Incantatrix or Iot7v?

[Frosty]

I haven't built many wizards lately, and I'm thinking about building one for fun. Which class combination would you say is more 1) more powerful and 2) more fun to play?

Wizard 5/Iot7v 7/Incantatrix 8
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Iot7v 5
Wizard 5/Iot7v 7/Archmage 5/PRC 3
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5

[Azerian Kelimon]

For sadism, the first door is the one I pick, Monty.

For something fun to play That doesn't COMPLETELY obsolete your fellow players, the third option is best.

[Frosty]

Iot7v + archmage doesn't make other players feel useless?

And I don't have the book right now, but what exactly does the last 2 levels of incantatrix offer?

[Xefas]

Well, the first one (the Wizard 5/Initiate 7/Incantrix 8) essentially means you're never going to die come Hell, high water, or legions of Winged Tarrasmotniks (that's the Tarrasque, Asmodeus, and Doctor Robotnik fused DBZ style). And also that you're capable, with the right metamagic feat selection, of destroying countries and godlings alike at your whimsy.

So, I guess my vote for 'power' would be the first one.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

IotSV has a more defensive bent, and so is probably less gamebreakingly powerful, since creatures of a significantly higher CR will be able to get through or around the veils one way or another, whereas it's always hard to fend off a multitude of freely quickened/persisted high level spells. That said, I believe Wizard5/IotSVX is illegal due to skill requirements, so if you were going to use both (in a theoretical build, I hope) you'd be better off starting with Incantatrix. I'd either go to Incantatrix 7 for that no-spellcraft-required free metamagic, or go to Incantatrix 10 for the ATB reduced metamagic cost. So the builds would look like so:

Wiz5/Incantatrix7/IotSV7/AM1
or
Wiz5/Incantatrix10/IotSV5 (which you already posted)

Also note that some of that Wiz5 could be replaced by Master Abjurer, especially if you're going for IotSV.

[Azerian Kelimon]

IoTSV makes DEFENSIVE abilties useless, which will uselessfy a knight, but not most other guys. Archmage is standard and something most groups cna cope with. Incantatrix, though....*shudders*.

The last two levels give you an extra use of instant metamagic, a bonus feat, and...prep yourself...Improved metamagic, which is teh borkenzorz. The reason the first option is still better is that, while impoved metamagic is amazing, you're already an offensive god, so becoming a defensive god is better.

[Frosty]

What's ATB? Incantatrix is from magic of Faerun right? I haven't looked at it and Iot7v in a looong time, so I gotta figure out what I'll lose with the last 3 levels of Incantatrix vs the last 2 levels of Iot7v.

And what does Improved Metamagic do? Lower meta cost?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

What's ATB? Incantatrix is from magic of Faerun right? I haven't looked at it and Iot7v in a looong time, so I gotta figure out what I'll lose with the last 3 levels of Incantatrix vs the last 2 levels of Iot7v.

And what does Improved Metamagic do? Lower meta cost?Sorry, ATB means across-the-board. Incantatrix is from Player's Guide to Faerun. I don't know how much information I can post, but both Incantatrix and IotSV get quite a bit of goodies at their last two levels.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Indeed. As for what you lose, you lose snatch spell or summat like that, a bonus feat, an extra use of instant metamagic, and impro metamagic if you miss those three levels, and the indigo and violet veils plus the Kaleidoscopic Doom from IoTSV. A lot more crippling to your defensiveness losing those two levels than losing three incantatrix levels.

[Frosty]

And if you know that your game might veyr well go into epic levels, what build you would suggest?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Any, and grossly abuse epic spells.

[Crowheart]

Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil can only be taken after level 10 anyway. To do any of the above mentioned builds, you'd have to dip into incantatrix first or take more wizard levels.

If you care nothing for being dumb god-awful powerful, Incantatrix is the way to go.

I played an Incantatrix into the epic levels. My experience was very dismal, to say the least, but then again, we were asked to remain fairly core concerning spell and feat selections.

You can't imagine how disheartening it is to be foiled by paragon gargoyles, mere CR 19's. Stupidly high SR and touch AC. *sulk*

[Azerian Kelimon]

Pity you didn't have Sonic spheres. Those kill anything. Though a Solid fog would have worked.

[Frosty]

Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil can only be taken after level 10 anyway. To do any of the above mentioned builds, you'd have to dip into incantatrix first or take more wizard levels.

If you care nothing for being dumb god-awful powerful, Incantatrix is the way to go.

I played an Incantatrix into the epic levels. My experience was very dismal, to say the least, but then again, we were asked to remain fairly core concerning spell and feat selections.

You can't imagine how disheartening it is to be foiled by paragon gargoyles, mere CR 19's. Stupidly high SR and touch AC. *sulk*

True Strike for the win?

Oh yeah, is 3.5 Incantatrix stronger than 3.0 version?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

As regards any and all IotSFV builds:

1) The pre-reqs are 12 ranks in some things. So level 10 is your first level of IotSFV. Take Incantatrix before that.

2) If you are going to take IotSFV then there is very little reason to not go MS Abjurer first. You get the feat back you would have gotten at level 5 (and if you are going into Archmage another pre-req feat for free) plus assorted minor benefits.

The builds I like are:

Wizard 3/MS 2/Incantatrix 4/IotSFV 7/Incantatrix 4, then finish Incantatrix if you go Epic.

Wizard 3/MS 6/IotSFV 7/MS 4/Epic Wizard levels after that? Or Epic MS? Or Epic IotSFV? Are there Epic progressions for any of these classes?

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archamge 5.

[Frosty]

Now, if I were to specialize in Conjuration to get the Abrupt Jaunt feature (which I still don't know if its (Su) (SLA) or (Su) grr), which schools should I ban?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah, 3.0 incantatrix is weaker than 3.5. And I'd drop Evocation and Enchantment, if I were you. Mostly sucky, they are. Enchantment is a sort of hit, but you can do without it.

[Frosty]

Hmm, losing Contingency sucks, but...the rest of Evocation really sucks.

So what school would be good to focus on? I'm thinking one powerful option might be to focus on Enervation. Level drain without saves is hard to stop. Another option to focus on Orb spells and blast things to death.

Let's see...Arcane Thesis, possibly Metamagic School Focus, Iron Will, Empower Spell, Split Ray, and what else reduces metamagic?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmm, losing Contingency sucks, but...the rest of Evocation really sucks.

So what school would be good to focus on? I'm thinking one powerful option might be to focus on Enervation. Level drain without saves is hard to stop. Another option to focus on Orb spells and blast things to death.

Let's see...Arcane Thesis, possibly Metamagic School Focus, Iron Will, Empower Spell, Split Ray, and what else reduces metamagic?

Greater Shadow Evocation lets you duplicate Contingency

Also, Iot7V's capstone is really the Violet Veil, which duplicates that particular color in the Prismatic Wall. In other words, you're immune to YES, and anyone trying to get through has to make a save or get ported to a random plane. That's one hell of an immunity. And best of all, by that time, you get to bring it up in response to an enemy attack.

Incantatrix's nifty capstone ability is to make a sufficently difficult Spellcraft check to cast a metamagic spell without increasing caster level.

[Frosty]

Makes me immune to YES? Is that another acronym?


Incantatrix's nifty capstone ability is to make a sufficently difficult Spellcraft check to cast a metamagic spell without increasing caster level

Doesn't that only apply to another allied spellcaster?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Makes me immune to YES? Is that another acronym?

Doesn't that only apply to another allied spellcaster?
1. Just take a look at the violet part of Prismatic Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticWall.htm), which is what the veils are based on in the first place. Immunity to YES just means: Am I immune to that effect? YES.
2. Actually, the capstone for Incantatrix (I thought the male form was Incantalar, not Incantatar, but it doesn't matter) is the across-the-board metamagic cost reducer, Improved Metamagic. All the spellcraft-reliant abilities are given at earlier levels.

[Frosty]

So it's like Arcane thesis for every single one of your spells?

On a separate note, how good is the ACF where I trade away a wizard bonus feat for spontaneous casting of *any* divinations pell? It doesn't even have to be a wizard one! Sound nifty to me. I never have to waste time learning See invisible or True Seeing or anything.

Eww: I just saw you gotta give up an extra school with Incantatrix. Still good, but what school...I don't wanna give up Illusions. Way too good. But what school benefits from metamagic the least?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

*swats with 3.0 sourcebook*

Bad Frosty. Baaadd. Don't exploit WotCs idiocy. That's wrong. No. Noooo.
Or at least that's what your DM would say.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

So it's like Arcane thesis for every single one of your spells?

On a separate note, how good is the ACF where I trade away a wizard bonus feat for spontaneous casting of *any* divinations pell? It doesn't even have to be a wizard one! Sound nifty to me. I never have to waste time learning See invisible or True Seeing or anything.

Eww: I just saw you gotta give up an extra school with Incantatrix. Still good, but what school...I don't wanna give up Illusions. Way too good. But what school benefits from metamagic the least?

Arcane thesis has no limit to the level adjustment reduction. An Incantatrix with no other metamagic reducers would still cast a Silent spell at a +1 level adjustment.

I don't know much about spontaneous divination, other than its cheesy combinations with Ultimate Magus.

Being a generalist or a diviner helps ease the burden for that extra specialization. I suppose it's a plus for IotSV that its entry requirements are much less painful.

[Frosty]

True I can just spec divination, but then I miss out on the juicy Abrupt Jaunt...gah! So much options, so small a cheese-container

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

On a separate note, how good is the ACF where I trade away a wizard bonus feat for spontaneous casting of *any* divinations pell? It doesn't even have to be a wizard one! Sound nifty to me. I never have to waste time learning See invisible or True Seeing or anything.

Also note it applies to any Divination spell cast by half caster classes as well. So Paladin/Ranger/Half casters in Complete Divine are all giving you their Divination spells.

And check out Trapsmith or something in Dungeonscape. It has Clairvoyance/Audiance as a 1st or 2nd level spell.

[Frosty]

That's pretty...badass. There are some very good divination spells out there.

[Chronicled]

If you want to be a truly badass conjurer, read this: Treantmonk's guide to Wizards - Being a god (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956548). If you have access to the Spell Compendium (and even if you don't), Conjuration is the best school to specialize in, followed by Transmutation, simply for spell choices. Toss in Abrupt Jaunt, and it's not really a contest any more. You should specialize in a school that has 1) a spell you want to take every level, 2) a spell each level that you would cast every day 3) other goodies. Conjuration is that school.

The spontaneous divinations is absolutely amazing. Take it, and never prep a divination again.

I wouldn't specialize in divination just to keep access to a school. As long as you keep Conjuration, Transmutation, and Illusion, you'll do fine. Abjuration and Necromancy are extremely helpful, but either can be lost if needed. Remember, you're only as flexible as the spells you have ready, so the more the merrier (and why focused specialist is worth a serious look). I've never been in a game where keeping spell slots open for later memorization is a good idea until the very late levels.

As an unmentioned option: if you have Races of Eberron, the Changling offers some interesting choices with its dual specialization (specialize in Illusion and Transmutation, give up 3 schools) alternate class feature, and access to the Recaster PrC, which gives a great deal of metamagic flexibility for 1 caster level lost.

Keep in mind, if you go Incantrix in your later levels, you can nab all the lower-level spells of the school you're going to ban.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So it's like Arcane thesis for every single one of your spells?

On a separate note, how good is the ACF where I trade away a wizard bonus feat for spontaneous casting of *any* divinations pell? It doesn't even have to be a wizard one! Sound nifty to me. I never have to waste time learning See invisible or True Seeing or anything.

Eww: I just saw you gotta give up an extra school with Incantatrix. Still good, but what school...I don't wanna give up Illusions. Way too good. But what school benefits from metamagic the least?

Or be a Sorcerer and not bother having to ban anything...

[valadil]

Incantatrix still bans a school, even if you're a sorcerer. I'm not sure if this goes for 3.5, but in the 3.0 version if abjuration was your wizard spec school you didn't have to ban anything else.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Or be a Sorcerer and not bother having to ban anything...

Or be a Fighter and not have to worry about spells!

Oh wait, that's about as stupid.

Incantatrix is has abilities that are keyed off of Spellcraft checks with hard DCs, and you can use Int Mod + 3 times a day. At what point did anyone start thinking a Cha based spellcaster could actually use those abilities?

[Frosty]

If you want to be a truly badass conjurer, read this: Treantmonk's guide to Wizards - Being a god (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956548). If you have access to the Spell Compendium (and even if you don't), Conjuration is the best school to specialize in, followed by Transmutation, simply for spell choices. Toss in Abrupt Jaunt, and it's not really a contest any more. You should specialize in a school that has 1) a spell you want to take every level, 2) a spell each level that you would cast every day 3) other goodies. Conjuration is that school.

The spontaneous divinations is absolutely amazing. Take it, and never prep a divination again.

I wouldn't specialize in divination just to keep access to a school. As long as you keep Conjuration, Transmutation, and Illusion, you'll do fine. Abjuration and Necromancy are extremely helpful, but either can be lost if needed. Remember, you're only as flexible as the spells you have ready, so the more the merrier (and why focused specialist is worth a serious look). I've never been in a game where keeping spell slots open for later memorization is a good idea until the very late levels.

As an unmentioned option: if you have Races of Eberron, the Changling offers some interesting choices with its dual specialization (specialize in Illusion and Transmutation, give up 3 schools) alternate class feature, and access to the Recaster PrC, which gives a great deal of metamagic flexibility for 1 caster level lost.

Keep in mind, if you go Incantrix in your later levels, you can nab all the lower-level spells of the school you're going to ban.

I can't ban Necromancy since I want to use Enervation. I can't ban Abjuration because Incantatrix says I can't iirc (and an Iot7v with banned abjuration? That'll be funny) I was actually thinking of banning transmutation if I don't want to abuse polymorph. I mean, what cool spells would I lose with transmutation?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Or be a Fighter and not have to worry about spells!

Oh wait, that's about as stupid.

Incantatrix is has abilities that are keyed off of Spellcraft checks with hard DCs, and you can use Int Mod + 3 times a day. At what point did anyone start thinking a Cha based spellcaster could actually use those abilities?

Umm... Spellcraft is a Sorcerer skill too, and nothing says they can't have at least an average, if not above average, Int score. Sure, they might not be able to apply it as often as a Wizard might, but being able to do that even 3 times a day is still pretty world-shattering. And once you run out, just hide in your Rope Trick/MMM until they refresh.


And for Frosty: Banning Evocation is a no-brainer, you can make up for it elsewhere. Banning Enchantment hurts, but doable. Your third college, however, is going to be the PITA. Everything hurts. You can't ban Abjuration because of Iot7V, you don't want to ban Conjuration, you specialize in it, you don't want to ban Transmuation, that's things like Disintegrate, Feather Fall, Rope Trick/MMM, Fly... all your bread and butter utility stuff. You don't want to ban Illusion because that's your Contingency now that you've banned Evocation. You aren't *allowed* to ban Divinaiton.

Really, your only options at this point are Necro and loose Enervation, or Illusion and loose some very good defensive stuff (like Mirror Image) and Contingency. Everything else hurts too bad to loose.

[Chronicled]

I mean, what cool spells would I lose with transmutation?

All of them.

On a more serious note: transmutation vies with conjuration as having the best spells in the game. This is without any of the polymorph cheese. Getting rid of transmutation will hurt HARD.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Umm... Spellcraft is a Sorcerer skill too, and nothing says they can't have at least an average, if not above average, Int score. Sure, they might not be able to apply it as often as a Wizard might, but being able to do that even 3 times a day is still pretty world-shattering. And once you run out, just hide in your Rope Trick/MMM until they refresh.

Umm... Int mod makes up about 1/3-1/2 of your modifier at any level. That only works because you can afford to pump Int.

The DCs are hard for a Wizard, nearly impossible for a Sorcerer.

Wizard-I can attempt to Persist buffs 12 times, with about a 50% chance of success. If I fail, just use another attempt.

Sorcerer-I can attempt to Persist buffs 5 times a day with a 5% chance of success. Most days I can't even do it.

Wizard- I can Shape/Extend/whatever spells 12 times with a 100% success rating

Sorcerer- I can Shape/Extend/whatever 5 times a day with a 60% success rating. I usually get three spells to work this way if I don't blow all my attempts trying to Persist one buff.

Wizard-I also didn't waste any money, since everything helps all my spells.

Sorcerer-I'm debating getting a +4 Item for Int instead of something useful for a Cha based Caster because I feel bad about failing all my checks.

[Frosty]

Well if I were to ban Necro and lose Enervation, what other spell should I metmagic up? I kinda want a Ray because Rays are cool with Split Ray.

Also, besides metamagic school focus and arcane thesis, what else can I do to reduce Metamagic costs? I don't think Easy metamagic is allowed because it's a dragon magazine feat.

[SamTheCleric]

I believe most rays are either evocation or necromancy... you're not gonna find a lot of rays outside those schools.

Instead of rays, why not the Orb spells? They are conjuration and nothing says loving like a maximized empowered orb of force... 90 Damage touch attack.

[Frosty]

Orbs aren't bad. But a lot of people seems to make fun of blasters...

[Azerian Kelimon]

EVOKER blasters. To make this clear, Orb wands are the basis of one of the most powerful builds in existence, the blastificer. Orbs put just about anything to shame, short of enervation and a suppah powah! Ray of idiocy to reduce INT to three plus touch of idiocy.

[Chronicled]

What are you getting for banning Necromancy? Are you going into Incantrix (which, if you do after your Iot7V levels, will mean you have all the Necromancy spells anyways)? Or are you going Focused Specialization (where you'll have enough Conjuration spells to mimic Necromancy effects)?

[Frosty]

Well I guess in terms of fun, both Orbs and Enervation are the same amount of fun, and I can specialize in Conjuration without worry The question is...which Orb? Force is irresistable, but less damage. Sonic is less damage *and* can be resisted, although rarely. (strangely enough, on a side note, Asmodeus always has protection from energy (sonic) prepared and pre-buffed) Then there are the secondary effects of each orb as well. Maybe Fire Orb and take the feat Energy Substitution (Electricity)?

[Chronicled]

If you're subbing energy, go Cold. Fewer things have Cold resistance, if I remember right.

Conjuration also has most of the best debuffs in the game, which are a great thing to focus on. Treantmonk has a lot of good stuff on that in his guide; there's also this one: The Conjurer's Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=918686).

[Frosty]

What are you getting for banning Necromancy? Are you going into Incantrix (which, if you do after your Iot7V levels, will mean you have all the Necromancy spells anyways)? Or are you going Focused Specialization (where you'll have enough Conjuration spells to mimic Necromancy effects)?

I'm actually thinking of just going into Incantatrix all the way before Iot7v. Mainly because I can't take Iot7v until like level 10, so waiting is eww. Also, I thought once you drop a school, you can't cast anything from the school, even from scrolls?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Sub acid, not cold. There's almost nothing out there with acid immunity, IIRC.

[Frosty]

Too bad I can't apply energy sub spontaneously. I wonder how many monsters are immune to two elements anyways. Being immune to both Fire and Cold or Fire and Electricity or Fire and Acid would be pretty rare indeed.

[Mooch]

along the same lines as this I am a bit confused about gestalt characters

if I had a cleric//wizard and wanted to take Incantrix would it have to be on the same side as the wizard or could it be on the same side as cleric since the character in general would meet the requirments (same with the IotSFV and any other prestige class)

[tyckspoon]

if I had a cleric//wizard and wanted to take Incantrix would it have to be on the same side as the wizard or could it be on the same side as cleric since the character in general would meet the requirments (same with the IotSFV and any other prestige class)

I think that's officially an 'Ask your DM' situation. I personally would make you take prestige classes on the same side as the class(es) that qualified you for it, but I don't think the rules themselves say anything about it.

[Mooch]

yeah thats the feeling I was getting from the rules but I thought I would ask anyway

[Zincorium]

along the same lines as this I am a bit confused about gestalt characters

if I had a cleric//wizard and wanted to take Incantrix would it have to be on the same side as the wizard or could it be on the same side as cleric since the character in general would meet the requirments (same with the IotSFV and any other prestige class)

You could take it on the 'cleric side' (the 'sides' business is abstraction, gestalt characters still only have one progression, albeit an excellent one), but you gain no benefit from leaving wizard on the wizard side, as you will only gain +1 spellcasting level of wizard no matter what combination you have. Gestalt only takes the best progression, and the best progression is +1, period.

Additionally, '+1 level of arcane spellcasting class' means you'd have to advance wizard spellcasting, as that is your only arcane class. If it were to simply say +1 level of existing spellcasting class, you could use it to progress cleric as well as going up in wizard levels. If you had another arcane spellcasting class, like bard or sorcerer, you can take either PrC instead of those and advance them while retaining your wizard spellcasting progression, although this carries little innate advantage.

Edit:

As to the 'sides' thing: it doesn't exist, not really. The fact that you choose two classes and combine them means that you can qualify for PrCs with any benefits available to your character.

For example, a fighter//wizard has one class. This class gives wizard spellcasting progression, full BAB, and 2+int skill points a level. If a PrC requires, say, +5 BAB and 3rd level spells, the character qualifies for it at 5th level.

Your DM may differ from this, as is their perogative. But they deserve any headache that results.

[Frosty]

Any other suggestions besides Orbs on what spells can be used very well with lots of metamagic?

[Azerian Kelimon]

BWAHAHAHAHA! Good you asked! Maw of CHAOS! Munchkined, it just might be the most powerful damage spell out there.

Of course, spheres (Different from Orbs) are excellent. Also, can Disintegrate be maximized? If so, abuse it.

[SamTheCleric]

Blast of Flame is a 60' cone of fire. 3rd level Conjuration Spell. I think it's d6 per level. (SpC) Acid Breath is similar.

Extended Melf's can cause some damage.

Widened or Sculpted Evard's is fun.

You can never go wrong with an extended Greater Mage Armor.

Those are just the conjuration ones off the top of my head :)

[Frosty]

BWAHAHAHAHA! Good you asked! Maw of CHAOS! Munchkined, it just might be the most powerful damage spell out there.

Of course, spheres (Different from Orbs) are excellent. Also, can Disintegrate be maximized? If so, abuse it.

I'm not sure what the Sphere spells are. Hmm...I'm looking steer away from damage for now. If I did, I'd probably go for orbs.

Blast of Flame huh? Save for half? Bleh, I hate spells with saves.