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Admiral Squish
2008-03-18, 12:21 AM
I've been working on a couple of characters, as of late, and while fighting off my muchkin instincts, I've noticed there's a lot of downright ridiculous numbers you can get with the right combination of feats, skills, equipment, class and race.

For example: A ranger6/cragtop archer 4 goliath with a eighteen in dex and an eighteen in str before adjustments can do some ridiculous range/damage. If my math is right, with a +1 large composite longbow with splitting and shock, frost or flaming on it, far shot, and multishot can do an average of 51 damage a turn to anything within 2465 feet, at +8 attack.

Another is a Stonechild 1st level barbarian who does an average of 21 damage a hit with a greathammer, without any enhancements, ignores hardness under 20, and rages for 13 rounds at a time, doing an average of 25 damage a hit. It's hard to find something that DOESN'T break under that. Poor DM. And that's first level, no power attack.

What are some ridiculous numbers you've come up with? Be it damage, costs, range, scores, whatever, I want to hear some truly ridiculous numbers.

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 12:27 AM
I've been working on a couple of characters, as of late, and while fighting off my muchkin instincts, I've noticed there's a lot of downright ridiculous numbers you can get with the right combination of feats, skills, equipment, class and race.

For example: A ranger6/cragtop archer 4 goliath with a eighteen in dex and an eighteen in str before adjustments can do some ridiculous range/damage. If my math is right, with a +1 large composite longbow with splitting and shock, frost or flaming on it, far shot, and multishot can do an average of 51 damage a turn to anything within 2465 feet, at +8 attack.

Another is a Stonechild 1st level barbarian who does an average of 21 damage a hit with a greathammer, without any enhancements, ignores hardness under 20, and rages for 13 rounds at a time, doing an average of 25 damage a hit. It's hard to find something that DOESN'T break under that. Poor DM. And that's first level, no power attack.

What are some ridiculous numbers you've come up with? Be it damage, costs, range, scores, whatever, I want to hear some truly ridiculous numbers.

Those numbers don't seem that high to me. The stonechild has HD and LA (ECL6 IIRC), so that isn't first level and you'd still do better with an Orc with power attack.

As for mine, an Orc shapeshift druid 1/barbarian 1 can have 30 Strength at level 2. That's a lot.

RTGoodman
2008-03-18, 12:37 AM
Well, the Goliath Ranger/Cragtop Archer is an ECL 11; even a Fireball at that level is still doing an average of 38.5 damage. And you're using the splitting enhancement, which is considered pretty broken, as well as having two 18s starting (which is possible, but not common). Your damage and range are good (and I love both Cragtop Archer and Goliaths), but it's not the most broken you can get.

For instance, the classic (cheesy) Diplomancer, or at least the version I had bookmarked (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-371519), has a whopping +222 to Diplomacy at 20th level. Even without going full cheese, you can still be ridiculously good at Diplomacy (as I discovered accidentally with my last Marshall build).

Xefas
2008-03-18, 12:55 AM
For me, I like how a 3rd level Wizard can get an armor class of 29 without any magic items. With proper Wealth-by-Level, he can get to 30 and he'll have 20gp left, too.

Assuming 12 dex, 2650gp for a suit of +1 Full Plate, 30gp for a Tower Shield, and one application of the 2nd level spell Alter Self to transform into a Troglodyte...

1 dex + 9 armor + 4 shield + 6 natural + 10 base = 30 AC

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 01:04 AM
For me, I like how a 3rd level Wizard can get an armor class of 29 without any magic items. With proper Wealth-by-Level, he can get to 30 and he'll have 20gp left, too.

Assuming 12 dex, 2650gp for a suit of +1 Full Plate, 30gp for a Tower Shield, and one application of the 2nd level spell Alter Self to transform into a Troglodyte...

1 dex + 9 armor + 4 shield + 6 natural + 10 base = 30 AC

That would be more impressive if the character was even slightly effective.

sikyon
2008-03-18, 01:05 AM
For me, I like how a 3rd level Wizard can get an armor class of 29 without any magic items. With proper Wealth-by-Level, he can get to 30 and he'll have 20gp left, too.

Assuming 12 dex, 2650gp for a suit of +1 Full Plate, 30gp for a Tower Shield, and one application of the 2nd level spell Alter Self to transform into a Troglodyte...

1 dex + 9 armor + 4 shield + 6 natural + 10 base = 30 AC

I don't see how that's THAT amazing...seems to me like a barbarian1 lizardfolk with 16 dex gets

3 dex + 9 armor + 4 sheild + 5 natural + 10 base = 31

And is massivly awsome for an ECL3.

Ascension
2008-03-18, 01:21 AM
I think it's safe to say that natural armor in general is great.

Oh, and while we're talking natural armor, I just noticed the other day that the MM actually lists LAs for the younger age categories of dragon. Not too high, either. I'm sure the racial hit dice would mean you'd have to be in a high level game, but it's still pretty awesome. I've heard of people playing all sorts of semi-dragon characters, but an actual dragon?

Xefas
2008-03-18, 01:21 AM
That would be more impressive if the character was even slightly effective.

Well, if you want to look at impressively effective characters, then you're better off going to the Character Optimization boards and browsing their millions of pages of archives about level 8-12 characters who hurl suns at one another and can massacre the population of an entire plane of existence as a swift action.

I find a scrawny little bookworm coated in hundreds of pounds of steel rather amusing, if not very effective.

However, one could argue that in a campaign where you aren't allowed to rest 8 hours after every fight or two and the enemies are actually intelligent enough to attack the weak old man in the back with the laser cannon arms, having the Wizard decked out in 30 armor class so he doesn't die before the boss fight, then stripping off all his armor and letting loose with the Glitterdusts and Rays of Enfeeblement could be counted as effective.

Of course, once he hits 5th level, and the Escort Mission of "Protect the Wizard because a Gnome farting forcefully in his general direction is liable to disembowel him" is over, obviously you're better off pawning the items or giving them to a cohort or something.



I don't see how that's THAT amazing...seems to me like a barbarian1 lizardfolk with 16 dex gets

3 dex + 9 armor + 4 sheild + 5 natural + 10 base = 31

And is massivly awsome for an ECL3.

How are you getting 9 armor? Full Plate only allows 1 dex bonus to AC to apply.

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 01:30 AM
I find a scrawny little bookworm coated in hundreds of pounds of steel rather amusing, if not very effective.

But still, not terribly impressive.



How are you getting 9 armor? Full Plate only allows 1 dex bonus to AC to apply.

Mithril.

Xefas
2008-03-18, 01:38 AM
Mithril.

A suit of +1 Mithral Full Plate costs 11,650gp, which means you couldn't afford that setup until 6th level.

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 01:40 AM
Nimble fullplate, then. That gets you 30 while still being effective.

Xefas
2008-03-18, 01:46 AM
Nimble fullplate, then. That gets you 30 while still being effective.

My Magic Item Compendium says +1 Nimble Full Plate costs 10,650gp and only raises the maximum dex bonus by 1, so you still couldn't afford it until 6th level and it wouldn't be the correct AC anyway.

Ascension
2008-03-18, 01:46 AM
:smallbiggrin: This is reminding me of the reaction my ranger's AC got in a 6th level core only PVP game (full report posted elsewhere in this forum). The mithril breastplate is now officially my new favorite armor. Nice armor bonus, nice max dex bonus, counts as light armor... what's not to like?

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 01:55 AM
Hmm, I thought it was a +1. Still, it beats the poor wizard in full plate.

Xefas
2008-03-18, 02:00 AM
Hmm, I thought it was a +1. Still, it beats the poor wizard in full plate.

Oh, you're right. It would only be 6,650gp. I was mixing up the armor and weapons bonus table. Still, that's level 5 territory.

And yes, it beats the poor wizard in full plate, but I still like the idea of the big pile of inert metal stripping down and unleashing a full day's worth of hell upon whatever psychotic warlord chooses to continue trolling level 3 venues since the wizard didn't have to spend any of his spell slots on survival.

Admiral Squish
2008-03-18, 02:05 AM
For me, I like how a 3rd level Wizard can get an armor class of 29 without any magic items. With proper Wealth-by-Level, he can get to 30 and he'll have 20gp left, too.

Assuming 12 dex, 2650gp for a suit of +1 Full Plate, 30gp for a Tower Shield, and one application of the 2nd level spell Alter Self to transform into a Troglodyte...

1 dex + 9 armor + 4 shield + 6 natural + 10 base = 30 AC

Doesn't that have the nonproficient penalties and arcane spell failure of about 60%?

Xefas
2008-03-18, 02:09 AM
Doesn't that have the nonproficient penalties and arcane spell failure of about 60%?

85%, actually. You can't hit things, use Tumble, or cast spells, but no one can hit you either at that level. It's like the Monk design philosophy taken to the extreme, except with a 15% higher chance to do something useful.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 07:39 AM
For example: A ranger6/cragtop archer 4 goliath with a eighteen in dex and an eighteen in str before adjustments can do some ridiculous range/damage. If my math is right, with a +1 large composite longbow with splitting and shock, frost or flaming on it, far shot, and multishot can do an average of 51 damage a turn to anything within 2465 feet, at +8 attack.

Another is a Stonechild 1st level barbarian who does an average of 21 damage a hit with a greathammer, without any enhancements, ignores hardness under 20, and rages for 13 rounds at a time, doing an average of 25 damage a hit. It's hard to find something that DOESN'T break under that. Poor DM. And that's first level, no power attack.

Is that Manyshot, rather than "Multishot" ?

Did you calculate averages as "average damage * number of attacks" or as "(average damage * chance to hit on first attack) + ... + (average damage * chance to hit on last attack)" ?

The average damage takes a sharp nosedive when you factor in your chance to hit. That's probably, what, 17 damage in the first example? (Do goliaths have racial HD and BAB +1 or more? Because if they don't, you're shooting 2 arrows, not 3. Need BAB +11 or more to Manyshot 3 arrows. That means your attack bonus goes up to +10, though.) Let's take a nice CR 10 bebilith with a puny AC 22; you need 12+ to hit, or a 45% chance to hit. That's (.45x17)x2, or 15.3 damage per round. If you do shoot thrice, that's (.35x17)x3, or 17.85 damage per round.

That's not very impressive, if you ask me. Actually, it really sucks.

The 1st-level goliath (what's the ECL? You can't compare ECL >1 to ECL 1) is more impressive, since things tend to have fewer hp at low levels and average damage over rounds isn't as impressive as average damage per hit.

Swooper
2008-03-18, 09:34 AM
If you want truly ridiculous numbers...

I've seen, statted out and fully legal, a build that will deal over 2000 damage in two rounds, and it's not a variation of the popular ubercharger builds (although it relies on charging). The build is something like Warblade 14/Swordsage 5/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 (whirling frenzy variant). The Swordsage levels are there for one purpose only: Shadow Blink (teleport 50' as a swift action). Relevant feats include the TWF line, Combat Reflexes, Stormguard Warrior, Snap Kick, Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Relevant gear is a Valorous +x Longsword and a Valorous +x Speed Shortsword. Gloves of Dexterity +6 or so, depending on your starting dex.

Round 1: Assuming you can start in rage (remember, whirling frenzy): Charge, full attack used for Combat Rhythm (as per Stormguard Warrior) with the Raging Mongoose maneuvre, dealing no damage but stacking up bonuses for the next round. Enemy counterattacks, provoking one AoO for every attack and another for every hit. No damage still, since all those AoOs are used to Channel the Storm, stacking up even more bonuses.
Round 2: Teleport 50' with Shadow Blink and charge again. This time each of your ridiculous number of attacks have something like +24 to hit and +188 to damage (I can show you the math if you like, but atm I'm too lazy to type it out) - though this depends on how many attacks the enemy rolled and how many hit. This, of course, doubles because your swords are valorous. The average damage, assuming 4 rolled attacks and 2 hits on you in the first round, is, I believe, 2090. That's with no crits.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 09:40 AM
Check the links in my sig.

Particularly, the Flame of Anor does over a thousand damage per round, and the Whippomancer is capable of buffing (or debuffing) nearly a thousand people at the same time.

Admiral Squish
2008-03-18, 12:42 PM
Is that Manyshot, rather than "Multishot" ?

Did you calculate averages as "average damage * number of attacks" or as "(average damage * chance to hit on first attack) + ... + (average damage * chance to hit on last attack)" ?

The average damage takes a sharp nosedive when you factor in your chance to hit. That's probably, what, 17 damage in the first example? (Do goliaths have racial HD and BAB +1 or more? Because if they don't, you're shooting 2 arrows, not 3. Need BAB +11 or more to Manyshot 3 arrows. That means your attack bonus goes up to +10, though.) Let's take a nice CR 10 bebilith with a puny AC 22; you need 12+ to hit, or a 45% chance to hit. That's (.45x17)x2, or 15.3 damage per round. If you do shoot thrice, that's (.35x17)x3, or 17.85 damage per round.

That's not very impressive, if you ask me. Actually, it really sucks.

The 1st-level goliath (what's the ECL? You can't compare ECL >1 to ECL 1) is more impressive, since things tend to have fewer hp at low levels and average damage over rounds isn't as impressive as average damage per hit.

The damage isn't impressive, it's the half-mile radius of death. Three of those atop a mountain and even a full party of armored-out fighters will never live to reach the top

Chronos
2008-03-18, 01:08 PM
Check the links in my sig.Yes, but those are Gestalt. Gestalt makes all flavors of cheese easier.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 01:29 PM
The damage isn't impressive, it's the half-mile radius of death. Three of those atop a mountain and even a full party of armored-out fighters will never live to reach the top

Yeah, assuming there's no cover in any direction. (So that mountain scenario is pretty much out.)

Still not awfully impressive, especially considering how easy it is to negate missile attacks if you have to advance on a position defended by a bunch of goliath Ranger 6/Cragtop Archer 4 sentries in completely open terrain.

"A party of fully-armored out fighters" isn't all that impressive as destructive force, but okay. Let's say they're only 10th-level (so the advantage is on the ECL 11/CR 10 goliaths, who are a level 13 encounter). If the fighters are PCs, even without being specifically prepared to negate ranged attacks, they're going to have +2 or +3 heavy shields and full plate with a Dex modifier of +1, for a total AC of 25 or 27, maybe up to 28 if they've each got an amulet of natural armor or a ring of protection. That takes up around 12,000 to 22,000 of their gold, so less than half total. The goliaths are going to need 20s to hit them, for an average damage of 1.7 each per round when they can actually see the targets. Even if the fight happens on a plain with no cover of any sort, at a distance of 2,465 feet, the armored fighters (who, for some silly reason, aren't mounted) are only going to take 51 damage per goliath, split up between their members (with a Con mod of +2, their average PC hit points are 79), in the 30 rounds it takes them to run the distance. So they will reach them intact.

The distance is impressive against NPCs and monsters who have no way of negating missile fire (cover, wind wall, invisibility, etc.) or closing the distance quickly (at 10th level, a wizard would have teleport available), but that's about it. The damage isn't impressive in itself.

Admiral Squish
2008-03-18, 01:46 PM
Thirty rounds to run half a mile? Three minutes, in full plate with that much gear? The mountain scenario actually would work better because they'd have to A) get across the field surrounding the mountain, B)Go through all that difficult terrain around the base, which would both negate the run and slow down normal movement, and C) Climb the damn thing at one-quarter speed without their dex bonus. Even with what minimal cover a mountain would provide to people unable to actively seek it, (+4 every other round, let's say), and +10 to attack, due to your pointed-out lack of the second-tier manyshot plus, they'd lose the shield bonus while climbing , they're hitting every 14-20, or 18-20 with cover, and crit-threatening on 20s at quarter-speed opponents?

Let's see...20ft speed, so 5ft/round climb... Probably failing a lot due to AC penalty... I'd say their chances of getting up to the top at ALL are slim, and with the arrows raining on their heads we can safely call that a none.

FlyMolo
2008-03-18, 01:47 PM
Personally, my favorite math is my Arena Tournament Psion with an AC of 19. Not totally impressive, but boy is it fun. Nothing can hit you at 1st level with an AC that high. With Elan Resilience, I'm a tank. Better, I'm a tank with mind thrust.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 01:49 PM
My bad, running speed is x3 in full plate, isn't it? So it's 40 rounds, so 68 damage per archer split between the party.

This is still assuming a ridiculously unfavorable set of circumstances in which only a bunch of idiots would proceed to attack.

Also, you've got some really weird mountains if a person standing on top (or, rather, on an edge of the mountaintop) can see everything on the sides of it.

Admiral Squish
2008-03-18, 02:56 PM
Have you ever been to a real mountain peak? You'd think you'd miss a lot on the side but truth is your really can see almost everything. There's a few spots where you can't see, due to nearly-sheer drops, but there's more plateaus than there are cover-worthy spots.

You're still assuming they're charging across a field. The mountain scenario, as I've said, is much more favorable, and even has some nice flavor to it.

So, numbers for the mountain... 2465 feet, assuming a quarter is field, another fourth difficult terrain, and the rest is mountain? Multiply distance on the mountain by 1.5 to represent the angular climb...

6042 rounds to make it to the top, not counting climb failures.

511 rounds they won't make any progress, 279 rounds of which they will fall. Being merciful, let's say the fall is 20 feet each time. That's average of six damage, times 279, and adds 1116 to the rounds spent climbing. Right there, we're talking TPK.

so, if they somehow manage to survive the climb, it's 7158 rounds , plus 232 rounds not making progress, so 7390 rounds.

Hitting on 20s for the first 77, that's 4 hits, times 51 damage... 204 damage. in the first two segments of distance. Times three, for three archers. 612.

for 3656 rounds of the climb, they have cover. hitting on eighteen-twenty... 548 hits, times 51, 27948 damage, times three for three archers. 83844 damage.

The other half they don't. on 14-20, 1096 hits, times 51, times three. 167688 damage.

Total damage from archers: 252144 damage.
Total damage from falling: 1674 damage.
All together: 253718 damage.
For each party member: 63429 damage.
Time spent to reach them: Twelve hours and change.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-18, 03:02 PM
*snip*Fine. Teleport. Failing that, swordsage, using a maneuver to replicate dimension door. Or a druid wildshaping into anything non-threatening, then slaughtering all of them in melee. Or simply invisibility+fly. Or maybe even just fly, depending on how good you are at convincing the DM that "No, they really shouldn't be able to shoot us when we have the sun right behind us". At ECL 10, all of those should be common.

Admiral Squish
2008-03-18, 03:29 PM
Right. Because magic is ALWAYS fair. ANYTHING can be circumvented by a wizard, because they're freakin' wizards! Name anything another character can do and a wizard can do it freakin' better. Which, frankly, pisses me off.

However, we're not here to discuss ways around X, Y, and Z, with the right spell combo, we're here to discuss some crazy numbers you've gotten with the right combos. Please try to stay on-topic.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 04:34 PM
You're still assuming they're charging across a field. The mountain scenario, as I've said, is much more favorable, and even has some nice flavor to it.

The flat plain scenario is already ridiculously stupid. The fighters would have to be out of their minds to try that attack. The mountain scenario would be beyond stupid.

Any sort of assault where you're vulnerable for 500 rounds is an idiotic scenario that you'd never see.

And, like I said, a party of heavily-armored fighters is not threatening. A wizard of the same level can wipe them all out with scant effort.

Admiral Squish
2008-03-18, 04:48 PM
The flat plain scenario is already ridiculously stupid. The fighters would have to be out of their minds to try that attack. The mountain scenario would be beyond stupid.

Any sort of assault where you're vulnerable for 500 rounds is an idiotic scenario that you'd never see.

And, like I said, a party of heavily-armored fighters is not threatening. A wizard of the same level can wipe them all out with scant effort.

Like I said. Because magic is ALWAYS fair and balanced. And like I also said We're not here to talk about what gets around what, alright? Stay on topic.

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 08:42 PM
All the advancing party needs to do is use tower shields to completely negate any ranged fire from the archer.

This reminds me of an encounter my brother used in a game. There was an elite squad of elves that had a variety of classes, items and feats to make their range stretch into miles. They had a druid to cast wind tunnel to guide their attacks. Our encampment was attacked from about 5 miles away. Artillery elves are cool.

Alleine
2008-03-18, 10:01 PM
What I find strange is that any PC might even think of the Cragtop archer PrC.
Yes, it has a disturbingly large attack range, but when is a PC going to get to utilize that?
I know my group is rarely outside adventuring in wide open terrain or laying waste to a town they legally can't even see.


As for crazy numbers/math, Hulking Hurler. I tried to recreate it for a campaign(using normal boulders, not that ungodly sphere of doom though I had one just in case) but gave up at roughly 70 str, because I didn't want all the math involved in polymorphing, cleric buffing, barbarian raging, magic item insanity of finding out how much damage a such-in-such sized ball of iridium would do, and exactly how much weight you <i>could</i> carry.

I stopped reading the thread when they started talking about how many attacks they could destroy the planet in.