_BR
2008-03-18, 09:02 AM
I agree with the unarmed Swordsage variant. He has enough abilities to keep him interesting on the table, keep him up with wizards a bit, and with the right maneuvers choices, he can be useful without stepping on other's roles. For example, if there is already fighters an barbarians in game, you could go the setting sun route for throws and movement, instead of using stone dragon or tiger claw for damage.
The only downside is learning and keeping track of the maneuvers, but I always thought the monk should be more mystic anyway.


Solo, for Falcon Punch, do the following: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Fists of Iron (CWar), and Fiery Fist (PH2). You just won't have the sonic damage, but you could use some strike from ToB to deal more damage, maybe some boost, like Stone Dragon. Maybe replace Fiery Fist with some Desert Wind maneuver.

Sir Giacomo
2008-03-18, 09:14 AM
It's called a "cleric".

The lame duck cleric? No...I was actually thinking about the druid!:smallamused:

- Giacomo

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-18, 02:14 PM
This is getting a lot more feedback than I was hoping to manage. What all abilities would a monk need to have if they were forbidden from using magic items at all? There is a lot of talk of anti-magic abilities, and enhancements to mobility, and I'm getting the message loud and clear on that front. Anything else come to mind? In any case, thanks for the concepts to take into account guys. I'm still recovering from the brain damage brought about from my wreck in Oct, so I can't think quite as clearly as I once could. I really do appeciate the brainstorming help.

As an aside, stunning fist dies in this brew and gets reincarnated:

Str:
2: Stunning Blow (Ex): On a successful hit, target creature makes a Fort save (DC = 10 + 1/2 class level + Str mod) or be stunned for 1 round. (Blitz)

4: Stunning Blow, Improved (Ex): On a successful hit, target creature and all creatures adjacent to the target creature (you are immune to this effect) make a Fort save (DC = 10 + 1/2 class level + Str mod) or be stunned for 1 round. (Blitz)


New Maneuver:
Blitz: Blitzes are maneuvers that function like Strikes except that they enhance individual attacks instead of being triggered by standard or full round actions. Thus every attack can be made as a Blitz, even attacks of opportunity. A Blitz, however, cannot be used with a Strike or Counter maneuver.

Chronicled
2008-03-18, 02:44 PM
If a monk is really supposed to be an anti-caster...

How about a sculpted antimagic field centered on the monk (but excluding his square), a number of times per day? So if he actually got to a batman caster, he wouldn't have to try the "Grapple them into ineffectiveness! Wait, Freedom of Movement?" route. There's all sorts of fun things you could do with a sculpted antimagic field on command.

In that same vein of thought, Getting Dispel/Greater Dispel as a supernatural ability would make the monk a lot more useful. Same with Disjunction.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-18, 02:50 PM
SCULPTED AMF DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY![/morbo]

Really, it doesn't. AMF suppresses spells which resume when they leave it's area, so the areas around the monk would be immune to magic, but he could still be hit with Black Tentacles fairly easily, even if his allies were immune.

Chronicled
2008-03-18, 03:06 PM
SCULPTED AMF DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY![/morbo]

Really, it doesn't. AMF suppresses spells which resume when they leave it's area, so the areas around the monk would be immune to magic, but he could still be hit with Black Tentacles fairly easily, even if his allies were immune.

:smallannoyed:

Wow, someone didn't bother reading my post. Did I describe a situation in which a sculpted AMF is used incorrectly? No.

I just said it could be useful against casters, and in general. For example, removing all sorts of defensive buffs, flight, summons, etc near an enemy wizard until the rest of the party can engage them. Or, if you were playing in Eberron, you could do some massive property damage.

And as it was just an idea, I could easily amend it to "an antimagic field on command that doesn't affect the monk's abilities or magic items."

Indon
2008-03-18, 03:21 PM
If you want a Monk with supernatural powers without having a Monk with what are, mechanically, spells (like a Swordsage or Psionic Warrior), you could give them an Invocation progression ala the Warlock.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 04:25 PM
If you want a Monk with supernatural powers without having a Monk with what are, mechanically, spells (like a Swordsage or Psionic Warrior), you could give them an Invocation progression ala the Warlock.

Except that those are, mechanically, spells that you can cast as often as you like.

13_CBS
2008-03-18, 04:44 PM
I made a Homebrewed Monk somewhere on the Homebrew boards. This Monk's main purposes were:

Move around quickly
Shut people down
Hit stuff--not quite as well as, say, a full BAB class, but it still can attack as many times as a full BAB class can, without flurry.
[tooting own horn]http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70974[/tooting own horn]

Indon
2008-03-18, 05:15 PM
Except that those are, mechanically, spells that you can cast as often as you like.

Not quite, they're Spell-like Abilities - like Abundant Step and Empty Body.

And a number of them have a good feel for an asian-style martial artist - Flee the Scene seems ripped straight out of Dragonball if you give it to the Monk, ditto with Baleful Utterance. You'd want to rename them, of course - Baleful Utterance is probably better called a Kiai (I think that's the right term), for instance.

In fact, lemme just page through the Invocation list in Complete Arcane and pick out the ones that would be perfect for Monks, possibly with reflavoring and definitely with renaming.

Baleful Utterance (I recommend renaming it to 'Kiai')
Dark Foresight
Devil's Sight
Entropic Warding (This one's _very_ anime-styled)
Flee the Scene
Leaps and Bounds
See the Unseen
Spiderwalk
Voidsense

And if you make the simple houserule that after obtaining Ki Strike, the Monk's unarmed attack is a magical weapon similar to an Eldritch Blast (giving it an effective spell level - and a save DC for associated effects - in addition to its' exceptional damage), these additional invocations become applicable towards affecting the Monk's unarmed attack (with appropriate reflavoring and renaming, of course):

Bewitching Blast
Brimstone Blast
Hellrime Blast
Noxous Blast
Repelling Blast (I really like this one)
Sickening Blast
Utterdark Blast (evil monks, at least)
Vitriolic Blast (...maybe. Eh)

Edit: Save DC's would be Wisdom-based, of course.

lord_khaine
2008-03-18, 05:17 PM
in a core game something like enchantet gauntlets would be fine, outside that i was thinking giving them access to a single ToB dicipline should do.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-21, 12:37 PM
The idea was to make whole new schools for monks, not use the ToB ones. >_>

Reel On, Love
2008-03-21, 12:55 PM
The idea was to make whole new schools for monks, not use the ToB ones. >_>

Why? The existing ones already fit just fine.

Frosty
2008-03-21, 12:56 PM
Keep up with caster abilities in combat:
- some form of immunity to magic (for instance, good saves, spell resistance, evasion)
- faster movement to wait out temporary spells and control the range to opponent spellcaster (tumbling as class skill would also help to avoid AoO on the way to attack a spellcaster)
- ways to recognise spells and magic
- use of some magic to counter magic (including supernatural abilities for escape that are non-dispellable/counterable)
- ways to use concealment (hide/move silently as class skills would be a good start)
- ways to get tactical edge (better initiative, spot/listen as class skills would be good)
- ways to get higher unarmed damage than normal (special additional effects would also be nice)

Keep up with caster abilities outside combat:
- social skills (diplomacy would be nice)
- stealth for scouting
- ability to use some research magic

Hmmm...now doesn't this sound familiar...what class has all this? Hmmm. Can't remember.:smallbiggrin:
But since you mentioned ToB already, the easiest answer is: unarmed swordsage variant!

- Giacomo

Faster movement to run away would be good if you are alone. If you run away while your 20ft movement speed dwarf friend is left hanging, your allies won't want to be friends with you for long. The enemy doesn't have to pay attention to you because you're not a threat. They'll go ahead and smack something else.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-21, 03:26 PM
Why? The existing ones already fit just fine.

The concept is for each attribute to have a related school in addition to a general one that is purely based on level. What I had in mind was to take the monk's MAD and roll with it in such a way as to make it just as useful to have good stats across the board as it is to have one or two that are spiked. I haven't worked it all out yet, but the theory I was going to playtest would have: Str and Int affect atk/dmg, Dex and Wis affect atk/ac, Con and Cha affect ac/hp. In this way, a monk could be a Dex/Int build that works like a ninja, a Con/Cha "Iron Skin" tank, a one who seeks true perfection of the self by balancing all the stats out. I'm not sure if I could make it work or not, but it would make the monk class rediculously flexable and allow for different builds to fill unique roles.

Chronos
2008-03-21, 03:37 PM
They are better at attacking at range since their class tends to invite high DEX scores.I see arguments like this often, but they confuse the cause and effect. It makes no more sense to say that monks are good at ranged attacks because they have high dex scores than it does to say that they have lots of skill points because they have high int scores. If monks received a bonus to their dex, then this argument would be valid, but as it is, a monk wants high dex because (among other things) it improves ranged attacks. A fighter might also want good ranged attacks (and AC, and reflex save), in which case the fighter could put just as much into dex as the monk does, and be just as good as the monk at ranged attacks. Well, significantly better, actually, since the fighter gets a higher BAB and is proficient with better ranged weapons.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-21, 04:18 PM
I have yet to finish the rough draft of the class, but the goal was to have 6 attribute based schools in addition to the default (level based) school that all monks get at level 1. The goal was to make it so that the monk class can have many builds, each that fills a certain role. A monk focused on the Dex and Int schools, for example, could have a "ninja" feel and serve as a scout and damage dealer. The goal right now is to turn the monk's current MAD into a viable build option. Str/Int both up atk/dmg, Dex/Wis up atk/ac, Con/Cha up ac/hp. None of this has yet to be tested mind you, but we'll see how it starts to pan out the longer this project drags out. I'm guessing I'll end up having to modify things to match 4th ed by the time the class really takes form though. Pity.

Talya
2008-03-22, 03:19 PM
Here's a few things that monks need in order to be viable, without drasticly changing the focus or feel of the class.

Removal of MAD. Ideally, the monk would add wisdom to hit and damage (in addition to their normal modifiers.)

Perfect Self needs to be a low level ability that adds new DR types as they level up.

Ability to enchant their body as weapons, up to the normal +10 total bonus (including special abilities) of any weapon, without using up an item slot. All the better if this is a natural process of levelling up, like Kensai, Samurai (OA version), or an "Ancestral Relic" (BoED). Ki strike also needs to let monks treat their natural weapons as any material they designate (full round action to "attune" probably) for the purpose of breaking DR. Alternately, a monk should be able to do their full unarmed damage with any special monk weapon they weild.

More favorable BAB chart. (I'm actually partial to going with 3.0's 15/12/9/6/3 over full 20/15/10/5, but either works.) This is in addition to flurry.

Monks should get ALL the bonus feats that they get choices to take from levels 1-6.

More uses of special abilities: Quivering Palm should be once per day. Abundant Step should be once per 4 monk levels (3 at 12, 4 at 16, 5 at 20) per day. Wholeness of Body should be Monk Level * Wisdom Modifier.

An actual useful level 20 capstone ability to replace perfect self, which is long obsolete by 20.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-22, 04:53 PM
Alright, this is an update on the draft of initial monk abilities according to the suggestions given. I have pages of notes, but here's most of what one would need to know at level 1 (maneuver information is withheld):

Martial Artist:
Hit die: d6
Skills: 6+Int (x4 lvl 1): Autohypnosis, Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Speak Language, Spot, Swim, Tumble
BAB: 1/1
Saves: all good
Proficiencies: Simple, Improvised, and Monk Weapons: See chart for details.


Sidebar Special:
1: AC bonus (Ex): Gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to (1 + ¼ class level) so long as you are not denied your Dex bonus and are not equipped with armor or a shield.
1/4/8/etc: Unarmed Strike: See chart for details.
Path of Perfection: Gain an Enhancement bonus to your body and extremities (separately) equal to ½ your monk level rounded down.

(Natural enhancements only apply to unarmed strikes, whereas unarmed strike damage is in addition to equipped weapon damage.)

Special:
1: Flurry of Blows (Ex): full round or standard action
1: Versatile Unarmed Strike (Ex): A monk can declare, as a free action, that their unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.


Again, thank you all for putting in your two cents. It has been really helpful in getting this concept off the ground and balancing it.

P.S. Tayla, on a totally unrelated subject, your relationship is an inspiration. As part of a polyam relationship myself, it's a HUGE comfort to know that it can in fact work.

Talya
2008-03-22, 04:58 PM
Hadrian: That AC bonus is a major step backwards for the monk. I'd return it to it's original form...the monk AC bonus is great because it generally is 9-14 points at level 20 that applies both to flatfooted and touch AC.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-22, 05:02 PM
O_o I've misplaced my PHB and I was attemptng to remember how it was. >_> Could you remind me?

tyckspoon
2008-03-22, 05:06 PM
O_o I've misplaced my PHB and I was attemptng to remember how it was. >_> Could you remind me?

The difference is the PHB version gives the flat level-based bonus to AC plus allows the monk to take his Wis bonus to AC. Removing Wis from the AC bonus could be part of an attempt to reduce the Monk's MAD, if you can decide on another attribute for the other special abilities to key off, or it could just be an oversight. :smallwink:

Edit: Although the AC difference could be made up by the Monk using half of his body enhancement allotment for basic +5.. er, skin. The Wis bonus was still a more useful class of AC, tho.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-22, 05:18 PM
If that is the dif, it's no problem. The rough idea is for a monk to slowly master his own mind and body in this homebrew. As such, he gains bonuses like AC as a constant benefit of gaining abilities from a school related to an AC bonus attribute. I'll use this setup to explain:

Disciplines:
General
Strength +attack/damage
Dexterity +attack/ac
Constitution +ac/hp
Intelligence +attack/+damage
Wisdom +attack/ac
Charisma +ac/hp

This incarnation of the monk class can gain maneuvers from the general school in addition to a single chosen school at level 1. At level 4, and every 4 thereafter, the monk gains access to the maneuver list and related modifier benefits of an additional school. This pattern finishes at level 20, when you have mastered yourself.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-22, 05:34 PM
Although I seem to have come too late, I'd like to say that the monk could easily have a role in combat: Hunting the squishies. That is, he's fast, and hard to kill quickly, but he doesn't have much attack power. Therefore, simply make sure he has the speed and damage needed to quickly locate and take out wizards, archers, etc.

So then we've got:

Meat Shields (fighters, barbarians, heavily armored clerics)
Glass Cannons (wizards, sorcerers, archers)
Sonic Boom (Monk)

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-22, 05:42 PM
The squishy killer is a common role of monks in games where they are used. If the first three selected schools of study for a monk were Dex, Con, and Wis. They would fill that role by virtue of their choice of personal growth. -of course, this build would be 8 levels in the making. :smallbiggrin:

Chronicled
2008-03-22, 05:49 PM
Therefore, simply make sure he has the speed and damage needed to quickly locate and take out wizards, archers, etc.

He also needs ways to counter every magical defense out there. Flight, improved detection abilities (I like the thought of blindsense/sight), ways to evade entrapment, and a way to actually shut down casters. Antimagic field for a number of rounds per day or some such to shut down all a caster's magical defenses.

The problem as a DM that I have with this sort of class is the same that I have with the Spellthief and Ranger: if I don't have a certain number of a particular enemy type in the campaign, that player gets ticked. At least with a Ranger, they can ask ahead of time for good favored enemies. When I had a Spellthief in a series of modules I was running, he complained frequently about the lack of casters (who were supposed to be pretty rare in the setting).

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-22, 06:06 PM
He also needs ways to counter every magical defense out there. Flight, improved detection abilities (I like the thought of blindsense/sight), ways to evade entrapment, and a way to actually shut down casters. Antimagic field for a number of rounds per day or some such to shut down all a caster's magical defenses.

The problem as a DM that I have with this sort of class is the same that I have with the Spellthief and Ranger: if I don't have a certain number of a particular enemy type in the campaign, that player gets ticked. At least with a Ranger, they can ask ahead of time for good favored enemies. When I had a Spellthief in a series of modules I was running, he complained frequently about the lack of casters (who were supposed to be pretty rare in the setting).

In response to the first part of your post, I have a really evil rough draft of a 9th level strike that is a Will save or be under the effects of an antimagic field with a range of personal, for a time. The second half of the post isn't much of a worry since the number of roles the class can fill grows with the class itself.

Arbitrarity
2008-03-22, 07:22 PM
Touch range Antimagic Ray? Nasty.

Chronicled
2008-03-22, 08:12 PM
Touch range Antimagic Ray? Nasty.

And cool, to boot. Can it be used on non-living things? Not just undead and the like, but buildings/stand-alone items/etc. I love the idea of a monk in Eberron punching an airship's elemental bond and sending it crashing down.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-22, 08:23 PM
It can be used on anything in this current draft. That may be changed as the class is tested though. As much as I am looking to make the class flexable and fun I'm also aware that there is a need for balance. :smallsmile:

Jarawara
2008-03-22, 08:38 PM
I saw the thread title, 'What does a Monk need, to work?', and an immediate response sprang to my mind.

A Job.


I hear there's a Starbucks opening up in a campaign near you. He could get a job as barista. Flurry of Espresso, anyone? Double Tall Unarmed Strike?

*~*

Yes, I get this way when I'm low on caffeine.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-22, 09:16 PM
The combination of a high movement speed and superior use of one's hands would look great on an application for a food industry position indeed. :smallamused:

dspeyer
2008-03-23, 04:26 PM
I like the idea of monks being the ultimate in movement. It fits flavor well, and it's useful. Let's try this, at every even level, a monk either gains a lesser excellence in a type of movement, or upgrades an existing lesser to a greater (if she already has the lesser from some other source, she may jump directly to the greater).

Excellences:

Climbing:
Lesser: you gain a climb speed half your move
Greater: your climb speed doubles. You can climb sheer surfaces without handholds (dc 30)

Swimming:
Lesser: you gain a swim speed half your move
Greater: your swim speed doubles. You gain a +40 bonus to swimming up waterfalls

Tumbling:
Lesser: you can always take ten on tumbling checks
Greater: you ignore penalties to tumble checks for terrain or accelerated tumbling

Balancing:
Lesser: you can always take ten on balance checks and do not become flat-footed
Greater: you gain a +8 bonus to all balance checks

Leaping:
Lesser: you gain a +8 bonus to jump checks and can always take ten on them
Greater: after jumping off a solid surface, you gain a fly speed of half your base speed with perfect manoeuvrability for a number of rounds equal to your monk level

Ghosting:
Lesser: you may become ethereal for one round, once a day
Greater: both the number of rounds and the times per day become equal to your monk level

Sneaking:
Lesser: you gain +4 to hide and move silently
Greater: you gain hide-in-plain-sight

Striking:
Lesser: you gain spring attack as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites
Greater: you may move half your speed and make a full attack in one round

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-25, 02:29 PM
The concept is evolving at a scary rate:

Restriction: May not use magic items.
Martial Artist:
Hit die: d6
Skills: 6+Int (x4 lvl 1): Autohypnosis, Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Speak Language, Spot, Swim, Tumble
BAB: 1/1
Saves: all good
Proficiencies: Simple, Improvised, and Martial Artist Weapons: See chart for details.


Sidebar Special:
Path of Perfection (Su): Gain a separate Enhancement bonus to both your body and your collective extremities, each equal to ½ your martial artist level rounded down. (Enhancement bonuses gained by levels in this class only apply to unarmed strikes and equipped, non-magical, weapons. Improvised and non-masterwork weapons gain these enhancements as if they were masterwork.)
Maneuvers: Gain 2 every odd level and 1 every even one. Can exchange one Maneuver known for another you qualify for each level.

Special:
1: Belt: White
4: Belt: Yellow
8: Belt: Orange
12: Belt: Red
16: Belt: Brown
20: Belt: Black

Belts:
White: Unarmed Strike d6, Attribute Style, Technique, Dodge bonus +1
Yellow: Unarmed Strike d8, Attribute Style -4, Technique, Dodge bonus +2
Orange: Unarmed Strike d10, Attribute Style –8, Technique, Dodge bonus +3
Red: Unarmed Strike 2d6, Attribute Style –12, Technique, Dodge bonus +4
Brown: Unarmed Strike 2d8, Attribute Style –16, Technique, Dodge bonus +5
Black: Unarmed Strike 2d10, Attribute Style –20, Technique, Dodge bonus +6

Degrees of Black Belt:
First Degree: 1 Stripe: 2 Attribute styles at or above level 20
Second Degree: 2 Stripes: 3 Attribute styles at or above level 20
Third Degree: 3 Stripes: 4 Attribute styles at or above level 20
Fourth Degree: 4 Stripes: 5 Attribute styles at or above level 20
Master: 5 Stripes: 6 Attribute styles at or above level 20

(Dodge bonus: Gain a dodge bonus to AC so long as you are not denied your Dex bonus and are not equipped with armor or a shield.)
(Unarmed Strike damage is done in addition to the damage done by equipped weapons.)


Techniques: (I have at least three more to prepare.)
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Full round or standard action with extra traits based on class level.
Living Weapon (EX): Your Unarmed Strike is treated as a two-handed weapon.
Versatile Unarmed Strike (Ex): Declare, as a free action, that your Unarmed Strike deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.


Improvised Weapons (typical):
Light: d4 x2
One Handed: d6 x2
Two Handed: d8 x2
(Items can take on additional traits depending on their nature and how they are used. A grappling hook might behave like a weak spiked chain or a broken piece of glass might have a slightly higher threat range.)


Styles:
General Dodge bonus
Strength +attack/damage
Dexterity +attack/ac
Constitution +ac/hp
Intelligence +attack/+damage
Wisdom +attack/ac
Charisma +ac/hp

(Upon gaining a Style, you are immediately granted the passive bonuses provided by having a positive score on the related attribute. For example: A White Belt with a +4 Con mod (and 10 for every other attribute) that selects Constitution as his first Attribute Style would have 10hp, an AC of 15 and a touch AC of 11.


Martial Artist Feats:
Martial Prodigy:
Prerequisites: Belt: White
Benefit: Are treated as being one level higher than normal for the purpose of determining the Mastery level of your Attribute Styles. Your Mastery of Attribute Styles cannot exceed your Mastery of your General Style.
Note: This feat can be taken multiple times.

(Styles cross over in the form of advanced maneuvers. Also a Martial Artist’s Style Level is half their class level rounded up. Attribute Styles, learned after the first, have penalties based on the level in which they are learned. These can be offset by the Martial Prodigy feat. For an example of how this works: if the first chosen Attribute Style for a level 5 Martial Artist is Strength and his second is Dexterity, his Style Levels would be Gen 3, Str 3, Dex 1. If he had taken the Prodigy feat at levels 1 and 3, his Style Levels would be Gen 3, Str 3, Dex 2)