PDA

View Full Version : New "Attacks" [updated: 3/21]



Shinton
2008-03-19, 03:37 PM
UPDATED: [3/21]

3/19: Original posting
3/20: added special blocking, tweaked Thrust Kick/Trip/Axe Kick, added "Throw", "Uppercut", and "Roundhouse kick"
3/21: Whirling form [attacks]


Background:
I've actually been thinking about this for a while, although it may be somewhere else (I only have DMG/PH/Libris/Monster). Whenver I picture a monk (yes you can sigh in disgust now, this is a monk topic) it seems to me that they're always attacking a new way. IMO they don't just run up to someone and constantly punch them. So to add a lil "flair" to combat I tried to develop "attacks" used in conjunction with an unarmed monk.

How to do it

Well, each of these attacks takes up one "attack" per round that the monk gets. Suppose a monk has an AB of +5/+3, he can make 2 of these special attacks, unless he chooses to use a full round action one.

Another Example

So we have our monk with the AB of +5/+3 and an unarmed damage of 1d8. On his turn, he chooses to Double Kick the Orc in front of him. So you find double kick in the list and ok, its 2 attacks at one die lower damage. So, for that first "attack" in the round he would roll 2 d20's and add 5, then for each that hit roll 1d6. On his +3 he decides to snap kick (-2 dmg +2 ab). So he rolls d20 and +5 (+3 from "attack" + 2 from Snap Kick)

The Attacks

These only apply to Monks.
Whirling Form: Gained at Monk 1. All of your attacks may target different people within range?
[Need help with this. Useful? Not?]

Double Kick: Make an extra attack but both hits are 1 damage die lower (1d6 --> 2d4). Can only be used once per round.

Axe Kick: Increase damage by 2 dice. (d6-->d10). Add 2x your str mod to damage. This attack provokes an Attack of Opportunity. You are denied your dex bonus to ac until your next turn.

Trip: During a monk's regular attack combonation one or any moves may be changed to a trip attempt instead. Requires Monk 8.

Thrust KickFull round: increase damage done by 1 die (1d6 --> 2d6), character may attempt bull rush at a -4 penalty for lack of movement.
On success the target is moved back 10 feet instead of 5.
Curb Stomp(for lack of a better name >.<): only on a prone target. increase damage done by 1 die (2dice?).

Flying Kick only while charging. -5 ab for an extra die of damage (1d6-->2d6 (3d6?)

Whirlwind Kick: As a full round action, you attack all opponents within reach but at a -2 cumulative penalty for each person you attack. Full ab on the first person, -2 ab on second, -4 ab on third, etc.

Disrupting Strike: If hit, opponent makes reflex save (10+wis mod (str mod?) +1/2 Monk level) or looses dex bonus to AC for 1 round. (allowing sneak attcks?) Thank you sonofzeal, it is stunning strike >.<

Chop Double-Hand Punch: Once per round, as a standard action, increase damage die by 1 and add 1-1/2 str bonus (d6 --> 1d8 + 1-1/2 str). (Any further way to balance? Tired of removing attack bonus. Maybe ac, as your no longer defeding with an arm?)

Snap Kick: Minimum of -2 dmg for +2 ab. May not be used in conjunction with Power Attack/Imp Power Attack.

Headbutt Still Working, would love to see suggestions!

Throw: Resolve as a Trip attack with a +4 modifier, except you may choose to use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength. If you succeed, the target lands prone in an empty square of your choosing up to 10 feet away. You may throw enemies through occupied squares, but thrown enemies never provoke Attacks of Opportunity for this movement.

Upper Cut: -4 ab +1 die increase (1d6 --> 1d8) but, if you crit with upper cut, target must make a fort save (10 + str mod? + 1/2 monk lvl) or fall unconcious.

Roundhouse Kick: This cannot be the first attack in your combination. This attack can only be used once per encounter (enemy?). You must target an opponent other than the target of your other attacks thus far. Make a bluff check against your targets AC. If successful you hit and may make a normal attack (+die of damge (1d6-->1d8).


Ex: our monk is surrounded flanked by a rogue and a fighter. He attacks the fighter with his first attack, double kick. Then uses round kick on the rogue. He makes a check against the rogues ac (in this case we'll say 16). He succedes and makes a normal attack on the rogue. He couldn't have attacked the fighter with roundhouse kick.


Other Thoughts

Also around level 5 or so, I was thinking about Combinations. For example Our Monk now combines Double kick and Snap kick so, when he uses snap kick after double kick, snap kick gains a +2 to AB and Damage. (This only applies if he hits?)

At level 10 I thought that he could now add another attack to his combonation. He decides to add Chop (which is 1 die higher (1d6-->1d8+1-1/2 str). This gains a +4(+2?) bonus to attack and damage. (only if 1st hits ( and second hit?)) (He may also begin a new combonation at this level.)

At level 15, he masters one of his combinations and may add a fourth attack which gains the same bonuses as described above. ( He may add a third attack to his second combonation and start another combonation at this level)

Last thing
I kinda stole this from the Last Airbender thread, but I want to incorporate blocking. Heres what I was thinking

You can only block a number of times equal to the number of times you can attack in a round. (if your AB is +5/+3 you can attack twice)

By "saving" extra attacks you may block that many times. (attacked at +5, saved +3: I can block 1 attack

You can't save a higher attack and use a lower. (Save +5 attack, attack at +3)

When you want to block make an opposed attack roll with the AB of the "saved" attack. If your roll is higher, it counts as a miss. If yours is lower, your hit.

How would you make blocks more fun?!

Lock Block: On a successful block, you may immediatly attempt to grapple check. You do not provoke an Attack of Opportunity when using this skill. You must attempt to grapple the person you blocked.

Wrist Strike Block: On a successful block you may attempt to disarm your opponent. You do not provoke an Attack of Opportunity when using this skill. You must attempt to disarm the person you blocked. On a successful disarm you end up with the weapon in your hand.

Counter Attack: (This might need tweaking) On a successful blcok, you may attempt a free attack (allow for special attacks?) at your highest attack bonus. You must counter attack the person you blocked.

Not blocking really but still important.
Choke Hold: One round after you PIN an opponent, he must make a fort save (10+str mod+1/2 Monk lvl?) or fall unconcious for 1d4 rounds. (Might be a bit too powerful?) (Have to put size differences in here... you can't really choke hold a dragon...)



What I think

I'm kind of worrying that this might over power the monk.
Also, this should probably be applicable to any who take improved unarmed?
I'd like to incorporate weapon size into blocking.
I NEED MORE ATTACKS
Best way to get the attacks? --> Bonus feat, like fighter bonus feats?



Also, please remember that I only have access to DMG/PH/LM/MM 3.5.


~Shinton~

Bitzeralisis
2008-03-19, 07:55 PM
Background:... IMO they don't just run up to someone and constantly punch them. ...

That's the only way I know how to beat Mortal Combat. :smallwink: :smalltongue: Anyways, the whole "attack types" think seems cool in real life, but for gaming purposes, it just takes up too much time.

sonofzeal
2008-03-19, 08:45 PM
Looks nice! If you put them in a pretty little table, print them out, and have them beside you as you play, that should resolve the complexity issue. As for the actual abilities...

Trip - making a trip attack as part of a larger attack action is a nice idea, but I'd put a certain level limit on it (ie "you must be Monk 8 or higher to use this"), as a way of keeping it out of the hands of dippers, and for rewarding people who stick with Monk. A lot of them could benefit from this, actually, and it might be worthwhile making them options as you level up (ie "At each monk level, you can select one more Special Attack Options").

Thrust Kick - you'd resolve this as a Bull Rush, wouldn't you? I'd either put a -4 penalty since you're not moving, or make it another "higher level" option, but that's debatable.

Whirlwind Kick - Full Round Action sounds good.

Disrupting Strike - Seems like a slightly weaker version of Stunning Fist that uses Ref instead of Fort but isn't limited by times-per-day. To be honest, I'm not sure what the justification is.

Chop - I'd reflavour this as "Double-hand Punch", and make it a Standard Action to use. Otherwise it seems rather overpowered since it lacks no balancing element like the others and people will be throwing it in to every attack combo they make.

Snap Kick - Awesome, a much-needed addition. However, someone could trade -2 dam for +2 atk, then Power Attack with a two-handed weapon (and my own "Double-hand Punch" is a prime offender here) for -2 atk and +4 dam, netting 2 damage for no penalty.



As for blocks.... that works, as long as it's opposed attack rolls (ie you can roll an attack roll, and if it's better than your AC you use that to defend instead).

And I do think this should all be monk-only. The Unarmed Swordsage is powerful enough already.

Shinton
2008-03-19, 09:05 PM
That's the only way I know how to beat Mortal Combat

Your not alone there :P

Also, your right, this probably would take a bit of time... Specially at higher levels.. 5+ attacks per round.


Trip - making a trip attack as part of a larger attack action is a nice idea, but I'd put a certain level limit on it (ie "you must be Monk 8 or higher to use this"), as a way of keeping it out of the hands of dippers, and for rewarding people who stick with Monk. A lot of them could benefit from this, actually, and it might be worthwhile making them options as you level up (ie "At each monk level, you can select one more Special Attack Options").

so basically add this as a special ability for another attack?
(snap kick + trip?)
And the req is a good idea too.



Snap Kick - Awesome, a much-needed addition. However, someone could trade -2 dam for +2 atk, then Power Attack with a two-handed weapon (and my own "Double-hand Punch" is a prime offender here) for -2 atk and +4 dam, netting 2 damage for no penalty.


Agree here.


Chop - I'd reflavour this as "Double-hand Punch", and make it a Standard Action to use. Otherwise it seems rather overpowered since it lacks no balancing element like the others and people will be throwing it in to every attack combo they make.


Your right, no balancing.. hm.. Standard action seems like an idea. Double-Hand Punch sounds better too


Disrupting Strike - Seems like a slightly weaker version of Stunning Fist that uses Ref instead of Fort but isn't limited by times-per-day. To be honest, I'm not sure what the justification is.


True true... Heh didn't think of that.


Thrust Kick - you'd resolve this as a Bull Rush, wouldn't you? I'd either put a -4 penalty since you're not moving, or make it another "higher level" option, but that's debatable

And your right that is a Bull rush. -4 sounds fair. Though I was really hoping to use this as a lead in for something. Good that fixes my check issues as well.

sonofzeal
2008-03-19, 10:58 PM
Glad you approve of my suggestions! It's certainly a worthy idea, and would make Monks much more fun to play even if they aren't mechanically that much stronger. It will also make them much more distinctive over other unarmed strike builds. I look forward to seeing a completed form that I can use in my own games!


so basically add this as a special ability for another attack?
(snap kick + trip?)
I was thinking that, as part of any attack routine, one or more attacks could be replaced by a Trip attack. For example...

Our 11th lvl Medium Monk with Str 18 and no special mods is standing next to somebody, and Flurries. His normal Flurry is +12/+12/+12/+7 (1d10+4). He declares that his combo for the round is Trip - Curb Stomp - Double Kick - Snap Kick 3. If his Trip succeeds, he gets his Curb Stomp for extra damage; otherwise Curb Stomp is wasted. Either way, he gets his Double Kick for +10 (1d8+4) twice, and his Snap Kick for +10(1d10+1).

......yeah, even if the Frenzied Berzerker does ten times his damage, he wouldn't live up to that level of coolness. :smallwink:



In making that though, I realized that there's actually very few in there that fit as regular parts of an attack routine. A few more punches or elbows would be nice, as well as one designed for use inside a grapple. If you decide to make them unlock at higher Monk levels, there's no reason not to have some that are soundly superior to regular attacks, which opens up whole new vistas of martial pwnage. :smallcool:

Oh, but I think providing a free charge on Thrust Kick is a bad idea - there's too many nasty things that can be done on charges already, and it effectively gives the guy extra actions in a turn. Make it just a regular special attack, maybe? You'd have to watch the bonus damage relative to the level it gets unlocked, but it'd be a good end to a combo that way.

By the way, this is at least somewhat similar to Tome of Battle material. You should try to get your hands on it - most of its stuff is standard-action, once-per-encounter abilities rather than elements in a combo, but is quite similar in basic concept. Yours still definitely fills a niche, and is perfect for the Monk class, but it would be interesting to compare the two at the end.

Shinton
2008-03-20, 08:49 AM
as well as one designed for use inside a grapple

Done.

Headbutt Was thinking dmg die decrease really... Its kinda hard to "swing" your head. But its debatable. Also, bashing your head against someone isn't smart. So if there is a damage increase maybe at like 5%/10% chance of dazing for a round?


And also, make blocking a bit more fun.


Lock Block: On a successful block, you may immediatly attempt to grapple check (using imp grapple, even if you don't have it?). You must attempt to grapple the person you blocked.

Improved Block: Disarm(no fun name >.>): On a successful block you may attempt to disarm your opponent. You must attempt to disarm the person you blocked.

Counter Attack: (This might need tweaking) On a successful blcok, you may attempt a free attack (allow for special attacks?) at your highest attack bonus. You must counter attack the person you blocked.

Not blocking really but still important.
Choke Hold: One round after you PIN an opponent, he must make a fort save (10+str mod+1/2 Monk lvl?) or fall unconcious for 1d4 rounds. (Might be a bit too powerful?) (Have to put size differences in here... you can't really choke hold a dragon...)

sonofzeal
2008-03-20, 11:09 AM
Headbutt Was thinking dmg die decrease really... Its kinda hard to "swing" your head. But its debatable. Also, bashing your head against someone isn't smart. So if there is a damage increase maybe at like 5%/10% chance of dazing for a round?
Headbutt sounds like a good one. I'd make it a relatively high-level one, reflecting how difficult it is to do properly. Still, if it's done well there's little to no risk to the butter. You could put a limit on it though, maybe - cannot be used against creatures with more than NA +5, or somesuch. Also think about whether you want it to be usable outside of grapples.



Lock Block: On a successful block, you may immediately attempt to grapple check (using imp grapple, even if you don't have it?). You must attempt to grapple the person you blocked.
Rather than say "improved grapple", I'd just add "this doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity", and possibly "you get a +4 on this check".


Improved Block: Disarm(no fun name >.>): On a successful block you may attempt to disarm your opponent. You must attempt to disarm the person you blocked.
"Wrist Strike Block" maybe? Again, "do not provoke" is probably a good idea here.


Counter Attack: (This might need tweaking) On a successful block, you may attempt a free attack (allow for special attacks?) at your highest attack bonus. You must counter attack the person you blocked.
Would this could as an Attack of Opportunity or not? Either way's fine, just as long as you specify. "Not" is probably slightly more powerful, but there's some useful stuff you can do on AoO's too so either's fine. Might want to change the name to "Counter Block" so that it's obvious from browsing that it's a block.


Choke Hold: One round after you PIN an opponent, he must make a fort save (10+str mod+1/2 Monk lvl?) or fall unconcious for 1d4 rounds. (Might be a bit too powerful?) (Have to put size differences in here... you can't really choke hold a dragon...)
I believe you can't grapple things more than two size categories larger than you anyway, so that's okay. DC looks high, but good.



Here's a suggestion of my own, borrowed shamelessly from Tome of Battle:

Throw: Resolve as a Trip attack with a +4 modifier, except you may choose to use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength. If you succeed, the target lands prone in an empty square of your choosing up to 10 feet away. You may throw enemies through occupied squares, but thrown enemies never provoke Attacks of Opportunity for this movement.

Shinton
2008-03-20, 11:33 AM
Hm... i was looking at grapple today and it says monks can do full damage with their unarmed strike ina grapple... so headbutts kind of useless... less it gets a damage increase.

Throw, wow that looks fun.
Could I use this as an attack at the end? Like Snap Kick/Axe Kick/Throw?
Also, how bout damaging other people with your throwing victim?
Spiked armor + throw = ouch?

Also, what about thrown into a wall?
Dmg from wall = 1d6? 1d4?
Falls prone in square next to wall?
Through the wall?!

Also added "roundhouse kick"


Your right "Do not provoke an AoO" a good idea. Less confusion.

On Counter Attack (or block?) would it really matter if it were an AoO? Explain the diference please? And I think ima leave it as Counter Attack b/c counter block sounds like your breaking a block (block breaker?)

Also added "Upper cut" to attacks... hope you like it

Farmer42
2008-03-20, 03:51 PM
I'd make axe-kicks much more devastating (because they are) and instead of taking such a hit to to-hit, take it to AC and provoke AoO (the real problem with them is that they leave you open, and telegraph).

Shinton
2008-03-20, 04:06 PM
I'd make axe-kicks much more devastating (because they are) and instead of taking such a hit to to-hit, take it to AC and provoke AoO (the real problem with them is that they leave you open, and telegraph).

Actually I never thought of making it AoO. Thats a good idea. How much ac are you thinking? 4? 5?

Maybe a 2 die increase? (d6-->d10?)
+ 2x str mod?

I'll throw it up into the ideas for now. But its definitally gonna provoke AoO

Farmer42
2008-03-20, 04:42 PM
How about denied dex to AC for the next round, along with the AoO. And maybe bump the die up by one, and then double. It should be a devastating blow, but one that seriously leaves you open.

sonofzeal
2008-03-20, 05:43 PM
Hm... i was looking at grapple today and it says monks can do full damage with their unarmed strike ina grapple... so headbutts kind of useless... less it gets a damage increase.
It's still nice, but you're right that it's really all about the damage boost here. A larger one might be in order.


Throw, wow that looks fun.
Could I use this as an attack at the end? Like Snap Kick/Axe Kick/Throw?
Also, how bout damaging other people with your throwing victim?
Spiked armor + throw = ouch?

Also, what about thrown into a wall?
Dmg from wall = 1d6? 1d4?
Falls prone in square next to wall?
Through the wall?!

Also added "roundhouse kick"

The ToB maneuver "Mighty Throw" is what I based this on. It's a standard action instead of part of an attack, but that version doesn't let you throw people into things for extra damage (only off cliffs and the such). There's a much more advanced one, "Comet Throw", which causes 4d6 damage when they hit something (wall, ground, ally, whatever), and if you hit someone else they take the same damage. That'd be a lvl 15+ ability though, probably.

"Roundhouse Kick".... hmm. Auto-flatfoot is rather harsh, I'd try to add some sort of skill check into there - Balance, Bluff, or Tumble. The DC would be their AC. The idea's nice though.


On Counter Attack (or block?) would it really matter if it were an AoO? Explain the diference please? And I think ima leave it as Counter Attack b/c counter block sounds like your breaking a block (block breaker?)
The difference is your turn's supply of Attacks of Opportunity is limited. Let's say somebody already tried to run by you, and you took an AoO to trip them. If this is also an AoO, you then couldn't make this attack without Combat Reflexes. And even with Combat Reflexes, if you're loaded up with Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike, you could easily run out. On the other hand, as those two attacks indicate, making enemy attacks provoke AoO's is a popular option.

Also, "Breaker" might be a good attack. "This melee attack bypasses hardness" or somesuch.


Also added "Upper cut" to attacks... hope you like it
Looks good!

Shinton
2008-03-21, 09:10 AM
ooh...
Either way, Comet throw looks good, but kinda looks like something a larger creature would be able to do.

For roundhouse i think I'm going to use bluff, I suppose auto-flatfoot is a bit much. I'll have to think on it.

Breaker: I suppose this would be great for doors/golems stuff like that?

And also, I was kind of looking for something to do with Ki Damage. I don't really understand how they "channel their Ki into their attacks" but it only affects things with DR...

Zurpl
2008-03-26, 11:54 AM
Would you want to add some kind of check to account for reaction time? Or is that a bit too much for this?

Shinton
2008-03-26, 07:59 PM
Zurpl:

What are you talking about?

Reaction time to roundhouse kick?

In general?

Make a "Time" check and gain a free action :smallconfused:

Zurpl
2008-03-26, 10:55 PM
Oh. I'm sorry. Sometimes when I'm in a hurry I can say what I mean to say without referencing what it's about. I was talking about the blocks! Do you need or rather want some kind of check to adjust for the time it takes to react? Maybe blocking and a deficit (say -2 for instance)?

Shinton
2008-03-27, 07:47 PM
Oh.

Wow blocking...

Um... Lesee...

Well I was kinda thinking about a few things. Um you can't block while flatfooted.. (unless.... ?)

You can attempt to make an extra block even if you have used all your attacks per round @ a -2 cumulative penalty to your ab for the block (1st extra: -2, 2nd: -4 3rd: -6).

Reaction time? Eh I think that might be going kinda far. Maybe until lvl 5 a -2 to all block attempts because your still "novice-y" . Then a -1 til 10 then its not penalty.