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Half-blood
2008-03-17, 08:30 PM
I have a Question regarding sneak attack (Rogue ability, core, PBHI) say you have...two short-swords, and you attack someone who doesn't see you. (Or flanked) Do you apply sneak attack damage to both hits? or just the one? Any further questions regarding sneak attack pending.

Vortling
2008-03-17, 08:32 PM
Yes, as long as you're still flanking or invisible sneak attack damage applies for all your attacks.

turtlemonkey
2008-03-17, 08:52 PM
yes, so if you have normal invisiblity on. only 1 attack will get the sneak attack, because as soon as you hit that first attack, invisiblity is taken off

flanking.. yes both will work unless for some odd reason there is an immediate action and the person moves

holywhippet
2008-03-17, 08:58 PM
yes, so if you have normal invisiblity on. only 1 attack will get the sneak attack, because as soon as you hit that first attack, invisiblity is taken off

Is that specifically stated somewhere? I'd be tempted to say that the attacker would stab with both weapons at the same time.

Starbuck_II
2008-03-17, 09:28 PM
Is that specifically stated somewhere? I'd be tempted to say that the attacker would stab with both weapons at the same time.

Nope because invisibility the spell wears after attacking once.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-17, 09:46 PM
Is that specifically stated somewhere? I'd be tempted to say that the attacker would stab with both weapons at the same time.

From the spell Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) in the SRD:


If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear.

Sorry, man. Book says the first attack drops Invisibility.

However, grab a Ring of Greater Blinking. You get all the sneak attacking that being Ethereal grants you, but without the suck of your own attacks having a 20% miss chance. Much more expensive than a standard one, though.

The alternative is to go Arcane Trickster with Blade of Force Reserve Feat, which is a Force effect, and thus affects even Ethereal. Failing that, Invisible Needle is also a Force effect that does a ranged attack roll.

The_Snark
2008-03-17, 10:05 PM
Force effects don't do anything to help with a Blink effect. Important thing to remember is that while force effects cast by material creatures always affect ethereal ones, force effects cast by ethereal creatures do absolutely nothing to anything on the Material Plane.

holywhippet
2008-03-17, 10:32 PM
From the spell Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) in the SRD:



Sorry, man. Book says the first attack drops Invisibility.


Does it though? I could agree if for multiple attacks per round as you have to handle each of them in sequence. But for dual weapons I don't see why the attacks couldn't (and in this case wouldn't) be simultaneous.

Sofaking
2008-03-17, 11:17 PM
I think if depends more if you opponent was still flat footed or somehow denied his dex bonus. If he has not acted in the round then yes all attacks would apply. I don't think if matters if you become visible, but if someone can "regain their dex bonus" in between hits.

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-17, 11:25 PM
Sneak Attack is awesome, in that it applies to ALL your attacks. Get as many of them as you can as a Rogue.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-18, 03:59 AM
Does it though? I could agree if for multiple attacks per round as you have to handle each of them in sequence. But for dual weapons I don't see why the attacks couldn't (and in this case wouldn't) be simultaneous.

Attacks are handled in sequence, not simultaneous, even if you are dual wielding.

In case of invisibility it has a downside, but it also allow you to use your second weapon for some other purpose if your first hit slays the target or even to call of your full attack and instead turn it into a standard action attack and take a move action after.

Fitz
2008-03-18, 04:12 AM
not sure about the "first" attack thing, the multiple attacks are all done as part of 1 action, not to mention attacking at the same time with each weapon makes sense. I would be tempted to make the attack targets be declared at the same time though.
you have to be within 5 feet to get this, so it is still very limited.
Flanking is a different thing though. very nasty with a rogue.

Fitz

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-18, 04:21 AM
not sure about the "first" attack thing, the multiple attacks are all done as part of 1 action, not to mention attacking at the same time with each weapon makes sense. I would be tempted to make the attack targets be declared at the same time though.

The RAW is quite clear, so there is no need for uncertainty.


Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attack
(My emphasis)

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-18, 04:27 AM
As a bit of an aside, would it be a reasonable houserule to allow one regular and one offhand attack to strike simultaneously as a standard action as a sort of 'dual strike?' Maybe add that as a sort of 'tactical feat' add-on to the TWF feat...

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-18, 04:32 AM
As a bit of an aside, would it be a reasonable houserule to allow one regular and one offhand attack to strike simultaneously as a standard action as a sort of 'dual strike?' Maybe add that as a sort of 'tactical feat' add-on to the TWF feat...

Considering that wielding a weapon two-handed generally is superior to dual wielding it certainly would not be unreasonable to fold the benefits of the Complete Adventurer feat Dual Strike into the TWF feats. Note that you only apply precision based damage once with Dual Strike.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-18, 04:33 AM
I thought I remembered that phrase from somewhere.

Thanatos 51-50
2008-03-18, 04:40 AM
I was under the impression that as long as your target is denied their dexterity bonus against you, you get sneak attack damage, which is why Rouge dual-wielding can cause such massive amounts of damage.
Same logic applies to winning initiave.

I would rule sneaking up on somebody and consquently attacking them acts a surprise round of sorts, and every blow you throw during that surprise round deals Sneak Attack.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-18, 04:50 AM
I was under the impression that as long as your target is denied their dexterity bonus against you, you get sneak attack damage, which is why Rouge dual-wielding can cause such massive amounts of damage.
Same logic applies to winning initiave.

This is correct.


I would rule sneaking up on somebody and consquently attacking them acts a surprise round of sorts, and every blow you throw during that surprise round deals Sneak Attack.


There are no surprise rounds in the middle of combat, but if no combat has been initiated sneaking up on someone certainly should earn you a surprise round.

You can only take a standard action during a surprise round, which means only one attack.

Winning initiative means that your target is flat-footed until after you have made your full attack.

Combining a surprise with winning initiative could potentially let you make a standard action attack and a full round attack against your flat-footed target, but that depends if you are in position of course. (Sneaking up on your target while invisible might just be such a case).

If you get a surprise round you can also delay your action so you are sure you can get a full attack before your opponent acts.

However, as soon as your opponent has acted in combat the opponent is no longer flat-footed and sneaking up on a non-flat-footed target in combat while invisible means that your target is only denied dexterity to AC for the very first attack.

Talic
2008-03-18, 05:09 AM
For the "2 weapons at the same time" question... There is a feat that does this. It's called dual strike. As a standard action, you roll 1 attack for both weapons. However, you only get precision damage, such as sneak attack, once.

Situations that provide a sneak attack opportunity that won't go away with an attack, those will certainly allow you to do more than one attack.

For example, a 10th level halfling rogue with the RotW racial sub levels bay snipe and hide as a free action. On a full attack, then, with a shortbow, they could, with two attacks, Sneak Attack (hide free), Sneak attack (hide free).

Other situations are as brought up above... Improved invisibility, flanking, and the like. Note that darkvision against opponents without it, and blinding opponents will both also work. All of these let follow up attacks deal sneak attack damage.

Fitz
2008-03-18, 06:48 AM
ok i stand corrected on the way attacks work, cheers for pointing that out (i allowed my expireince using 2 weapons to override reading the rules :smalleek: )
Still not sure i think it right that if you are invisible and the enemy moves close enough to allow 2 attacks, that the time between attack 1 and attack 2 will allow the dex bonus to be reinstated, but again i may be wrong on that. seems to be a very situational case (except rogues with pounce and twf plus multiple attacks)
Fitz

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-18, 07:43 AM
Still not sure i think it right that if you are invisible and the enemy moves close enough to allow 2 attacks, that the time between attack 1 and attack 2 will allow the dex bonus to be reinstated, but again i may be wrong on that. seems to be a very situational case (except rogues with pounce and twf plus multiple attacks)
Fitz

The rules do not stipulate any delay in preparedness between attack number one and attack number two and neither does invisibility confer any gradual states of invisibility, you are either invisible or you are not.


The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature.

You are invisible when you make your first attack and the target is denied dexterity to AC. After you have made your first attack you becomes visible, so when making your second attack the target is not denied dexterity to AC from being attacked by an invisible opponent.

These are the rules as written.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 07:52 AM
Just use greater invisibility already.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-18, 07:55 AM
Just use greater invisibility already.

It might not always be an option, but it certainly is a good suggestion for a rogue, unless the enemies can see invisible of course.