Is Redcloak the goblin version of Miko? (SoD spoilers)

[King of Nowhere]

***here are hinted events from Start of Darkness; if you didn't read it, *** ***go in this thread at your own peril ***


I was thinking that Miko and Redcloak have many things in common that I found intersting:
- they both are fanatic religious
- they both have strong prejudices
- They are extremely racist (Ok, for Miko we haven't direct evidence, but she is totally judgmental, even if she isn't strictly racist (but I really think she is), it doesn't change that much)
- they think they are charged of a divine mission (smiting evil for Miko, the Plan for Rc), and are willing to follow this mission at every cost
- they wouldn't hesitate sacrificing their lives for their respective missions
- they have a good goal but did many evil to achieve it
- they stick to their alignment, but they totally fail that alignment's goals (Miko because she is a LG that oppress other people and make them suffer, and Redcloak because he's an evil character who seeks an altruistic goal at the cost of great personal sacrifices, for no personal gain)
- they were emotionally scarred in their younghood (Miko because her parents died (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)and she was raised in a monastery under a very strict discipline, and Redcloack because paladins destroied his village and exterminated his family)
- they would have probably turned out good (in the real sense of the word) if it wasn't for that
- they don't really know what being good or evil is about
- they are not willing to take responsability for their actions (Redcloak because he's weak and just carry on the Plan, and Miko because she is absolutely sure she is right to ignore every evidence); in this case redcloak has made significant effort to overcome this flaw
- they are both overreacting to an injustice (how goblins are treated in the case of Redcloak, and the presence of evil in the world for Miko)
- for both of them, I'm glad I'm not the Burocratic Deva called to judge them

So, I think if Miko was born with green skin she would have been much like Redcloak, while if redcloak was a human he would be like Miko.

Any toughts?

[theinsulabot]

well, i never read origin or SoD, (more because it isn't on the shelf at the borders and im to lazy to order a copy) there have been enough incidental spoilers around i have a pretty good idea what happens, and you mention RC's goal is completely altruistic. i disagree. vengeance, is not innately good, hell its only distantly related to justice. even if the results of vengeance may inadvertently be a huge boon to the goblin people, and RC may want that as well, if the first and primary reason for his Master Plan, then it isn't selfless at all

[Nerdanel]

Redcloak and Miko are both religious and very Lawful but they still have important differences. Probably the biggest one is how for Miko direct violence is the answer to everything while Redcloak is a subtle planner. Also, Miko is unable to compromise, while Redcloak's whole life is a compromise of his ideals. Redcloak was capable of changing his mind about the hobgoblin issue while Miko did not allow inconvenient facts challenge her preconceptions.

[King of Nowhere]

you mention RC's goal is completely altruistic. i disagree. vengeance, is not innately good
Redcloak's goal is not vengeance, it's making goblins an equal race because now they serve as cannon fodders for adventurers. Redcloak wants to achieve this, and I call it an altruistic goal because he is high level enough to defend himself. He also seek vengeance on the humans, especially paladins, but I think this is a minor part of his motivations. For what concern the Dark One true goal, we're not sure about it, but Redcloak motivations are mainly altruistic.


they still have important differences
I never tryed to deny that. Is just that... I feel their similarities should be meaningful in some way, but I can't figure how...

[David Argall]

I was thinking that Miko and Redcloak have many things in common that I found intersting:
- They are extremely racist (Ok, for Miko we haven't direct evidence, but she is totally judgmental, even if she isn't strictly racist (but I really think she is), it doesn't change that much)
As Redcloak points out, he is a speciesist, not a racist. He hates humans of different races equally.
Miko is almost certainly not racist. She is a hater of evil, and that only incidentally makes most humanoids her targets. Note that she was quite willing to attack the human Roy, but to give full credit to the dwarf.



- they have a good goal but did many evil to achieve it
Calling Redcloak's goal good requires accepting several distinctly suspect positions.



- they stick to their alignment, but they totally fail that alignment's goals (Miko because she is a LG that oppress other people and make them suffer,
Where do we have evidence of that?



and Redcloak because he's an evil character who seeks an altruistic goal at the cost of great personal sacrifices, for no personal gain)
Redcloak presumably would be ruler of the improved humanoid domains, so he is expecting personal gain, and this assumes that somehow SoD is the hidden truth instead of the delusions of the evil trying to excuse that state.



- they were emotionally scarred in their younghood (Miko because her parents died (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)and she was raised in a monastery under a very strict discipline,
We know that large number emerge from such not emotionally scarred. The idea she is is just a theory.



Redcloack because paladins destroied his village and exterminated his family)
This happened when he was considered an adult.



- they would have probably turned out good (in the real sense of the word) if it wasn't for that
Miko was LG, or she would not have been a paladin in the first place.
The priest of an evil god, and member of an evil race, is most unlikely to have been good.



- they don't really know what being good or evil is about
Extremely unlikely. They have devoted their lives to the subject.



- they are both overreacting to an injustice (how goblins are treated in the case of Redcloak, and the presence of evil in the world for Miko)
When you have to get so general as to say "the presence of evil", you can see you are reaching.



So, I think if Miko was born with green skin she would have been much like Redcloak, while if redcloak was a human he would be like Miko.
Miko has shown little interest in being a cleric. And we have little evidence that Redcloak had any other goals. A human Redcloak would likely have been a cleric, possibly hating humanoids for some raid that killed his kin. A humanoid Miko might have been a monk or a front line fighter type. So no, this seem a clear difference.