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Kizara
2008-03-20, 02:16 AM
So, I have a character concept and I was pondering how to best produce it mechanically.

Now, I'll warn you that its a bit restrictive in both books allowed and the requirements of the concept.

That being said, I would appreciate some help.


The character concept is a githyanki hunter that tracks down, hunts and slaughters mind flayers.

I'm going to be using the githyanki in the MM, not the ones in the XPH. Note, my mindflayer opponents will have access to the XPH and psionic abilities, just I'm using the 'less psionic' version of the githyanki race. Also, my DM allows me to sub the bonus to Dex for a bonus to Str.

I basically have the stats that I need, assume 90-97 points. While straight-18s aren't possible (or desired), 4 of them is possible. Character is gestalt. Multiclassing penalties generally aren't used.


I want the character to be optimized, but not cheesed-out and the character concept of a cold, reasouceful solo-hunter is important to maintain. Also, str-based combat orientation without much casting reliance. High Cha is a plus too.

The books allowed are Core + PHB2, Complete War/Arc/Div/Adv, Heros of Horror and Battle, Races of Stone/Wild/Destiny and a few others I may have neglected. Specific bans include ToB, Complete Champ/Scoud and spell compendium.


Please note that all the "ZOMG CASTERS WIN!!!" crap that is trouted out constantly around here (hey, I do it too) is mostly houseruled out/nerfed. Examples: spells like fly take a round to cast, casting defensively is harder and more dangerous, celerity is removed, etc. I don't expect people to compensate for my house rules, but I just don't want to hear "that's not possible/horribly impractical."


Currently, aside from getting occult slayer 5, barbarian 1, hexblade 3, ranger 1 and fighter 2 I'm out of ideas. Especially with Gestalt, that leaves alot of levels left to fill.

Serpentine
2008-03-20, 02:37 AM
Equipment: Hat of Aluminium Foil.

*nods*

Cuddly
2008-03-20, 02:44 AM
Most psionic powers allow for a save, so get your saves as high as possible. Blackguard/hexblade or paladin of tyranny/hexblade would be good, since with 90-97 points, MAD is no big deal.

I would keep the dex, since it guards against touch attacks, which are often nasty.

Is there any reason you're not going Psychic Warrior5/Illithid slayerX//Lion Totem barb 1/ranger1/hex3(4)/pal2(3)? Taking another level in hex and pal will give you a -4 debuff to everything around you, which will be nice for any party casters, or any save-or-lose you want to toss around.

Of course, you're going to have to be a champion of evil things, but then, gith have never been that 'good'.

Kizara
2008-03-20, 04:18 AM
Most psionic powers allow for a save, so get your saves as high as possible. Blackguard/hexblade or paladin of tyranny/hexblade would be good, since with 90-97 points, MAD is no big deal.

I would keep the dex, since it guards against touch attacks, which are often nasty.

Is there any reason you're not going Psychic Warrior5/Illithid slayerX//Lion Totem barb 1/ranger1/hex3(4)/pal2(3)? Taking another level in hex and pal will give you a -4 debuff to everything around you, which will be nice for any party casters, or any save-or-lose you want to toss around.

Of course, you're going to have to be a champion of evil things, but then, gith have never been that 'good'.

The character concept is one who has a severe distain and hatred for mindflayers and psionics in general. Thus, the Mage Slayer feats are in order, but taking a psionic class is against the flavor/concept. Also, I just don't like psionics personally. Kinda in part fuels my character concept :).

Also, pounce barb is out cause complete champion is out (not to mention it would be banned anyways, no way pounce= +10ft movement). The rest of what you suggested I already had in mind. Thing is, if you build that out (my version of it anyway):

(rough)

Side 1: Ranger 1 (urban, for urban tracking)/fighter 2/paladin of try 3/ ??? 5

Side 2: Barb 1 (homebrew lawful variant that trades rage for Track)/gith LA 2/hexblade 3/occult slayer 5

I got 6 levels on one side, 11 on the other and no clue what else to take. More fighter? More ranger? Nothing really is decent.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-20, 04:30 AM
I'd suggest putting all that BaB and fort save love on one side of the progression to avoid redundancy. On the other side, a more rogue-ish class would probably work out if you want to avoid heavy magic.

If magic/psionics transparency works the way I think it does, Spellthief might work pretty well as the other side of your gestalt progression. Competence bonus to saves, sneak attack, useful skills, and the ability to take Mr. Mindflayer's powers and shove them up... to where they belong.

Edit: Not to mention it has a good will save progression, which is pretty key for a mind flayer hunter. That or mind blank at will.

Kizara
2008-03-20, 04:38 AM
I'd suggest putting all that BaB and fort save love on one side of the progression to avoid redundancy. On the other side, a more rogue-ish class would probably work out if you want to avoid heavy magic.

If magic/psionics transparency works the way I think it does, Spellthief might work pretty well as the other side of your gestalt progression. Competence bonus to saves, sneak attack, useful skills, and the ability to take Mr. Mindflayer's powers and shove them up... to where they belong.

Edit: Not to mention it has a good will save progression, which is pretty key for a mind flayer hunter. That or mind blank at will.

Not bad ideas really. Only thing is the character's combat style is more at home with the Shock Trooper chain then sneak-attack set-ups. I'll have a look at spelltheif, but the flavor is such that the character couldn't concieve of 'tainting' himself in that fashion.

Still, a re-flavored rogue might be a good idea since the character will be fairly skill-needy but all of the str-based classes he'll want to be taking mostly suck at it. Another thought is leveling ranger, since favored enemy isn't that bad if you know you will always be fighting that enemy.

Oh, and occult slayer does get continous mindblank at level 5. He also gets spell turning 2/day and some other goodies. Seriously, its on page 66 of complete warrior, take a look at it. It's an awesome class IMO.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-20, 04:47 AM
Well, since you're probably not dumping INT, there's always Factotum.

Kizara
2008-03-20, 05:04 AM
Well, since you're probably not dumping INT, there's always Factotum.

Yea, I don't intend to dump Int. Semi-dump Wis and Dex more than anything.

What does Factorum do exactly? I don't have dungeonscape around. I know you can't re-print it verbatum, but just like a review/summary of the class would be nice.

Ascension
2008-03-20, 06:07 AM
Yea, I don't intend to dump Int. Semi-dump Wis and Dex more than anything.

What does Factorum do exactly? I don't have dungeonscape around. I know you can't re-print it verbatum, but just like a review/summary of the class would be nice.

The better question is, "What doesn't Factotum do?"

The factotum's entire gimmick is a limited supply of 'inspiration points' it can spend in order to gain a whole variety of INT-fueled abilities which basically replicate any and all other classes' abilities. IIRC they can access a very limited number of arcane and divine spells up to level seven or eight, they can get bonuses to their fighting abilities, they get trapfinding and can get bonuses to it, I think they might even be able to turn undead.

Basically for a gestalt character, factotum would allow you to use your intelligence to make yourself better at whatever you want to be better at a limited number of times per day.

leperkhaun
2008-03-20, 06:17 AM
let me go looking later today when i get home. there is a PrC class that is basically an ilithid hunter.

you might be able to talk your DM into it, but im pretty sure its a 3.0 class.

Ascension
2008-03-20, 06:20 AM
Already been brought up... it's psionic, he doesn't want to be psionic.

Keld Denar
2008-03-20, 08:12 AM
I don't know what weapon you are looking at using, but if you go Exotic (spiked chain) you should look into EWM in CWar. The Flurry of Strikes ability is just that good. More attacks mean more damage...expodentially. Another thought might be to take a 2bladed Sword, but only use 1 side of it at a time. This would simultaniously allow you to Flurry of Strikes and Slashing Fury(PHBII) for 2 extra attacks at -4 to all attacks, AND allow you to 2:1 power attack and get 1.5x str. A couple of the other stunts are nice, but Flurry of Strikes is the big one.

Another option on your non-full BAB side could be Dragon Disciple. If you can get your Hexblade level high enough to get 2nd level spells, you can add all your DD spells/day to that. It also gets nice bonuses to Str, Cha, and Con.

1 Hex1//Barb1 Tracking ACF (that you specify)
2 Hex2//Gith1
3 Hex3//Gith2
4 Hex4//Pal1 Dark Companion ACF
5 Hex5//Pal2
6 Hex6//Pal3
7 Hex7//Pal4 Holy Warrior ACF for bonus feat
8 Hex8//DD1
9 Hex9//DD2
10 OS1//DD3
11 OS2//DD4
12 OS3//DD5
13 OS4//DD6
14 OS5//DD7
15 PT1//DD8
16 PT2//DD9
17 PT3//DD10
18 PT4//EWM1
19 PT5//EWM2?
20 PT6//Ftr1?

Max out Cha and Str, and get Con high. Take Power Attack, Divine Might, Minor Shapeshift (run on Hexblade CL which increase with DD), Weapon Focus (you get Weapon Spec for free), Imp Init, Melee Weapon Mastery and the +14 BAB feat if you use a Slashing or Bludgeoning weapon(Driving Attack sucks since its a Full Round action for 1 attack...blah!). If you use a slashing weapon, your main ranged attack will be Whirling Blade cast from your Hexblade slots including all of bonus DD spells to your 2nd level slot. You also get some fast advancing Pal casting from Pious Templar for some of the nice Spell Compendium Pal spells like Rhino's Rush, Knights Move, Righteous Fury, and others, along with Mettle and some DR from it.
EDIT3: Oops, no SpC stuff. Hmmmm, maybe look at the Blackguard list for PT.


I dunno, what do you think? Look solid? Probably could use some tweaking, but all in all, not bad.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a Gith using a 2bladed Sword. You can Flurry and Slashing Fury for extra attacks in melee, AND you can throw it with Whirling Blade. It just screams style because come on....who else would be crazy enough to use a 2bladed Sword than a Gith?

EDIT2: If you really beg your DM, you might be able to convince him/her to allow Flurry of Strikes from EWM to count as Flurry of Blows with respect to qualifying for the Sun School tactical feat. That's got some nice synergy with a Gith's natural Dim Door ability and your crazy high Cha and a Sudden Stunning(DMGII) weapon enhancement. Blink + reflex save or stun...you'd be like Magina with duel bashers!

Citizen Joe
2008-03-20, 10:15 AM
Mind Flayers have three things going for them: Minions, Psioinics/magic, Brain extracting attack. If you can eliminate or avoid those three things, then the rest is childsplay.

If you can find a way to kill the telepathic link, his minions become disorganized. If you can maintain a psychic/magic dead zone you can avoid the ranged attacks.
If you move your brain to an inaccessible location, then the tentacle attacks are useless.

At that point just hack away with a cleaver.

You may also want to use bait such that when captured, the mindflayer attempts to extract the brain but instead ingests a psychic toxin.

JWhitehead
2008-03-20, 10:51 AM
Are you allowed the magic item compendium? This isnt so much a piece of build advice as one armour crystal I love, its a +5 to mind affecting saves and a once a day re-roll on the same. If you are allowed to use the book its worth checking out a lot of items in there as they can oft. fill the gaps classes leave

Keld Denar
2008-03-20, 10:57 AM
Are you allowed the magic item compendium? This isnt so much a piece of build advice as one armour crystal I love, its a +5 to mind affecting saves and a once a day re-roll on the same. If you are allowed to use the book its worth checking out a lot of items in there as they can oft. fill the gaps classes leave

Crystal is kind of redundant. Occult Slayer5 gives complete immunity to all spells and effects with the Mind Affecting discripter. Its not complete Mind Blank, but close enough for all intents and purposes.

DrizztFan24
2008-03-20, 12:49 PM
What about a tweaked Suel Archanamach(sp?)? Or do you want NO spellcasting? I think its in Comp. Arc.

bosssmiley
2008-03-20, 01:02 PM
Try the Illithid Hunter PrC (source: ???), or - if you can stomach homebrew - the Progenitor of the Gith racial PrC by K and Frank Trollman (found in their Dungeonomicon IIRC).

Renegade Paladin
2008-03-20, 01:14 PM
Illithid Hunter is in Lords of Madness, I believe.

Kizara
2008-03-20, 10:32 PM
I don't know what weapon you are looking at using, but if you go Exotic (spiked chain) you should look into EWM in CWar. The Flurry of Strikes ability is just that good. More attacks mean more damage...expodentially. Another thought might be to take a 2bladed Sword, but only use 1 side of it at a time. This would simultaniously allow you to Flurry of Strikes and Slashing Fury(PHBII) for 2 extra attacks at -4 to all attacks, AND allow you to 2:1 power attack and get 1.5x str. A couple of the other stunts are nice, but Flurry of Strikes is the big one.

Another option on your non-full BAB side could be Dragon Disciple. If you can get your Hexblade level high enough to get 2nd level spells, you can add all your DD spells/day to that. It also gets nice bonuses to Str, Cha, and Con.

1 Hex1//Barb1 Tracking ACF (that you specify)
2 Hex2//Gith1
3 Hex3//Gith2
4 Hex4//Pal1 Dark Companion ACF
5 Hex5//Pal2
6 Hex6//Pal3
7 Hex7//Pal4 Holy Warrior ACF for bonus feat
8 Hex8//DD1
9 Hex9//DD2
10 OS1//DD3
11 OS2//DD4
12 OS3//DD5
13 OS4//DD6
14 OS5//DD7
15 PT1//DD8
16 PT2//DD9
17 PT3//DD10
18 PT4//EWM1
19 PT5//EWM2?
20 PT6//Ftr1?

Max out Cha and Str, and get Con high. Take Power Attack, Divine Might, Minor Shapeshift (run on Hexblade CL which increase with DD), Weapon Focus (you get Weapon Spec for free), Imp Init, Melee Weapon Mastery and the +14 BAB feat if you use a Slashing or Bludgeoning weapon(Driving Attack sucks since its a Full Round action for 1 attack...blah!). If you use a slashing weapon, your main ranged attack will be Whirling Blade cast from your Hexblade slots including all of bonus DD spells to your 2nd level slot. You also get some fast advancing Pal casting from Pious Templar for some of the nice Spell Compendium Pal spells like Rhino's Rush, Knights Move, Righteous Fury, and others, along with Mettle and some DR from it.
EDIT3: Oops, no SpC stuff. Hmmmm, maybe look at the Blackguard list for PT.


I dunno, what do you think? Look solid? Probably could use some tweaking, but all in all, not bad.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a Gith using a 2bladed Sword. You can Flurry and Slashing Fury for extra attacks in melee, AND you can throw it with Whirling Blade. It just screams style because come on....who else would be crazy enough to use a 2bladed Sword than a Gith?

EDIT2: If you really beg your DM, you might be able to convince him/her to allow Flurry of Strikes from EWM to count as Flurry of Blows with respect to qualifying for the Sun School tactical feat. That's got some nice synergy with a Gith's natural Dim Door ability and your crazy high Cha and a Sudden Stunning(DMGII) weapon enhancement. Blink + reflex save or stun...you'd be like Magina with duel bashers!

hmm, some interesting ideas.

To respond to them:

1) With taking the Mage Slayer feats, you tank your caster level like crazy, so having spellcasting-dependant options (Like progressing hexblade) isn't possible.

2) Where is this holy warrior ACF?

3) Dragon Disciple is found where? I know about the 3.0 one, where is it now?
Regardless, it might not suit the flavor.

4) Pious Templar seems kinda like a crap class. The character already has Mettle and Smite. DR 2 is meaningless at this level, and I would get more bonus feats from progressing fighter. To get all this greatness, you tank 2 feats and lose 10 levels. I would rather take extra smitting and progress fighter, it would be more efficent.

5) Where is Whirling Blade?

6) My original intention was to use a mercurial greatsword, but your 2-bladed sword ideas seem pretty interesting. Makes me think of Darth Maul.

7) You get 10,000 coolness points for making a DotA reference, but unfortunately DMG2 is totally unavailable to me (dont even have a pdf) and the kind of fudging you're suggesting probably won't fly. :)

Zincorium
2008-03-20, 10:44 PM
hmm, some interesting ideas.

To respond to them:

1) With taking the Mage Slayer feats, you tank your caster level like crazy, so having spellcasting-dependant options (Like progressing hexblade) isn't possible.

Spells aren't a good reason to take hexblade anyway, I mean, their spell list is actually worse than the ranger's is nowadays. Hexblade is really only good for mettle, the bonus to saves, and possibly hexing.


3) Dragon Disciple is found where? I know about the 3.0 one, where is it now?

I take it you don't DM? Ever? It's in the DMG with the rest of the PrCs, and as they are arranged alphabetically it's between blackguard and duelist. It's also in the SRD.


4) Pious Templar seems kinda like a crap class. The character already has Mettle and Smite. DR 2 is meaningless at this level, and I would get more bonus feats from progressing fighter. To get all this greatness, you tank 2 feats and lose 10 levels. I would rather take extra smitting and progress fighter, it would be more efficent.

It's not particularly good in your specific situation, but overall Pious Templar is fairly decent. The spells alone put it past fighter in the normal course of things.

DR /- is always kind of nice, depending on how many attacks you face, DR 2/- can be worth up to fifty or more hit points per session, which the cleric doesn't have to spend spells or wand charges on.


6) My original intention was to use a mercurial greatsword, but your 2-bladed sword ideas seem pretty interesting. Makes me think of Darth Maul.

You seem to be one of the few people that doesn't think the two-bladed sword isn't silly. Regardless, it's not very good for the feat you spend to get it. If you do, might want to look into exotic weapon master, as it can give you flurry of blows with a double weapon along with the TWF. And get some sort of extra damage, you're not exactly facing fuzzy puppies with this character.

Kizara
2008-03-20, 11:06 PM
Spells aren't a good reason to take hexblade anyway, I mean, their spell list is actually worse than the ranger's is nowadays. Hexblade is really only good for mettle, the bonus to saves, and possibly hexing.

My thoughts as well.



I take it you don't DM? Ever? It's in the DMG with the rest of the PrCs, and as they are arranged alphabetically it's between blackguard and duelist. It's also in the SRD.

Heh, I actually DM often, but my group doesn't get alot of milage out of the DMG PrCs, and I never really adapted to the 3.5 DMG, as I think it's organized terribly. I read the 3.0 one cover-to-cover twice though. Nonetheless, that's embarrasing. :)



It's not particularly good in your specific situation, but overall Pious Templar is fairly decent. The spells alone put it past fighter in the normal course of things.

DR /- is always kind of nice, depending on how many attacks you face, DR 2/- can be worth up to fifty or more hit points per session, which the cleric doesn't have to spend spells or wand charges on.

Dunno, I don't think that DR 2 is meaningful, especially at that level. Imagine:

1) The Dragon hits you for 40 damage (power attack on bite attack).

2) The Dragon hits you for 38 damage. You spent 7 levels to achieve this.

3) You took 7 levels of fighter, and thus have 5 more feats.

Granted, you get some spellcasting that is based off your dump stat.



You seem to be one of the few people that doesn't think the two-bladed sword isn't silly. Regardless, it's not very good for the feat you spend to get it. If you do, might want to look into exotic weapon master, as it can give you flurry of blows with a double weapon along with the TWF. And get some sort of extra damage, you're not exactly facing fuzzy puppies with this character.

Yea, that was the suggestion. I normally don't bother with TWF/DWF, but it seemed like a cool idea. I'll be looking more into it. It might be especially viable if I go rogue on the other side, or if factorum has a source of bonus damage. Maybe also dip swashbuckler for 3?

Ascension
2008-03-20, 11:14 PM
Swashbuckler isn't a bad dip if you're planning to go high-INT anyway. Thanks to daring outlaw from Complete Scoundrel you can even dip it without losing sneak attack progression if you're willing to burn a feat.

The_Snark
2008-03-21, 12:07 AM
Swashbuckler could be good for a high-Int character, especially if you're going with rogue and using Daring Outlaw.

As either an alternative or an addition to the Occult Slayer, the Witch Slayer from Tome of Magic is both pretty decent mechanically and rather fitting flavor-wise. Mechanically, some of the abilities are only good against possessed creatures, but you also get mettle (no good if you took hexblade already, unfortunately), slippery mind (not much use if you have 5 levels of occult slayer, but good otherwise), and the ability to force enemies to make a save or essentially be in an antimagic field for a round once every five rounds; handy for pressing the attack against a spellcaster. Flavor-wise, all you need to do is switch out mention of binders for mention of mind flayers and magic-users in general, and it fits perfectly.

Keld Denar
2008-03-21, 07:52 AM
I'm sorry if I suggested using the 2bladed Sword for use while TWF. The real virtue of it is to qualify for EWM, and specifically to qualify for the Flurry of Strikes ability. An extra attack at -2 (just like a monks flurry of blows) is awesome, especially when you have the power of 1.5x str and 2:1 power attack behind it. As long as you don't claim the extra attacks from TWF, you don't take the extra penalties and you do get 2hand weapon bonuses. Just strike with 1 side of it and you are golden.

Yea, Pious Templar probably isn't the best option. I mostly tacked it on there as filler because I have no idea what else to add. Plus, since you need Weapon Focus to qualify for EWM and OS, its not that big a deal to take 1 more feat to get into it.

Whirling Blade is in SC, which I forgot you can't use. I think it first appeared in CArcane, which you can though, since you are using the Mageslayer feats. The spell isn't dependant on CL, since it has no duration, variable range, or variable damage. Basically, it allows you to make a single melee attack vs all FOES in a line out to 60'. This is a great spell to use if you can't make a full attack (such as after moving), suprise round, or you are simply out of range, it gives you a ranged attack without swapping out weapons. It is a melee attack for the purpose of applying feats and abilities to it, so you can get Divine Might, 2hand Power Attack, all the special properties of your weapon, smite, and other such modifiers. Since you designate which targets it hits, you can use it in a crowded situation without worrying about collateral. When taking Mageslayer feats, take all spells that aren't dependany on CL, like Nerveskitter, Whirling Blade, etc.

You know what, I was just thinking...an awesome class for you would be Topaz Guardian. Its discribed in Lords of Madness. Its a 5 level PrC with some really useful prereq feats (Quick Recovery from LoM) that gives you some pretty hefty bonuses vs Aberations, which all Illithid are.

I dunno if DD fits for you. It was my thought since it gets very nice unnamed bonuses to Str, Con, and Cha which stack with Inherant and Enhancement bonuses. The other features are pretty meh (although Flight as an (Ex) is nice if you get AMFed, and Blindsight is neato).

Something I'd actually recommend based on my ingame experience fighting Illithid. Grab the feat Close Quarters Fighting, even if you have a FoM ring. Nothing is scarier than getting AMFed with a mindflayer grapplemonkey and watching the tenticles slowly wrap around your skull. Lucky for me, I had a barbarian friend with a waraxe next to me, or I'd have been lunch. Trust in your FoM, but always keep a backup plan. Plus, you get the AoOs from CQF before you roll the grapple checks, even if you autowin the grapple checks. Extra damage never hurt anyone (well, except the poor sot trying to grab you).