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TGWG
2008-03-18, 06:17 PM
I'm having trouble understanding the rules for improved trip. The text is realy ambiguios. can someone explain to me what it does and how it can be used (especialy the second part of the text)

Frosty
2008-03-18, 06:26 PM
it's simple. If you trip them, you get to whack them once for free, at whatever attack bonus you happen to have at the time.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 06:27 PM
It does exactly what it says.

"You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed." Usually, you make trip attempts unarmed (specific weapons let you use them to make armed trip attempts). This provokes an attack of opportunity. With Improved Trip, you don't provoke an attack of opportunity when you try to trip someone.

"You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent." Obvious.

"If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt." When you succeed at tripping someone, you get a free melee attack against them. An easier way to think of this is that the trip attempt is free if it succeeds; the attack you made it with is not "used up." If you're using attacks from a full attack to trip, the bonus of this attack depends on which attack you made the trip with. If your BAB is +11/+6/+1, and you make three trip attempts, each successful, the first free attack is at the +11 BAB, the second at the +6, and the third at the +1.

If this isn't clear enough, specify what part is confusing and I'll try to clarify it more.

Smiley_
2008-03-18, 06:28 PM
This essentially makes it so your opponent does not get a free swing at you when you do try to trip him. You also get a +4 trip bonus and a free swing when he falls prone.

If you fail to trip him, he still gets the trip attempt to you.

Edit: Ooh, double ninja'd

RandomLunatic
2008-03-18, 06:36 PM
Well, it might help to be looking at the Trip rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) while you read this.




You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.

Not so difficult. You do not the provoke the AoO as normal, and, if the touch attack suceeds, you get +4 on your ensuing Strength check.



If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

Also not too difficult. If you trip somebody while in Melee, you basically get your attack back, which you can use to thrash the guy while he is lying on the ground. This part is a bit clearer in the PHB.


Normal
Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.

Special
At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites.

A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats.

This should not require much explanation.

Surgoshan
2008-03-19, 12:10 AM
Now, I'm not a 3e expert, but I keep hearing that the best way to understand Improved Trip is to buy a box of Ritz (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/RitzCrackers.jpg/800px-RitzCrackers.jpg) and a can of easy cheese (http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5591/easycheeseas0.jpg). Smear the latter on the former and you've got Improved Trip.

Right?

Dragonmuncher
2008-03-19, 12:37 AM
...what?



(I hate the character minimum for these forums, btw)

Ascension
2008-03-19, 12:40 AM
Now, I'm not a 3e expert, but I keep hearing that the best way to understand Improved Trip is to buy a box of Ritz (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/RitzCrackers.jpg/800px-RitzCrackers.jpg) and a can of easy cheese (http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5591/easycheeseas0.jpg). Smear the latter on the former and you've got Improved Trip.

Right?

If your entire build is an enlarged, spiked-chain wielding, improved tripping lockdown build, then I guess it can get a little cheesy. Still, fighters can use all the help they can get, and improved trip by itself isn't really cheese at all.

Keld Denar
2008-03-19, 11:17 AM
Improved Trip (and tripping in general) is actually very mechanically weak. Unless you completely optimize to trip and spend most of your resources (feats and gold) to do it well, the d20 is always gonna hang heavy over your fate. One set of bad/good rolls and you've just wasted an attack. Two sets of bad/good rolls and you've just lost your full attack sequence unless you have Quickdraw and a couple backup weapons. Its an OK option do use on your final iterative, since its a touch attack, but the threat of a low roll is still there. Even optimized, its easy for monsters to aquire bonuses to avoid being tripped. Multiple legs, stability, size, strength bonuses from size and HD, magic, and a few other factors all play into the equation against you. All you have ususally is the +4 from the feat, your +str, and maybe a single size bonus from Enlarge Person or other enlarging factor. By the time you can aquire enough bonuses to stand a fighting chance to trip something thats CR appropriately sized, you'd probably be better off just Power Attacking it and killing it, rather than fooling around with tripping.

Just my thoughts and experiences with trip. My level 15 fighter mutt tripped stuff all the time until about level 6, after which he was always fighting an uphill battle to keep up his bonus to compete. A slight shift in focus around that time changed his focus from tripping to beating stuff down, and now he kills stuff faster, and more reliably, and dead stuff automatically falls prone. :smallbiggrin:

Telok
2008-03-19, 09:51 PM
Tripping is pretty darned good up to about level 10. It's also a surprisingly good option for gishes and gish-likes at times.

When I introduced the Expanded Psionics Handbook to my GM he had some reservations about psionics. So one of the things I did (after loaning him the book for a couple weeks and pointing him to the online SRD) was make a dwarf psion with one level of fighter. By taking fighter as the third character level, picking up Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, and using a guisarme the dwarf could make a very meaningful contribution to combat without using his powers.

Trip is a touch attack usable with several reach weapons, usable on attacks of opportunity, and gishes/casters are not crippled by dropping their weapons. The variance of the d20 roll can also help these characters as long as they don't expect to trip everything they attack. With a little luck the caster may be able to trip something the fighter wouldn't bother trying to.

Still, after about 10th level it starts getting less and less useful unless the character is completely optimized for strength checks. But that happens with many of the combat tactics that don't involve just doing massive damage.