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sikyon
2008-03-18, 10:34 PM
Hear me out before you reply.

You make a magic item. You lose XP. You then go out and kill more monsters for more XP, getting more gold in the process.

You are actually MORE WBL by crafting magic items, making appropriate CR encounters easier.

If you, however, gained XP, then you would advance in level with less gold (as you never got any extra gold to go with that XP), thereby making you have less WBL and making you weaker against appropriate CR encounters.

Of course, this is a theoretical excersize, and a DM should adjust for WBL. But it seems counter-intuitive to the idea that Crafting Items is supposed to make you weaker, because really... it doesn't.

Ponce
2008-03-18, 10:43 PM
It works, assuming you have infinite downtime. I think many DMs are stringent with downtime for exactly this reason, or at least, for some reason along these lines. Keep in mind that it takes considerable time to craft items.

Of course, many DMs I know will scale up the encounters anyway, burnt XP or not. Assuming your campaign has any semblance of plot and isn't simply a sandbox, this method is often impractical. Many things might require you to level up sooner rather than later.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-18, 10:59 PM
Of course, this is a theoretical excersize, and a DM should adjust for WBL. But it seems counter-intuitive to the idea that Crafting Items is supposed to make you weaker, because really... it doesn't.

IMO the real reason for the experience cost is to prevent crafting abuse in game. Same reason Limited Wish and Wish have experience point costs.

tyckspoon
2008-03-18, 11:17 PM
Of course, this is a theoretical excersize, and a DM should adjust for WBL. But it seems counter-intuitive to the idea that Crafting Items is supposed to make you weaker, because really... it doesn't.

I'm pretty sure that's because crafting stuff isn't supposed to make you weaker. In the ideal case (from an optimizing viewpoint) you come out ahead by having a lot more wealth and being at most one level behind, which you will catch up on slightly quicker than the rest of your party advances due to the way D&D calculates XPs. I think it most normal cases it turns out more of an even trade. In the worst case, you do become weaker, but not thanks to any inherent goal of the crafting system; you get weaker by crafting because you made an item that is largely worthless or heavily overpriced, so you traded off more XP than you gained in real value.

sikyon
2008-03-18, 11:54 PM
IMO the real reason for the experience cost is to prevent crafting abuse in game. Same reason Limited Wish and Wish have experience point costs.

Crafting abuse? That's the exact opposite, in fact, of what I'm tryin gto suggest here. I'm suggesting that XP costs don't stop crafting abuse at all.


I'm pretty sure that's because crafting stuff isn't supposed to make you weaker. In the ideal case (from an optimizing viewpoint) you come out ahead by having a lot more wealth and being at most one level behind, which you will catch up on slightly quicker than the rest of your party advances due to the way D&D calculates XPs. I think it most normal cases it turns out more of an even trade. In the worst case, you do become weaker, but not thanks to any inherent goal of the crafting system; you get weaker by crafting because you made an item that is largely worthless or heavily overpriced, so you traded off more XP than you gained in real value.

What if the whole party takes the downtime? Also, how can you trade off more XP than you gain in real value?


Trading off XP for gold is a good thing in terms of WBL.

tyckspoon
2008-03-19, 12:00 AM
What if the whole party takes the downtime? Also, how can you trade off more XP than you gain in real value?


Trading off XP for gold is a good thing in terms of WBL.

Make a Ring of Regeneration. A bad buy doesn't get any better just because you're paying part of it with XP.

sikyon
2008-03-19, 12:16 AM
Make a Ring of Regeneration. A bad buy doesn't get any better just because you're paying part of it with XP.

But all buys are essentially free!

My reasoning works like this:

You craft an item, losing XP but gaining the item.

You then go out and kill to get the XP back.

This murder gets you the associated gold with the XP

You are now at the same XP as you were before, and have the same cash on hand, but you have that extra item.

By the CR system, the monsters you are fighting are not any more difficult.

Thus, Profit!

tyckspoon
2008-03-19, 12:20 AM
Sorry, I don't understand this post.

My reasoning works like this:

You craft an item, losing XP but gaining the item.

You then go out and kill to get the XP back.

This murder gets you the associated gold with the XP

You are now at the same XP as you were before, and have the same cash on hand, but you have that extra item.

By the CR system, the monsters you are fighting are not any more difficult.

Thus, Profit!

At the 'craft an item' step, insert a qualifier that says 'craft an item that provides no useful benefit.' You have now spent XP and cash to no end- in other words, you are weaker for having crafted the item. Once you make that XP and cash back by fighting something, you're only back where you started.

For a more tangible example, compare the benefits of making a ring of Freedom of Movement (or 2!) to making a ring of Regeneration. Freedom of Movement is a powerful and widely useful effect. The Ring of Regeneration.. is not.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-19, 12:23 AM
Crafting abuse? That's the exact opposite, in fact, of what I'm tryin gto suggest here. I'm suggesting that XP costs don't stop crafting abuse at all.



The crafting cost moderates it quite a bit. With no experience point cost there would be more crafting in game since a PC would basically be able to double their magical wealth with a few crafting feats and do significant improvements with just Craft Wondrous Item.

sikyon
2008-03-19, 12:57 AM
At the 'craft an item' step, insert a qualifier that says 'craft an item that provides no useful benefit.' You have now spent XP and cash to no end- in other words, you are weaker for having crafted the item. Once you make that XP and cash back by fighting something, you're only back where you started.

You'll be back where you started, but you'll have that extra item. That's a bonus no matter how you cut it. You can sell it and get gold for what anyone cares.


The crafting cost moderates it quite a bit. With no experience point cost there would be more crafting in game since a PC would basically be able to double their magical wealth with a few crafting feats and do significant improvements with just Craft Wondrous Item.

And if they got an XP bonus for crafting, it might pan out even.

Consider: A level 10 PC halfway to level 11 crafts a ring that sets him all the way back to just being at level 10 for XP and gold. He then fights his way back up to level 11, getting that whole level's worth of gold again. He's where he would be at level 11, but he's got that extra ring. Since CR scales with level, he's fighting the same monsters but with an extra item.

If he got an XP bonus for crafting, A level 10 PC halfway to level 11 crafts a ring that puts him up to level 11 for XP, but costs him back to level 10 for gold. He now is level 11, has that item, but he never got gold for the second half of level 10. He is much weaker than the above scenario, where under XP penalty rules he would have the item at level 11 and still have all his gold.


So: With XP Penalty: You end up with more Wealth at a certain level
With XP bonus: You end up with less Wealth at a certain level

Seems to me that as crafting increases your wealth, the second scenario should be implemented.

Tallis
2008-03-19, 01:08 AM
As I understand it WBL is a guideline for how much wealth (in gold and equipment) a character should have at a given level. Treasure gained is figured with this as the goal. So the magic item that the character now has would count against his WBL and he should end up with the same total wealth as he would have without the item.

Of course this makes crafting feats very unattractive in any game that allows the purchase of magic items...

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-19, 01:10 AM
And if they got an XP bonus for crafting, it might pan out even.

Consider: A level 10 PC halfway to level 11 crafts a ring that sets him all the way back to just being at level 10 for XP and gold. He then fights his way back up to level 11, getting that whole level's worth of gold again. He's where he would be at level 11, but he's got that extra ring. Since CR scales with level, he's fighting the same monsters but with an extra item.

If he got an XP bonus for crafting, A level 10 PC halfway to level 11 crafts a ring that puts him up to level 11 for XP, but costs him back to level 10 for gold. He now is level 11, has that item, but he never got gold for the second half of level 10. He is much weaker than the above scenario, where under XP penalty rules he would have the item at level 11 and still have all his gold.

No. Your example is Craft Ring at level 10 when the feat requires a CL12 so most games wouldn't allow it.

Suggested wealth by level is 49,000 gp at L10 and 66,000 gp at L11 according to the DMG.

Advancing from L10 to L11 is +10,000 experience points 45 K to 55K.

The experience cost is 4% of the market price of the item (basically a factor 25 divisor).

Using your example the PC just got a Ring worth 125,000 to 225,000 gp and had the gold to do it exceding suggested wealth by level.

Imagine how this would be abused without an experience point cost.

P.S. when a PC takes a crafting feat the PC isn't supposed to be penalized he is still supposed to get the same wealth as the other PCs the feat will just earn him more magical gear.

Just taking Craft Wondrous item should net the PC +135% to +160% standard campaign wealth at 4,000 experience points per 100,000 gp market in magical items. (Theoretically it could double his standard magical wealth if the PC limited himself to Craft Wondrous and traded market value items for market value items with the other party members).

The reason I use crafting feats in game is the PC gets better control of the magical items for both himself and the party. Secondly it is rare to level perfectly in most games so the experience point cost rarely becomes an issue other a PC might lag party members by a level for an adveture or two in games where it takes more than one adventure to level.

Additionally the extra magical gear actually raises the PC's effectivenes (CR) just like it would for a NPC or creature encounter although I have never seen a DM apply the mechanic. ECS 5 Nations Prince Jurian is a good example his CR is higher than normal because he has more magical gear and elite ability scores in the Hook section.

Khanderas
2008-03-19, 02:29 AM
Hear me out before you reply.

You make a magic item. You lose XP. You then go out and kill more monsters for more XP, getting more gold in the process.

You are actually MORE WBL by crafting magic items, making appropriate CR encounters easier.

If you, however, gained XP, then you would advance in level with less gold (as you never got any extra gold to go with that XP), thereby making you have less WBL and making you weaker against appropriate CR encounters.

Of course, this is a theoretical excersize, and a DM should adjust for WBL. But it seems counter-intuitive to the idea that Crafting Items is supposed to make you weaker, because really... it doesn't.
However, greater CR encounters carry greater amounts of loot.
And if you craft yourself and group memebers some wicked gear, gear that is greater then your WBL, you will face advanced monsters so they wont be a cakewalk.
Not to mention, greater reputation for riches means increased risk of getting robbed. So you gotta up security...and that costs money.
Limited amount of downtime anyway, for the most part.

Starbuck_II
2008-03-19, 06:12 AM
As I understand it WBL is a guideline for how much wealth (in gold and equipment) a character should have at a given level. Treasure gained is figured with this as the goal. So the magic item that the character now has would count against his WBL and he should end up with the same total wealth as he would have without the item.

Of course this makes crafting feats very unattractive in any game that allows the purchase of magic items...

I disagree. Feats should have benefits.
Thus, personal crafted magic items should count for 1/2 their value for Wealth per level (what you paid for them in gold).

This makes crafting feat attractive in games that allow purchasing as well. So the magic item that the character now has would not count against his WBL and he should end up with the more total wealth (relatively) as he would have without the item.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-19, 06:43 AM
Thus, Profit!

But you still end up behind the other party members in XP.

Or you would, if it weren't for the fact that, being of low ECL, you get more XP for the same challenges, and catch up very soon. In fact, fiddling with this - putting yourself just under what you need for the next level - could theoretically get you ahead of the rest of the party.

The only part of the game where crafting magic items balances out is character creation, where you pay for self-crafted item with gold and XP and end up starting behind the others.

Of course, if the CR system didn't exist and you only got a set amount of XP for every challenge/monster, the above-mentioned problem would disappear. You'd always be missing that XP, compared to the rest of the party.

Rad
2008-03-19, 08:40 AM
In all the games I lplayed, crafted items only counted 1/2 when determining WBL.

The points about a wizard in the void that crafts, then fights and then is exactly where he was do not work in real games. In real games you meet challenges that are on the party's level, and they are all one level higher than you are.
They give you more XP than to the rest of the party though, so you catch up eventually.

In general, the XP that you spend on special abilities are never lost forever as the CR reward system has the low-level members catch up after a while. So the XP you spend are actually a renewable resource that you have to manage carefully since you risk to spend too much of it to be able to recover the loss in a reasonable time.

sikyon
2008-03-19, 08:41 AM
No. Your example is Craft Ring at level 10 when the feat requires a CL12 so most games wouldn't allow it.

Suggested wealth by level is 49,000 gp at L10 and 66,000 gp at L11 according to the DMG.

Advancing from L10 to L11 is +10,000 experience points 45 K to 55K.

The experience cost is 4% of the market price of the item (basically a factor 25 divisor).

Using your example the PC just got a Ring worth 125,000 to 225,000 gp and had the gold to do it exceding suggested wealth by level.

Imagine how this would be abused without an experience point cost.


It was an ILLUSTRATIVE EXAMPLE. Notice how I didn't include any numbers? I couldn't give a rat's bum if he can't take craft ring till level 11. The principle still holds.

Please, enlighten me on how this would be abused without an XP cost. People would take all their gold and craft the crap out of it, increasing their wealth? That's better than the current scenio of XP cost.

Myabe you need a better example.

We'll go with level 19 character partway to level 20.
He has G gold and E experiance.
He crafts an item, costing X gold and Y experiance.
He then goes and fights a monster, which grants him Y experiance and Z gold.
The character's wealth: G-X+X+(Y*experiance point to gold conversion))+Z = G+Z+(Y*experiance point to gold conversion)
The character's XP: E-Y+Y = E

As you can see, the character is back where he started in terms of XP (which CR of encounters) but has more wealth. This is the current system.

Furthermore, for all those interested, I'm trying to demonstrate how crafting items throws off treasure per encounter and WBL equivilence.


And if you craft yourself and group memebers some wicked gear, gear that is greater then your WBL, you will face advanced monsters so they wont be a cakewalk.

What I'm trying to demonstrate here (i suggested something similar in my OP) is that craft item does not mesh with the CR system, as it changes WBL.

Tyger
2008-03-19, 09:37 AM
Yes it changes WBL, and yes the XP scales appropriately for the lower level characters, but that lower level character (who has used XP for crafting) is ALWAYS (baring Raise Dead, level drains etc. all of which he is equally subject to) going to be behind the rest of the party. Yes, he may level up to their level quickly, but while he is making his slightly faster rise to level 10, they are moving to level 11. He will always level behind them. They will always be a bit ahead.

And any DM that doesn't factor in the party's capability beyond a blind calculation based on level is missing the whole point of being a DM. Of course, that is just my opinion, but I'll bet its shared by most of the DMs on here. There is a big difference between a level 5 party with no magic items, and a level 5 party with +2 magic weapons, armor and wands / potions out the wazoo. If you send CR 5 critters against those two parties, you are going to have widely differing results.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-19, 09:47 AM
Yes, he may level up to their level quickly, but while he is making his slightly faster rise to level 10, they are moving to level 11. He will always level behind them. They will always be a bit ahead.

Not really. By the books, the lower-ECL character gets more XP for the same challenge, and if there's a big enough adventure, that may difference may actually put the lower-ECL character ahead of the others.

For instance...

After an adventure, everyone's sitting at 45,500 XP (ECL 10) - except for you, having used up 1,000 XP on a magic item while still 9th-level, putting you at 44,500 XP (ECL 9). In the next big adventure, the group faces the equivalent of 3 CR 10 challenges per PC and overcomes them; that means 9,000 XP each for the ECL 10s (putting them at 54,500 XP, just short of ECL 11), but 12,150 XP for you at ECL 9 (putting you at 56,650 XP, comfortably into ECL 11).

The CR system is really wonky. It works out okay if you go by the books, with every adventure netting 25 - 33 % of total XP needed to advance to the next level, but that's a pretty fine balance to maintain.

sikyon
2008-03-19, 10:05 AM
And any DM that doesn't factor in the party's capability beyond a blind calculation based on level is missing the whole point of being a DM. Of course, that is just my opinion, but I'll bet its shared by most of the DMs on here. There is a big difference between a level 5 party with no magic items, and a level 5 party with +2 magic weapons, armor and wands / potions out the wazoo. If you send CR 5 critters against those two parties, you are going to have widely differing results.

The problem is that with all that wonky WBL, the DM is going to have to calibrate challenges more, which increases the odds that he'll screw up. Not every DM is perfect.

Therefore, I am suggesting giving XP for crafting magic items. You could tailor the amount of XP given in order to ensure that crafting items actually doesn't put you behind WBL.

If you craft an item and get XP, your going to be behind your WBL. However, crafting increases your wealth. Therefore, if you balance these two factors, then you'll be at your appropriate WBL.

Benejeseret
2008-03-19, 01:05 PM
Here is how I look at it.

Yes, I agree that crafting then leveling back up puts you above otherwise expected WBL. BUT: calculate in the feat. The feat basically grants __% extra WBL. But the cost is a Feat....feats for most classes are really, really, important, make the flavor of your character and adding to its power.

Compare Feat Craft ____, basically an arbitrary WBL increase and then compare that to Natural Spell or Metamagic feats for overall power.

Recap, yes, your WBL is a bit higher but you are out a FEAT.


((Artificers....well, let's hope they are internally balanced to account for the higher WBL as a class as a whole **ducks and covers** ))

sikyon
2008-03-19, 08:21 PM
Here is how I look at it.

Yes, I agree that crafting then leveling back up puts you above otherwise expected WBL. BUT: calculate in the feat. The feat basically grants __% extra WBL. But the cost is a Feat....feats for most classes are really, really, important, make the flavor of your character and adding to its power.

Compare Feat Craft ____, basically an arbitrary WBL increase and then compare that to Natural Spell or Metamagic feats for overall power.

Recap, yes, your WBL is a bit higher but you are out a FEAT.


((Artificers....well, let's hope they are internally balanced to account for the higher WBL as a class as a whole **ducks and covers** ))

Crafting Feats are some of the best feats out there.

Ever look at any of the threads where it goes something like "How does my fighter beat batman?" The anwser is items. Magic items.

Also, this % increase is at the cost of 1 feat. It's not like you're going to lose Natural spell to get a crafting feat. You'll take it in leiu of your weakest feat, one that will probably be better if you replaced it with magic items.

Indon
2008-03-19, 08:46 PM
You are actually MORE WBL by crafting magic items, making appropriate CR encounters easier.

Good if you have an entire party of crafters to decrease your ECL collectively. Not of significant effect, however, if you only have one crafter - you would need to craft yourself down four levels behind your party before you could reduce the CR's you face by 1.

Add in the fact that each progressive level is exponentially better than the last for many classes (particularly spellcasters, the ones who'll be crafting), and the fact that every time you gain a level your crafting XP's become more valuable (You can make more powerful magic items at a higher CL), and crafting doesn't work out all that much like an exploit even if played straight RAW... unless everyone crafts.

sikyon
2008-03-19, 09:08 PM
Good if you have an entire party of crafters to decrease your ECL collectively. Not of significant effect, however, if you only have one crafter - you would need to craft yourself down four levels behind your party before you could reduce the CR's you face by 1.

Add in the fact that each progressive level is exponentially better than the last for many classes (particularly spellcasters, the ones who'll be crafting), and the fact that every time you gain a level your crafting XP's become more valuable (You can make more powerful magic items at a higher CL), and crafting doesn't work out all that much like an exploit even if played straight RAW... unless everyone crafts.

As has been posted above, if you are smart about crafting then you can actually exceed your party in XP.

geek_2049
2008-03-19, 09:34 PM
At lower levels it is ineffective because characters do not have enough capital to engage in crafting items. At high level not enough down time is generally allocated by the DM for crafting to be effective. At midlevel you get a combination of the two, though both are less pronounced.

GoC
2008-03-19, 11:37 PM
The problem with your idea doesn't have to do with the players, it has to do with the fact that there's now no reason an NPC mage can't just spend 8 hours a day (a short working day) making items (they gain money with no penalty to their lifeforce). After a bit under 20 years they will have reached level 40. Yes, that's right. The average item maker will be more powerful than elminster and richer than the god of greed in twenty working years!
Why isn't every single human npc spellcaster over level 20+ with elves at level 100+ and Elans with ECL 200+?

Tallis
2008-03-20, 12:14 AM
I disagree. Feats should have benefits.
Thus, personal crafted magic items should count for 1/2 their value for Wealth per level (what you paid for them in gold).

This makes crafting feat attractive in games that allow purchasing as well. So the magic item that the character now has would not count against his WBL and he should end up with the more total wealth (relatively) as he would have without the item.

I'm not saying the feat shouldn't be beneficial. I'm just explaining how I understand the RAW. In my own games I would run it as you do (not that I'm all that meticulous about keeping track of WBL anyway).

Nebo_
2008-03-20, 12:41 AM
I didn't read anything but the op, so I don't know if anyone has said this already. Do you actually let you group go out XP farming like that? Killing things just for the sake of getting more powerful is very much a metagame concept that should be avoided.

sikyon
2008-03-20, 10:02 AM
I didn't read anything but the op, so I don't know if anyone has said this already. Do you actually let you group go out XP farming like that? Killing things just for the sake of getting more powerful is very much a metagame concept that should be avoided.

Freeform game?

Typically the way I run games is that I build world, and then let the PC's go at it. There's no set plot, ect. The DM is responsible for the setting, the PC's are responsible for the story. This is my perfered way of doing it. If I were just going to railroad the PC's onto a single plot, why wouldn't I just read them a book instead?



At lower levels it is ineffective because characters do not have enough capital to engage in crafting items. At high level not enough down time is generally allocated by the DM for crafting to be effective. At midlevel you get a combination of the two, though both are less pronounced.

I believe there are various ways to get around crafting downtime. Feats, familiars (not sure if that's artificer only), and other such things.



The problem with your idea doesn't have to do with the players, it has to do with the fact that there's now no reason an NPC mage can't just spend 8 hours a day (a short working day) making items (they gain money with no penalty to their lifeforce). After a bit under 20 years they will have reached level 40. Yes, that's right. The average item maker will be more powerful than elminster and richer than the god of greed in twenty working years!
Why isn't every single human npc spellcaster over level 20+ with elves at level 100+ and Elans with ECL 200+?

NPC's shouldn't even be earning XP using the PC XP system. It makes no sense.

GoC
2008-03-20, 12:29 PM
NPC's shouldn't even be earning XP using the PC XP system. It makes no sense.
Even without earning xp it still removes the only limitation on crafting (expending lifeforce). Full casters will become staggeringly powerful with several million gp being plausable even for a 3rd level wizard. Unless you want to outfit every wizard with 2,000,000gp worth of magic items and make every society a magocracy then something needs to be fixed. You'd simply overwhelm the economy unless crafters are very, very, very, rare.

Of course if your players don't notice such obvious inconsistencies then go right ahead.

sikyon
2008-03-20, 12:50 PM
Even without earning xp it still removes the only limitation on crafting (expending lifeforce). Full casters will become staggeringly powerful with several million gp being plausable even for a 3rd level wizard. Unless you want to outfit every wizard with 2,000,000gp worth of magic items and make every society a magocracy then something needs to be fixed. You'd simply overwhelm the economy unless crafters are very, very, very, rare.

Of course if your players don't notice such obvious inconsistencies then go right ahead.

And what's the limitation on crafting stuff like computer chips today? You make it, then sell it. Low level magic becomes common, higher level magic, however, is still exceedingly rare.