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MammonAzrael
2008-03-17, 01:47 AM
What're your thoughts on the book? I like the flavor behind it, but the options it presents seem...lackluster. And I've gathered through browsing that the classes are generally considered on the low end power-wise. Is this because soulmelds are inherently weak? Because most of their class features can be duplicated with magic items (and often more effectively)? Because of the book's reliance on the issue-ridden alignment system? Or something else entirely?

Has anyone taken a crack at "fixing" the classes, adding more powerful soulmelds, etc? What would you suggest for fixes?

Or am I just completely missing something awesome about them?

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-17, 01:53 AM
Incarnum is a tricky class. It also isn't very intuitive in what it does. It is very flexible though. Shape Soulmeld flat out better than a lot of feats, also. There is a soulmeld that gives you diehard, for example (actually, slightly better than diehard).

sonofzeal
2008-03-17, 01:57 AM
The advantage of Incarnum is its sheer flexibility - by shifting essentia rapidly, you can be far more flexible than 90% of your teammates, and always have the right ability for the job. Totemists, Binders, and Factota are probably the three most flexible classes in the game that don't rely on 9th lvl spellcasting.

That said... I'm not a big fan of Incarnum. The book is cool and unique, but in setting out to do something that nobody had ever done before, WotC made it rather difficult to conceptualize for the newcomer, because we lack reference points. Having soulmelds on a chakra, but not bound to a chakra? What's that all about?

Long story short, I see Incarnum as a nice way to make a utility character, or a "dip" option to plug some gaping hole in your build. It's got nothing on pure casters, but it's distinctive and, most importantly, rather fun to play.

Dode
2008-03-17, 02:11 AM
Agree with you 1/3 of the way.

The Incarnate is kind of weak at anything it does, but it can function as a decent anything at a moment's notice, including UMD. It has a lot of interesting and subtle abilities like Lucky Dice and class abilities like Incarnum Radiance which are grossly underestimated.

The Totemist however is to D&D what a Blue Mage is to Final Fantasy, getting access to some of the most exotic and spectacular attack forms in the game short of Polymorph. Some of the grossest and most versatile combat builds I've ever seen can be made by a dedicated combat Totemist. Girallion Arms + Sphinx Claws + Heart of Fire and Multiattack feat for example (with a level dip in Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce) for an example.

Soulborn, although the only Incarnum class with a full BAB, is by far the weakest of the Incarnum classes imo. It's a weakling Paladin that doesn't even get a single soulmeld until level 4, no Essentia to put into the soulmeld into 6, no chakra binds until 8. Rivals Samurai in terms of class appeal.

Xefas
2008-03-17, 02:12 AM
I...have mixed feelings.

The flavor is good, but most of the time I just take that flavor and stick it onto a character with a class that is actually worth something.

"This guy pulls forth the souls of the damned and binds them to his armor. As he rides into battle, the very metal shrieks and spasms. An almost palpable-"
"You're actually using the Incarnate?!"
"Hellz no, he's just a Crusader."

The main problem is that the game is so dependent on magic items to put you to the proper power level for fighting the corresponding CR encounters that an extra +1 on Decipher Script checks on Thursdays during the hours of 3am-9am when you're prone and wearing blue socks just doesn't equal whatever you could be using the magic item slot for.

In addition, save for the Totemist, the Soulmelds don't get you many more (if any) options in battle. So, even if you took out the quirk that you can't wear a Soulmeld and a Magic Item in the same slot, all the Incarnates and Soulborns are more than likely going to have the fighter syndrome of "I charge, I attack, I move I attack, I move I attack, I move I attack." I'd rather play a Truenamer :smallannoyed: , at least they get some variety.

I've tried created an improved Incarnum class, but partway through I realized that my players probably don't care, and any NPCs I want to use Incarnum will just use Incarnum and be a different class. Oh well...

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-17, 02:16 AM
Don't make the mistake of thinking that Incarnum classes are underpowered. The Incarnate can do some crazy things, and then tomorrow, he can do some other crazy thing.

given the chief complaint about fighters vs. wizards is that wizards get to change out their class features every day, and fighters can't, that is nothing to sneeze at.

Talic
2008-03-17, 02:24 AM
Looking at this book and trying to figure it out gave me a headache.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-17, 02:29 AM
I like the mechanic of Essentia. I am currently working on a spellcasting system that invest mana into spells, using a derived mechanic.

Talic
2008-03-17, 02:34 AM
In order for me to do that, I'd need to learn the mechanic.

For example, Soulmelds take up magic item slots? Yes/No? Or was it chakra?

Essentia ponts are allocated HOW?

Do everyday average non MoI characters have none of any of the above?

There's just so much about this book that's groundbreaking that it comes off as... well... alien to the system.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-17, 02:40 AM
It is indeed very alien. Soulmelds do not take up magic item slots, unless they are bound to a chakra, in which case they do. It is a swift action to change how your essentia is split between your soulmelds. Various soulmelds give additional benefits based on this.

Non MoI characters use none of the above, barring GM fiat.

Zincorium
2008-03-17, 03:00 AM
Honestly, the only class in the book I can really see myself playing is the totemist.

The problem is that none of the soulbinding classes can fill any role in the party except tank. They don't have the massive library of utility the wizard has, or the healing/buffing of the cleric, and not a one of them has trapfinding or more than int+4 skill points.

Soulborn start off very slowly, and while they're better than fighters by a bit at high levels, they're still well short of most PrCs at high levels.

Incarnates are just meh. They've got the attack bonus of a wizard, the hit points of a rogue, and no solid offensive power. At 20th level, they've got nothing more dangerous than the spells on an 8th level wizard. I'd wager a warlock could beat them senseless in a fight, and warlocks have greater out of combat versatility. You know something's wrong when you can't out-compete a warlock at something.

Really, I don't think there's anything wrong with the system that couldn't be solved with varying the power and accessibility of the soulmelds, so that at 20th level you're not looking at the same choices you have back at 1st level (they've got this problem worse than fighters do).

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-17, 03:03 AM
Incarnates are absolutely awesome. They can do skill monkey, they can do tank, they can do healer (mediocrily), and the best part is - they can do something else tomorrow.

Here is a useful link: Incarnate by the Numbers (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=574633)

ZeroNumerous
2008-03-17, 03:53 AM
To be fair: They can heal. They just use UMD to do so.

Zincorium
2008-03-17, 04:24 AM
Incarnates are absolutely awesome. They can do skill monkey, they can do tank, they can do healer (mediocrily), and the best part is - they can do something else tomorrow.

Here is a useful link: Incarnate by the Numbers (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=574633)

While do agree that the incarnate can theoretically do the skill monkey (I was unaware that theft gloves actually gave trapfinding until I looked it up), that particular part of the article left a bad, bad taste in my mouth.

It assumes the incarnate is spending all of their skill points cross-class on rogue-type skills, it handwaves the skill point totals when the particulars cause some problems, it doesn't give trapfinding until level 4 (of course no DM would put traps into a dungeon when you're level 3), and it leaves the incarnate almost totally useless for combat while the rogue is plenty ready to go, due to having no soulmeld slots or essentia left that could normally make up the difference.


Also, I did the math on the healing, and at level 19 and spending every feat except the one for healing soul on expanded essentia capacity, you can heal 484 points total per-day before you're out. At 18, that drops down to 242, 17 it's down to 162.

So the only point at which it's really any good, the game is nearly over and you've wasted all your feats making it work in the first place.


And in combat, a heavily-melee focused incarnate is about as good as a raging barbarian without all those cumbersome hit points.


All in all, I think the factotum class does a better job of the 'I'm everything' concept.