A gestalt team request

[shadeofblack]

I didn't wanna post this in the character builder threat because this is a big one and could take up too much space, also I'm not in too much of a hurry with this (I have until the weekend) so if anyone posting in that thread has more urgent character needs I wouldn't want them to be ignored as this one is a bit challenging.

anyway, I need a team of 20th level gestalt characters:

paladin/cleric
ranger/druid
fighter/sorcerer (focusing on evocation)
monk/psion
blackguard/true necromancer or dread necromancer. or could be other. you get the theme, it's the opposite of paladin/cleric so you pick.

all characters must be efficient with both magic (or powers) AND melee.

if anyone makes the time to help me out, I would be really grateful.

[AmberVael]

Do you want them optimized, well fleshed and interesting in terms of roleplay/backstory, or both?
What books do you have access to?
How do you generate ability scores?
What's the ruling on PrCs that advance multiple classes?
How much money should they have?
What races are you working with? Are level adjustments and templates allowed?
What about variant rules from Unearthed Arcana (or the SRD)?
Etc?

[playswithfire]

Need the answers to Vael's questions and, also, are you set on those specific classes or could one theoretically use ToB replacements for some of the classes? (crusader instead of paladin or unarmed swordsage instead of monk, for instance)

[shadeofblack]

*Do you want them optimized, well fleshed and interesting in terms of roleplay/backstory, or both?

I must say I spent more time focusing on the character concepts/themes more than optimizations. the sorcerer/fighter represents destruction and should be very aggressive. the monk/psion has a "oneness of body and mind" thing going on. the rest are pretty obvious with the good/light, evil/death and nature themes.

*What books do you have access to?

any book is fine.

*How do you generate ability scores?

32 point rule

*What's the ruling on PrCs that advance multiple classes?

PrCs are fine if they serve the main character concepts

*How much money should they have?

filthy rich :) without going into much detail I'll just say that they are all high lords of their own "domains".

*What races are you working with? Are level adjustments and templates allowed?

ranger/druid->elf
pal/cle, fig/sor, monk/psion -> human
necro guy -> could be human. lich would be a nice twist.

[shadeofblack]

Need the answers to Vael's questions and, also, are you set on those specific classes or could one theoretically use ToB replacements for some of the classes? (crusader instead of paladin or unarmed swordsage instead of monk, for instance)

I don't favor those variants.

[playswithfire]

No ToB, duly noted


*What's the ruling on PrCs that advance multiple classes?

PrCs are fine if they serve the main character concepts


The question is, are things like mystic theurge, that advance two distinct feature sets and are recommended to not be allowed in gestalt as they'd let you advance a total of 3 class features at once, allowed in your gestalt game.

[AmberVael]

Furthermore, if you're focusing on the fluff, and want the characters built around that... wouldn't it be a great idea to tell us what the fluff is so we can, you know, build the characters around it?

[Squash Monster]

I know you don't favor the ToB classes, but I really think that unarmed swordsage fits your description better than monk does. The Diamond Mind discipline is entirely about mind over body.

[shadeofblack]

playswithfire - mystic theurge wouldn't be a good idea because like vael stated we're focusing on the fluff and that particular PrC wouldn't go with any of the characters, but anyway the answer to your actual question is yes, any PrC that advances more than one class feature is fine as long as it contributes to the character concept.

vael - I'm still working on the fluff actually. the basics are simple

ranger/druid -> guardian of nature
paladin/cleric -> champion of good
fighter/sorcerer -> aggressive warrior
necro dude -> eeeeeevil, death, curses etc
monk/psion -> perfect unison of mind and body, think ultimate monk

squash monster - I can't seem to recall that class, but you might be right. I'll check it out. it's fluff over crunch so you guys pick whatever class represents the perfection of the body

[Duke of URL]

Monk // Psion: Sounds like Carmendine Monk is a must, to avoid yet another ability dependency. The whole mind over body vibe lends itself to the Psychometabolism discipline (Egoist). Psychic Warrior has some nice powers to pick up with Expanded Knowledge feats. No need to spend gold on armor or weapons, so lots to spend on ability boost and other miscellany. Abilities: INT max, STR/CON/DEX as good as possible, WIS/CHA dump.

{table]Level | Classes | Feat | Bonus Feat(s) | Class Features
1 | Monk 1 // Egoist 1 | FEAT | Carmendine Monk, Improved Unarmed Strike, MONK_1, Psicrystal Affinity | Flurry of Blows, AC Bonus
2 | Monk 2 // Egoist 2 | | MONK_2 | Evasion
3 | Monk 3 // Egoist 3 | FEAT | | Still Mind, Fast Movement
4 | Monk 4 // Egoist 4 | | | Ki Strike, Slow Fall
5 | Monk 5 // Egoist 5 | | PSION_5 | Purity of Body
6 | Monk 6 // Egoist 6 | FEAT | MONK_6 |
7 | Monk 7 // Egoist 7 | | | Wholeness of Body
8 | Monk 8 // Egoist 8 | | |
9 | Monk 9 // Egoist 9 | FEAT | | Improved Evasion
10 | Monk 10 // Egoist 10 | | PSION_10 |
11 | Monk 11 // Egoist 11 | | | Diamond Body
12 | Monk 12 // Egoist 12 | FEAT | | Abundant Step
13 | Monk 13 // Egoist 13 | | | Diamond Soul
14 | Monk 14 // Egoist 14 | | |
15 | Monk 15 // Egoist 15 | FEAT | PSION_15 | Quivering Palm
16 | Monk 16 // Egoist 16 | | |
17 | Monk 17 // Egoist 17 | | | Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon
18 | Monk 18 // Egoist 18 | FEAT | |
19 | Monk 19 // Egoist 19 | | | Empty Body
20 | Monk 20 // Egoist 20 | | PSION_20 | Perfect Self[/table]

Necro Blackguard: The obvious choice is Fallen Paladin 10 / Blackguard 10 // Dread Necromancer 20 (complete with Lich transformation). I don't know if the fallen paladin benefits are worth it, though. Some fighter levels can add the extra feats needed to meet the Blackguard pre-reqs, leaving your general feats open to enhance the dread necro side. Maybe Fighter 6 / Hexblade (Dark Companion) 4 / BG 10 // DN 20? With CHA already high, a one-level dip of Marshal on the Blackguard side will lose 1 point of BAB in exchange for a minor aura -- use it to boost spell penetration by your CHA modifier. Marshal 1 / Hexblade 7 / Fighter 2 // DN 20 gets you the extra feats you need, the Hexblade's dark companion, and Greater Hexblade's curse, albeit at a fairly low save DC.

You'll want a minimum WIS of 14, so Arcane Disciple might be a good feat choice here. Battle Caster to make use of mithral full plate, since you have the armor proficiencies for it. Abilities: WIS 14+( BG spells), STR 13+ (Cleave), CHA max, DEX/INT who cares, CON dump

{table]Level | Classes | Feat | Bonus Feat(s) | Class Features
1 | Dread Necromancer 1 // Marshal 1 | FEAT | Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Power Attack | Charnel Touch, Rebuke Undead, Minor Aura: Determined Caster
2 | Dread Necromancer 2 // Hexblade 1 | | | Lich Body, Hexblade's Curse
3 | Dread Necromancer 3 // Hexblade 2 | FEAT | | Negative Energy Burst, Arcane Resistance
4 | Dread Necromancer 4 // Hexblade 3 | | | Mental Bastion, Mettle
5 | Dread Necromancer 5 // Hexblade 4 | | | Fear, Aura, Dark Companion
6 | Dread Necromancer 6 // Hexblade 5 | FEAT | Spell Focus; Necromancy | Scabrous Touch
7 | Dread Necromancer 7 // Hexblade 6 | | | Obtain Familiar (DN)
8 | Dread Necromancer 8 // Hexblade 7 | | | Undead Mastery, (Greater Hexblade's Curse)
9 | Dread Necromancer 9 // Fighter 1 | FEAT | Cleave | Negative Energy Resistance
10 | Dread Necromancer 10 // Fighter 2 | | Improved Sunder | Fortification
11 | Dread Necromancer 11 // Blackguard 1 | | | Aura Of Evil, Detect Good, Poison Use
12 | Dread Necromancer 12 // Blackguard 2 | FEAT | | Enervating Touch, Dark Blessing, Smite Good
13 | Dread Necromancer 13 // Blackguard 3 | | | Command Undead, Aura Of Despair
14 | Dread Necromancer 14 // Blackguard 4 | | | Sneak Attack
15 | Dread Necromancer 15 // Blackguard 5 | FEAT | | Fiendish Servant
16 | Dread Necromancer 16 // Blackguard 6 | | |
17 | Dread Necromancer 17 // Blackguard 7 | | |
18 | Dread Necromancer 18 // Blackguard 8 | FEAT | |
19 | Dread Necromancer 19 // Blackguard 9 | | Craft Wondrous Item |
20 | Dread Necromancer 20 // Blackguard 10 | | | Lich Transformation[/table]

Feat selection should favor the DN side as much as possible, see the DN guide over on Wizards' forums for suggestions.


Fighter // Sorcerer: Okay, this is a bit complicated, and violates my normal guidelines regarding splitting classes on each side of the gestalt, but:


Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Incantatrix 1 / Spellsword +1 / Incantatrix +1 / ... // Fighter 5 / Spellsword +1 / Fighter +1 / Spellsword +1 / ...

{table]Level | Classes | Feat | Bonus Feat(s) | Class Features
1 | Sorcerer 1 // Fighter 1 | FEAT | Iron Will, FIGHTER_1 | Summon Familiar
2 | Sorcerer 2 // Fighter 2 | | FIGHTER_2 |
3 | Sorcerer 3 // Fighter 3 | FEAT | |
4 | Sorcerer 4 // Fighter 4 | | FIGHTER_4 |
5 | Spellsword 1 // Marshal 1 | | Skill Focus: Diplomacy | Ignore Spell Failure, Minor Aura: Determined Caster
6 | Sorcerer 5 // Spellsword 2 | FEAT | SPELLSWORD_2 |
7 | Spellsword 3 // Fighter 5 | | | Channel Spell
8 | Incantatrix 1 // Spellsword 4 | | INCANTATRIX_1, SPELLSWORD_4 | Focused Studies
9 | Spellsword 5 // Fighter 6 | Rapid Metamagic | FIGHTER_6 |
10 | Incantatrix 2 // Spellsword 6 | | SPELLSWORD_6 | Cooperative Metamgaic
11 | Spellsword 7 // Fighter 7 | | |
12 | Incantatrix 3 // Spellsword 8 | FEAT | SPELLSWORD_8 | Metamagic Effect
13 | Spellsword 9 // Fighter 8 | | FIGHTER_8 |
14 | Incantatrix 4 // Spellsword 10 | | INCANTATRIX_4, SPELLSWORD_10 | Multiple Channel Spell
15 | Incantatrix 5 // Fighter 9 | FEAT | | Metamagic Spell Trigger
16 | Incantatrix 6 // Fighter 10 | | FIGHTER_10 | Seize Concentration
17 | Incantatrix 7 // Fighter 11 | | INCANTATRIX_7 | Instant Metamagic
18 | Incantatrix 8 // Fighter 12 | FEAT | FIGHTER_12 | Snatch Spell
19 | Incantatrix 9 // Fighter 13 | | |
20 | Incantatrix 10 // Fighter 14 | | INCANTATRIX_10, FIGHTER_14 | Improved Metamagic[/table]

Between Spellsword and Incantatrix, that's 9 bonus feats that can all be spent on metamagic feats! Of course, I'm also drowning in a vat of cheddar. Use your remaining general feats for more casting boosts (spell focus, possibly spell penetration if SR is going to be a serious problem, additional metamagic) and your fighter feats to enhance combat ability. For the spell school to drop, illusion or enchantment are the most likely candidates -- illusion probably is the best from a concept standpoint.

In the event that the above sets off the cheese-o-meter, consider Hexblade or Duskblade instead of fighter, and go more like Hex/Dusk 5 / Spellsword 5 / Hex/Dusk +10 // Sorcerer 10 / Incantatrix 10. As above, a one-level dip in Marshal may be worth it for spell penetration at the cost of 1 point of BAB. A one-level dip in lion Totem Barbarian is almost always worth it for an aggressive attacker.


Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Duskblade 4 / Spellsword 5 / Marshal 1 / Duskblade +9 // Sorcerer 10 / Incantatrix 10


Charge and deliver a full-attack, channeling any arcane touch spell you know through each attack. (TWF with speed weapons, anyone?) Spell Penetration boost equal to CHA modifier. Can wear just about any armor without ASF failure. Casts as Sorcerer 20 / Duskblade 16. Downsides: need a 15 INT to cast 5th-level duskblade spells, if desired; average 1 HP less per HD.

In any case, make sure you take feats and options letting you apply metamagic without having to make it a full-round action. Abilities: CHA max, STR/CON high, INT moderate (spellcraft), DEX/WIS dump.

Paladin // Cleric: An odd pairing, actually, since class features overlap to some degree (e.g., the Paladin's turn undead ability is essentially useless because Cleric already grants it, and it only accumulates at the faster rate). What might actually be better is Paladin // Favored Soul -- less flexible in spell selection, but more synergy and less overlap. Trade in some of the Paladin's class features for variant features (I mean, what DM really uses disease?). It's still very MAD, but now WIS only has to be high enough for spell access (19 for 9th level spells). FS provides nice defensive and weapon boosts as class abilities, making up for the Paladin's relative lack of feats. Abilities: CHA very high, WIS good, STR/CON as high as possible, DEX/INT dump.

{table]Level | Classes | Feat | Bonus Feat(s) | Class Features
1 | Favored Soul 1 // Paladin 1 | FEAT | Track, HUMAN_1 | Aura of Good, Gaze Of Truth, Hunter Of Fiends
2 | Favored Soul 2 // Paladin 2 | | | Divine Grace, Lay On Hands
3 | Favored Soul 3 // Paladin 3 | FEAT | Weapon Focus: | Aura Of Courage, Darkvision, Low-Light Vision
4 | Favored Soul 4 // Paladin 4 | | | Turn Undead
5 | Favored Soul 5 // Paladin 5 | | | Resist 10 (energy A), Special Mount
6 | Favored Soul 6 // Paladin 6 | FEAT | | Blessed Weapon, Aura Of Banishment
7 | Favored Soul 7 // Paladin 7 | | |
8 | Favored Soul 8 // Paladin 8 | | |
9 | Favored Soul 9 // Paladin 9 | FEAT | |
10 | Favored Soul 10 // Paladin 10 | | | Resist 10 (energy B)
11 | Favored Soul 11 // Paladin 11 | | | Divine Might
12 | Favored Soul 12 // Paladin 12 | FEAT | Weapon Specialization: |
13 | Favored Soul 13 // Paladin 13 | | | Tend To Mount
14 | Favored Soul 14 // Paladin 14 | | |
15 | Favored Soul 15 // Paladin 15 | FEAT | | Resist 10 (energy C)
16 | Favored Soul 16 // Paladin 16 | | | Holy Sword
17 | Favored Soul 17 // Paladin 17 | | | Wings
18 | Favored Soul 18 // Paladin 18 | FEAT | |
19 | Favored Soul 19 // Paladin 19 | | |
20 | Favored Soul 20 // Paladin 20 | | | Damage Reduction[/table]

Ranger // Druid: An even odder pairing, since Ranger is essentially just a martial druid with limited Druid spellcasting and no wild shape. Since Druid has your spellcasting abilities and the Ranger animal companion, well, sucks, take the non-spellcasting Ranger class variant and either the distracting attack or solitary hunter class feature variants in exchange for the animal companion. In the latter case, you're allowing Dragon magazine material, so go with Bear-Wrestling or Strong-Arm combat styles. Natural Spell is the only must-have feat. Abilities: WIS max, INT/CHA decent, STR/DEX/CON dump -- you are wildshaping, yes? Hmm... apparently not. You're asking for an elf here, he's not going to be particularly ass-kicking by default. :smallamused:

In that case, I'd suggest a bow expert (archery combat style), with WIS very high, and everything else decent (dump CHA). Take a 1-level Monk dip for Wisdom to AC and Zen Archery to apply WIS to ranged attacks.

{table]Level | Classes | Feat | Bonus Feat(s) | Class Features
1 | Druid 1 // Ranger 1 | Zen Archery | Track | Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy
2 | Druid 2 // Ranger 2 | | Rapid Shot | Woodland Stride
3 | Druid 3 // Monk 1 | FEAT | MONK_1 | Trackless Step
4 | Druid 4 // Ranger 3 | | Endurance | Resist Nature's Lure
5 | Druid 5 // Ranger 4 | | | Wild Shape, Distracting Attack
6 | Druid 6 // Ranger 5 | Natural Spell| |
7 | Druid 7 // Ranger 6 | | Manyshot | +10' Movement
8 | Druid 8 // Ranger 7 | | |
9 | Druid 9 // Ranger 8 | FEAT | | Venom Immunity, Swift Tracker
10 | Druid 10 // Ranger 9 | | | Evasion
11 | Druid 11 // Ranger 10 | | |
12 | Druid 12 // Ranger 11 | FEAT | Improved Precise Shot | Ability Boost 1/day
13 | Druid 13 // Ranger 12 | | | A Thousand Faces
14 | Druid 14 // Ranger 13 | | | Camouflage, Remove Posion or Disease 1/day
15 | Druid 15 // Ranger 14 | FEAT | | Timeless Body
16 | Druid 16 // Ranger 15 | | |
17 | Druid 17 // Ranger 16 | | | Freedom of Movement (self) 1/day
18 | Druid 18 // Ranger 17 | FEAT | | Hide In Plain Sight
19 | Druid 19 // Horizon Walker 1 | | | Terrain Mastery
20 | Druid 20 // Horizon Walker 2 | | | Terrain Mastery[/table]

[shadeofblack]

the posters on this forum never cease to amaze me. thanks alot, and I'm looking forward to your builds.

[shadeofblack]

duke,

"necro" dude: dread necromancer is the way to go (I want him to be a lich) but I'm not sure about the ex-paladin either.

fighter/sorcerer : your first build is brilliant. I hope you elaborate on that.

paladin/cleric : favored soul is a brilliant idea, let's go with that.

ranger/druid : I need her to be able to kick ass without wildshaping.

[Nermy]

For the Dread Necromancer I would recommend Half-Fiend (+4LA) / Hexblade 6 / Blackguard 10 // Dread Necromancer 20

The levels in Hexblade will give you the "curse" flavour you're looking for and the half-fiend adds an oomph of evil and some nice stat bonuses to help with MAD.

The only problem is that since Half-Fiend changes the type to Outsider, you don't get the full benefit of the Lich transformation unless you house-rule that the half-fiend template doesn't give the Outsider type (which is considered a "benefit" anyway, so removing it wouldn't increase LA).

Crunch-wise it would be better to keep the Con bonus to hp anyway, but I know you're going for flavour.

For feats, you'll need the pre-requisites for Blackguard, and I'd also suggest taking Battle Caster twice for your Dread Necromancer spells so you can wear menacing looking spiked heavy armor and still cast arcane spells.

For the Paladin/Favored Soul I would recommend Half-Celestial (+4LA) / Paladin 16 // Favoured Soul 20

Again, the stat boosts are worth the loss of 1 BAB and a use of remove disease (the loss of Smite Evil is made up by the half-celestial template).

Also making the paladin / favored soul a Half-Celestial would work as a foil to the Dread Necromancer's Half-Fiend nature should you choose to go that route.

For your favoured soul spells known, I would recommend combat buffs and healing spells, since directly offensive spells wouldn't really work with the nature of a Champion of Good theme (a crunch reason would be that it lets you focus on Charisma since you don't need wisdom as high for save DCs)

On that note, I would recommend Subduing Strike or a Merciful weapon to keep the paladin from killing his enemies unless he's absolutely forced to.

[shadeofblack]

duke, you're the best. I can definitely work with those.

nermy, thank you for the suggestions.