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Frosty
2008-03-18, 02:00 AM
I've looked over a few TWF builds, and for the most they just don't impress me compared to what two-handers can do with shock trooper. So far, this is the best build I've come up with to do a decent amount of damage with TWF. Are there any better ones out there?

If I were to ever do two weapon fighting, I'd do this if I could start at around level 10 or so.

Scout3/Ranger6/Barbarian1/Cleric1/Scout2/Ranger7

Do Lion Totem Barbarian to gain Pounce instead of fast movement. Also, use Unearthed Arcana to trade Rage away in return for an extra Favored Enemy.

Trade away one of the Evasions you get for Spell Deflection your Dex bonus/day.

Must have feats: Weapon Finesse, Travel Devotion, Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish.

Domains to choose: Undeath (gain Extra Turning to fuel Travel Devotion), and Travel.

Swift Hunter lets your ranger and scout levels stack for Skirmish. Skirmish is easier to pull off than sneak attack because you only need to move 10 ft. In order to get a full attack while moving, your one barbarian level allows you to get Pounce, which means you can do a Full Attack in a charge. Travel Devotion allows you to move up to your speed as a swift action, so you can move away and charge on the same turn. The fability lasts one minute per use. Every use beyond the first in the day, you've gotta burn 2 turn attempts. That's where the cleric level and the bonus feat from Undeath domain comes into play.

Swift Hunter also allows you to crit and skirmish things normally immune to crit and skirmish, like oozes, constructs and undead. That is...if you have them as favored enemies. Guess what you'll be taking as your favored enemies? All the types that are immune to precision damage.

So there you go. You can now do 7 attacks a turn, each with an extra 5d6 damage for a total of 35d6 damage before any weapon damage or str bonus is applied. If using light maces for the Lightning Mace feat, with its 1d6 damage, that means if all your attacks hit, you'll do 42d6 + your str bonuses and all that. If you take Improved Critical, you've got a decent chance of getting an extra hit off because when you swing 7 times, there's a good change you'll score a critical threat, which allows you an extra attack.

I'm thinking Rogues can do more damage, but they can't do it as consistently because Sneak Attack is harder to pull off, and there are so many things immune to it.

Grynning
2008-03-18, 02:26 AM
For a bit of extra damage, throw in the two-weapon rend feat from PHBII. Extra 1d6+ 1.5x str. every time you connect with both weapons.
I also really like dervish builds for TWF. If you were doing gestalt, something like Scout20//Ranger 6/Ftr 2/Dervish 10/Tempest 2 can be pretty disgusting. Thousand Cuts + Dervish Dance + Skirmish = buckets o' damage.

Edit: Actually, you could do your build on one side of the gestalt, since it involves no PRC's, then do a Fighter/Dervish/Tempest build on the other side. Fighter 5/Dervish 10/Tempest 5 is easiest.
Gods, gestalts are fun on paper, aren't they?

Ganurath
2008-03-18, 02:35 AM
I like building toward Lightning Mace + Crushing Strike myself. Tack on Two-Weapon Rend, Improved Buckler Defense for AC... Is there any way to increase the light mace's threat range beyond 19-20?

Chronicled
2008-03-18, 02:35 AM
I think we're needing Tome of Battle for this. The Tiger Claw discipline holds the answers to all your TWF wishes!

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 02:36 AM
For a bit of extra damage, throw in the two-weapon rend feat from PHBII. Extra 1d6+ 1.5x str. every time you connect with both weapons.
I also really like dervish builds for TWF. If you were doing gestalt, something like Scout20//Ranger 6/Ftr 2/Dervish 10/Tempest 2 can be pretty disgusting. Thousand Cuts + Dervish Dance + Skirmish = buckets o' damage.

Edit: Actually, you could do your build on one side of the gestalt, since it involves no PRC's, then do a Fighter/Dervish/Tempest build on the other side. Fighter 5/Dervish 10/Tempest 5 is easiest.
Gods, gestalts are fun on paper, aren't they?

Tempest is a trap. Bloodclaw master 2 is much, much better.

Grynning
2008-03-18, 02:37 AM
BOOO! TOB being brought up already...

And I really don't see tempest as a "trap". 5 levels, full BAB, reduces your twf penalties and gives you extra AC. Not every PRC has to come with flashing lights and a free cookie, y'know.

Chronicled
2008-03-18, 02:37 AM
I like building toward Lightning Mace + Crushing Strike myself. Tack on Two-Weapon Rend, Improved Buckler Defense for AC... Is there any way to increase the light mace's threat range beyond 19-20?

Yes. Get Kukris (or any other 18-20 crit weapon), and give the +1 Adaptive Aptitude enhancement from Tome of Battle, which lets them count for any feats you have that apply only to a specific weapon... like Lightning Mace. Now your crit range can be 15-20 (using Keen or Imp Crit)!

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 02:38 AM
Is there any way to increase the light mace's threat range beyond 19-20?

Use and aptitude weapon with 18-20 crit.

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 02:41 AM
And I really don't see tempest as a "trap". 5 levels, full BAB, reduces your twf penalties and gives you extra AC. Not every PRC has to come with flashing lights and a free cookie, y'know.

Compared to what you should be taking, it sucks. Whoo, +2 to attack.

Chronicled
2008-03-18, 02:46 AM
In a discussion about TWF, Person Man's advice proves super effective. Since I don't want to go forum stalk late at night, here's a recent post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4054427&postcount=14) of his that some might find fun and relevant.


And I really don't see tempest as a "trap". 5 levels, full BAB, reduces your twf penalties and gives you extra AC. Not every PRC has to come with flashing lights and a free cookie, y'know.

If any of my PCs asked to take Tempest, I'd refuse their request since I'm not a sadist. That PrC sucks SO HARD.

SO HARD.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-18, 02:58 AM
Swordsage 20 with Wisdom and Dex to damage is my favorite.

Though Warblade 20 With Int could be good.

Or for fun, Barbarian 1 (Lion Totem of course)/Swashbuckler 3/Warblade 16.

Int to damage twice. Get a decent Str, then pump Int and hope someone sets up to flank your charge.

Fitz
2008-03-18, 04:26 AM
Surprised no one has mentioned oversize 2 weapon fighting, paired bastard swords would up the damage, you pump strength instead of dex, and get larger dice for damage.
of course that tails off at higher levels, but good for level 2 to about 4/5

Fitz

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 05:15 AM
I hate the concept of dual wielding bastard swords. I see it so much and I can't understand what draws people to it. It's ridiculous.

leperkhaun
2008-03-18, 05:38 AM
the revenant blade PrC from ebberon allows a vaalanor elf to wield a double simitar and add 1.5 str to both ends.

its pretty good for a TWF shock trooper build.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-18, 05:41 AM
Any build that gives you an extra move action or pounce is golden for this. I'm playing a 2WF pyschic rogue with hustle in a game starting up next week.

sun_tzu
2008-03-18, 06:00 AM
What's wrong with Steel Tempest?:smallconfused: It's served my human fighter well.

Artemician
2008-03-18, 06:04 AM
I recall OneWinged4ngel was rather fond of that Bard 4/ Warblade 16 build with Dragonfire Inspiration and Song of the White Raven.

+15d6 Energy damage to every strike? Yes please!

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 06:06 AM
What's wrong with Steel Tempest? It's served my human fighter well.

First where are you getting 'Steel' from? It's just Tempest. Second, it's abilities aren't any good, the pre-requisites are counter intuitive, it doesn't actually let you do anything you couldn't do before and it doesn't provide extra damage of any kind.

Artemician
2008-03-18, 06:10 AM
First where are you getting 'Steel' from? It's just Tempest. Second, it's abilities aren't any good, the pre-requisites are counter intuitive, it doesn't actually let you do anything you couldn't do before and it doesn't provide extra damage of any kind.

It's not good but it ain't bad either. You take Tempest if you have nothing else better to take. It doesn't screw you over really. And it's better than Fighter at least.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-18, 06:28 AM
For two-weapon fighting, I'm fond of a pure rogue using UMD and wands for touch spells at high caster level - a Druid's Produce Flame (Effect spell, doesn't vanish when you cast another spell, as you aren't holding the charge) and Chill Touch (Touch spell) being my favorites for melee range, dual Produce Flame spells for at range. Sure, it works out to 15 gp/attack, but a two-weapon full attack touch attack sneak attack on the first round will generally wipe out anything subject to it that's level appropriate.

One of the other effective two-weapon styles is the one that uses Armor Spikes (or a similar no-hand weapon) as the secondary weapon, and uses a normal two-handed weapon as the primary.

Krelon
2008-03-18, 06:43 AM
Curious, since I seem not to possess all the material you take the feats and classes, I wanted to ask from which book is Lion Totem Barbarian, Travel Devotion and Swift Hunter?

Btw, is there a way to get pounce with a feat? I see it is quite powerful with TWF.

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 06:49 AM
Complete Champion.

There is no way to get Pounce with a feat.

Rift_Wolf
2008-03-18, 07:22 AM
If you cut off both your hands and use stump knives, the critical threat range goes up after three rounds from 18-20 to 17-20 (I think). Now add keen to both weapons. I think that means after 3 rounds against the same enemy you get a crit range of 14-20 on top of all that damage.
Of course, your build would suffer xp penalties, even if human.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 07:27 AM
I hate the concept of dual wielding bastard swords. I see it so much and I can't understand what draws people to it. It's ridiculous.

It's also a total RuneQuest thing, not a D&D thing. (In the sidebar story in Cults of Terror and Lords of Terror, the two heroes are even described as wielding iron bastard swords in both hands.)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-18, 07:28 AM
Complete Champion.

There is no way to get Pounce with a feat.

Two. Weapon. Pounce. PHBII, I believe.

Touché.

sun_tzu
2008-03-18, 07:35 AM
First where are you getting 'Steel' from? It's just Tempest.
Assuming we're talking about the prestige class from the Complete Adventurer, it was translated as "Tempete d'acier" in the French manual I got it from.
And really...with four levels of it, I got +2 to AC and +6 to AB. Not too shabby, IMO.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-18, 07:36 AM
I'm a fan of Dervish dual wielding scimitars, personally... but that just may be me.

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 07:40 AM
Two. Weapon. Pounce. PHBII, I believe.

Touché.

That's not real pounce, it only lets you attack once with each weapon.

Darrin
2008-03-18, 07:42 AM
Surprised no one has mentioned oversize 2 weapon fighting, paired bastard swords would up the damage, you pump strength instead of dex, and get larger dice for damage.
of course that tails off at higher levels, but good for level 2 to about 4/5


I am the biggest fan of bastard swords, but it's not worth it. You have to burn two feats (EWP and OversizeTWF), and in a TWF build you don't have a lot of extra feats to burn. The extra damage of oversizing two bastard swords is minimal, +1 more than dual longswords, and only +2 more than dual short swords. Pumping strength instead of dex may lock you out of ImpTWF and GrTWF, and in order to match the damage payout of PA+LA you have to hit more than four times (only half str bonus on your offhand strikes).

A Swift Ambusher build can keep up with the UberPA junkies:

Scout 4/Ranger 6/Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2 (you can squeeze Barbarian in there by dropping a level of Scout or Ranger, but you lose a bonus feat)

This gets your skirmish damage up to 8d6, 10d6 with Improved Skirmish+Travel Devotion. That's 35 bonus damage on average. To compete with PA+LA, at ECL 20 they can dump 20 BAB for 80 extra damage, so you've got to hit at least three times (35 x 3 = 105 damage) to keep up. But the build above uses every single feat plus bonus feats to pull that off. The PA+LA thug can get away with just two feats, or more likely just four: PA, IBR, LA, Shock Trooper. He has at least three more feats, plus fighter/PrC bonus feats to improve his damage or do something else.

Darrin
2008-03-18, 07:44 AM
There is no way to get Pounce with a feat.

Careful, you're going to make the Snow Tiger Berzerkers and Lion Tribe Warriors cry:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Snow_Tiger_Berserker,Una
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Lion_Tribe_Warrior,ShS
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Catfolk_Pounce,RW

Darrin
2008-03-18, 08:03 AM
Also, use Unearthed Arcana to trade Rage away in return for an extra Favored Enemy.

Rage: the +2 damage that works against *ALL* enemies is going to be more useful than +2 damage that only works against one type of creature. If you're going to trade Rage away in a TWF build, I'd go with Whirling Frenzy first for the extra attack. Dodge bonus to dex, too.

There may be one build that outperforms a Swift Ambusher, but I haven't really sat down to work it out and run the numbers yet: Shadow Pounce + Ruby Knight Vindicator. 3 full attacks + 1 full attack per 2 turning attempts. A sample build, but not really optimized for damage output:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10744037#post10744037

Nebo_
2008-03-18, 08:09 AM
Careful, you're going to make the Snow Tiger Berzerkers and Lion Tribe Warriors cry:

There's no way to get real pounce with a feat. Is that better?

Keld Denar
2008-03-18, 08:13 AM
Two Weapon Pounce from PHBII only allows for 1 attack with each weapon, so its not a full pounce like Lion Totem Barb is. In fact, it pretty much sucks because its prereqs are totally incompatable with with TWF in much the same way Tempest's prereqs are. Its bad.

Yeah, a Bard4/Warblade 16 who has his Dragonfire Bardsong running who boosts Raging Mongoose will get 11 attacks in a round. Max possible bardsong with Song of the White Raven (4 + 1 Song of the Heart +1 Badge of Valor +1 Inspirational Boost) x2 Words of Creation = +14d6 Dragonfire max using the most advantageous stacking of the multiplier. If all 11 attacks hit, thats 154d6 bonus damage. If the Warblade used Time Stands Still (which I believe is a full round action, not a boost) this would double to 308d6 damage, just from Dragonfire Insp (about 1078 dmg). This damage would not be affected at all by crits, so whatever weapons used are acceptable. This is disregarding all other damage modifiers such as from Stance, Feats, Weapon Enhancements, and spells.

You could get it a bit higher by taking 1 level of Exotic Weapon Master using a Double Bladed Sword for Flurry of Strikes, taking the WF-WS-MWM-Slashing Fury for another attack, and adding in Haste. This would result in 3 extra attacks or 14 attacks in a round for 14^2 d6 damage (196d6) and with Time Stands Still for double that (392d6) (1372 dmg average). If you took some Aberant feats to get some natural tentacle attacks, you could rock this up even more, but then you wouldn't be TWF anymore, you'd be multiattacking with a side of TWF, to go.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-18, 08:19 AM
... I don't believe I've -ever- see anyone recommend a two-bladed sword before. I've always wanted to use one just for the cool factor.

DrizztFan24
2008-03-18, 08:43 AM
I am 99% sure these are homebrew feats (I have very few books so they could be found in ones I don't have) but they can negate the penalty for TWF or increase damage based on your selected weapon.

Weapon Grace
You get to use your dex modifier instead of strength for regional weapons.

Twin Weapon Fighting
You suffer only a -2 attack pentaly to both weapons when wielding two of the same weapon. (dual wield picks with only a -2)

Two-Weapon Focus
When wielding a weapon that you have weapon focus in each hand with you can reduce the fighting penalty by 1, or 2 if the weapon is light.

Two-Weapon Power
You can double the power attack bonus damage when TWF.

So dual wield a scimitar with weapon grace, high dex, power attack, twin weapon fighting, two-weapon focus, and two-weapon power. Double your power attack bonus and suffer only a -1 to each attack.

Keld Denar
2008-03-18, 08:50 AM
... I don't believe I've -ever- see anyone recommend a two-bladed sword before. I've always wanted to use one just for the cool factor.

You could do it with an Orc Double Axe as well, you just need a double slashing weapon to qualify for both Slashing Fury and Flurry of Strikes. I personally like the crit range of a Double Sword more than the multiplier of the axe, but thats a mater of flavor. I'm not familiar with any other double slashing weapons in core, although there is the Double Scimitar in Sandstorm or something.

Personally, I thought it would be kind of cool to make a 2handed power attacking character who uses just 1 side of a double weapon. You can get different materials and enhancements on either side to deal with different situations. You gain the extra attack fighting 2handed from Flurry of Strikes, get the nice 1.5x str and 2:1 PA. You could even do it as a Dwarf with an Urgosh and you wouldn't even have to pay the EWP feat cost. Neat idea IMO, but not for this thread.

Holy hell, now I want to build a Dwarf Fighter/Barb/Deepwarden/EWM/XXX with an Urgosh. What a beast. Maybe Occult Slayer to finish? Or Warblade? Hmmmm.

Darrin
2008-03-18, 09:00 AM
There's no way to get real pounce with a feat. Is that better?

How is Snow Tiger Berzerker not a real pounce?

Darrin
2008-03-18, 09:04 AM
If all 11 attacks hit, thats 154d6 bonus damage. If the Warblade used Time Stands Still (which I believe is a full round action, not a boost) this would double to 308d6 damage, just from Dragonfire Insp (about 1078 dmg).

Minor nitpick: Time Stands Still lets you make two full-attacks as a full-round action, but Raging Mongoose can only be used once per round: you get 18 (11 + 7) attacks, not 22 (11 + 11).

Frosty
2008-03-18, 10:31 AM
Rage: the +2 damage that works against *ALL* enemies is going to be more useful than +2 damage that only works against one type of creature. If you're going to trade Rage away in a TWF build, I'd go with Whirling Frenzy first for the extra attack. Dodge bonus to dex, too.

There may be one build that outperforms a Swift Ambusher, but I haven't really sat down to work it out and run the numbers yet: Shadow Pounce + Ruby Knight Vindicator. 3 full attacks + 1 full attack per 2 turning attempts. A sample build, but not really optimized for damage output:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10744037#post10744037

The reason why you take Favored enemy is because of Swift Hunter. You can critically hit and deal precision damage to ALL of your favored enemies, regardless of their normal immunities. If you have FE (humans), suddenly, every human wearing Heavy Fortification armor has just wasted a lot of money if wearing it against you. You can now do skirmish/SA on Golems! Elementals, Undead, Oozes, Plants!! Since you only have 13 Ranger levels, you want that last Favored Enemy from Barbarian to make up for lost Favored Enemies.

And for those who don't know, Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish is from Complete Scoundrel. Lion Totem barb and Travel Devotion are from Complete Champion. A lot of class variants are from Unearthed Arcana.

Person_Man
2008-03-18, 10:55 AM
Here are a bunch of strong TWF elements that you might want to consider:

Ways to Get Pounce (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=5305146): There is no reason for an ECL 11ish+ melee build not to have Pounce. The easiest ways are Complete Champion Lion Totem Barbarian, Psychic Warrior (Hustle, Lion's Pounce), Ranger (Spell Comp, Lion's Pounce) or Pouncing Charge (ToB, Tiger Claw), or anything that Wildshapes or Polymorphs into something with Pounce. You should also get Leap Attack. Shock Trooper is debatable for TWF, as you won't have reach to defend yourself against counter attacks.

Tome of Battle Tricks (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=680285): There are tons ToB combos.

Bard Inspire Courage Abuse (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816095): Level/2-ish * 1d6 energy damage for everyone in the party.

Oversized TWF (Comp Adventurer) or Improved Unarmed Strike: Either will allow all of your attacks to qualify for Power Attack.

Favored Power Attack (Comp. Warrior): Ups your Power Attack damage. Take Favored Enemy Arcanists (Comp Mage) and Favored Enemy Evil (Stalker of Kharash, Harper Paragon) plus other common enemies so that it applies to basically everyone.

Multiply!: Headlong Rush (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a), Battle Jump (Unapproachable East), Spirited Charge with two lances, Rhino's Rush (Spell Comp), Cavalier (Comp Warrior), etc. Remember, bonus dice of damage aren't multiplied. But static bonuses (Power Attack et al) are.

Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook): Every time you make an AoO, you can attack with your off hand at the same time. There are a ton of ways to generate these (Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Hold the Line, Headlong Rush, etc). Requires retardly high Dex to work well.

Touch Attacks: Makes it much easier to hit: Flame Blade, Pyrokineticist, Master Thrower (Comp Warrior), Spectral Weapon (Spell Comp), Wraithstrike (Spell Comp), Brilliant Energy, etc. Makes it much easier to hit. By RAW, you can use Touch Attacks with Power Attack, just like you can use Power Attack with Combat Expertise. The FAQ even specifically says that you can use Power Attack with a Fire Lash.

Greater Invisibility: Makes it easier for you to hit enemy, and much harder for them to hit you. If your friends are jerks and won't cast it on you, buy a Ring of Blinking and take the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Comp Arcane) to ignore all magical miss chances (including your 20% from the ring).

Ways to Get Natural Attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29095): Sometimes more efficient then TWF as a method of getting extra attacks.

Unarmed Strikes: 12d8 unarmed damage isn't that hard to get. For example:
Shifter Monk 3/Psychic Warrior 3/Warshaper 1/Fist of the Forest 3/Psychic Warrior X

A Monk's Belt increases your effective Monk level by 5 levels.

Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle) increases your effective Monk level by 4 levels.

Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) increases your unarmed Monk damage by two steps up the Monk scale. Since you're effectively a 12th level Monk, this increases your unarmed damage from 2d6 to 2d10.

Improved Natural Attack increases your effective size for one natural weapon size by one step, from 2d10 to 4d8.

One level of Warshaper increases your effective size of all natural weapons by one step, from 4d8 to 6d8.

Use the augmented version of the Expansion power to increase your size by two steps, increasing your unarmed damage from 6d8 to 8d8 to 12d8. If you're playing a mid level game and don't have enough Psychic Warrior levels to use the augmented version, consider picking up the Overchannel feat.

Take Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm. Now whenever you hit an enemy, you get a free Grapple check. If you succeed, you deal Unarmed Strike damage (again) and can finish out your full attack with opposed Grapple checks, dealing unarmed strike damage every time you win.

If you can't be a Shifter, take Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis) instead, which also lets you qualify for Warshaper.

If you're in Eberron, you can take Monastic Training and Tashalatora feats so that your Psychic Warrior levels stack with your Monk levels for unarmed damage, so you won't need a Monk's Belt or Superior Unarmed Strike.

Also, although this method is the most efficient, there are others. Here's the list of stuff (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=662842). Scroll down to Increasing Monk Damage.

There are a lot of TWF builds out there that depend on unreliable sources of damage/effects. They can be fun, but any combo (including my previously posted combos) that depend on Precision Damage (Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, Skirmish), critical hits (Improved Critical, Lightning Mace + Aptitude, Vorpal, Psychic Weapon Master), ability damage (Wounding, Crippling Strike, Mind Cripple, Maiming Strike), or Fear effects (Disciple of the Eye, Avenging Executioner) are inherently nerfed, because so many enemies are immune to them. For example, undead, contructs, elementals, ooze, swarms, and plants. There are workarounds for some of these, but why invest even more resources into an already inefficient build just to force a particular combo? For example, the most you'll get out of a Swift Hunter combo is 7d6ish Skirmish at ECL 20ish. That's just 24.5 average damage per hit, less then half of what you'd get using the other things I've posted.

They're playable. And they can make many Skill Monkey builds better. But if you're going to play them, you have to accept that your DM will throw combats at you where your combo is completely useless.

I would also avoid Tempest and Bloodclaw Master. There are easier and better things to do with your class levels.

Frosty
2008-03-18, 11:16 AM
True, but doing only 7d6 per attack is less likely to end an encounter within 2 rounds, forcing the DM to throw tougher monsters at you. Doing like 300d6 per round will just make cause the DM to make you create another character or ban that combo.

Stapler
2008-03-18, 11:22 AM
*edit removed post.

Sofaking
2008-03-18, 11:28 AM
I'm playing an 5 Invisible blade/ 7 rogue in our current campaign and I duel wield daggers and have a handy wand of cloud of knives I use to get an extra dagger attack every round. So now I have 5 attacks a round with 7d6 SA damage and if I can pull off a bluff check (I usually can) it is pretty awesome.

Ganurath
2008-03-18, 11:37 AM
Yes. Get Kukris (or any other 18-20 crit weapon), and give the +1 Adaptive Aptitude enhancement from Tome of Battle, which lets them count for any feats you have that apply only to a specific weapon... like Lightning Mace. Now your crit range can be 15-20 (using Keen or Imp Crit)!
Use and aptitude weapon with 18-20 crit.It seems I did not speak clearly. Is was asking this because Lightning Mace, from Complete Warrior, gives you an extra attack whenever you threaten a critical hit while using a light mace in each hand. Combine that with PHB II's Crushing Strike, which gives you +1 to hit whenever you hit, and you're looking at a massive buildup of violence if you can reliably get criticals threatened with a light mace. Not a kukri. So, anything to widen the threat range other than Improved Crit?

Edit: Oh, wait, reread, new problem: Don't have ToB.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-18, 11:52 AM
Person Man: I asked about the Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt in the RAW question thread, Lord Silvanos pointed out that both increase your effective monk level, but are not bonuses so can not stack, they would overlap.

Frosty
2008-03-18, 11:53 AM
I think that Aptitude Enhancement lets eht Kukris count as Light Maces (or anything else they want to count for) in terms of using them with feats that only work with a certain weapon type. In other words, the enhancement fools Lightning Mace into working with Kukris, which is MUCH better.

Person_Man
2008-03-18, 12:12 PM
True, but doing only 7d6 per attack is less likely to end an encounter within 2 rounds, forcing the DM to throw tougher monsters at you. Doing like 300d6 per round will just make cause the DM to make you create another character or ban that combo.

Power Attack can be adjusted up or down at will. So if your goal is to "manage" your DM, take a powerful Power Attack combo, use it only as needed, and then focus the rest of your feats and class abilities on battlefield control and defense. That way your DM won't have to throw a ton of enemies at you, but you'll always have the option of the super combo in case you need it.



Person Man: I asked about the Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt in the RAW question thread, Lord Silvanos pointed out that both increase your effective monk level, but are not bonuses so can not stack, they would overlap.

Whoops. Right you are. That means you need to take Monastic Training and Tashalatora feats so that your Psychic Warrior levels stack with your Monk levels for unarmed damage, or you can take 4 additional levels of Monk or a Monk PrC that stacks for unarmed damage.

Keld Denar
2008-03-18, 12:13 PM
I think that Aptitude Enhancement lets eht Kukris count as Light Maces (or anything else they want to count for) in terms of using them with feats that only work with a certain weapon type. In other words, the enhancement fools Lightning Mace into working with Kukris, which is MUCH better.

I believe there was something in the FAQ, I remember reading over on CharOp. Weapon Aptitude weapons only work on feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and Weapon Supremacy, which require you to apply the feat to a specific weapon. It won't let you abuse feats like Lightning Maces, Quickstaff, Three Mountains, or Crushing Blow. Sorry.

Frosty
2008-03-18, 12:55 PM
'm kind of tired of Power Attack though. If I wanted to PA I'd go with a two-hander.

Person_Man
2008-03-18, 03:14 PM
'm kind of tired of Power Attack though. If I wanted to PA I'd go with a two-hander.

Well that's certainly understandable.

My favorite PC of all time was actually a Kobold Scout. I played a strait Scout specifically because I have a rep for optimizing everything (in my defense, I play in a group full of veteran gamers), and I wanted to show that you could have a great time with a weak build. I did. But he had to carry a haversack full of special items so that he could be useful during combats with enemies immune to Precision Damage. Even if he has been a Swift Hunter with Favored Enemy (Evil), Constructs, Elementals, and Plants, its still think he would have been screwed by the BBEG we fought with Fortification armor.

Again, I had a phenomenal time roleplaying playing him. It's a good challenge, and I suggest that everyone play a strait Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, Scout, or something similar at least once during their D&D career. But after a while I really resented the fact that I had to jump through so many hoops in order to be useful in combat, whereas the Wizard, Cleric, Swordsage, and Psychic Warrior had an easy time coming up with cool things to do. So I think its important that people who play a lot of D&D understand the relative power of different options, and make reasonable decisions accordingly.

kme
2008-03-18, 03:25 PM
Stormguard warrior from ToB can also be great for TWF, especially if you have pounce or even better shadow pounce. If have shadow pounce, don't forget to take one level of ardent to get Dimension Hop power :smallwink: .

Ganurath
2008-03-18, 03:32 PM
I believe there was something in the FAQ, I remember reading over on CharOp. Weapon Aptitude weapons only work on feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and Weapon Supremacy, which require you to apply the feat to a specific weapon. It won't let you abuse feats like Lightning Maces, Quickstaff, Three Mountains, or Crushing Blow. Sorry.Furthermore, Crushing Strike applies to Bludgeoning Weapons, not any specific weapon. So, Weapon Aptitude wouldn't help with that.

Frosty
2008-03-18, 03:36 PM
I'm playing a barbarian/fighter right now at level 6. All I do really is charge. Oh, and I jump really well so I can charge easier (I jump over enemies).

I usually prefer having more options than that :smalltongue:

asphen fox
2008-03-18, 08:56 PM
One feat. Stormguard Warrior. One Ability. Combat Rhythm. Book? ToB.

Frosty
2008-03-18, 09:06 PM
And it does?

asphen fox
2008-03-18, 09:23 PM
if you use combat rhythm, you do melee touch attacks in place of normal melee attacks against an opponent. No damage.for each melee attack that hits, you get +5 bonus on melee damage rolls against the same foe next turn. :smallbiggrin: Tis awesome :D

Frosty
2008-03-18, 09:29 PM
ooh. Rogues like.