Anyone else getting annoyned by Celia?

[Eita]

She's overly sanctimonious, preachy, and not at all practical. She's someone that I would eventually hate in any setting. The thing is though, the way she acts makes no sense considering what she does. A lawyer should not be concerned about puppies.

[Shalewind]

Depends on what type of lawyer you are. No doubt Greenpeace Lawyers are concerned for puppies.

It’s been suggested in many of the other threads that Celia’s behavior is akin to that of a liberal college student. Her attitudes and actions all reflect playing her alignment without any real world experience to temper her strict LG viewpoint.

I think that hypothesis makes a lot sense.

[Morty]

Well, she certainly provides a point of view different than "A problem? Let's kill stuff!" philosophy used by Belkar and Haley. I think making non-adventurer team up with adventurers is a great way to poke fun at typical player mentality.

[Wikkin]

I like her a lot. She's gotten some great one-liners too. "Do you need me to show you where the door is?" etc.

Wik

[Kish]

A lawyer should not be concerned about puppies.
...I really wish I thought this was a joke.

Seriously. "Lawyer" is a perfectly legitimate career, with no shortage of good, ethical people (and animal lovers). Making lawyer jokes is one thing. Forgetting that jokes is what they are and assuming, based on "lawyer," that a character is being mischaracterized if she shows compassion is quite another.

[Charles Phipps]

...I really wish I thought this was a joke.

Seriously. "Lawyer" is a perfectly legitimate career, with no shortage of good, ethical people (and animal lovers). Making lawyer jokes is one thing. Forgetting that jokes is what they are and assuming, based on "lawyer," that a character is being mischaracterized if she shows compassion is quite another.

Lawyers are also expected to be individuals that are acquainted with a large amount of real world application of law and the gray areas of existence. If Celia is a criminal lawyer as well, you need a certain amount of jadeness to be effective (just like being a cop).

Unless you're Phoenix Wright in which all of your clients are not-guilty (except the one.)

[Paladin29]

Celia is a perfect example of a Good aligment, she allways will try to save lives, even her enemies lives. A Good character only takes lives when it´s neccesary, and face it, killing the gnome was EVIL and Belkar should pay for that.

[David Argall]

Any comic character is supposed to be "annoying" in one manner or other. Celia is currently doing that by being foolishly good.

[bluewind95]

Celia seems to be that perfectly naive little girl who's been living in her protected bubble all her life. Finding her in this context is amusing to me, rather than annoying.

[theinsulabot]

as long as she doesn't slide torwads miko ishness (god knows, one was enough) i don't have a problem. the giant likes to poke fun at all kinds of dnd types and behaviors, and a pretty good one is how often adventurers, even supposedly good ones, will resort to wanton violence in furtherance of there goals, even if not strictly speaking, completely nessasary

[Nevrmore]

Spoilers for Dominic Deegan, if you care.

In Dominic Deegan, there was an early character, Siegfried, who started out as a knight who had a severe anger problem to the point of beating anyone who would befoul him, including, in one memorable instance, the main character's brother, Gregory, who at the time was extremely weak and had a crippled leg. Despite this, he was a quite popular character in the fandom with some people who were otherwise quite critical of the comic as a whole citing that they enjoyed Siggy.

While there's no definite proof of this, it's suspected by a few of the fandom that Michael (the writer of the comic) was perplexed at why people were warming up to a character he had meant to be despised, and so it's believed that, in an attempt to make us dislike him, he suddenly "revealed" that Siegfried was ridiculously racist against the comic's iteration of orcs (mostly peace-loving nomads who keep to themselves and mean no harm to anyone). This usage of Fantastic Racism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasticRacism) quickly escalated from him saying "Orcs don't count as people" to him having proclaimed that "there has never been an orc who has known truth, honor, loyalty, or love" to him having beaten orc children, presumably to death. Even after his death, this horrific expansion of a before not-even-hinted at trait continued until, as the final coup de grace to what was once a good character, it was revealed that he killed an entire village of orcs as a birthday present to his father.

When I read the latest OotS, I immediately thought of Siegfried. Now don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not accusing Rich of intentionally destroying Celia in an attempt to garner dislike of her, but this sudden appearance of these Miko-esque tendencies to do good is becoming really worrisome to me.

[Green Bean]

When I read the latest OotS, I immediately thought of Siegfried. Now don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not accusing Rich of intentionally destroying Celia in an attempt to garner dislike of her, but this sudden appearance of these Miko-esque tendencies to do good is becoming really worrisome to me.

The thing is, Celia's pretty much the exact opposite of Miko at this point. Miko would have absolutely no problem killing her way through the hobgoblins, and probably wouldn't have agreed to sneak past the hobgoblins in the first place, unless "sneak past" is some sort of euphemism for "Smite". Hmm. Actually, Celia as Miko's opposite raises all sorts of interesting thoughts about the Miko/Roy/Celia relationship.

[Nevrmore]

The thing is, Celia's pretty much the exact opposite of Miko at this point. Miko would have absolutely no problem killing her way through the hobgoblins, and probably wouldn't have agreed to sneak past the hobgoblins in the first place, unless "sneak past" is some sort of euphemism for "Smite". Hmm. Actually, Celia as Miko's opposite raises all sorts of interesting thoughts about the Miko/Roy/Celia relationship.
Well, by "Miko-esque tendencies" I meant her staunch attachment to undeniable good. It's obvious that Miko is an Ends Justify the Means person while Celia is, uh, well, and Ends Doesn't Justify the Means person.

[ChaoticEvilGuy]

SHE HAS CROSSED THE LINE BETWEEN FUNNY AND ANNOYING!!!!!!!!! I RESPECT THAT SHE'S ROY'S GIRLFRIEND BUT STILL! I AM IN HER ANTI-FANCLU NOW! SHE'S THE MOST ANNOYING CHARACTER IN OOTS EVER! (INCLUDING MIKO)!:furious:
that is all I have to say

[Nevrmore]

SHE HAS CROSSED THE LINE BETWEEN FUNNY AND ANNOYING!!!!!!!!! I RESPECT THAT SHE'S ROY'S GIRLFRIEND BUT STILL! I AM IN HER ANTI-FANCLU NOW! SHE'S THE MOST ANNOYING CHARACTER IN OOTS EVER! (INCLUDING MIKO)!:furious:
that is all I have to say
Your rage is only bested by your eloquence, good sir.

[theinsulabot]

Your rage is only bested by your eloquence, good sir.


kudos for taking the high road and not making a FANCLU crack

[Nevrmore]

kudos for taking the high road and not making a FANCLU crack
Fans
Against
Non-
Chaotic
Lawfuls
United?

[Zeitgeist]

Anybody who consistently tells somebody that they are doing things wrong, but never offers a solution (because the way they are doing it is the most/only reasonable way to do it) is always annoying. Period.

[Alfryd]

*sigh* I thought I'd never see the day.

The thing is, Celia's pretty much the exact opposite of Miko at this point. Miko would have absolutely no problem killing her way through the hobgoblins, and probably wouldn't have agreed to sneak past the hobgoblins in the first place, unless "sneak past" is some sort of euphemism for "Smite". Hmm. Actually, Celia as Miko's opposite raises all sorts of interesting thoughts about the Miko/Roy/Celia relationship.
I'm glad someone else noticed. Yes, that seems quite prescient. (...Insofar as it's possible to even speak of a Miko/Roy relationship by this point...)


Well, by "Miko-esque tendencies" I meant her staunch attachment to undeniable good. It's obvious that Miko is an Ends Justify the Means person while Celia is, uh, well, and Ends Doesn't Justify the Means person.
Miko isn't really a Greater Good kinda gal. Everything she did she believed to be fully within the bounds of permissable, honourable, lawful, allowable, legitimate means- she was just wrong about what made them allowable. (Miko would never even consider impersonating a fiend or pretending to practice necromancy, even if she knew this were the only way not to give away the Resistance. In certain ways, Celia is much more flexible about finding conflict solutions other than the classic 'I hit it with pointy metal until it breaks'... I find it's one of her more likable qualities.)

Your rage is only bested by your eloquence, good sir.
Very droll.

I honestly don't understand why people here are getting so peeved at Celia. Celia has done exactly nothing wrong in the strip thus far, apart from point out the gaping flaws in Haley's long-term planning ability and grasp of moral consequence. She has bent over backwards to aid the party to the limit of her not-exactly-insignificant abilities, presented critical information, and formulated workable strategies to extricate her team-mates from trouble, all with a minimum of endangerment to sentient life. Oh, but because she has the audacity to suggest that our- quote-unquote- 'heroes' might be wrong, she's suddenly being considered as a sanctimonious harridan.

Look, with Miko, you people had some excuse: A lot of her justifications were fairly stretched- but this is a character who's actions have been unequivocally Good, Good, Good and more Good- Goodness veritably oozing from every pore of her body like a sebacious aura of warm actinic benovolence. Sure, it's not always 100% practical to be pacifist. Do you what else isn't 100% practical? Retaining a pint-sized analytically-challenged psychopath in your entourage. Or figuring that it's rational to spend 3 solid months waiting for a buzz from your wizardly girlfriend in the middle of a hobgoblin-infested warzone.

Because Celia has been about 98.9% right on both counts. She's lit a much-needed fire under Haley's ass, and should be thanked for it.

[Turcano]

Well, by "Miko-esque tendencies" I meant her staunch attachment to undeniable good. It's obvious that Miko is an Ends Justify the Means person while Celia is, uh, well, and Ends Doesn't Justify the Means person.

In other words, Miko was Lawful Stupid, while Celia is (or is fast becoming) Stupid Good.

[Eita]

I'd just like to point out that when Celia slapped some sense into Haley, I cheered. It's the naivety of "Don't kill the people who want to kill us!" that's making me mad. The stick that broke the camels back was when Haley was trying to accommodate Celia's ideals -albeit just a bit sarcastically- and Celia just went and exploded and acted like Haley was as bad as Belkar was for killing that gnome.

[The Extinguisher]

And yet, why do I feel that if Celia had decided that Haley was right and they should kill all the orangeskins, you'd all be complaining she had no spine. *sigh*

Think of it this way. It's a famillys sit-com. The family is the Order, who are notorious meat-eaters of everything meat. Along comes Celia, the teenager's vegetarian girlfriend. Hilarity ensues, but we learn a lesson that sometimes you need to respect others ideas and believes.

The point is, Celia is not an adventurer. She sees no need to kill things just because they are evil. She is literally the anti-miko. She shows how two characters of the same alignment can be so different.

[Lycanthromancer]

And how two characters of such different alignments can be the same.

[Cutsleeve]

I'm wondering how much of this Roy has scene. I mean he isn't visible in the scenes but i don't remember him getting pulled back to heaven, unless you count the Gygax strip. He may still be floating around but out of scene because they're Haley, Belkar, and Celia scenes and they cant see him.

[Eita]

And yet, why do I feel that if Celia had decided that Haley was right and they should kill all the orangeskins, you'd all be complaining she had no spine. *sigh*

Think of it this way. It's a famillys sit-com. The family is the Order, who are notorious meat-eaters of everything meat. Along comes Celia, the teenager's vegetarian girlfriend. Hilarity ensues, but we learn a lesson that sometimes you need to respect others ideas and believes.

The point is, Celia is not an adventurer. She sees no need to kill things just because they are evil. She is literally the anti-miko. She shows how two characters of the same alignment can be so different.

If that happened I'd be praising her for practicality.

Even if said believes get you killed? Belkar killed one Hobgoblin as a way to... encourage the other to let them go on through after they were being questioned. Celia is against that and may have gotten them killed because of it.

Yes. She's the anti-Miko. As in, the opposite of the spectrum. Too much of one thing is bad. Celia is on one end and is annoying at times. Miko is at the other and is... Miko. Roy is pretty much in the middle which is way so few people dislike him.

EDIT: Cutsleeve, in the strip before the Gygax tribute Roy was seen going back to Celestia.

[brionl]

Depends on what type of lawyer you are. No doubt Greenpeace Lawyers are concerned for puppies.

It’s been suggested in many of the other threads that Celia’s behavior is akin to that of a liberal college student. Her attitudes and actions all reflect playing her alignment without any real world experience to temper her strict LG viewpoint.

I think that hypothesis makes a lot sense.

Why do people keep saying Celia is Lawful Good? I don't think we've seen any signs of excessively lawful behavior from her. Because she's Roy's girlfriend? Opposite alignments attract sometimes, vis Elan & Nale's parents. Lawyerism? You'd want your prosecutor to be strictly lawful, but a good defense lawyer should be neutral good. Air element creatures aren't exactly known for lawfulness. The original Sylph in the AD&D Monster Manual was listed as Neutral (good tendencies).

Personally I suspect her of being Neutral Good. She's willing to go along with Haley's wild schemes, and even assist them (Darkblood Gloomgloom), but she's going to complain about it when she doesn't like it.

And no, I'm not getting annoyed with Celia. Won't somebody think of the puppies?!

[Laurentio]

Any comic character is supposed to be "annoying" in one manner or other. Celia is currently doing that by being foolishly good.
Yep. Celia is just as annoying as many other character, in a different way. We must credit to The Giant that he does his homeworks: secondary characters have a strong, ehm, characterization.
One thing: I don't thing that Celia is growing annoying with time. She just fell in a setting in which her "worst" costumes are shown. It's not that we had many more killing in front of her before this story arc. So let's cope with the fact that she can be a kind and sensible girl (and lover), while still a damned pain in the ass in a guerrilla.
Anyway, and I'll never stop to claim, I'm looking to her departure. By dead or dismiss, I've no preference. As an alternative, I'd prefer to see her paired with any other characters that is not so anti-polar to her (it's the constant bitching that I find annoying).
Probably she could get along with Durkan (that is more wise, experienced and open-minded than her. And when a dwarf is more open-minded than you...).

"Ye an' me will be havin' a conversation over wha is an' wha is not proper behavior fer a rogue party 'scaping o' a evil city"

Laurentio

[Tundar]

She's the type I would hate having in my own party, but she's still funny in OotS.

[Paladin29]

Well.. Durkon is a cleric of Thor.. that gives you a little of open-mindness :P . I Like Celia, she is the most similar thing we have to a real good person, I want to remain at least until the resurection of Roy, what can I do.. I am a romantic even in a comedy.

[The Extinguisher]

Yes. Anyone would hate her in a party. She is a non adventuring NPC with an NPC class.

You think of Shojo had gotten up and adventured with the Order, he'd have the same bang that he did has the ruler of Azure City?

No. They're called NPC classes for a reason.

[brilliantlight]

I agree that Cellia is getting annoying. I actually like how she dealt with Haley at the begining due to her practicality but now she becoming completely impractible. She should be able to figure out that killing a hobgoblin guard who is an enemy combatant is one thing and killing a hapless gnome is another. The first is because in war you kill the enemy but you don't kill noncombatants for kicks.

[Sylian]

Celia might be one of the few characters who might actually be Exalted Good. Read the Book of Exalted Deeds. Pacifism is there. Celia was wrong in blaming Haley for Belkar's action, but other than that, what's the problem? If you were in her situation, would you kill the enemy when you could have done something else? Probably not. Celia is right, murder is wrong. A paladin would have fallen for what Belkar did to the gnome.

On another note: Haley has been showing neutral signs. I think she's no longer Good, she has perhaps fallen to neutrality with good tendencies, if that was not were she was before.

[Migodnar]

It's not her fault. I just feel bad for Haley, having to travel with a murderer and a lawyer.

[Indon]

Celia might be one of the few characters who might actually be Exalted Good.
I don't think Celia is exalted - as an extraplanar being, she has a natural tendency to lean towards an alignment strongly in tune with her nature.

And I guess Sylphs were probably listed as an "Always Good" race back in the day.


On another note: Haley has been showing neutral signs. I think she's no longer Good, she has perhaps fallen to neutrality with good tendencies, if that was not were she was before.

I think she could have been CN for the entire course of the comic - if anything, Elan's been softening her up.

[Eita]

Yes. Anyone would hate her in a party. She is a non adventuring NPC with an NPC class.

You think of Shojo had gotten up and adventured with the Order, he'd have the same bang that he did has the ruler of Azure City?

No. They're called NPC classes for a reason.

Celia is actually a sorcerer. One who never took any necromancy spells.

And, yeah, Haley is Neutral. She's a freaking thief.

[David Argall]

Celia is actually a sorcerer. One who never took any necromancy spells.

Technically, Celia is [probably] not a sorcerer. She merely casts spells as tho a sorcerer of a certain level. [which is much too long to say every time, so you just call her a sorcerer and be lazy about it.]


And, yeah, Haley is Neutral. She's a freaking thief.

CG has been traditionally an acceptable alignment for thief. The logic is subject to a good deal of challenge, but this is where we routinely put Robin Hood.

[brilliantlight]

Celia might be one of the few characters who might actually be Exalted Good. Read the Book of Exalted Deeds. Pacifism is there. Celia was wrong in blaming Haley for Belkar's action, but other than that, what's the problem? If you were in her situation, would you kill the enemy when you could have done something else?

Depends on the enemy and the situation. If it was an enemy combatant in the middle of a war I damn well would hope so.

[Halvormerlinaky]

Depends on what type of lawyer you are. No doubt Greenpeace Lawyers are concerned for puppies.

It’s been suggested in many of the other threads that Celia’s behavior is akin to that of a liberal college student. Her attitudes and actions all reflect playing her alignment without any real world experience to temper her strict LG viewpoint.

I think that hypothesis makes a lot sense.

Exactly. She's that annoying, wide-eyed freshperson who says, "They're not evil for eating their children. It was brought upon them by years of suffering at the hands of the tyrant." All this while readily accessible food is at hand, free of charge. One really can't but stare, blank-faced, at their naivety.

I'm pretty sure Celia would be easily take Miko's case in a court of law. They're both born from the same mold.

[Iuris]

I really like Celia, but I do feel she has been taken a bit too far in the last few comics.

However, I'd ask you this:
How would you have reacted to Belkar's most recent? A kind, friendly person meets you on the road, means you no harm, and then your travellign mate KILLS that person for no reason at all but to steal his donkey. Wouldn't you find this extremely shocking? Wouldn't you want to be as far as possible from that person as quickly as possible? Wouldn't you think that person should be punished?

I mean, imagine you're on a voyage in a tourist group, and suddenly a group member kills a bypasser just to take his car? Is that not something you'd react to quite intensely?

The problem is, Haley realizes she needs Belkar and knows she can't really do anything about it.

But the chocolate thing did feel taken too far...

[Sylian]

Indon, well, she seems to have Vow of Non-violence at least. Perhaps. Well, she might have. It's possible that she's just a good person, probably the most good this comic has seen.

brilliantlight, Celia isn't at war with the hobgoblins. Besides, there were alternate ways.

Iuris, what's wrong with the chocolate thing? Why let animals die in wain, isn't that... Evil in the world of D&D? Although I would argue that if Haley didn't realise that animals might die from it, then it wasn't an evil act. However, Celia did a good act. Can you blame her for being good?

[Spiky]

Well, I'M getting annoyed by Celia. She's now acting like my wife on her annoying, "let's ignore reality and save the puppies" days.

I swear to god G seems to have a scry into my house if Roy acts like me (sarcastic bastard) and Celia like my wife (clueless do-gooder). Next they're going to have a dog that pees in the basement. That's probably Belkar.

[brilliantlight]

Indon, well, she seems to have Vow of Non-violence at least. Perhaps. Well, she might have. It's possible that she's just a good person, probably the most good this comic has seen.

brilliantlight, Celia isn't at war with the hobgoblins. Besides, there were alternate ways.

Iuris, what's wrong with the chocolate thing? Why let animals die in wain, isn't that... Evil in the world of D&D? Although I would argue that if Haley didn't realise that animals might die from it, then it wasn't an evil act. However, Celia did a good act. Can you blame her for being good?

Celia might not be but Haley and Belker sure are.

[brilliantlight]

I really like Celia, but I do feel she has been taken a bit too far in the last few comics.

However, I'd ask you this:
How would you have reacted to Belkar's most recent? A kind, friendly person meets you on the road, means you no harm, and then your travellign mate KILLS that person for no reason at all but to steal his donkey. Wouldn't you find this extremely shocking? Wouldn't you want to be as far as possible from that person as quickly as possible? Wouldn't you think that person should be punished?

I mean, imagine you're on a voyage in a tourist group, and suddenly a group member kills a bypasser just to take his car? Is that not something you'd react to quite intensely?

The problem is, Haley realizes she needs Belkar and knows she can't really do anything about it.

But the chocolate thing did feel taken too far...

The gnome was shocking but the hobgoblin was not. He is an enemy combatant of the dictatorial state.

[Eita]

Technically, Celia is [probably] not a sorcerer. She merely casts spells as tho a sorcerer of a certain level. [which is much too long to say every time, so you just call her a sorcerer and be lazy about it.]

Read panel 7. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html)

[David Argall]

Read panel 7. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html)

And Read panel 7 of 530, as well as MM2. She can cast like a sorcerer of whatever level, but she is not one [unless she has taken a level of sorcerer or such]. The panel you note is simply Celia using 1 word instead of the dozen that might have been technically more accurate.

But Celia is about a 6th level monster [5th by official stats, but her stats may well have been improved, and it doesn't change the argument] with Haley and Belkar being well into double figures. She has to help, but she doesn't even raise the EL. It would be harsh of the others to deem her worthless, but she likely will not pull her weight.

[Paladin29]

And here begins another nonsense discussion...

[David Argall]

We have another kind?

[turkishproverb]

Depends on the manner of company, David.



And Celia's a little annoying, but in a way that makes her enjoyable.

[Paladin29]

Yes, for me at least...

[ChaoticEvilGuy]

Fans
Against
Non-
Chaotic
Lawfuls
United?

heh... thts good:smallamused: