Monks... any good?

[Dode]

Well I for one am anxious to hear the translation from the secret optimizer's tongue to layman's terms.

[Talic]

{Scrubbed}

All you've managed to do so far is to refer to a couple well known fighter builds on the CO.

"PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN! FOR I AM THE GREAT AND POWERFUL... wizard of Oz."

Why is it your statement reminds me of this one?

[Nebo_]

{Scrubbed}

All you've managed to do so far is to refer to a couple well known fighter builds on the CO.

You are speaking to one of the very best optimisers there is. You have given nothing, nothing, not even the smallest inkling that you have even a fraction of Reel On, Love's skill with optimisation.

Stop with the insults. Stop with the unbacked claims. Either bring something to the conversation, or get out. Simple as that. I'm sure everyone will agree with me.

[Solo]

You are speaking to one of the very best optimisers there is. You have given nothing, nothing, not even the smallest inkling that you have even a fraction of Reel On, Love's skill with optimisation.

Stop with the insults. Stop with the unbacked claims. Either bring something to the conversation, or get out. Simple as that. I'm sure everyone will agree with me.

If he has insulted someone, point it out to me and I'll report it to the mods.

[JBento]

{Scrubbed}

All you've managed to do so far is to refer to a couple well known fighter builds on the CO.


It strikes me that, if YOU were actually good in optimisation, you would've known that what classes are used - and that Monk isn't one of them :smallamused:

[Nebo_]

If he has insulted someone, point it out to me and I'll report it to the mods.

A few pages back he blatantly called a few posters noobs and was extremely rude. I've already reported them, but I'll point out the exact posts, if you want.

[Illiterate Scribe]

C'mon everybody, let's not retaliate with the personal attacks; let's just acknowledge that we are terrible optimisers, assume good faith and allow Emerald to explain his build of POWAR! to us.

[Solo]

A few pages back he blatantly called a few posters noobs and was extremely rude. I've already reported them, but I'll point out the exact posts, if you want.

Hmm... I believe I know what you are talking about. Thanks.

[Freelance Henchman]

(EDIT: deleted not very helpful (and troll-ish) comment)

[The Rose Dragon]

*Sigh*

1. UMD is cross class. The monk has to spend a lot of resources to get it to a useable state.
2. In 3.0, you couldn't even put ranks into cross class skills. Consider that and its implications.

Just for the sake of fairness, in 3.0, you could put ranks into cross-class skills.

Now, the trick is, UMD was exclusive to rogues and bards. Meaning no one else could put ranks into it other than them. And like all class exclusive skills (Animal Empathy, Read Lips, Decipher Script, etc.), with the exception of Scry, it was unusable untrained.

[Talic]

{Scrubbed}

All you've managed to do so far is to refer to a couple well known fighter builds on the CO.

Ok. Then. I'll admit it. I'm HORRIBLE at optimization. I don't know the first thing about it. I couldn't min/max my way out of a paper bag, and am certainly incapable of anything (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4050448&postcount=19) effective. Nothing at all.

Now that I've conceded that you're completely right, and that I'm a horrible horrible noob with no 1337 skillz whatsoever, could you please, PLEEEZE, pretty please, elaborate on what's used? Please?

Did I lay it on too thick here? heh

I mean, for those of us hopeless ignorant n00bs with no optimizing skillz, and only seek to learn from someone as great and skilled as you. Please. Do it for the noobs, if not for the fact that so far, everyone here thinks you know nothing of what you speak.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I roll a will save to disbelieve the sincerity Talic's post. :smallamused: Assuming 20 in his main casting stat, and taking into account his title/spell level (5), it's DC 20.

http://bestanimations.com/Games/Dice/Dice-05-june.gif


Curses, I failed. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4106115&postcount=1211)

[emeraldstreak]

It strikes me that, if YOU were actually good in optimisation, you would've known that what classes are used - and that Monk isn't one of them :smallamused:

Any class can be optimized, including Commoner.

[Nebo_]

Any class can be optimized, including Commoner.

And from that you will have an optimised Commoner. He's a cut above the rest of the commoners, but he's still not on the same level as anything else. You can optimise a monk, you can even make it cheesy, but is still isn't as good as something else that's optimised.

[JBento]

Indeed. But this thread isn't about "How can I make as an unsucky Monk as possible?" - it's about "Does the Monk suck compared to other classes?". The answer is, unfortuantely, yes

[emeraldstreak]

could you please, PLEEEZE, pretty please, elaborate on what's used? Please?

You asked so nicely :smallsmile:

As said, I'm focusing on barbarian - fighter - monk balance aspects.

It was my intention to post a gauntlet with challenges for these three classes, but I'm not sure when I'll have the time, certainly not this week.

Therefore, since you all are so eager to learn more about the issue, I can provide the following for you:

On the fighter-barbarian side of the argument, I'm not going to defend either class, if you feel like arguing that the barbarian or the fighter is stronger, make a thread here (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17).

For monk - fighter, read this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=923529). Obviously, there's a lot about monk strong/weak sides and their optimization/negation there.

I don't have a link for a thread focused on barbarian - monk balance, however everything about monks from the above thread is valid again.

[Solo]

Just for the sake of fairness, in 3.0, you could put ranks into cross-class skills.



I hear that you didn't get access to cross class in 3.0

Am I thinking of a previous edition?


OH, and emerald? Please respond to my last post regarding you.

[Illiterate Scribe]

So the pinnacle of your optimisation, that surpasses everything that we've just slavishly copied from the Charop boards ... is a D&D Fundamentals thread entitled 'Why are monks weak'. The first build that I found was a human, and had dwarf-only, and halfling-only, feats.

Bodes well.

Edit:Oh, OK, you pipe up on page 3. Still, nice proof by verbosity there.

Edit 2:Yep, the WotC boards are just as bad as we are. This 'gauntlet' to prove the point was promised there too.


Truth is truth, I say it whether it's insulting or not.

I happen to be the undefeated (and deservingly arrogant) champion of several DnD powerplay arenas; chances are noone on this thread is better qualified in the optimization of any class.

I'm also well acquainted with the ways of newbs and their commonplace mistakes and delusions about DnD 3.5.

Which makes me just about perfectly damn qualified to opinion on this kind of threads.


It's already been a torture to look at so much newbdom.


I believe you already feel I know more about powerplay than you, but you're afraid to admit it. It's OK. People are not perfect


Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you're a newb who doesn't understand what I'm talking about.



Meh. I get this and then people get upset when I call them noobs.



Nah. It's just that even newbs understand how to optimize STR and transfer BAB to power attack. Whereas noticing Monk's unusually high damage is an optimization boon outshining power attack requires a skilled player. It's all explained in my posts above, but seeing your other Pun-Pun comments, chances are you haven't read them (or you fail to comprehend them due to general lack of basic DnD skills, a condition also known as newbdom. If so kindly refrain from posting on balance issues threads in the future as your opinion contributes nothing).


I am an expert in optimizing and I don't apologize for that.


This guy means SRS BSNS.

Here is the awesome monk build -

12th level Human monk (25-point buy)

Str 22 (15, +3 level increase, +2 enhancement, +2 size increase)
Dex 14 (14, +2 enhancement, -2 size increase)
Con 16 (14, +2 enhancement)
Int 8
Wis 15 (13, +2 enhancement)
Cha 8



EQUIPMENT 87,110 gp

amulet of health +2
4,000

bracers of armor +2
4,000

gloves of dexterity +2
4,000

ring of force shield
8,500

ring of deflection +2
8,000

ioun stone of +1 insight to AC
5,000

ioun stone of +2 wisdom
8,000

ioun stone of +2 strength
8,000

cloak of resistance +1
1,000

monk's belt
13,000

boots of speed
12,000

Permanent Enlarge 10 (enlarge casting service cost) + 450 (base permanency casting service cost) + 2500 (experience cost) =
2,960

Permanent Greater Fang CL 20 (unarmed strike) = 600 + 550 + 7500 =
8,650




STATS (include the effects of boots of speed)

HP 92,5 (wholeness of body 24hp/day)

AC 24 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +3 monk, +2 armor, +2 shield, +2 deflection, +1 insight, +1 dodge)
touch AC 20
flatfooted 21

Fort +12 (immune to poison; immune to non-magical disease)
Reflex +14 (improved evasion)
Will +13 (+2 v. enchantment)

Initiative +6
Speed 70'(abundant step, slow fall 60')



unarmed hasted flurry +21/+21/+21/+21/+16
(+9 BAB, -1 size, +6 Str, +1 haste, +1 weapon focus, +5 enhancement)

magic lawful bludgeoning damage: 4d8+11 (av. 29) 19-20
(large 12th level monk (3d6) plus monk's belt (3d8) plus improved natural attack (4d8), +6 Str, +5 enhancement)

grapple +23 (+9 BAB, +4 size, +6 Str, +4 improved grapple)



Feats: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus:unarmed strike, Improved Natural Attack:unarmed strike, Iron Will, Improved Critical:unarmed strike
Bonus: Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip

Skills: enough to max out 4 skills; at least 5 ranks in Tumble
Skill Note: +16 speed bonus to Jump


Finally, I found this quote, which proves we're not alone:


And yeah, not even trying to play a monk but instead playing "UMD and consumables" is pretty pointless on a class balance thing.

[horseboy]

Oh, and citing sources isn't assuming that your opponent won't know it. It's to give credibility to your case by making your statements backed by concrete knowledge. It's why any solid debate requires it, any direct claim has it. If you have the information, it keeps everything moving faster, and allows for easier clarification, to show your proof.

It also shows that you're not lazy, and using insults to cover your lack of willingness to cite the source.And it also aids those of us that think having to spend hundreds of dollars on a system just to get it to function properly to be a sign of just how bad said system is.

And for consistency, I consider the "Trap finding" class ability to be a hackneyed and heavy handed contrivance to mandate the existence of the thief rogue class. Anyone with enough search should be able to see a trap.

Heck, why don't you just back up something? It can be anything, really. Any of your statements. Someone else's statement. A truck. Whatever.But not that ass. Sorry, gotta draw the line somewhere. :smallwink:
You are speaking to one of the very best optimisers there is. You have given nothing, nothing, not even the smallest inkling that you have even a fraction of Reel On, Love's skill with optimisation.Heck, I've not even seen anything from this guy that beats my feeble non-core 561 max hit points in one round monk. Actually, did he post a build and I miss it or what?

[Reel On, Love]

If you were actually good in optimization, you would've known what abilities and items were "insinuated".

All you've managed to do so far is to refer to a couple well known fighter builds on the CO.

So you can't back up what you're saying. Good to know.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Where I you Emerald I wouldn't link to a thread that further proves I'm full of crap and can't actually put up anything close to a defense of a Monk.

I mean, at least Giamoco's Monk even at the worst of times is useful at least 1/day. Often 2/3 times if he could actually manage to show that his excessive consumables can be accounted for as part of WBL.

But yeah, I'm thinking, hilarious Monk there. Can do almost nothing to most PCs, most Monsters and to top it off, has a about a 60% chance of being disabled by most any level appropriate spell.

[Telonius]

Equal in and out of core ...? Okay, let's have a look, core build, 25 point buy.

STR = 16
DEX = 13
CON = 10
INT = 10
WIS = 14
CHA = 8

Would you say that sounds like a pretty reasonable array for a Monk?

We have twin brothers, Frank and Morty, who have those same stats. Frank decides to be a fighter, and Morty decides to be a monk. They will put their ability bump scores into the exact same places. They will buy exactly the same equipment. The only difference between them will be feats and abilities granted from their classes.

Frank will get 19 feats in total by the end of his 20-level career. Morty will get to choose 8. Frank chooses the same feat as Morty does on every third level level-up. Frank uses four of his Fighter feats to get the Monk feats Morty chooses, so he still has seven more feats to choose from. He takes Weapon Focus (unarmed), GWF (unarmed), Weapon Specialization (unarmed), and Greater Weapon Specialization (unarmed). He still has three extra feats. Use two on Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes. One left: use wherever.

It's pretty reasonable that Morty will pick up a Monk's Belt, so Frank will probably have it too. At 20th level, here's what we'll have.

Frank has (not counting any items or stat bumps, which will be equal between the two):
20 (bab) + 2 (Wep focus/GWF) + 3 (str) = +25/+20/+15/+10
Damage:
d8 + 4 (wep spec/gws) + 3 (str) = d8+7. Average of 11.5 per hit.
AC: 10 + 1(dex) + 2 (wis) + 1 (monk) +1 (monk's belt) = 15
HP: 110 (average)

Morty has:
15 (bab) + 3 (str) = +18/+18/+18/+13/+8
Damage: 2d10+3. Average of 11 per hit.
(Note: Monk's unarmed damage does not increase in epic levels)
AC: 10 + 1(dex) + 2 (wis) + 4 (monk) +1 (monk's belt) = 18
HP: 90 (average)

Morty has the following advantages, in declining order of importance (imo):
+3 AC
Diamond Soul
Wholeness of Body (effectively +20 hp)
Improved Evasion
46 more skill points
Abundant Step
+4 Ref save.
+4 Will save.
+60 movement.
Slow fall
Magic, Lawful, and Adamantine unarmed strike
Other random abilities (i.e. tongue of sun and moon)
Proficiency in all Monk weapons.

Situational advantages:
More stunning fist attacks per day (if he selects that feat)
One extra attack

Frank has the following advantages:
+1 feat
+7 attack bonus. This is important not only for hitting enemies, but for using tactics (trip, grapple, disarm) that the Monk commonly uses.
+ 0.5 damage per hit. This gets higher if the fighter uses that extra feat on Power Attack (though the attack bonus will go down).
Proficient in armor/weapons

Please let me know if I've missed something or miscalculated.

So basically, a Fighter that's pretending to be a Monk is almost as good as a Monk in the Monk's role. The same cannot be said of a Monk pretending to be a Fighter.

[Ossian]

Hello folks.

First thing off, let me thank Sir Giacomo for the clarification back then (s.where around page 6). It cleared me the spirit of this 3d well enough. I come back after just a few days and LO! page 26. Well, all this passion can only be admired. If read from the oputside, the whole 3d gives quite a bit of food for though. That is, if one is not involved in arguments, there are many good ideas to pick up from both sides (well, there are possibly more than just 2 sides here...).

Now, if I may take advantage of your (wide plural) expertise in optimization and monk-wise, I´d like to add 2 hyperlinks to 2 monk ((sort of) characters) I have generated. The first one is the "disciple" (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=2842)

and the secondd is the "Master (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=3397)"

so to speak.

So, as a side issue to this thread, I´d very much appreciate thoughts, random comments and ideas on the 2 characters, and suggestions on how to develop the disciple. Bear in mind that


The math might not be perfect. It´s a pain in the side to stat 18 levels in 1 session, and some skill points might not match

I have used the Oriental Adventures

The power level: the "disciple", being 8th level and having the classes he has, is well into awesomeness in my campaign. 8th level is, to me, Bruce Lee as he was in the movies, the anime version of the Steve Seagal characters, whatever hyped movie hero you can think of. Thus, the Master (Selwyn) is somnething epic to divine. He is the White Lotus Pai Mei, the Yoda of this world (old Mystara, wrath of the immortals campaign). He´s a NPC of immense power and wisdom, and does not have to prove anything to anyone. He knows that an optimized and younger level equivalent fighter might be a better party member, but he won´t care, because he can do stuff with his hands that you can´t dream of. He´s martial arts incarnate. Still, there has to be a bigger fish somewhere, hence the level is 18 and not 20 or 30.

Hierax, the disciple, is a PC, and is still work in progress. We wanted to convert a 14th level monk (2nd edition) to a d20 character who basically own nothing and walks the planes (but he is NOT a planeswalker) seeking out the interferences of immortals in the lives of mortals and intervening as he might. His only posessions are an amulet that he uses to contact his "employer" (5 leagues above the hardest core immortals, like "1st generation deity" where Odin is already 3rd) and a sword that works pretty well against what is not native of the Prime Material, which he only draws against such creatures

He is 1 in a group of 4. Level 7 duskblade elf, level 7 human bard-wizard (1-6), level 7 human rogue fighter (5-2), all with well below WBL equipment (some potions, scrolls, 2 generic magic items each, and perhaps 1 magical weapon). Quite poor if one thinks how many times they saved the day.

I hate cheese. I am never going to allow the monk to use stuff like dimensional door only because the character prograssion says so. This is a low magic D&D, not the justice league. I´ll replace stuff like that with equivalent powers-bonus feats whenever the PC qualifies for them

The disciple can continue to gain levels in monk. The rule that once you multiclass you cannot advance in monk levels is just being ignored.

No spells. This player will never ever want to be able to cast spells (divine or arcane), to memorize or have them on scrolls. He just hates cheese even more than me and I sometimes have to force some things on him (like the kensai). He might accept special abilities and spell like abilities though...Still, he wants to be hardcore kung fu. So, no changes of size and as little equipment as possible.


So, long checklist is over. I´ll be checking on this 3d later on to see if someone had some feedback for me.Don´t be afraid to be rude! Be direct and to the point, as I have still much to learn in the way of rules, feats and number crunching!

Ossian

[Kurald Galain]

So basically, a Fighter that's pretending to be a Monk is almost as good as a Monk in the Monk's role. The same cannot be said of a Monk pretending to be a Fighter.

Excellent comparison.

Note how this fighter, despite having a very sub-optimal choice of feats, already outclasses the monk.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep it civil in here folks, and refer to the Forum Rules, if need be.

[Talic]

Excellent comparison.

Note how this fighter, despite having a very sub-optimal choice of feats, already outclasses the monk.

In all fairness, the monk's feats aren't that stellar either.

However, there's no reason for a fighter to invest in Wisdom. Those extra 6 should either go in Dex or Str, depending.

And I'm surprised. Usually the anti-monks get the first notification of impropriety. We've got a hotheaded pro-monk or two this time, rather than a frustrated crowd of those who think monk ain't all that.

[SamTheCleric]

I was actually thinking that the wis on the fighter should be switched to con (increasing the disparity in hit points) and he should invest in some armor. That would tip the scales significantly.

[Telonius]

In all fairness, the monk's feats aren't that stellar either.

However, there's no reason for a fighter to invest in Wisdom. Those extra 6 should either go in Dex or Str, depending.

You're right, they should, if the Fighter was trying to be a good fighter. He's not. He's trying to be a fake monk. The fighter is basically tying a hand behind his back, for equal comparison's sake. The only variable between Frank and Morty is the stuff granted by class, and the feat selection.

EDIT: Awhile back I posted another "fake monk" build. It's spoilered below. It's not quite as pared-down as the Frank and Morty builds, and miscounted the feat differential between fighter and Monk (monk ends up a little better off in the spoilered comparison).

Human Fighter, Strength-focused.
Feats:
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
1(Human): Stunning Fist
1(Fighter): Power Attack
2(Fighter): Improved Grapple
3: Deflect Arrows
4(Fighter): Improved Disarm
6: Combat Reflexes
6(Fighter): Improved Trip
8(Fighter): Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9: Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
10(Fighter): Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)

Morris will have exactly the same ability scores as a 20th-level Monk. Morris has all six of the monk's Bonus Feats, while the Monk can only have three of them. Fighter has 6 feats (4 fighter and 2 normal) left over between then and 20th level - the Monk only has 7 feats to begin with (8 if a human), so Morris can most likely take all of the same feats that the Monk does by level 20, minus one. He has an average of 20 more hit points than the monk by 20th level. He has a higher BAB, which means he can hit more often than an equivalent-level Monk. Morris Power Attacks for at least 3 every time; with his Weapon Specialization, this means he's hitting as hard as a 20th-level monk starting at 12th level. (Except his attack bonus is still 2 better than the monk). Morris can wear enchantable armor while fighting, which costs less than the Monk's Bracers; he has an AC almost equalling, if not exceeding, the Monk. He can use his enchanted Gauntlets without using a Feat to gain proficiency.

Monk, on the other hand, gets faster movement, a higher jump check, evasion, +2 vs enchantment, Slow Fall, immunity to diseases, ability to heal 2x monk level hp per day, immunity to poison, Dimension door 1/day, SR monk level + 10, Quivering Palm, no aging penalties, speaks with everything, etherealness (monk level) rounds per day, DR 10/magic, better Reflex and Will saves, one more feat than Morris, 2 more skill points per level (with a much better selection of class skills), and extra attacks from Flurry of Blows.

But several of the Monk's bonuses can be gained by magic items. The Fighter can afford these, since he's paying less for his armor. Ring of Feather Fall, Periapt of Health OR Periapt of Proof against Poison (can't have both on at once), widgets of Etherealness and Dimension Door 1/day.

So, Monk's advantages: Faster movement, a higher jump check, evasion, +2 vs enchantment, immunity to diseases OR poison, ability to heal 2x monk level hp per day, SR monk level + 10, Quivering Palm, no aging penalties, speaks with everything, DR 10/magic, better Reflex and Will saves, one more feat than Morris, 2 more skill points per level (with a much better selection of class skills), and extra attacks from Flurry of Blows.

[Talic]

You're right, they should, if the Fighter was trying to be a good fighter. He's not. He's trying to be a fake monk. The fighter is basically tying a hand behind his back, for equal comparison's sake. The only variable between Frank and Morty is the stuff granted by class, and the feat selection.

Then dex, to simulate the monk's wisdom bonus to dodge.

[emeraldstreak]

This guy means SRS BSNS.

Here is the awesome monk build -

12th level Human monk (25-point buy)

...



Seems you missed those

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13861561&postcount=191

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13861715&postcount=193


Back to the 12th level Human monk, he was built to refute the claim that fighters are better than monks in Core only. Once again, you missed to quote important parts of the discussion:

the fighter (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14194615&postcount=434)

the comparison (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14195113&postcount=436)

further discussion (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14200361&postcount=452)

[Telonius]

Not sure what the "Martial Stance" feats do, since I don't have the books. But assuming that a fighter can take it...

lvl 10 whisper gnome fighter

point buy 25
str 10 (4) -2r
dex 22 (10) +2r 4th 8th gloves +2
con 15 (5) +2r
int 8
wis 14 (6)
cha 6 -2r
feats:
1st: martial study (counter charge)
3rd: weapon finesse
6th: superior unarmed damage
9th: improved natural attack

bonus feats:
combat reflexes, plus five others.

skills:
tumble (cross-class)

Equipment

Monk's belt = 13000 gp
gloves of dex +2 = 4000 gp
chronocharm of the horizon walker = 500 gp
greatreach bracers = 2000 gp

Custom item: Greater Mighty Wallop 1/day CL 20 (SL 3 * CL 20 * 1800)/5 = 21600 gp
Custom item: Mage Armor 1/day CL 20 (SL 1 * CL 20 * 1800)/5 = 7200 gp

48 300 / 49 000

hp 75
AC 24 (size 1, dex 6, wis 2, monk 1, mage armor 4)

[AmberVael]

So... your entire strength is based around using a custom made magic item that once per day casts a spell from a splat book?
Does that seem wrong to anyone else?

[emeraldstreak]

So... your entire strength is based around using a custom made magic item that once per day casts a spell from a splat book?
Does that seem wrong to anyone else?

Anyone can use an item for Wallop.

Fighters and Barbarians using this item can boost their bludgeoning weapon damage.

Monks however get a lot more out of the spell, because their base damage is 2d10 (and as demonstrated, can be achieved much earlier than level 20)

This is a class advantage of monks over fighters/barbarians.

[AmberVael]

Anyone can use an item for Wallop.
Yes, assuming the DM 1) Allows Races of the Dragon (not too unlikely) and then 2) allows you to make a custom magic like that. I'm a little doubtful, myself.


Monks however get a lot more out of the spell, because their base damage is 2d10 (and as demonstrated, can be achieved much earlier than level 20)

This is a class advantage of monks over fighters/barbarians.

Typically, base damage weapon damage is one of the worst things to improve. Besides, what with jumping all across books like that and assuming certain key points (IE, creation of a custom magic item by the guidelines set out in the DMG) One could quite easily make a fighter that deals more damage than your little monk.

[Telonius]

One could quite easily make a fighter that deals more damage than your little monk.

... such as the fighter I posted above. Just add Power Attack, and switch the gloves of dex to gauntlets of ogre power. You'll still have a higher attack bonus, and more damage on a hit.

[emeraldstreak]

Yes, assuming the DM 1) Allows Races of the Dragon (not too unlikely) and then 2) allows you to make a custom magic like that. I'm a little doubtful, myself.

Hence, when the DM allows RotD and custom magic items, monks have a class advantage over fighters/barbarians in damage dice.




Typically, base damage weapon damage is one of the worst things to improve.


True.

Monk damage die is rare exception.

Perhaps a myth can be rooted in the masses overlooking a specific exception to a general rule?

[emeraldstreak]

... such as the fighter I posted above. Just add Power Attack, and switch the gloves of dex to gauntlets of ogre power. You'll still have a higher attack bonus, and more damage on a hit.

Go ahead. Complete the build and post it.

[Reel On, Love]

Anyone can use an item for Wallop.

Fighters and Barbarians using this item can boost their bludgeoning weapon damage.

Monks however get a lot more out of the spell, because their base damage is 2d10 (and as demonstrated, can be achieved much earlier than level 20)

This is a class advantage of monks over fighters/barbarians.

This class advantage involves using a custom item (read: not going to be allowed, and if it is then we get into items of continuous Wraithstrike) of a spell from an uncommon splat. Wooooooooo. Man, monks are so impressive.

[Solo]

Emerald, nice to see you still posting. If you'll notice on page 25, at the bottom, I have a post directed at you, with some questions I'd like answered. Could you please answer them?

Thank you.

[emeraldstreak]

This class advantage involves using a custom item (read: not going to be allowed

Why?



, and if it is then we get into items of continuous Wraithstrike) of a spell from an uncommon splat. Wooooooooo. Man, monks are so impressive.

Or continuous Wraithstrike and continuous Divine Power perhaps?


The Greater Wallop item is 1/day 3rd level spell. Comparing it to continuous items is not particularly fair.

A bit more (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13878077&postcount=241) about DMs (dis)allowing custom magic items for monks.

[Telonius]

Go ahead. Complete the build and post it.

I believe you already did. The build is identical to yours, with the following exceptions:

1. It is a fighter.
2. It has a higher HP total.
3. It has a lower AC.
4. It has a lower skill selection.
5. It uses its Fighter Feats to select the Monk Feats your build selects.

If your build is valid, so is the build above.

[Solo]

I'm sorry, emerald. It has occurred to me that it is unfair to ask you to go digging around for my post with the questions directed towards you.

Doing this places more work upon you, and decreases the likelihood of me receiving a reply.

I hope to offer my amends by providing you my post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4105855&postcount=750), so that you may go there directly and easily, so as to answer my questions.

[emeraldstreak]

I believe you already did. The build is identical to yours, with the following exceptions:

1. It is a fighter.
2. It has a higher HP total.
3. It has a lower AC.
4. It has a lower skill selection.

If your build is valid, so is the build above.

let me add

5. It has much lower saves
6. It lacks improved evasion and other class abilities

But the real question is, what is your attack and damage. Would you be so kind to provide them?

[Talic]

Let's go outside of core then, shall we? 32 point build, noncore parts have *:

Fighter 8 (Water* Orc)/Barbarian 2 (Wolf Totem*)

Str: 22
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 6
Wis: 10
Cha: 6

Flaws*: Murky Eyed, Shaky.

Feats:
Level 1: Aberrant Heritage*, Willing Deformity*, Inhuman reach*, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Spiked Chain.
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
Level 3: Deformity: Tall *(Barb 1, Rage, Fast movement)
Level 4: (Barb 2) Improved Trip*. (from wolf totem)
Level 5: (Fighter 3)
Level 6: (Fighter 4) Combat Reflexes, Dodge
Level 7: (Fighter 5)
Level 8: Mobility
Level 9: Spring Attack
Level 10: Stand Still*

At level 12, pick up bounding assault*, and Robilar's gambit*

Now, Assume Adamantine spiked chain +1, A few potions of enlarge person, gloves of dex +2, belt of str +4, and off we go with minimal items (this could be easily further broken, I believe my record was 80 foot reach at level 7)

40 foot reach, good attack boosts, mobile attacks, and combat control. If you need to, you can keep people in place. If they're not massive beasts, you can trip/followup. Combat control, pure and simple, and wise use of actions will stop almost anything from closing. Now, instead of looking for one opportunity... you take them all. Opportunistic fighter has been outdone.

[Vortling]

A bit more (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13878077&postcount=241) about DMs (dis)allowing custom magic items for monks.
About that. While house ruling can create balance, that isn't what people are arguing. Heck if you want to include house rules you can make wizards balanced.

Also I've put up a monk build on page 22.

[Talic]

let me add

5. It has much lower saves
6. It lacks improved evasion and other class abilities

But the real question is, what is your attack and damage. Would you be so kind to provide them?

Improved evasion is a trap. Reflex saves are, by far, the weakest effects in the game. For every time the monk's imp evasion will help it (good saves, remember? ain't failing many), Fighter will simply HIT the enemy.

Saves are easily stalled by protective effects. Death ward being the biggest.

[SamTheCleric]

I'm sorry, I haven't been paying 100% attention to this thread... has Emerald posted a build yet?

[Reel On, Love]

Why?
Because the custom item guidelines are really, really bad. They lead to things like plentiful Insight and Divine bonuses to AC, continuous Wraithstrike, etc.



The Greater Wallop item is 1/day 3rd level spell. Comparing it to continuous items is not particularly fair.

A bit more (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13878077&postcount=241) about DMs (dis)allowing custom magic items for monks.
Comparing it to other custom items is perfectly fair. It's 1/day 'cause it only needs to be 1/day, not out of fairness concerns.

Your "bit more" basically argues that monks need custom items because they're at a disadvantage--read, weaker--otherwise. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Monks deserve custom items because they're weaker, but it's only fair for them to have them, so they're not weaker? However you cut it, basing an argument off of custom items for monks only is NOT valid.

[Solo]

Because the custom item guidelines are really, really bad. They lead to things like plentiful Insight and Divine bonuses to AC, continuous Wraithstrike, etc.


Continuous item of True Strike ftw!

[Reel On, Love]

Continuous item of True Strike ftw!

Use-activated. If it's continuous, then the spell lasts forever... until you make an attack. Then it's gone.

[Telonius]

Feats, assuming all are applicable to a Fighter (again, I don't own all the books in question and am posting this from work):

One other minor modification: move 1 ability score from Con to Str, to allow Power Attack. Put another ability point somewhere, in the lower scores. Maybe Cha.

1st: martial study (counter charge)
1st: Imp Unarmed Strike
2nd: Weapon Focus (unarmed)
3rd: weapon finesse
4th: (replicate Monk bonus feat)
6th: superior unarmed damage
6th: (replicate Monk bonus feat)
8th: Weapon Specialization (unarmed)
9th: improved natural attack
10th: Power Attack

To hit:
10 (BAB) + 5 (dex) + 1 (size) +1 (focus) - 1 (PowerAttack).

Damage
Base: d6 (monk's belt) + 1 (str) + 1 (Power Attack) +2 (spec)
Superior Unarmed Strike (don't own the book, please correct if this is wrong): Advance two damage steps, to d10
6 size increases (GrMtyWallop +5, Imp Natural+1), to 8d6 damage. (Damage maxes out at Colossal - you could probably bump down the CL of GMW to save some cash).

So, +16/+11, 8d6+4.

[Talic]

Use-activated. If it's continuous, then the spell lasts forever... until you make an attack. Then it's gone.

Composite Haste Longbow of Truestriking +1

Full attack gives you an extra attack at highest bonus, all attacks at +21 to hit, ignore concealment?

Oversized Mercurial Greatsword of haste and truestriking +1?

A butt load of damage, have fun with power attack.

Wraithstrike, Truestrike, Shattering Greatsword +1?

Hits anything easy, breaks it good.

[AmberVael]

Furthermore, this doesn't even prove that monks are better. It proves that you could, conceivably, using cheese and extreme powergame methods, make a monk that was twinked.
Granted, using the same kind of methods I could make a fighter that was more twinked.
IE:

Lvl 12 Fighter Dragonborn Water Orc
Str: 22 +6 (belt of strength)
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 6
Wis: 12
Cha: 6

I'm not even going to bother making the most out of all these feats, I'll just take the ones that I need and leave it there...

1 Power Attack
1 Weapon focus (Spear)
2 Quickdraw
3 Blind Fight
4 Cleave
6 Leap Attack
6 Weapon Specialization
8 Greater Weapon Focus
10 Improved Initiative
12 Item Familiar
12 Greater Weapon Specialization

Bracers of Psionic Lion's Charge at Will (14,400- this is the item familiar)
Belt of Giant's Strength +6 (36,000)
+1 longspear (2,000)
Intelligent Mask of Precognition, Offensive, at Will (as 16th manifester. 29,800)
Crystal of Energy Assault, Lesser

So, on a charge, this happens:
Intelligent items can activate their powers of their own accord, so they use lion's charge and precognition on our guy. He then jumps into the air, dives down and deals the following damage:
+12+2(charge)+9(strength)+1(weapon)+2(WF)+6 (Precognition) = 32
He'll take a -12 for power attack, putting him him at +20/+15/+10
2d4+1(long spear)+24 (power attack)+13(strength)+4(WS)+1d6 (energy assault crystal)
50.5 damage average However, this is headlong rush, so x2. It's also being done by a flying dragonborn doing a dive attack with a piercing weapon, which multiplies it again. x3.
151.5 damage from each attack that hits.

And that is with a build I threw together in a couple of seconds with some extremely unoptimized feat choices. If you gave me more time, I could show you things that would make you cry.

[Arbitrarity]

Wait, if we include non-core in balance concerns... oh right, he specified fighter and barbarian.

Well, there's the good old gambit/shock trooper/leap attack/karmic strike style build.
If a fighter had enough feats, he could abuse Stormguard warrior (4 feats? Ick.). He'd also probably be able to get Iron Heart surge if he wanted, though.

Stormguard warrior + Shock Trooper + Karmic Strike + Robilar's Gambit + leap attack = pain. However, at 11 feats, you can't get the entire chain until level 12, and you only have 1 feat left then. If you're a human, you could grab mobility and elusive target, which would be pretty awesome.

At that point, you:
Get 2 AOO's every time you get attacked and hit. (!)
Can use leap attack/shock trooper for +36 damage. (!)
Can abuse stormguard warrior for every attack your opponent hits you with resulting in +8 to hit/damage. (!!!)
Can evade power attack, and cause flankers to stab allies.
Can make touch attacks to add damage to attacks next round.
Possibly get Iron Heart Surge (Removes one thing affecting him. AMF? No problem) and Punishing Stance (AC? Who needs that?), along with Wall of Blades (in case he needs AC).
You may wish to dip a level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for more shock trooper abuse. Alternatively,
Bracers of Psionic Lion's Charge at Will (14,400) is useful. So would ring of Expansion. (29K for huge, at all times?) Stats? I can set them up if necessary.
Pain? Yes.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Continuous item of True Strike ftw!

Solo - you forget the, oh, 200,000 gp approx. wonder that is the widget of use activated-when-you-breath timestop.

By giving this to a Complete Warrior Samurai, together with a UMD'd item of explosive runes at will and dispel magic at will, I can conclusively prove that the class is balanced, possibly even more powerful, than other core non-caster classes.

As the undisputed master of optimisation, inventor of Pun-Pun, the Cheater of Mystra, and the Hulking Hurler, I'd expect myself to come up with this stuff - unlike you newbs at optimisation.

[lord_khaine]

And we're saying that those numbers are skewed high.

then go out and say that instead of misquoting me.


Hm. 15 damage vs 50? trip - fail, stun - fail, vs most CR appropriate foes. Large size, multi legs, and high forts are hallmarks of higher CR encounters
well a monk would usualy do a lot more damage on a full attack, unless it happens he is competing in damage against someone with a magic weapon, without having that advantage himself.

most things with 2 leggs can be trippet, if they dont have to many hd and are alive, then stun is a option, and when all those fail, there are still a chance of grapple.

that aside, when considering the role of frontliner, then it dont matter how much damage you do, since smarter monsters will allways go for the casters behind, and stupid monsters will attack the closest thing.

in those cases a good defence is a lot more important than a additional 5-10 points of damage.


Ref saves rarely impact ability to hit things when failed, and at mid/high levels, most groups are well defended against most of the standard will saves.

well you cant hit anything when you have been burned to ash, and its my experience you dont get a proper defence against thing that hits willsave before the very high levels, where fx you can get mindblank.


Setting it up isn't that hard, I hear flanking works wonders. Some opponents are immune to it, and those foes are generally immune to Stunning fist also, so I'd say it balances
yes but immune to stunning doesnt hit monks nearly as hard as immune to sneak attack hits rogues.


Which is why they can pull off sneak attack at range, luckily for them. Can monks use stunning fist at range?
Oh right.

sneak attack at range is a lot harder to pull off, since you suddenly cant relly on flanking anymore.
i cant see the idea behind the sudden focus on stunning attacks, since they are not nearly as important for a monk as sneak attack is for a rogue.


Acquire thee that holy book dubbed On the Origin of PCs, and read intently the words of Belkar Bitterleaf, moral-less ranger, that they may enlighten you.

im honestly not going to take Belkars oppinion as worth anything at all in that regard.

[Solo]

well you cant hit anything when you have been burned to ash, and its my experience

Direct Damage is a little sub-par against people with lots of HP



you dont get a proper defence against thing that hits willsave before the very high levels, where fx you can get mindblank.

Repeat after me:

Protection from Alignment

[lord_khaine]

Direct Damage is a little sub-par against people with lots of HP
and if your defences are bad enough you may quickly find that you will need a lot of hp.


Repeat after me:

Protection from Alignment

protection from aligment, now can you repeat after me, fear, confusion, charms, hypnotism, color spray, sleep, glitterdust, hold person?

[Solo]

protection from aligment, now can you repeat after me, fear, confusion, charms, hypnotism, color spray, sleep, glitterdust, hold person?


the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

Most of the things you listed are enchantments, which are countered by Protection from Evil, unless I am mistaken?

Not perfect, but neither is Mindblank, asit will allow Glitterdust and Slow get past it.

[Rutee]

I do believe you are incorrect, Solo.


the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

[Reel On, Love]

I do believe you are incorrect, Solo.

Baby, you just read my mind.

[Solo]

Right. But charms and compulsions are right out.

[Da Beast]

Seriously, it's a shame that half a dozen races don't need to breath, a couple can be built to never need to eat or drink, but none are poopless.

Does this mean that an Elan can generate infinite matter out of nothing?

[Rutee]

Right. But charms and compulsions are right out.

I'm unsure. Looking at the wording of it, it'd be a Charm that grants /control/. Except Charms by definition don't grant /control/, so that would be contradictory...

[streakster]

Seriously, it's a shame that half a dozen races don't need to breath, a couple can be built to never need to eat or drink, but none are poopless.

Warforged, anyone? Or do they leave clinkers?

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi again eveyone,

Once more, my friends, once more...(truly, only ONCE more)...

On Telonius' idea of comparing figher and monk in core (similar analytical approach to what I did further up with rogue-ranger-monk) - see spoiler.


Equal in and out of core ...? Okay, let's have a look, core build, 25 point buy.

STR = 16
DEX = 13
CON = 10
INT = 10
WIS = 14
CHA = 8

Would you say that sounds like a pretty reasonable array for a Monk?

We have twin brothers, Frank and Morty, who have those same stats. Frank decides to be a fighter, and Morty decides to be a monk. They will put their ability bump scores into the exact same places. They will buy exactly the same equipment. The only difference between them will be feats and abilities granted from their classes.

Frank will get 19 feats in total by the end of his 20-level career. Morty will get to choose 8. Frank chooses the same feat as Morty does on every third level level-up. Frank uses four of his Fighter feats to get the Monk feats Morty chooses, so he still has seven more feats to choose from. He takes Weapon Focus (unarmed), GWF (unarmed), Weapon Specialization (unarmed), and Greater Weapon Specialization (unarmed). He still has three extra feats. Use two on Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes. One left: use wherever.

It's pretty reasonable that Morty will pick up a Monk's Belt, so Frank will probably have it too. At 20th level, here's what we'll have.

Frank has (not counting any items or stat bumps, which will be equal between the two):
20 (bab) + 2 (Wep focus/GWF) + 3 (str) = +25/+20/+15/+10
Damage:
d8 + 4 (wep spec/gws) + 3 (str) = d8+7. Average of 11.5 per hit.
AC: 10 + 1(dex) + 2 (wis) + 1 (monk) +1 (monk's belt) = 15
HP: 110 (average)

Morty has:
15 (bab) + 3 (str) = +18/+18/+18/+13/+8
Damage: 2d10+3. Average of 11 per hit.
(Note: Monk's unarmed damage does not increase in epic levels)
AC: 10 + 1(dex) + 2 (wis) + 4 (monk) +1 (monk's belt) = 18
HP: 90 (average)

Morty has the following advantages, in declining order of importance (imo):
+3 AC
Diamond Soul
Wholeness of Body (effectively +20 hp)
Improved Evasion
46 more skill points
Abundant Step
+4 Ref save.
+4 Will save.
+60 movement.
Slow fall
Magic, Lawful, and Adamantine unarmed strike
Other random abilities (i.e. tongue of sun and moon)
Proficiency in all Monk weapons.

Situational advantages:
More stunning fist attacks per day (if he selects that feat)
One extra attack

Frank has the following advantages:
+1 feat
+7 attack bonus. This is important not only for hitting enemies, but for using tactics (trip, grapple, disarm) that the Monk commonly uses.
+ 0.5 damage per hit. This gets higher if the fighter uses that extra feat on Power Attack (though the attack bonus will go down).
Proficient in armor/weapons

Please let me know if I've missed something or miscalculated.

No, this is a great comparison! You threw together in a bit neglecting way the powerful or useful abilities of perfect self and etheralness and no penalties to ageing under "random abilities", but for the first 16 levels they do not matter. And the AC is better by 1 for the monk due to the monk's belt (only the AC bonus improves in epic levels).#
The only thing I disagree with is the conclusion...


So basically, a Fighter that's pretending to be a Monk is almost as good as a Monk in the Monk's role. The same cannot be said of a Monk pretending to be a Fighter.

The fighter trying to emulate the monk is vastly inferior. Example in point (obvious from all the many posts I already gave) is that the monk can use his skill point advantage to get UMD (divine power equaling the BAB, equaling then the disadvantage for grapple/trip, netting another extra attack and thus in full attack getting more damage), tumbling to aid his movement in unarmed combat (getting +1 AC when fighting devensively), and spot/listen for less risk of being surprised.
Even if (which I showed is not true) the fighter were able to equal the monk in the fighting prowess, the monk has so many other abilities and better saves, SR and defenses that the fighter player would be really disappointed for having chosen this route for his fighter.

Now, the other way round is also a problem for the monk. He COULD take exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain, take the key combat reflexes and improved trip bonus feats and thus be on the path to good melee battlefield control. However, in missile attack inferiority it becomes clear that the monk can never emulate the weapon mastery of the fighter.



Now on to the important stuff:

I have a dream…where an iconic group of Batman, CoDzilla, Solorcerer and Giamonk do adventures in harmony…:smallcool:

…back to reality::smallwink:

A different approach, in order to take the heat out of this and future debates:
I will no longer maintain that there is balance between the classes, be it within or outside the core rules. It leads nowhere.

Neither will I continue to argue whether a monk or fighter or other non-casting class is balanced or not.
If someone starts a "x sucks thread" and I happen to have a different opinion, I'll merely suggest ideas that could make that class work better already within the existing rules - while not concluding that it would get more balanced from my suggestions.
If someone discusses why "y class is overpowered", I'll advocate advice how within the existing rules the overpoweredness can be counterbalanced, without actually suggesting that that class could still be overpowered. Concerning individual rules (e.g. candles of xy, morphing) considered broken, I'll not put into question the brokenness, but merely suggest rules that could mitigate any brokenness.

Hopefully this will improve the discussions.

- Giacomo

PS: yes, that monk build is still forthcoming
PPS: one last feeble kick :smallbiggrin: Reel On, Love: imo control wind spell does exactly that. You control winds, you do not create them. The duel took place in a cube without wind. Wind created by elementals only last some rounds.

[Funkyodor]

Has there ever been a Poll on the subject? It would be very simple.

Do monks suck?

They Rock the Casbah baby!
Meh, they're about as good as any other 3/4 BaB Melee'er...
Huh? Let me blow the dust off my character sheet for Sir Oliver Sucksalot. Yeah, that Monk Sucks!


[BREATHE]
Hopefully any further threads can be quickly spammed with links to this all encompassing and averaging poll that everyone might finally agree to disagree on this overly talked about and apparently heated subject.
[/GASP]

Now to get back to the OP question... I feel the monk is best played by an experienced player who doesn't care about doing damage, and is confident that his assistance might not be needed by everyone else. He can then have fun with player and character interaction, and not worry about trying to "Win the Game" by doing obscene amounts of damage and have 3 levels in 6 different classes to fully twink out a Full BaB Wild Shaping Full Caster Level Character of Super Special Awesomeness! (FBaBWSFCLCSSA, you're not Uber-Leet till you can say it 3 times real fast!)

If you have a player who wants to play a Monk, then try and get him to team up with another player and assist him, by giving flank bonuses, sneaking with the Rogue, Diplomacy assistance with a Bard, um... I got nothing to assist a Wizard with... Ah-Ha! Get him to dress up more Wizardly than the Wizard so intelligent ambushes/encounters might target him first and spare the Wizard from potental anguish, always good to be on the Wizards good side. By helping everyone else out he will feel better and hopefully focus on one aspect more and more.

[Reel On, Love]

If someone discusses why "y class is overpowered", I'll advocate advice how within the existing rules the overpoweredness can be counterbalanced, without actually suggesting that that class could still be overpowered. Concerning individual rules (e.g. candles of xy, morphing) considered broken, I'll not put into question the brokenness, but merely suggest rules that could mitigate any brokenness.

Hopefully this will improve the discussions.
Suggesting "polymorph" or "candle of invocation" as an answer to how to deal with anything is pointless and wrongheaded.

Applying Polymorph or Candle of Invocation as a fix doesn't work, since it simply breaks the *whole game* rather than making you deal with an overpowreed class.


PPS: one last feeble kick :smallbiggrin: Reel On, Love: imo control wind spell does exactly that. You control winds, you do not create them. The duel took place in a cube without wind. Wind created by elementals only last some rounds.
Cripes, would you at least go by what the spell SAYS, rather than by what you think it should do?! Even if the air in the arena were absolutely still, despite people moving and talking, a wind speed of 0 MPH is still a "light wind" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds). Trying to argue that I couldn't use Control Winds because there's no wind in the arena is completely disingenuous, given that the spell is supposed to stir winds up out of nothing as well as make them worse... and especially since in any game, the spell is perfectly usable.

[Kurald Galain]

Has there ever been a Poll on the subject? It would be very simple.

As a matter of fact, yes, and the outcome was indeed that monks suck.

{table]class|rating
wizard|9.67
druid|9.38
cleric|9.16
sorcerer |8.20
rogue |5.62
bard |5.45
barbarian |4.99
ranger |4.94
paladin |4.22
fighter |3.88
adept |3.60
monk |3.51
commoner |0.60
[/table]

This is summarized from a big poll at the WOTC forums.

[Frosty]

Wait, the FIGHTER beat out the Adept?

[AmberVael]

Wait, the FIGHTER beat out the Adept?

It's likely that the adept lost because it is an NPC class and there's a bit of bias around it because of that.

[Sir Giacomo]

Now...having said that I would make no more reference to balance, I shall still try to correct rules misperceptions when I see them.

Unfortunately, Reel On, Love's post is full of it again.


It IS a myth. "Unarmed combat"? Man, who CARES. The rogue gets tons of sneak attacks (and so much AC he doesn't care about being in melee anymore).

The rogue gains LESS AC than a monk since most forms he morphs into that COULD enhance his combat big time have lower DEX than high-level rogues. Ah, and he loses his mithral breastplate +x.
The rogue gains LESS sneak attacks in case he shapes into bigger forms, since he can hide less well.
So he should actually take SMALLER forms, like a pixie. And here, the natural AC is not so great.


The Fighter gains huge size, strength, and reach: all he needs to do is carry around a Huge guisarme/chain. Suddenly, he locks down all opponents while doing enormous damage.

The monk can do the same by getting the feat: exotic weapon proficiency- spiked chain. But he'll not since in core, the idea to do tripping control ends once the opponent has tumble. And the fighter's damage base dice do not scale AS MUCH* with the larger form, the monk's do.


The Barbarian is *even stronger*, and again, no longer cares about his AC.

You'll have to net quite a high natural AC bonus to equate what you lose from the mitrhral full plate +x, and also get quite a lot higher STR to make up for the reduced use of your weapon. Otherwise, the barbarian ends a close second after the monk due to his rage.


The Cleric, even, still casts Divine Power, Righteous Might, etc. *on top of* the Polymorph form.

And loses his full plate +x protection while doing it. The greatest AC loser of all (remember, bigger size nets you AC penalties). Ah, and he, like all spellcasters, is limited in the forms to choose or can no longer cast (the wild casting of the druid is not considered a great feat for no reason, you know).


So stop spreading the myth. Yes, the monk benefits a lot. Everyone does.

Stop denying the truth. The monk benefits more than all other classes. ALL his class abiliities are still usable in the new form (well, often not the monk weapons...). And certainly not "everyone" sees polymorph as being more useful to other classes than for the monk.


Actually, running out of air elementals isn't a problem. I summon 1d4+1 of them, and they Whirlwind one at a time. I can also extend the 1-round...

Which in the few rounds that the whirlwind is up (and note that you run out of highest-level spells quite quickly this way), the monk had the mirror images for defense and waiting the elementals out (remember, that monk with the strange skill choices also had spellcraft, so she knew exactly what was going on).


...Oh, and then there's Control Winds. That was coming up when buffing finished. Care to read what that does?

As I mentioned above, it controls winds, but does not create them.


Save-or-dies were a problem. What was your Fort save, again? Oh, yeah, +11. What was my Baleful Polymorph DC? 23? 24? Something like that. Ooh, looks like that's a 50%+ chance to turn you into a squirrel.

Mirror image luckily reduced that to, what, a 10-12.5% chance? But in the odd chance the monk would have turned into a squirrel, it would have neccessitated a will save to see whether he lost his mind with it. If not, the monk would have been able to still use his monk combat abilities in squirrel form, including stun :smallsmile: At 17th level, he would even have been able to speak with himself...!


You can activate one wand a round. A Dispel strips *all* your buffs (and the companion can actually strip your images just by attacks). I had more than one dispel. What do you do when you have no concealment and is dispelled?

You can only dispel once per round. Given the number of buffs the monk had on, you would have dispelled most, but not all. And to even get the dispel working on all, and not only one (area dispel), you would have had to hit the real monk. Unlikely (as in, only 25% chance) with the mirror image up.
While the AC lazily yawned in a corner (hide from animals), the monk would have simply put up on her turn a mirror image again. Guess who would have run out of dispel magics earlier...:smallwink:
Ah, and when did you wish to dispel, while you were busy doing control winds, air elementals and trying to make the ac do something it dit not see any use in doing (summoning is full-round action, the handle animal in this case a move action).


Are you freaking kidding me? +4 vs. +13 natural AC is no big deal?
Yes, Polymorph DOES offer better movement types and speed, higher AC, higher STR/DEX/CON, bigger size, more attacks, bigger reach, and more special attacks. That's pretty much EVERYTHING. Believe me, there are no animal forms that compare to what you can get via Polymorph. Polymorph can do *anything*, and gives much bigger bonuses. On top of that, it doesn't absorb your gear! Wild Shape is a bit behind.

Morph absorbs your gear that you cannot use, which is practically everything (read alter self), the weapons in your hand get less useful.
Polymorph IS stronger - and it should be, since it lasts so much shorter.


Again, the Wild Shape ranger isn't overpowered in any way. Meanwhile, a Druid *without* Wild Shape would still be very powerful.

Will not comment on that.


I've gone over this. Druids are very overpowered. Wild Shape is NOT what makes them overpowered--it's the combination of Wild Shape with an animal companion, Natural Spell, and spellcasting. Nobody's saying druids are "OK", but Wild Shape is definitely not in Polymorph's league. As witness:
-Wild Shape does not make CR-appropriate encounters a cakewalk. Polymorph inevitably does (if melee is a threat at all).
-A Warrior with Wild Shape at will could not make a viable party member. A Warrior with Polymorph at will is better than any core melee build. (Do you see the difference there?)

Will also not comment on that. Only this: a lycanthrope weretiger fighter of 10th level has a LA +3 plus 6 HD, and thus only 1 level of fighter. THAT is how powerful the system believes the ability to change into a large creature with pounce is (abstracting for a moment from the special qualities of a lycanthrope).


I've explained over and over how Polymorph is broken. The simplest demonstration is that IT MAKES CR-APPROPRIATE ENCOUNTERS TRIVIAL.

Isn't this what is also often said about the same level spells: solid fog and black tentacles, plus dimension door (the latter is a class ability of the monk btw)? You will see noone arguing they're broken, simply how "great" they are (and all wizards/sorcerers take them). But again, no more comments of mine on what is broken and what not.


The bottle isn't "broken", it's just totally unfeasible in a real game. Your party has to build around this item, or it hurts more than it helps. It only works in solo duels.

This is repeated again and again, as if my explanation on its great tactical advantages for a group through the bottle would have never existed.
That is tiring.
Once again:
When a party runs around in an adventure and gets surprised by the opponent (it MAY happen once in a while you know), the ability to all of a sudden cloak all movement and prevent enemy missiles and spellcasting in 100ft diameter in 1 round is GREAT. When you optimse the group for that tactics, it's even better.
But when the group uses the bottle actively for attacking tactics, the bottle is AWESOME.
And it's not that the monk should have it in his equipment - everyone could make use of it. Arguably, though, it's not as good for spellcasters to use regularly (although it may be worthwhile to look into it, for instance the summon swarm tactics that Solo advocated could help).
In solo play, the monk makes best use of the bottle, since he has the highest movement, listen, move silently and the largest number of attacks eventually, a great advantage when miss chances are involved. With just the use of blind-fight feat (no use for spellcasters unfortunately), it just gets better.


Your monk build was "bad", because it was completely unworkable in a game. How would you even survive until you got Polymorph? By hiding during every fight? It relied on Polymorph--for EVERY fight, your melee abilities were crap without it--and spent MORE than a quarter of WBL on a wand which it would burn through in 13 encounter-days (two or three levels!). And this is how you show that monks make good PCs? By doing things which are completely unviable in a game?

Well, first of all, ahead of the duel it was never the issue that the monk I used should have any particular role in a normal adventuring party - although it clearly showed that it was great for combating casters and solo combats, and also would have filled a scout role greatly. A BAN on the polymorph spell ahead of the duel would have resulted in different combat tactics, that would also have made it more viable in regular melee combat.
Only on your and Bassetking's side it was intended to build characters that would also be expected in normal play. You fulfilled this, while Bassetking did not (although I never quite understood why this average party druid had prepared the control winds spell :smallbiggrin:).


I could have UMDed Polymorph too, Gia. I didn't. I could have used a Candle of Invocation. I didn't. I could have had an elemental dump Dust of Sneezing and Choking on you. I didn't.

Candle of Invocation was banned ahead of the duel, so you could not have used it. A cursed item would have been unusual (I have the feeling that the dust was banned as well). The polymorph was not banned, and I explicitly asked the DM Jack Mann what he thought about both morph and bottle. He did not mind. So no need to go through the roof about it even now.
Core rules the duel rules were. And so it went (and the true reason why you did not UMD polymorph was that you had so little extra utility out of it, since your druid was able to turn into a dire tiger without it AND be able to use spells with it).


There's a reason you have to keep reaching for outlandish, unworkable tactics, Giacomo. It's because the monk isn't a good class. If it was a good class, it could melee WITHOUT a smoking bottle (that shuts down its whole party) and Polymorph (which makes a Warrior great, too, and is so broken even WotC admits it).
I'm surprised you haven't pulled out a Candle of Invocation yet to show how good monks are.

It would be odd if a class would be good only with standard items.
And once again, the candle was not allowed in the duel (and it was even too expensive, since we said a one-use item needed to be 10x the price).
And do you consider the similarly priced gate scroll broken?


Again and again, partially-charged wands ARE NOT RAW. RAW, you can FIND them. You can sell the ones YOU buy and partially use. But "wand with X charges" is NOT on the item tables. RAW, you can buy wands. You can't buy partially charged wands. Partially charged wands aren't RAW for a reason--it makes no sense.

It makes sense, only not in the way you like. Scrolls for level 1-4 are not that great. Similarly there are spells that are not that great compared to their higher level versions or spells with similar effects of their level.
The only advantage for scroll is the price advantage for casters having the scribe scroll feat (like wizards in particular who get it for free and otherwise wish to have no more item creation feats).
That's what the rules say. That's what makes perfect sense. As does the logic that if you can sell partially charged wands for a certain price, you should also be able to buy them. There is no other interpretation possible.
Weapon and Armour items favour non-casters.
Most other items favour casters (who can make them themselves for a lower price).
Wands are of most benefit to casters and UMD users.


You also make no attempts to account for the EXPENSIVENESS of UMD. 50 wand charges get used up, when you rely on them! Buying the wand once with WBL doesn't represent how expensive buying multiple wands (progressively more of them throughout your career) is. And what about those fights when you DON'T get to prepare? Despite what you seem to think, in actual games, they're the norm, not the exception!

But I do. I never proposed to buy tons of 4th level wands (the most expensive kind). The UMDing non-caster should focus on a few, highly effective wands. CLW and Enlarge wands are great examples. At 2nd level, the silence wand is a great thing to use vs spellcasters (it's some sort of poor man's AMF, no save, with a larger radius, and less harmful to buffs on yourself as a non-caster). The partially charged versions also offer good opportunities to spend cash and loot for magic items in levels 2-3 (when the maximum value of a single item following the DMG recommendation is 1/4 of the total wbl, or 775 at level 3.)


The problem with NPC spellcasting buffs and rings of spell storing is that you can't get them constantly.

You can, which is the whole point of it. The game assumes to be a group game. In downtime between adventures, spellcasters can fill storing items to help their fellow non-casters (in particular with the great range:personal spells). Leftover spells of the day can be used to refill rings.
Pearls of power are also great in that respect (courtesy lord_khaine).


Getting a Ring of Spell Storing refilled four times a day means you're using four 4th or 5th level spell slots every day. As I pointed out, the rest of the party needs those slots, too, including the cleric--who's already giving you buffs.

In cases where the adventure demands it to fully fight for the 4 encounters, the wands enter the picture to offer additional flexibility at "peak hours", so to speak.


NPC spellcasting? Sure, it's a great idea, *if you know you'll be fighting within the next X and are in a city*.

The "know you'll be fighting" part is actually also required of all casters preparing their spells. And if the buff spell is inside and there is no fight, it simply remains stored.


Even in a city-based campaign, how can you count on finding an NPC caster with the exact spell you want prepared right between fights?

Rules. DMs can deviate from that, but in that case they should know that this hampers part of the PC recovery/healing/items resources the game assumes them to have.


Let's say you're breaking into a slaver compound. Do you beat up the guards at the entrance, run off to find a wizard, then another wizard, then another one (who finally already has the spell known and prepared), pay him, and then run back for the next fight?

No. For the peaks, there are wands. And buff spells of your fellow pc casters.


And that's in a city-*based* campaign. I don't know about you, but in the games I play, cities tend to be *stopping points*--springboards for adventure that take you into enemy lairs, into dungeons, into the wilderness.

That is exactly that: the games YOU play. Lankhmar? Waterdeep? City campaigns exist plentiful.


You have yet to explain how you can make sure you always have these NPC/spell-stored buffs. You finally suggested buying four Pearls of Power...
...even though you wouldn't have money for stat-boosters, save-boosters, attack and AC boosters, etc, that way! Sorry, you can't afford four Pearls of Power IV for QUITE a while. Even then, the 114,000 gp a Ring of Spell Storing and four Pearls of Power are QUITE the investment (half of your WBL at level 16, was it?)

Yes. So what? The pearls of power and the ring can be used to get buffs that replace other items. If the particular monk or whatever build is specialised in a certain way, it remains to be seen whether that pearl of power investment is worth it or not.


Yes, Leadership gets you a SECOND CHARACTER. Again, your buffed monk then has to compete with *two* wizards, or a Barbarian and a wizard, or etc, since everyone can take Leadership (and due to the monk's MAD, you're not even as good at getting a level-appropriate cohort). Leadership is a special option in the DMG. What's more, your DM designs and builds your cohort!

You are entirely correct. That is why I made the concluding statement in my post that you seem to have ignored at this point and only commented on later.


Gaining WBL-disproportionate wealth through crafting, sleight-of-hand, etc, is never considered an option. Forgery can theoretically get you large sums, but it's risky... and you're either going to lose some/all of it, or start getting low loot to even out your WBL. If you were suggesting a monk who used Forgery to make lots of money to buy NPC spellcasting, you'd be shot down, too.

No. There are some ways to get items cheaper which then does not count vs your wbl. Like spellcasters creating items with their own feats. Or crafting adventurers producing masterwork weapons for less than the market price.
It is entirely straightforward that then, the skill for the classic roleplaying social activity to barter for lower prices also can get you items cheaper.


Diplomacy makes people friendly. It doesn't get them to effectively give you money (presumably, spellcasters who sell spells make a living doing so. By giving you a spell, they're not selling it! That's more than friendly).
Incidentally, how does your monk afford Diplomacy? You have UMD and four skills, with 10 INT. What are they?

If you help someone and you are friendly to him, then will you sell to him your item at the same price as to a complete stranger? Does not make much sense to me, in particular if it involves something that carries hardly any marginal cost to them (like a 10th level caster using a 3rd level spell of his vast array of spells not likely to be used up for the day in peaceful times in his temple/liberary). There may be certain circumstances, like divine spells not generally for sale except to believers etc.
The INT 10 was used for the more combat-oriented human monk that did 370 damage in a round (who also did not even need UMD). So it might have been the usual spot/listen/move silently/hide/diplomacy maxed out combo. Or get tumble 5 ranks at least, and thus do not max some other skills.


4 pearls of power IV and a ring of spell storing cost 114k together. That's half your level 16 WBL. If you really want to do that, go ahead, and you can count on having Divine Power (or whatever) to use each fight for your build... but then you'll get to see the effects of not having half your WBL to spend (flight? freedom of movement? Cloak of Resistance? Stat-boosters?).

Flight via boots are much cheaper.
Freedom of movement is less necessary for a monk at 16th level than for other classes, similarly cloak of resistance (which is also quite cheap at that level). Stat boosters may be in part emulated with exactly the pearls of power that are at issue (say, a divine power provides you with the +6 STR enhancement you need).


If you keep on doing ridiculous things like not being able to fight without expensive consumables, we'll keep on ridiculing your builds.

Using wands is not ridiculous. Do you think Harry Potter ridiculous?:smallbiggrin: OK, bad example...
Seriously. For just 21,000 gold you can completely overcome your BAB disadvantage 50 times, while providing you extra hp and +6 STR. You think that is ridiculous? For just 1,500 gold you can be large size, get +5 to grapple and 10ft reach for 100 (!!) encounters. Still ridiculous?


There's a REASON you have to stretch so hard to try to make the monk class workable. If you ask me to build a druid or cleric or wizard or melee build, I don't have to pull any of this crap. I can make a character that would fit in with pretty much any adventuring party and be enormously useful.
That's even the case for a core-only melee character (although that's harder).

The reason why it is so simple to make powerful spellcasters is that they simply do not get challenged enough. Obscuring their sight shuts down most of what they can do (and so many things in the game do that, even mundane, they simply are hardly ever applied by DMs or players alike), they are dependant on refreshing them every day (notice the similarity, albeit at a more frequent interval, to "consumables"?).
AND also the way the game playout in real time greatly influences the perception, probably.
A cleric zillaing for 7 rounds into a fighter with +6 STR shines for those 7 rounds if unopposed which can take up whole gaming evenings in inexperienced groups (perhaps 1 hour per combat round, more, the more players). Then, when the gaming evening is over, everyone says - OK, let's withdraw for the night. Next gaming session we start refreshed.
And guess what, the spells/day limit never really hurt the casters.


Building a character that can burn through a bunch of consumables to contribute, if he has however much time he needs to prepare, is pointless. So is building a character that can fight in melee... if he builds around having an item that makes the rest of his party unable to fight. These things show that apparently the monk just can't cut it.

The monk I used was not built around the bottle. In normal gameplay, he would have had a chance to surprise the druid (or whatever opponent, and then attack/grapple in morphed form. Bottle not even needed.
Meanwhile, the bottle remains a powerful item for group play, as I showed above.


Leadership is out because getting a second character doesn't show that your first character is good. If you take Leadership, compare your characters to other characters with leadership. You might be viable if a spellcaster spends all his spells buffing you... but a barbarian whose cohort spellcaster spends his spells like normal spellcasters do will do a hell of a lot better.
And, yes, what kind of cohort you get and how he's built is entirely up to the DM.

I guess the leadership thing is cleared. It's RAW, but most DMs will houserule not to play with it. And if they play with it, the build is entirely up to them (excepting the level attracted).

That's about it.
I have no idea why you remain so adamant about the stuff you can do with non-casters, and that casters can get/should get challenges to make the game still fun for everyone. It's all possible using the existing rules without going to great lengths.

- Giacomo

*EDIT

[Nebo_]

Will also not comment on that. Only this: a lycanthrope weretiger fighter of 10th level has a LA +3 plus 6 HD, and thus only 1 level of fighter. THAT is how powerful the system believes the ability to change into a large creature with pounce is (abstracting for a moment from the special qualities of a lycanthrope).

But polymorphing into one is just fine?

[Aquillion]

Wait, the FIGHTER beat out the Adept?
Partially, I think it's because you rarely see people optimizing Adept builds, so people were comparing an unoptimized adept to the most absurd things you can do with Fighter. And additionally, I suspect some people forgot that adepts get polymorph.

[Skjaldbakka]

Well, I have fallen too far behind to really hope to catch up, so I'm done, as entertaining as it is to argue the point with as skilled a debater as Giacomo.

Anyway, I would like to conclude with this point. The first thread I saw on this subject I joined very much on the pro-monk side. It was the first time I'd ever heard anyone trashing the monk class. I argued it out for quite awhile. I was eventually convinced that I was wrong, and here is the statement I made then to that effect.

"The reason monk is underpowered has nothing to do with whether or not it can compete with the fighter in the role of front-liner, or with the ranger in the role of scout, or with the rogue in the role of skill monkey. The reason it is overpowered is because it takes more work (in terms of optimization)or better luck (in terms of better rolled stats) to do it. Sure, the monk can compete with the fighter on the front lines, but he has to have better stats, or put ranks into cross-class skills to do it. That or spend more time digging through sourcebooks for that one feat combo that makes you awesome (and hope the fighter doesn't do the same). So if you are more experienced gamer than the rest of your group, your monk will be great, because the rest of the party isn't optimized to the extent you are. If you rolled much better than the other players, your monk will be great, because you have lots of good stats to start with, giving you an edge. But if you are using point buy and playing with a bunch of folks that build solidly powerful characters and play just as smart as you do, you will not be as good as them, because the monk takes a higher level of optimization to contribute on an equal level."

[Talic]

then go out and say that instead of misquoting me.Didn't I just do that? What's your complaint here?


well a monk would usualy do a lot more damage on a full attack, unless it happens he is competing in damage against someone with a magic weapon, without having that advantage himself.And what grants him this full attack? Let's assume, like the rogue below, my opponent is using movement to stay 10-15 feet back and limit the full attacks he receives.

most things with 2 leggs can be trippet, if they dont have to many hd and are alive, then stun is a option, and when all those fail, there are still a chance of grapple.Really? build a core 20 monk that can reliably tip the following MM1, 2 legged creatures: Titan, Storm Giant. See? At higher levels, everything has either more than 2 legs, or a lot of HD. Oh, and a good deal of them have large enough size to make the monk's grapple check puny. Oh, and did I mention those things have a Fort save that makes the monk stun DC laughable? So, in other words, unless you're fighting a medium foe with poor BAB and weak fort saves, you're hosed. And if you are, it's probably a wizard, and guess what? You're still hosed.


that aside, when considering the role of frontliner, then it dont matter how much damage you do, since smarter monsters will allways go for the casters behind, and stupid monsters will attack the closest thing.
Hardly. Smarter monsters will go for the threats first, and use their multiple abilities to target more than one foe. Creature attack plans listed in the MM disagree with you. In fact, the Titan's focuses on melee combatants, night walker's round 3,4,5 are exclusively devoted to melee, And it's gonna likely be invisible until after round 1. That means 1 round to get in on it and hit, in round 2, and, if you don't have a weapon, you then get punched in the face. Repeatedly. Full attack with monk ups damage output for both sides, and the monsters have better HP (and DR, and damage, and attack bonuses). If the monk gets paid attention to, he's dead. If he's the only frontliner? Chances are good he'll be paid attention to, unless he's totally ineffective.


in those cases a good defence is a lot more important than a additional 5-10 points of damage.What cases? Cases where the DM controls monsters like they're dumb? Even a low CR wolf pack is going to circle, and focus on targets that are seperate from the pack. Yes, animals will use tactics too. Pack hunters will generally target the weak, the seperate. What you're trying to tell me is, "monsters should never attack me if I'm not the closest, and that will get me full attacks when I'm...5...feet...away. Oh. Right.

well you cant hit anything when you have been burned to ash, and its my experience you dont get a proper defence against thing that hits willsave before the very high levels, where fx you can get mindblank.
True, but wizards are smart opponents, right? So they'll go for the casters first, and ignore that fighter, by your own arguement. :smallamused:


yes but immune to stunning doesnt hit monks nearly as hard as immune to sneak attack hits rogues. Because stunning is a non-ability. Immune to physical attacks hits rogues harder too, because monk attacks are frankly crap to begin with, so losing them doesn't hit as hard as the rogue losing his effective attacks.
sneak attack at range is a lot harder to pull off, since you suddenly cant relly on flanking anymore.
Yes you can. Range attackers benefit from flanking, they just don't provide it to others. Also, range allows more opportunities to take advantace of cover to get hidden.

i cant see the idea behind the sudden focus on stunning attacks, since they are not nearly as important for a monk as sneak attack is for a rogue.
Well, it seems to be the first thing monks use in their arguements for parity, I was under the impression that you thought it was a good ability. Guess you're on the same track as the rest of us then. Stun sucks, nothing more will be said about it, unless you dispute that.

[Solo]

most things with 2 leggs can be trippet, if they dont have to many hd and are alive, then stun is a option, and when all those fail, there are still a chance of grapple.

Khaine, not to be a jerk or anything, but could you please run your posts through a spell check?

[emeraldstreak]

Let's go outside of core then, shall we? 32 point build, noncore parts have *:

Fighter 8 (Water* Orc)/Barbarian 2 (Wolf Totem*)

Str: 22
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 6
Wis: 10
Cha: 6

Flaws*: Murky Eyed, Shaky.

Feats:
Level 1: Aberrant Heritage*, Willing Deformity*, Inhuman reach*, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Spiked Chain.
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
Level 3: Deformity: Tall *(Barb 1, Rage, Fast movement)
Level 4: (Barb 2) Improved Trip*. (from wolf totem)
Level 5: (Fighter 3)
Level 6: (Fighter 4) Combat Reflexes, Dodge
Level 7: (Fighter 5)
Level 8: Mobility
Level 9: Spring Attack
Level 10: Stand Still*


I was talking about comparing straight monk/ftr/barb, but that's what I can do for you:

Monk 8 (Water* Orc)/Fighter 2

Str: 20
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 6
Wis: 12
Cha: 6

Flaws*: Murky Eyed, Shaky.

Feats:
Level 1: (Ftr 1) Aberrant Heritage*, Willing Deformity*, Inhuman reach*, Stand Still*
Level 2: (Ftr 2) Dodge
Level 3: (Monk 1) Decisive Strike*; Deformity: Tall*, Stunning Fist
Level 4: (Monk 2) Combat Reflexes
Level 5:
Level 6: Mobility
Level 7:
Level 8: (Monk 6) Improved Trip
Level 9: Spring Attack
Level 10:

In the outer half of the reach, fight with a guisarme. In the inner, with unarmed strike. Decisive Strike requires attack with unarmed/monk weapon, then doubles the damage of any attack for the round (including all AoOs).

OR even

Cobra Strike* Monk 8 (Water* Orc)/Barbarian 2 (Wolf Totem*)

Str: 20
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 6
Wis: 12
Cha: 6

Flaws*: Murky Eyed, Shaky.

Feats:
Level 1: (Barb 1) Aberrant Heritage*, Willing Deformity*, Inhuman reach*; Wolf Totem (CC), Rage (currently unusable; there's a trick for Orcs to be nonlawful monks but I don't have the time to look it up atm)
Level 2: (Barb 2) Improved Trip (Wolf Totem UA)
Level 3: Deformity: Tall* (Monk 1, Decisive Strike*, Dodge*)
Level 4: (Monk 2) Mobility*
Level 5:
Level 6: Combat Reflexes
Level 7:
Level 8: (Monk 6) Spring Attack*
Level 9: Stand Still*
Level 10:

Again guisarme, decisive strike, etc.

[emeraldstreak]

Furthermore, this doesn't even prove that monks are better. It proves that you could, conceivably, using cheese and extreme powergame methods, make a monk that was twinked.
Granted, using the same kind of methods I could make a fighter that was more twinked.
IE:

Lvl 12 Fighter Dragonborn Water Orc
Str: 22 +6 (belt of strength)
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 6
Wis: 12
Cha: 6

I'm not even going to bother making the most out of all these feats, I'll just take the ones that I need and leave it there...

1 Power Attack
1 Weapon focus (Spear)
2 Quickdraw
3 Blind Fight
4 Cleave
6 Leap Attack
6 Weapon Specialization
8 Greater Weapon Focus
10 Improved Initiative
12 Item Familiar
12 Greater Weapon Specialization

Bracers of Psionic Lion's Charge at Will (14,400- this is the item familiar)
Belt of Giant's Strength +6 (36,000)
+1 longspear (2,000)
Intelligent Mask of Precognition, Offensive, at Will (as 16th manifester. 29,800)
Crystal of Energy Assault, Lesser

So, on a charge, this happens:
Intelligent items can activate their powers of their own accord, so they use lion's charge and precognition on our guy. He then jumps into the air, dives down and deals the following damage:
+12+2(charge)+9(strength)+1(weapon)+2(WF)+6 (Precognition) = 32
He'll take a -12 for power attack, putting him him at +20/+15/+10
2d4+1(long spear)+24 (power attack)+13(strength)+4(WS)+1d6 (energy assault crystal)
50.5 damage average However, this is headlong rush, so x2. It's also being done by a flying dragonborn doing a dive attack with a piercing weapon, which multiplies it again. x3.
151.5 damage from each attack that hits.

And that is with a build I threw together in a couple of seconds with some extremely unoptimized feat choices. If you gave me more time, I could show you things that would make you cry.

Technically speaking, you forgot to take Headlong Rush and crystal damage is not multiplied. Anyhow, when I have the time I'll try to build a comparable Monk longspear flurry charger, using an Eberron feat.

[emeraldstreak]

Damage
Base: d6 (monk's belt) + 1 (str) + 1 (Power Attack) +2 (spec)
Superior Unarmed Strike (don't own the book, please correct if this is wrong): Advance two damage steps, to d10
6 size increases (GrMtyWallop +5, Imp Natural+1), to 8d6 damage. (Damage maxes out at Colossal - you could probably bump down the CL of GMW to save some cash).

So, +16/+11, 8d6+4.

SUS is different for nonmonks, and I'm not sure monk's belt can change that. I'm not sure INA applies to nonmonk unarmed either.

At any rate, the base damage dice will be a lot less than the monk's, this will result in double digit difference in damage post-Wallop. And the monk has flurry on top.

[Talic]

I was talking about comparing straight monk/ftr/barb, but that's what I can do for you:

Monk 8 (Water* Orc)/Fighter 2

Str: 20
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 6
Wis: 12
Cha: 6

Flaws*: Murky Eyed, Shaky.

Feats:
Level 1: (Ftr 1) Aberrant Heritage*, Willing Deformity*, Inhuman reach*, Stand Still*
Level 2: (Ftr 2) Dodge
Level 3: (Monk 1) Decisive Strike*; Deformity: Tall*, Stunning Fist
Level 4: (Monk 2) Combat Reflexes
Level 5:
Level 6: Mobility
Level 7:
Level 8: (Monk 6) Improved Trip
Level 9: Spring Attack
Level 10:

In the outer half of the reach, fight with a guisarme. In the inner, with unarmed strike. Decisive Strike requires attack with unarmed/monk weapon, then doubles the damage of any attack for the round (including all AoOs).
[/s]Invalid arguement. One cannot use fighter or barbarian if you're trying to prove that monk is balanced to fighter or barbarian. To do so, you're conceding dependence on the class.

Further... Guisarme? Tumble inside of reach, done.


OR even

Cobra Strike* Monk 8 (Water* Orc)/Barbarian 2 (Wolf Totem*)

Str: 20
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 6
Wis: 12
Cha: 6

Flaws*: Murky Eyed, Shaky.

Feats:
Level 1: (Barb 1) Aberrant Heritage*, Willing Deformity*, Inhuman reach*; Wolf Totem (CC), Rage (currently unusable; there's a trick for Orcs to be nonlawful monks but I don't have the time to look it up atm)
Level 2: (Barb 2) Improved Trip (Wolf Totem UA)
Level 3: Deformity: Tall* (Monk 1, Decisive Strike*, Dodge*)
Level 4: (Monk 2) Mobility*
Level 5:
Level 6: Combat Reflexes
Level 7:
Level 8: (Monk 6) Spring Attack*
Level 9: Stand Still*
Level 10:

Again guisarme, decisive strike, etc.
See above comment. Further, if you can't cite a source, then it's not valid. Cite at least the feat, ability, or alternative class feature allowing nonlawful monk (I know one off the top of my head, but it involves feats, and you seem fresh out at level 1)

Using monk in barbarian admits that monk isn't up to power without them. If you'd prefer a build that's only fighter or barb, plus any related PrC's, I'll be happy to provide one for you. Please note, if you actually insist on this, I will actually spend a little time on the build, and the resulting character will likely showcase abilities strong enough to make any minor class related abilites moot, thus turning into essentially a battle of feats vs less feats. Guess which wins.

Oh, and as for Giacomo's comment on Lycanthropy. Reread the entry. Lycanthropes can be LA+2. Not a major issue, but you've been misrepresenting it for going on 10 pages now, thought I'd actually take the time to correct your error now.

[emeraldstreak]

Invalid arguement. One cannot use fighter or barbarian if you're trying to prove that monk is balanced to fighter or barbarian.

Fighter or barbarian being key here, not Fighter/Barbarian. Anyone can benefit from multiclass.



Further... Guisarme? Tumble inside of reach, done.


Huh, unarmed strike? A monk doesn't need her hands free to attack with unarmed strike.



See above comment. Further, if you can't cite a source, then it's not valid. Cite at least the feat, ability, or alternative class feature allowing nonlawful monk (I know one off the top of my head, but it involves feats, and you seem fresh out at level 1)


No need to do that as I already said Rage is not available for the build.



Using monk in barbarian admits that monk isn't up to power without them. If you'd prefer a build that's only fighter or barb, plus any related PrC's


It's really simple. Pure fighter, pure monk, pure barbarian balance discussion.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I have a dream…where an iconic group of Batman, CoDzilla, Solorcerer and Giamonk do adventures in harmony…:smallcool:


:smallyuk:




See above comment. Further, if you can't cite a source, then it's not valid. Cite at least the feat, ability, or alternative class feature allowing nonlawful monk (I know one off the top of my head, but it involves feats, and you seem fresh out at level 1)



Actually, I'm afraid that there is a variant. DR 335 has the (habeeb it) 'chaos monk', that swaps out flurry of blows for the frankly superior flailing strike, purity of body for a 'daze on charge' effect, wholeness of body and abundant step for a 20%-50% miss chance, and diamond body for slippery mind. Oh yeah, and has to be chaotic. Still, if we're breaking open the crock of nastiness that is Dragon, then we might as well go martial monk for its three prerequisite-less fighter feats. Eh, I think I'll be going weapon supremacy at 1st level.

[emeraldstreak]

Because the custom item guidelines are really, really bad. They lead to things like plentiful Insight and Divine bonuses to AC, continuous Wraithstrike, etc.

Comparing it to other custom items is perfectly fair. It's 1/day 'cause it only needs to be 1/day, not out of fairness concerns.

Your "bit more" basically argues that monks need custom items because they're at a disadvantage--read, weaker--otherwise. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Monks deserve custom items because they're weaker, but it's only fair for them to have them, so they're not weaker? However you cut it, basing an argument off of custom items for monks only is NOT valid.

What you fail to see is GMWallop is a 3rd level spell with duration of "hours".

Outside custom items, it's both oil-able and wand-able.

Normal size monks with INA need it at CL 12 to reach Colossal damage die

Normal size powerful build / Large (lots of playable races qualifying) need it at CL 8.

[Talic]

It's really simple. Pure fighter, pure monk, pure barbarian balance discussion.

Ah but part of the balance in non-core is how well the class synergizes with the PrC's designed to be taken advantage of by it. And sadly, Monk is, yet again, gimped with a bunch of poop while the melee classes get effective abilities.



Actually, I'm afraid that there is a variant. DR 335 has the (habeeb it) 'chaos monk', that swaps out flurry of blows for the frankly superior flailing strike, purity of body for a 'daze on charge' effect, wholeness of body and abundant step for a 20%-50% miss chance, and diamond body for slippery mind. Oh yeah, and has to be chaotic. Still, if we're breaking open the crock of nastiness that is Dragon, then we might as well go martial monk for its three prerequisite-less fighter feats. Eh, I think I'll be going weapon supremacy at 1st level.

I'm cool with that. All I want is for people to do their freakin homework and not say, "uh, uh, there's an ability somewhere that does this, but, uh, I don't know what it is, or what the prereqs are, but, uh uh, I'm just going to assume I have it."

[lord_khaine]

Right. But charms and compulsions are right out

as i belive someone has allready mentioned, those dont actualy grant control of the subject, the only spells that do that are the domination line (at least that i can recall)


Didn't I just do that? What's your complaint here?

that i find it pretty rude when people change the wording in something i write, and then pretend its because they "correct something"


And what grants him this full attack? Let's assume, like the rogue below, my opponent is using movement to stay 10-15 feet back and limit the full attacks he receives.
and in that case he wont get a full attack in on you either, you can then trip or grapple the opponent, or enjoy the AOO you will get when they move away.


Really? build a core 20 monk that can reliably tip the following MM1, 2 legged creatures: Titan, Storm Giant. See? At higher levels, everything has either more than 2 legs, or a lot of HD. Oh, and a good deal of them have large enough size to make the monk's grapple check puny. Oh, and did I mention those things have a Fort save that makes the monk stun DC laughable? So, in other words, unless you're fighting a medium foe with poor BAB and weak fort saves, you're hosed. And if you are, it's probably a wizard, and guess what? You're still hosed.

what part of "most" did you miss? i say that most things on 2 leggs can be tripped, and then you dig out a couple of the biggest and stronget creatures in the MM1, that really doesnt prove anything.
instead i would like to mention Babau, Balor, Glabrezu, Hezrou, Marilith, Malfeshne, vrock, Destrachan, Hamatula, barbazu, Ozyloth, Kyton, Erinyes, Cornugon, Gelugon, Pit fiend, Devourer.
and that was just going from a-d in the MM1.
so, your claim about medium, poor bab and weak fort saves dont hold water, if i were you i would check my hose.

and in those cases where you are fighting a wizard then the monk is proberly the noncaster thats least hosed.


Hardly. Smarter monsters will go for the threats first, and use their multiple abilities to target more than one foe. Creature attack plans listed in the MM disagree with you. In fact, the Titan's focuses on melee combatants, night walker's round 3,4,5 are exclusively devoted to melee, And it's gonna likely be invisible until after round 1. That means 1 round to get in on it and hit, in round 2, and, if you don't have a weapon, you then get punched in the face. Repeatedly. Full attack with monk ups damage output for both sides, and the monsters have better HP (and DR, and damage, and attack bonuses). If the monk gets paid attention to, he's dead. If he's the only frontliner? Chances are good he'll be paid attention to, unless he's totally ineffective.

if the monsters were smart and went for the threats first, they would start with the casters, that the MM creature plans disagree with me i will take as a good sign, since they are often not that smart again.
that aside, of course the monsters have better HP, DR and attacks, else they would not be a challenge for the party, if a single member could solo them without using any serious resources.
that aside, i dont buy your claim to that the monk cant survive the attention he might get on the frontlines.


What cases? Cases where the DM controls monsters like they're dumb? Even a low CR wolf pack is going to circle, and focus on targets that are seperate from the pack. Yes, animals will use tactics too. Pack hunters will generally target the weak, the seperate. What you're trying to tell me is, "monsters should never attack me if I'm not the closest, and that will get me full attacks when I'm...5...feet...away. Oh. Right.

well for a start wolfs are animals, and usualy to smart to attack a group of adventures, and you can be sure they wont ignore it if something actualy attacks them, and instead disengage and try to get whoevers behind.


True, but wizards are smart opponents, right? So they'll go for the casters first, and ignore that fighter, by your own arguement.

i actualy dont get your point here, i was talking about things that targets willsave, there are a lot of things that do that, but who isnt a wizard.
that aside, a lot of those things can hit several targets at once, so they could also get the fighter while covering the rest of the party.

better yet some of them could make the fighter attack the wizard, killing 2 flies with one blow.


Yes you can. Range attackers benefit from flanking, they just don't provide it to others. Also, range allows more opportunities to take advantace of cover to get hidden.
actualy the rogue have to flank her target, and you cant do that unless you are making a melee attack.


Well, it seems to be the first thing monks use in their arguements for parity, I was under the impression that you thought it was a good ability. Guess you're on the same track as the rest of us then. Stun sucks, nothing more will be said about it, unless you dispute that.

stun is a good thing to have whenever you face living opponents, thats not the same thing to say its as important to monks as sneak attack is to rogues.

[Nebo_]

What you fail to see is GMWallop is a 3rd level spell with duration of "hours".

Outside custom items, it's both oil-able and wand-able.

Normal size monks with INA need it at CL 12 to reach Colossal damage die

Normal size powerful build / Large (lots of playable races qualifying) need it at CL 8.

Congratulations, you found a powerful spell. All that means is that the spell is powerful, not that monks are powerful. Sure, a monk could make use of it, but so could anyone else.

[AmberVael]

Technically speaking, you forgot to take Headlong Rush and crystal damage is not multiplied. Anyhow, when I have the time I'll try to build a comparable Monk longspear flurry charger, using an Eberron feat.

Oh, I just put in leap attack instead. So technically the build still works, I just added in the wrong feat (I got them confused in my head, since they both multiply.
And I see no reason for it not to be multiplied. Headlong rush does not specify any particular effect that it multiplies... just overall damage dealt.

But the sad truth of the matter is what I said at the top of my post, which you didn't acknowledge. All of these builds only show the amount of cheese you can put into something- none of them truly demonstrate a good, reasonable use of the class with normal restrictions that a DM would use in their game.
Sure, you can cheese out the monk by pulling out random things and sticking it onto your character- so can everyone else. It doesn't make the monk any better.

[Solo]

that aside, i dont buy your claim to that the monk cant survive the attention he might get on the frontlines.

1d8+con mod HP is enough for frontliners in your games?


ps. Glad you seem to have run your posts through a spellchecker now. Makes them easier to read.




Ah, and emeraldstreak. Glad to see you're still here.

I realize that it may be too much trouble for you to follow the link in my last post towards you and read the questions I had for you.

I shall now sum them up in this post for your convenience.

1) You look down on us for not owning the MiC, yet not all of us can afford it. I myself am attending a college that costs over 30k a year, which leaves little room for luxuries such as DnD books.

That being the case, and since you seem to find it so important for people to own the MiC (otherwise we would be ignorant and etc), could you please buy me a copy, mail me a spare copy you might have, or give me a PDF of it?

2) You say the MiC has a definite ruling on buying wands with partial charges. Please provide it.


Thank you.

[SamTheCleric]

Level 1 monk with a custom magic item 1/day Persistant "I Win" ... it's a home brew spell.

There, monks are now useful! :smallbiggrin:

[Number 6]

If you're running a pretty high-powered, combat oriented group, your monk may well feel left out - optimization can take your monk player a good distance, if he knows how, but ultimately his alignment, multiclassing, and equipment restrictions will have him falling behind if group power level continues to increase.

Note: I made a post a while back about promoting role playing in d20 and I got some letters telling me bluntly that D&D and d20 are combat centered games which are supposed to have a lot of fighting. So, the monk would be out of luck.

[Number 6]

Khaine, not to be a jerk or anything, but could you please run your posts through a spell check?

That reminds me. When I try to run the spell checker, I get a message, "If you would like to downlad ieSpell then click OK." I click OK, and it's stopped by my pop-up blocker and I can't get it to come in. How do you get the spell checker to work on this forum?

[Ziggy's_Roady]

Actually.witht he correct amount of feats and skills, Monks can be an absolute wrecking force. My friend played this one, where he regained HD when attacking (Almost double his HD) and if anything inatly evil tried to attack him, he could whail on them with Subdual damage.

[Solo]

That reminds me. When I try to run the spell checker, I get a message, "If you would like to downlad ieSpell then click OK." I click OK, and it's stopped by my pop-up blocker and I can't get it to come in. How do you get the spell checker to work on this forum?

Step 1: Close IE
Step 2: Install Firefox
Step 3: Use Firefox


Actually.witht he correct amount of feats and skills, Monks can be an absolute wrecking force. My friend played this one, where he regained HD when attacking (Almost double his HD) and if anything inatly evil tried to attack him, he could whail on them with Subdual damage.

Regain hit dice?:smallconfused:

[Rutee]

Note: I made a post a while back about promoting role playing in d20 and I got some letters telling me bluntly that D&D and d20 are combat centered games which are supposed to have a lot of fighting. So, the monk would be out of luck.

They are combat centric games. Doesn't mean you can't use DnD for whatever you want, but about 70 to 80% of the core books is all combat related; If you wanna stick to non-combat, why not find a system built for non-combat?


That reminds me. When I try to run the spell checker, I get a message, "If you would like to downlad ieSpell then click OK." I click OK, and it's stopped by my pop-up blocker and I can't get it to come in. How do you get the spell checker to work on this forum?
Well, it comes standard in Firefox, but you could cut n' paste posts to Word, run spellchecker, and then c/p back.

[Telonius]

No, this is a great comparison! You threw together in a bit neglecting way the powerful or useful abilities of perfect self and etheralness and no penalties to ageing under "random abilities", but for the first 16 levels they do not matter. And the AC is better by 1 for the monk due to the monk's belt (only the AC bonus improves in epic levels).#
The only thing I disagree with is the conclusion...

The fighter trying to emulate the monk is vastly inferior. Example in point (obvious from all the many posts I already gave) is that the monk can use his skill point advantage to get UMD (divine power equaling the BAB, equaling then the disadvantage for grapple/trip, netting another extra attack and thus in full attack getting more damage), tumbling to aid his movement in unarmed combat (getting +1 AC when fighting devensively), and spot/listen for less risk of being surprised.
Even if (which I showed is not true) the fighter were able to equal the monk in the fighting prowess, the monk has so many other abilities and better saves, SR and defenses that the fighter player would be really disappointed for having chosen this route for his fighter.

Now, the other way round is also a problem for the monk. He COULD take exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain, take the key combat reflexes and improved trip bonus feats and thus be on the path to good melee battlefield control. However, in missile attack inferiority it becomes clear that the monk can never emulate the weapon mastery of the fighter.



The fighter can also take UMD and tumble. He has two skill points per level, and can use them there. He'll have 11.5 ranks in both by 20th level. UMD will be equal to the monk. Tumble will be half the monk's total. Not an auto-succeed for either, but also not an auto-fail. He does fall behind on the other scout-like abilities.


SUS is different for nonmonks, and I'm not sure monk's belt can change that. I'm not sure INA applies to nonmonk unarmed either.

At any rate, the base damage dice will be a lot less than the monk's, this will result in double digit difference in damage post-Wallop. And the monk has flurry on top.

Just how many (and how large) dice worth of different matters quite a bit to the comparison. If it's only a d6 worth of difference, then the fighter can partially make it up by increasing the amount of power attack.

Going back to Frank and Morty, let's compare the other way. I'll keep Frank focused on the Quarterstaff, which is a weapon Morty doesn't need to buy proficiency. That way when he buys a magic quarterstaff, he won't be unfairly disadvantaging Morty. He will forego ranged weapons. Frank also agrees to go unarmored; any armor bonuses come from Bracers of Armor. He'll even buy a Monk's Belt.

Core, 25 point buy, for a fighter:
STR: 16
DEX: 13
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 8

Frank
Feats spoilered
1 Power Attack
1 (Ftr) Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff)
1 (Human) Improved Initiative
2 (Ftr) Dodge
3 Iron Will
4 Cleave
6 Quick Draw
6 (Ftr) Blind-Fight
8 (Ftr) Weapon Specialization (Qstaff)
9 Lightning Reflexes
10 (Ftr) Greater Weapon Focus (Qstaff)
12 Improved Critical (Qstaff)
12 (Ftr) Combat Expertise (requires a +1 bump to Int)
14 (Ftr) Greater Weapon Specialization (Qstaff)
15 Improved Disarm
16 (Ftr) Mobility
18 Toughness
18 (Ftr) Improved Trip
20 (Ftr) Spring Attack

So, at 20th level, Frank will have:
133 HP
Attack bonus: 20 (Bab) + 3 (str) + 2 (focus) - 5 (Power attack) = 20/15/10/5
Damage: d6 + 3 (str) + 4 (specialization) + 10 (power atk) = d6+17 (19-20x2)
(average damage: 20.5 per hit)
AC: 10 + 1 (dex) + 1 (monk's belt) = 12*
* +1 dodge vs one enemy per round
Will = 8, Ref = 9, Fort = 13
Init = 5
Bonuses to Trip and Disarm
Extra mobility from Spring Attack

Let me know if anything is incorrect.

Anyone care to do a core feat progression for Morty?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Actually.witht he correct amount of feats and skills, Monks can be an absolute wrecking force. My friend played this one, where he regained HD when attacking (Almost double his HD) and if anything inatly evil tried to attack him, he could whail on them with Subdual damage.

He gained Hit Dice when attacking? Did he gain BAB and saves with them? What about Class features? That would be a Monk that can compete.

Although, he's better off dipping Monk for just enough levels to get that ability, then gaining Druid HD. ECL 6 character with 5 levels of Monk and 400 of Druid.

[emeraldstreak]

Ah but part of the balance in non-core is how well the class synergizes with the PrC's designed to be taken advantage of by it. And sadly, Monk is, yet again, gimped with a bunch of poop while the melee classes get effective abilities.


There are many PrCs out there, with the occasional odd synergy here and there. I don't feel qualified enough to speak on all Monk PrC possibilities, so I'm going to take your word on the matter.

[emeraldstreak]

All that means is that the spell is powerful, not that monks are powerful. Sure, a monk could make use of it, but so could anyone else.

Yes, the spell is powerful, and, yes, anyone can use it.

Monks do get more out of it compared to other meleeists, their base damage dice (normal size) reaching 2d10 eventually, to PHB's most damaging bludgeoning weapon being 1d10 for normal size, to splatbooks' 1d12 or 2d6.

Granted, that's just one synergy. It takes many synergies to evaluate the power of a class. For monks, synergy is in improving the unusually high damage die, in finding ways to benefit more from flurry by using effects like touch of golden ice, in using high speed/high jump with chronocharm or tiger claw maneuver, or in any other way that synergizes with monk's class features.

So, if all that is utilized in monk's behalf, is the monk roughly equal to her core rivals, the fighter and the barbarian? Well, maybe, maybe not. It comes to the weight you put on hit points, saves, evasion, AC, touch AC. Now I personally value saves and touch AC high, but I play open arenas a lot, with the characters' weak points known and vulnerable to opponents, and UMD for save-or-lose and rays being rampant. Many people play campaigns and probably value lots of hit points high. Ultimately, it's up to them to decide for monks, all I can do is share my experience in optimizing monks.

[Solo]

Ah, emeraldstreak, you seem to have overlooked what I have to say to you yet again.

I am really eager to know what the MiC has to say on the issue of buying partially charged wands, and I wouldn't say no to my own (free) copy of the MiC either.

Please respond.

[emeraldstreak]

But the sad truth of the matter is what I said at the top of my post, which you didn't acknowledge. All of these builds only show the amount of cheese you can put into something- none of them truly demonstrate a good, reasonable use of the class with normal restrictions that a DM would use in their game.
Sure, you can cheese out the monk by pulling out random things and sticking it onto your character- so can everyone else. It doesn't make the monk any better.

I acknowledge this. Using such characters in a normal campaign is pointless.

They are more useful in theoretical discussion, but one needs to cut thru all the cheese to get to what a class really is. It's a bit like Wallop, cheese for everyone, but monk getting a bit more out of it than the fighter/barbarian because of the underlying class feature; or a bit like comparing two chargers: both will take the most powerful feats like headlong rush, but the fighter class features will let him take extra stuff like blindfight and imp.initiative, whereas monk/barbarian can't.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Solo - you're not going to get an answer, just face it. Some might even say that there was none. :smallfrown: :smallamused:

Also, our group got a copy of MIC (1/6th price FTW!) - it's really not worth it. Just so much random junk, IMO.

[AmberVael]

They are more useful in theoretical discussion, but one needs to cut through all the cheese to get to what a class really is. It's a bit like Wallop, cheese for everyone, but monk getting a bit more out of it than the fighter/barbarian because of the underlying class feature; or a bit like comparing two chargers: both will take the most powerful feats like headlong rush, but the fighter class features will let him take extra stuff like blindfight and imp.initiative, whereas monk/barbarian can't.

If you're saying what I think you're saying, I disagree with that. As you agreed with me earlier, typically a larger base damage is useless- which is the aspect you were optimizing. Truly, the only real reason Greater Wallop works so well for the monk is not because of their overly large damage die, but because they do the same amount of base damage as everyone else (well, once they reach higher levels) with a smaller weapon. Otherwise Wallop would just cap for them more swiftly like it does for everyone else.
However, without such a spell, a smaller weapon that deals the same damage as everyone else isn't such a big deal. You can't dual wield it- it's your body. You can't use it as a two handed weapon either. The only real advantage you get is flurry, which other classes can typically emulate in their own fashion.
(Two weapon fighting tree will end up giving you more attacks than the monk, for example, or perhaps the whirling rage barbarian variant would work as well. Hell, even a ranged fighter can do it with Rapid Shot.)

As such, we can see that cutting through the cheese in this situation proves that Monks don't truly have the advantage in the area you were able to optimize on. Tell me how having a smaller sized weapon (namely a fist) is going to aid you in way other than greater wallop (or wallop).
Really, it doesn't.

[Solo]

Solo - you're not going to get an answer, just face it. Some might even say that there was none. :smallfrown: :smallamused:



Nonsense.

I am sure that there is a good explaination for why emeraldstreak was refused to respond to me.

It would, after all, be out of his character to lie so blatantly about something so easily verifiable.

I am sure he can account for his actions, so as not to severely damage his credibility in this discussion.

Eagerly awaiting emeraldstreak's reply, so that I, Solo, may be cured of my ignorant and poor-powergaming ways,

Solo

[Signmaker]

ps. I apologise for my failing memory, but did emeraldstreak tell us the ruling was in the MiC before or after we told him none of us owned the MiC?

I don't believe we as a group actually told him one way or another.

Be wary of psuedo-strawmans, valiant warrior.

[Solo]

I don't believe we as a group actually told him one way or another.

Be wary of psuedo-strawmans, valiant warrior.

There was a time when he referenced the MiC, then all subsequent posters told him to quote from it, as they themselves either did not own it or could not find the relevant portion.

So, hmm.... I guess it was before.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

As regards MIC. I own it, if I could get a page number, I could tell you guys about it.

2) I disagree Illiterate, it does several nice things:

a) Provides various items with useful abilities that fit specific characters more:
Dagger thrower gets gloves that create daggers as a free action so he doesn't need 4-12 returning daggers. Or the Lockdown character gets bracers that provide 3 extra AoO a day and give a +2 to AoO attacks. There are lots of things like that.

b) Provides comparable items for characters that otherwise missed out, Memento Magics are Pearls of Power for Sorcerers, Runestaves are spells know for Sorcerers. Very useful, an IMO needed items.

c) Provides item stacking rules much better then Core DMG. All "base items" that are viewed as requirements can be added on to items at normal price instead of 1.5 times. This is really needed, You shouldn't have to choose between a Ring of Protection and something actually worth a Ring slot, and now you don't. Or choose between Con or Wis as a Monk/Cleric/Paladin. Now you can get both without paying much more. I like this change.

3) Other things that I forgot. Anyway, not to say it's essential, but MIC is useful, and it would be nice to have some information about this supposed ruling on Partially charged wands.

[Solo]

As regards MIC. I own it, if I could get a page number, I could tell you guys about it.


Emeraldstreak, you do't even have to spend time quoting the relevant portion of the MiC anymore. Just give us the page number and we'll grab the text for ourselves.

[Illiterate Scribe]

2) I disagree Illiterate, it does several nice things:

a) Provides various items with useful abilities that fit specific characters more:
Dagger thrower gets gloves that create daggers as a free action so he doesn't need 4-12 returning daggers. Or the Lockdown character gets bracers that provide 3 extra AoO a day and give a +2 to AoO attacks. There are lots of things like that.

b) Provides comparable items for characters that otherwise missed out, Memento Magics are Pearls of Power for Sorcerers, Runestaves are spells know for Sorcerers. Very useful, an IMO needed items.

c) Provides item stacking rules much better then Core DMG. All "base items" that are viewed as requirements can be added on to items at normal price instead of 1.5 times. This is really needed, You shouldn't have to choose between a Ring of Protection and something actually worth a Ring slot, and now you don't. Or choose between Con or Wis as a Monk/Cleric/Paladin. Now you can get both without paying much more. I like this change.

3) Other things that I forgot. Anyway, not to say it's essential, but MIC is useful, and it would be nice to have some information about this supposed ruling on Partially charged wands.

Meh ... I suppose that when I saw it, I was mentally comparing it to the SpC. You have a point with Runestaves - I was thinking that they were from C.Arc.; but what struck me was the lack of nifty little functional items, like the cube of force, and other little titbits. It just seemed to have a ton of stuff that, well, was either too expensive or too cheap for my average play range.

[Dode]

Solo - you're not going to get an answer, just face it. Some might even say that there was none. :smallfrown: :smallamused:

Also, our group got a copy of MIC (1/6th price FTW!) - it's really not worth it. Just so much random junk, IMO. I like all my random junk in one book, as opposed to spread out in dozens of books. Same goes for SpC.

[Dode]

Anyways, since Emeraldstreak is terrible at arguments, I guess I'll have to post the only relevant entry a search of "wands" in a OCR backup scan (cough) of MIC.


USED WANDS
Particularly when equipping an NPC, affording a fully charged
wand can be difficult. Since the typical NPC won't have a
chance to use more than a few wand charges in any combat,
consider equipping such characters with partially used
wands—that is, wands with fewer than full charges. This is
also a good way to put a cheap wand into a treasure hoard,
and you can even allow PCs to select a wand or two this way
as well.

Hardly "RAW" as ES was claiming, more like "throwaway option offered to DMs at the tail-end of an obscure 'equipping NPCs tab'. Still yet to see how memorizing this obscure bit of ephemera reflects at all on ones' optimization-cred.

[emeraldstreak]

If you're saying what I think you're saying, I disagree with that. As you agreed with me earlier, typically a larger base damage is useless- which is the aspect you were optimizing. Truly, the only real reason Greater Wallop works so well for the monk is not because of their overly large damage die, but because they do the same amount of base damage as everyone else (well, once they reach higher levels) with a smaller weapon. Otherwise Wallop would just cap for them more swiftly like it does for everyone else.
However, without such a spell, a smaller weapon that deals the same damage as everyone else isn't such a big deal. You can't dual wield it- it's your body. You can't use it as a two handed weapon either. The only real advantage you get is flurry, which other classes can typically emulate in their own fashion.
(Two weapon fighting tree will end up giving you more attacks than the monk, for example, or perhaps the whirling rage barbarian variant would work as well. Hell, even a ranged fighter can do it with Rapid Shot.)

As such, we can see that cutting through the cheese in this situation proves that Monks don't truly have the advantage in the area you were able to optimize on. Tell me how having a smaller sized weapon (namely a fist) is going to aid you in way other than greater wallop (or wallop).
Really, it doesn't.

Unarmed strike is not "smaller" than weapons in DnD 3.5, it is a light weapon of the size of the creature wielding it. Similarly, a great club is a two-handed weapon the size of the creature wielding it.

Therefore

normal size unarmed strike 2d10 -> 4d8 large -> 6d8 huge -> 8d8 gargantuan -> 12d8 collossal

normal size greatclub 1d10 -> 2d8 large -> 3d8 huge -> 4d8 gargantuan -> 6d8 collossal

difference is 6d8, or 27 damage per hit


Monks can also use the two-weapon fighting tree with unarmed strikes, according to DnD FAQ, so your number of attacks argument is invalid as well.

[lord_khaine]

1d8+con mod HP is enough for frontliners in your games?

1d8+con is just 1 hp per level away from 1d10+con, the traditional die of the fronliner.
thats hardly a big difference, and with a decent ac i have found it to work fine.

[Cainen]

They are combat centric games. Doesn't mean you can't use DnD for whatever you want, but about 70 to 80% of the core books is all combat related; If you wanna stick to non-combat, why not find a system built for non-combat?

Games for those are... quite a bit rarer, and not everyone wants to GM all the time. 3.5 games(and d20 games in general) are a dime a dozen, with actually good political dramas or games that delve into the philosophical exceptionally rare. In fact, the last time I actually saw those related to D&D was AD&D 2E, and it certainly wasn't a standard setting being used.

Considering how I've been waiting for a few years now for a good Shadowrun 3 game, a good Planescape game, or a decent GURPS game and have received none, it's fair game to state that.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

1d8+con is just 1 hp per level away from 1d10+con, the traditional die of the fronliner.
thats hardly a big difference, and with a decent ac i have found it to work fine.The difference is most frontliners can afford to care a lot more about con than a monk. A traditional fighter has Str, Con, and maybe Dex. Maybe not. Most monks need Str, Con, Dex, Wis, and can't afford to drop any of them. That translates into the fighter being able to focus his WBL on fewer stats, get higher stats in the first place, and overall just be better at what he does.

[Talic]

1d8+con is just 1 hp per level away from 1d10+con, the traditional die of the fronliner.
thats hardly a big difference, and with a decent ac i have found it to work fine.

Please post a level 1 stat distribution for a Human monk frontliner, 32 point build, and 28 point build.

Here are the fighter:
32:

Str 18
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 8


and 28:

Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Now, these characters are designed to take advantage of the power attack and Dodge/Mobility Tree, while having a competitive AC of 16 at level 1 (with chain shirt), as well as a +4 to +5 to hit, and +3 con mod. In both instances, I would go for Dodge, Mobility, and Weapon Focus at level 1, likely Power Attack at level 2. This puts AC at 17-21, level 1 HP (assume max 1st HD) of 13, and an attack of +5 to +6. With shield, it would be AC 19-23, and damage at 1d8+3 to 4. Without, AC 17-21, and damage 2d6+4 to 6.

Awaiting your core stat distribution of monk for Frontliner comparison.

Now, I'm willing to concede to you that your build will have a better Will save. Will also almost certainly have a slightly better reflex. Fort's gonna be neck and neck, but the fighter will likely edge it out, barring feats.

How many CR 1-3 encounters in the MM focus have attacks that use will saves? Reflex? Not many, and most will pull them from the PHb, either from the enchantment/charm school, or the Necromancy school.

Will isn't as essential at these levels, and by the time it is, the fighter can make his somewhat competitive. The goal isn't to be the best at everything. I'll concede that the monk has an edge in one important save, and one less important save. Fighter seems to have his number on EVERYTHING else.

[Telonius]

Unarmed strike is not "smaller" than weapons in DnD 3.5, it is a light weapon of the size of the creature wielding it. Similarly, a great club is a two-handed weapon the size of the creature wielding it.

Therefore

normal size unarmed strike 2d10 -> 4d8 large -> 6d8 huge -> 8d8 gargantuan -> 12d8 collossal

normal size greatclub 1d10 -> 2d8 large -> 3d8 huge -> 4d8 gargantuan -> 6d8 collossal

difference is 6d8, or 27 damage per hit


Monks can also use the two-weapon fighting tree with unarmed strikes, according to DnD FAQ, so your number of attacks argument is invalid as well.

Greatsword would be a better weapon to compare than Greatclub. 2d6 increases to 8d6 colossal. That's an average of 28 damage, instead of 27 for the Greatclub. So the difference is 26 damage per hit - but that's unmodified. Add in power attack, specialization, and magic, and the difference is not as pronounced. By level 20, it's reasonable that the weapon would be +5, so that's another 5. Power attack for 10 would increase the greatsword's damage by 20, and the fighter would have his attack bonus down to the Monk's. If you go weapon specialization (a subpar feat choice, from everything I've heard), that's another four damage. So, we're up to 29 damage already - three more thank the Monk's.

[Nebo_]

Greatsword would be a better weapon to compare than Greatclub. 2d6 increases to 8d6 colossal. That's an average of 28 damage, instead of 27 for the Greatclub. So the difference is 26 damage per hit - but that's unmodified. Add in power attack, specialization, and magic, and the difference is not as pronounced. By level 20, it's reasonable that the weapon would be +5, so that's another 5. Power attack for 10 would increase the greatsword's damage by 20, and the fighter would have his attack bonus down to the Monk's. If you go weapon specialization (a subpar feat choice, from everything I've heard), that's another four damage. So, we're up to 29 damage already - three more thank the Monk's.

Greatswords aren't bludgeoning, so they don't benefit from GMWallop. Greathammers on the other hand...

[AmberVael]

Argh. >.<
I hate it how I'm still trying to convert to 3.5. Things still mess with my head- this area especially.

Okay, but the point remains that their base damage isn't anything amazing unless you find something (like greater wallop) to take advantage of it.
And I don't read or pay attention to the DnD FAQ, so that explains why I didn't know about the TWF deal. Of course, the question comes down to- would the monk have the feats to spend on it, and would it really be worthwhile since they lose accuracy anyways? Neither of those concerns matter so much for say... a fighter, since they have 1) higher accuracy and 2) gobs and gobs of feats.
And yet, fighters are better off not using TWF anyways, as proven by countless builds- it's better off with Two handed weapons, which the monk can't get unless they use, say, the quarterstaff, which won't use their base damage. Though they can use flurry with it.


Tel: Greatsword doesn't work with mighty wallop. It has to be a bludgeoning weapon.
Use say... warmace. From complete warrior.

[Telonius]

Ah, didn't know that. Still, even with a Greatclub, you'd get two more damage than the monk.

[horseboy]

Of course, the question comes down to- would the monk have the feats to spend on it, and would it really be worthwhile since they lose accuracy anyways? If you combine it with stuff like intuitive strike, I took some rogue for sneak attack to get deft strike to negate armour. IF you get surprise, it'll work. Otherwise you're struggling hard.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi,

wow, page 30 reached...:smallcool:

A couple of remarks:

On the question whether in growing sizes a monk (eventually 2d10 base) or a meleer with 2d6 greatsword will do more damage, the answer is easy: It's the monk.

Then, Nebo's question on my wildshape/polymorphing comparison.


But polymorphing into one is just fine?

Yes. If you think that wildshape is not broken, so it also applies to polymorph and both are available.
If you think that wildshape is broken because of emulating effectively 9 levels of a melee creature, yes - then also polymorph is broken.
Your choice :smallsmile:



"The reason monk is underpowered has nothing to do with whether or not it can compete with the fighter in the role of front-liner, or with the ranger in the role of scout, or with the rogue in the role of skill monkey. The reason it is overpowered is because it takes more work (in terms of optimization)or better luck (in terms of better rolled stats) to do it. Sure, the monk can compete with the fighter on the front lines, but he has to have better stats, or put ranks into cross-class skills to do it. That or spend more time digging through sourcebooks for that one feat combo that makes you awesome (and hope the fighter doesn't do the same). So if you are more experienced gamer than the rest of your group, your monk will be great, because the rest of the party isn't optimized to the extent you are. If you rolled much better than the other players, your monk will be great, because you have lots of good stats to start with, giving you an edge. But if you are using point buy and playing with a bunch of folks that build solidly powerful characters and play just as smart as you do, you will not be as good as them, because the monk takes a higher level of optimization to contribute on an equal level."

Now, there is some truth to that - very insightful comment. Three points why I see it differently:

1. My point would be (also made further above in my last post) that it is not easier to MAKE a monk than a spellcaster or even a fighter, since the monk has so much less choices (only a few feats to choose from) at character creation and in advancing levels.

2. It's likely that it is more difficult to PLAY a monk so he can keep up, since he uses the special tactics (trip, grapple, stun, tumble) that are not exactly the usual damage-dealing stuff that rogues, fighters and barbarians do (note they can be built to do special combat maneuvers, but the monk while doing similar damage output eventually, is less of a damage-dealer by default). Additionally, the monk is strong on the defensive side, which many DMs often neglect somewhat since it is easier to fudge behind the screen (DM to Bob the fighter: "make a will save" Bob rolls a total of 13. "Awwww...quite low. Did I make it?" DM faced with the choice of having Bob play a rabbit fighter for the rest of the adventure: "Hmmm...yes! Nothing happens". Bob "Phew - now let me continue to smash the evil spell user with power attacking...and tell me again why we brought the monk?" :smallsmile: ).

3. In my view, spellcasters also fall in the category of being able to do a lot ACTIVELY, and they are often weak on the defense. Plus, their stuff rarely ever receives opposition (since a DM has to think up ways to counter magic without frustrating his spellcaster players), which leads to the impression that they are easy to play.

- Giacomo

[Frosty]

The question is: What incentive do enemies have to not ignore the monk? Other builds either do so much damage that they are a threat, or have mechanics that force enemies to stay still and deal with the tank. What can the Monk do to make himself a credible threat?

[Talic]

Hi,

wow, page 30 reached...:smallcool:

A couple of remarks:

On the question whether in growing sizes a monk (eventually 2d10 base) or a meleer with 2d6 greatsword will do more damage, the answer is easy: It's the monk.

Fallacy. Why do greatswords deal triple or quadruple the damage of longswords? Hint: the answer doesn't lie in 2d6 vs 1d8. The answer lies in 1 for 2 and 1 for 4 power attack. The answer lies in NON-variable damage. That's where the damage is, unless you can get a stupid large number of dice (remember, every 3.5 points of extra damage is like an extra d6 of damage.)

In this case 2d10 is not greater than 2d6. For example, what if that 2d6 weapon is Vicious? Now it's 4d6. Things like enchantability aren't really discussed in your "simple" answer, because the answer isn't as simple as you'd like it to be.


Then, Nebo's question on my wildshape/polymorphing comparison.



Yes. If you think that wildshape is not broken, so it also applies to polymorph and both are available.
If you think that wildshape is broken because of emulating effectively 9 levels of a melee creature, yes - then also polymorph is broken.
Your choice :smallsmile:

It doesn't emulate levels of creature. You keep your own base attack. You just get the physical stats. What makes polymorph worse than wild shape is the versatility. Wild shape won't turn you into a dragon, or a giant. Wild shape can't change you into a fey, a magical beast. Polymorph does all that, and more. THAT is the difference. Don't get me wrong, wild shape IS overpowered. Not on the same level as polymorph, but it is. What truly makes the druid a deadly trifecta is that it's a full caster with 3/4 base attack and a class granted morph and a companion. The three together mean that druid CAN do what you claim monk can.

By that, I mean: Anything, nearly.


1. My point would be (also made further above in my last post) that it is not easier to MAKE a monk than a spellcaster or even a fighter, since the monk has so much less choices (only a few feats to choose from) at character creation and in advancing levels.
Less feats, more choosing. You have to set the bar higher on what you're taking, because you have less you can take. Less choices is what makes it harder. You have to be more selective.


2. It's likely that it is more difficult to PLAY a monk so he can keep up, since he uses the special tactics (trip, grapple, stun, tumble) that are not exactly the usual damage-dealing stuff that rogues, fighters and barbarians do (note they can be built to do special combat maneuvers, but the monk while doing similar damage output eventually, is less of a damage-dealer by default). Additionally, the monk is strong on the defensive side, which many DMs often neglect somewhat since it is easier to fudge behind the screen (DM to Bob the fighter: "make a will save" Bob rolls a total of 13. "Awwww...quite low. Did I make it?" DM faced with the choice of having Bob play a rabbit fighter for the rest of the adventure: "Hmmm...yes! Nothing happens". Bob "Phew - now let me continue to smash the evil spell user with power attacking...and tell me again why we brought the monk?" :smallsmile: ).No, it's more difficult to play a monk because, if a fighter tries to trip or grapple, he can outperform a monk. No matter how much you disagree, you're not correct. Extra chances with low success = more failures. Extra need to invest in wisdom and dexterity = less strength. I'm sorry if you disagree. That won't make you right. It'll just make you wrong and repetitive. Further, Trip is a largely ineffective ability as characters progress through CR, as is stunning. Rogues will out tumble monks, though with the low DC, even monks can get up to parity at a reasonable level. That said, on the topic of fudging...

Generally, if there's a caster on the field (which shouldn't be more than 25% of encounters), and they have a choice between targeting the fighter with a Will save or a Wizard with a fort, what do they choose? Ah yes, here the fighter gets the shield the monk has always had. Safety through being less of a threat. Difference is, if the party's nothing but melee types, the monk will still be the last one targeted. I've never fudged a roll to protect players in any way other than dumb luck... Such as the Greataxe wielding barbarian who critted the level 1 (class doesn't matter here) for 3d12 + 21. Why doesn't Class matter? Because average damage is 40. That'll kill a max hit point dwarf barbarian with a 20 con, and diehard, in one hit. Not that that's possible in core only, but he'd still be insta killed in one hit if he had the toughness feat 4 times. That's where I fudge. Further, will saves against fighters are usually better spent on dominate than any form of poly (which grants a Fort save to resist). Showing again how unfamiliar you are with magic... Unless it's coming out of a wand, being UMD'd by a monk as a purely defensive buff.


3. In my view, spellcasters also fall in the category of being able to do a lot ACTIVELY, and they are often weak on the defense. Plus, their stuff rarely ever receives opposition (since a DM has to think up ways to counter magic without frustrating his spellcaster players), which leads to the impression that they are easy to play.
Wrong. A well-built mage can blind the entire enemy offense at level 1. Can be nearly undetectable at level 3. Can be out of reach of all melee at level 5. Can shapeshift at level 7. Can bring up a nigh impenetrable wall of force at level 9. The list goes on. The caster has defense. If he chooses it. Check out Solo's Sorceror Guide for more info on how to turn caster into Win.

[Nebo_]

Yes. If you think that wildshape is not broken, so it also applies to polymorph and both are available.
If you think that wildshape is broken because of emulating effectively 9 levels of a melee creature, yes - then also polymorph is broken.
Your choice

Except that Wildshape and polymorph are completely different. Wildshape is merely very powerful, while polymorph is outright broken. Restrictions on wildshape keep it managable, wildshape has no such restriction.

[Dode]

24 pages and the best Giacomo has is the same useless wizard mooch/infeasible cross-class UMD Polymorph build he was pushing 6 months ago?
Also, seems to think that the 2 extra average damage 2d10 has over 2d6 makes up for Str x 1.5 and double power attack modifier.

Sad.

[Sir Giacomo]

Sad indeed...


Fallacy. Why do greatswords deal triple or quadruple the damage of longswords? Hint: the answer doesn't lie in 2d6 vs 1d8. The answer lies in 1 for 2 and 1 for 4 power attack. The answer lies in NON-variable damage. That's where the damage is, unless you can get a stupid large number of dice (remember, every 3.5 points of extra damage is like an extra d6 of damage.)

In this case 2d10 is not greater than 2d6. For example, what if that 2d6 weapon is Vicious? Now it's 4d6. Things like enchantability aren't really discussed in your "simple" answer, because the answer isn't as simple as you'd like it to be.

Apparently you do not understand. For power attack, you'll need a two-handed weapon to really make it worthwhile. Now, I ask you, what kind of colossal +x weapons will the group normally be carrying around?
Meanwhile, the monk's gauntlets can be enchanted (as can his fists with holy weapon).
This is what emeraldstreak tries to tell you: no-one outdamages the monk when it comes to stacking size damage to the base damage dice.
And if you mean going beyond core to prove a monk is useless, you probably already know my answer.


It doesn't emulate levels of creature. You keep your own base attack. You just get the physical stats. What makes polymorph worse than wild shape is the versatility. Wild shape won't turn you into a dragon, or a giant. Wild shape can't change you into a fey, a magical beast. Polymorph does all that, and more. THAT is the difference. Don't get me wrong, wild shape IS overpowered. Not on the same level as polymorph, but it is. What truly makes the druid a deadly trifecta is that it's a full caster with 3/4 base attack and a class granted morph and a companion. The three together mean that druid CAN do what you claim monk can.

You mean, being able to shape into something powerful for HOURS is way less powerful than shaping into something somewhat (note that the good stuff of magical beast like SR or special qualities will not be gained with morph) even more powerful for MINUTES? Hmmm. Odd.
And funnily, you list all the incredible powers of the druid and wish to deny the non-casting classes like the monk the abiltiy to get the goodies as well (which polymorph would allow).
Now I would accept that you would think changing form to something huge with pounce, or AC bonuses etc. AT ALL is overpowered and thus should not be allowed in the game. But giving it to one class and denying it to all others is not a good idea imo.


By that, I mean: Anything, nearly.
Less feats, more choosing. You have to set the bar higher on what you're taking, because you have less you can take. Less choices is what makes it harder. You have to be more selective.

Yes.


No, it's more difficult to play a monk because, if a fighter tries to trip or grapple, he can outperform a monk.

Trip: Yes (provided feat advantage is used to that end)
Grapple:No (but you know that already, don't you. Short repetition: the only advantage of the fighter is BAB, which you can overcome at higher levels - where it matters - with divine power. no. of attacks, damage all are advantage monk).


No matter how much you disagree, you're not correct. Extra chances with low success = more failures.

Extra chances with lowER success = equal failures.
Multply that with higher grapple damage = monk better than fighter at grappling.
It's that easy.
And because of that, normally fighters will never even take unarmed strike/improved grapple in core until very high levels, if they have the feats to spare. Normally, at lower levels, they will take power attack and combat control, as well as archery feats, where they are best.


Extra need to invest in wisdom and dexterity = less strength.

Once again: monk MAD is a fallacy. A monk does not even "need" higher WIS than 8. And both classes make good use of high WIS and DEX (the first boosting key will saves plus adding to spot/listen, the second improving initiative and AC and tumble/ms/hide/ride.) The monk's ADVANTAGE -not a must- is to use WIS bonus as AC bonus, that's all.


I'm sorry if you disagree. That won't make you right. It'll just make you wrong and repetitive. Further, Trip is a largely ineffective ability as characters progress through CR, as is stunning. Rogues will out tumble monks, though with the low DC, even monks can get up to parity at a reasonable level.

Trip I already mentioned above as not that great vs opponents with tumble or opponents that have magic means to move. Stunning, of course, is much better, since it bypasses SR and thus works also great at high levels. And 1 round lost for the enemy, losing DEX bonus even, at high levels usually means he's toast.
Stunning fist by a monk is best served vs the BBEG from level 15 & up together with 3 more fort save vs:
- poison (monk is immune to that, coat his fists with it)
- quivering palm
- massive damage from fist (>=50; note also how having more attacks doing this kind of damage puts you ahead....like the monk)
4 Fort save-or-dies, all in one strike - not bad, eh? (only the monk can do that btw)


That said, on the topic of fudging...Generally, if there's a caster on the field (which shouldn't be more than 25% of encounters), and they have a choice between targeting the fighter with a Will save or a Wizard with a fort, what do they choose? Ah yes, here the fighter gets the shield the monk has always had. Safety through being less of a threat.

Close call. Who do you target as BBEG? Unarmed guy 1 wielding staff? Or unarmed guy 2 wielding staff (or wand). In this respect, the monk makes a great decoy. And you do not even need to use disguise of bluff checks for this.
Apart from this, you target weaknesses in the opponents, not weak opponents.


Difference is, if the party's nothing but melee types, the monk will still be the last one targeted.

Depends. Normally, if the monk is hiding/moving silently, he will not be targeted at all.


I've never fudged a roll to protect players in any way other than dumb luck...

Yes, of course you never have...:smallwink:


Such as the Greataxe wielding barbarian who critted the level 1 (class doesn't matter here) for 3d12 + 21. Why doesn't Class matter? Because average damage is 40. That'll kill a max hit point dwarf barbarian with a 20 con, and diehard, in one hit. Not that that's possible in core only, but he'd still be insta killed in one hit if he had the toughness feat 4 times. That's where I fudge.

I see. You fudge at high damage of monsters and npcs, but never at saves. Hmmm...


Further, will saves against fighters are usually better spent on dominate than any form of poly (which grants a Fort save to resist). Showing again how unfamiliar you are with magic... Unless it's coming out of a wand, being UMD'd by a monk as a purely defensive buff.

Ah, got that wrong! Or...not? To BECOME a rabbit (as in: mind of a rabbit), the figher WILL have to do a will save...(check also out the hilarious OOTS comic where it happens to V...).
Better luck next time trying to show I am "unfamiliar" with magic (in core, at least).


Wrong. A well-built mage can blind the entire enemy offense at level 1.

Entire enemy offense? How? (watch it: if the mage can do it, the monk can as well with a wand...:smallsmile: )


Can be nearly undetectable at level 3.

For x minutes per level. Yeah, that's earth-shaking. Enemy yawns, waits out buff. Rogue, monk, bard, barbarian and ranger look on incredously. Hide? Yes, er...WE can do that. 24/7.


Can be out of reach of all melee at level 5.

Excepting those who use the same trick and close in (the monk does it with movement enhancement boost to boost....). Hint: wands of Flying...boots of flying later...wings of flying even later...more flying buffs in between.
Ah, and again x min/level. Wait out buff...
Ah, and those pesky missile attacks...(and I love repeating it: wind wall is no use to flying casters, since the wall needs to be set on the ground).


Can shapeshift at level 7.

Wait...didn't you argue polymorph is out? If it's in (= not broken), then the monk has it as well (making most use of it, and definitely better use than any spellcaster).


Can bring up a nigh impenetrable wall of force at level 9.

Yes, nigh...excepting a stupid wand of blink. Or lower-level dimdoor effect (also "wand"able). Next.


The list goes on.

No, it does not. For every spell, a non-caster will have a defense, provided by the rules. Or name me ONE spell in core that a non-caster will not have defense against.


The caster has defense. If he chooses it. Check out Solo's Sorceror Guide for more info on how to turn caster into Win.

Not win, although highly entertaining good hints how best to play a sorcerer!

- Giacomo

[Vortling]

I have a question for you Giacomo. Are you considering MIC core? If not, which page in the DMG, PHB or MM says you can buy partially charged wands? Also how is your monk triggering those wands so early in his adventuring career?

[Reel On, Love]

This is pretty obtuse. real quickly, now:



You mean, being able to shape into something powerful for HOURS is way less powerful than shaping into something somewhat (note that the good stuff of magical beast like SR or special qualities will not be gained with morph) even more powerful for MINUTES? Hmmm. Odd.
Yes. It IS more powerful. Again, I'm telling you: compare a Warrior with Wild Shape and a Warrior with Polymorph. The latter has a lot more of everything--attack bonus, damage, AC, *options*.
Thre's a REASON everyone but you, even WotC, agrees Polymorph is so much stronger. That reason is that it can do so much, and the bonuses it gives are so vast. It's basically unlimited. Wild Shape is *very* limited--animals have a low AC, for example. The Druid's spells help fix that.


And funnily, you list all the incredible powers of the druid and wish to deny the non-casting classes like the monk the abiltiy to get the goodies as well (which polymorph would allow).
If the Monk could get Wild Shape, that'd be fine. Wild Shape is really powerful. It's a bad design and a bad mechanic--the PHB II Shapeshifting druid variant is MUCH better! But it's not gamebreaking. It's not Wild Shape that turns encounters into cakewalks, it's Wild Shape + Summoning + animal companion + spells. Polymorph does it all by itself.

You'll note there's a Wild Shape ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) variant. Nobody ever tries to say it's really powerful. Why? Because Wild Shape is good, but it's not good enough to make a character all by itself.


Now I would accept that you would think changing form to something huge with pounce, or AC bonuses etc. AT ALL is overpowered and thus should not be allowed in the game. But giving it to one class and denying it to all others is not a good idea imo.
Wild Shape is overpowered. But Wild Shape is not overpowered *in a vacuum*--a Warrior with Wild Shape would get slaughtered. Polymorph is. It's overpowered no matter who you apply it to.


And because of that, normally fighters will never even take unarmed strike/improved grapple in core until very high levels, if they have the feats to spare. Normally, at lower levels, they will take power attack and combat control, as well as archery feats, where they are best.
Fighter's won't take that stuff because grappling is a bad combat tactic, with the exception of humanoid non-grappler enemies who can't get out of it.


Once again: monk MAD is a fallacy. A monk does not even "need" higher WIS than 8. And both classes make good use of high WIS and DEX (the first boosting key will saves plus adding to spot/listen, the second improving initiative and AC and tumble/ms/hide/ride.) The monk's ADVANTAGE -not a must- is to use WIS bonus as AC bonus, that's all.
It's not a fallacy. A monk with WIS 8 has a bad AC. WIS is *nice* for the fighter, but only as a save-booster--that's it. Meanwhile, the monk's AC and Stunning Fist DCs both need WIS. The monk needs DEX for AC, too--so much so you rarely see STR-based monk. The fighter needs 13 DEX at most. The fighter needs 2 LESS CON than the monk for the same HP. The Fighter needs 13 INT only if he wants Improved Trip/Disarm... but you still haven't picked which four non-UMD skills your 10-INT monk has!

You can try to argue that the Fighter needs Dex for some skills, but that's completely disingenuous. The fighter needs Dex, Wis, etc much less than the monk. He gets less out of it.


Stunning fist by a monk is best served vs the BBEG from level 15 & up together with 3 more fort save vs:
- poison (monk is immune to that, coat his fists with it)
- quivering palm
- massive damage from fist (>=50; note also how having more attacks doing this kind of damage puts you ahead....like the monk)
4 Fort save-or-dies, all in one strike - not bad, eh? (only the monk can do that btw)
And the BBEG will be immune to all or most of it. Odds are your monk ISN'T doing 50 damage, BTW--I've yet to see a monk that actually does. Affordable poisons are a joke. Quivering palm is *once per week*, why are we even talking about it? And god forbid the monk misses! Oh, and crit immunity shuts this down as well as stunning fist.



Close call. Who do you target as BBEG? Unarmed guy 1 wielding staff? Or unarmed guy 2 wielding staff (or wand). In this respect, the monk makes a great decoy. And you do not even need to use disguise of bluff checks for this.
Apart from this, you target weaknesses in the opponents, not weak opponents.
Odds are that any intelligent opponent can tell the party apart--hell, what items they've got (the wizard will have his rods, he'll need an easy-access component pouch) and how strong they look (the monk's build is obviously different from a wizard's".


Depends. Normally, if the monk is hiding/moving silently, he will not be targeted at all.
Ah, right. The patented "sit the encounter out" strategy.


Ah, got that wrong! Or...not? To BECOME a rabbit (as in: mind of a rabbit), the figher WILL have to do a will save...(check also out the hilarious OOTS comic where it happens to V...).
Better luck next time trying to show I am "unfamiliar" with magic (in core, at least).
He'd have to fail a fort save *first*. Good luck with that.


Entire enemy offense? How? (watch it: if the mage can do it, the monk can as well with a wand...:smallsmile: )
Yes, the wand of Sleep or Color Spray the monk buys. At level 1. And can somehow UMD consistently (as opposed to failing like 70% of the time). And that has a save DC 11 instead of 16-17.
Yeah, the monk sure can do it.


For x minutes per level. Yeah, that's earth-shaking. Enemy yawns, waits out buff. Rogue, monk, bard, barbarian and ranger look on incredously. Hide? Yes, er...WE can do that. 24/7.
The enemy "waits out the buff"? Man, does that ever happen in real D&D? "The enemy runs away. Just as your buff runs out they come back".
How are they waiting out the buff if you're getting away from them, or past them? In what circumstance would they have the *opportunity* to wait out Invisibility? When they chased a wizard into an alleyway? And they'd somehow assume he's invisible rather than flown away or etc?


Excepting those who use the same trick and close in (the monk does it with movement enhancement boost to boost....). Hint: wands of Flying...boots of flying later...wings of flying even later...more flying buffs in between.
Right, that Wand of Flying the monk can afford at fifth level... what? When does he buy Boots of Flying, again? How has he been spending his wealth at that point?

How does this monk just happen to have a wand of everything he needs, anyway? I thought it was just the important buffs.
What happens when he has to *use them in combat*? He still fails his UMD check half the time at level 5!

Before, you used to say that the monk only buys wands of a couple of buffs and uses them rarely. Apparently, he's now using all sorts of different wands all the time!


Ah, and again x min/level. Wait out buff...
Ah, and those pesky missile attacks...(and I love repeating it: wind wall is no use to flying casters, since the wall needs to be set on the ground).
This is getting RIDICULOUS. Giacomo, maybe you don't know this, but THINGS HAPPEN DURING FIGHTS. They're not just broken off after someone casts a spell. The wizard flies up, but his friends are *still attacking*. Even if the enemies have ranged attacks they can hit with and all pull out their bows and drop their swords... the fighter/barbarian, rogue, and cleric/druid are all killing them in the meantime. The wizard casts mirror image and then takes total defense actions and wins the encounter for the party by making the enemy not do anything other than try to hit him, apparently.

As for Wind Wall, you can shape it in any continuous *path* along the ground. The path it takes has to be traceable on the ground--as in, the wall can't be horizontal. The wall itself can be up in the air.


Yes, nigh...excepting a stupid wand of blink. Or lower-level dimdoor effect (also "wand"able). Next.
Lower-level dimension door effect? Dimension Door is level FOUR. If the enemies are hauling wands of it around to counter Wall of Force, that's not just patently ridiculous--it means the party's RICH. Same for the wand of blink...
...which does nothing, because force effects exist in the ethereal plane. Can't blink through them.


No, it does not. For every spell, a non-caster will have a defense, provided by the rules. Or name me ONE spell in core that a non-caster will not have defense against.
What you're missing here is that the non-caster will *possibly* have a *potential* defense. The caster can just load up on a bunch of spells. You don't just have to pay for the counters you're going to use, you have to pay for your UMD, and for all the counters you *might possibly need*.
Level 7 WBL is 13,000. Where's your wand of Fly coming from, again?

Oh, and Maze.

[Nebo_]

Sad indeed...

Apparently you do not understand. For power attack, you'll need a two-handed weapon to really make it worthwhile. Now, I ask you, what kind of colossal +x weapons will the group normally be carrying around?
Meanwhile, the monk's gauntlets can be enchanted (as can his fists with holy weapon).
This is what emeraldstreak tries to tell you: no-one outdamages the monk when it comes to stacking size damage to the base damage dice.

Except that the fighter can do that too, and he has power attack with a two handed weapon.



You mean, being able to shape into something powerful for HOURS is way less powerful than shaping into something somewhat (note that the good stuff of magical beast like SR or special qualities will not be gained with morph) even more powerful for MINUTES? Hmmm. Odd.

You don't need the stuff like SR and Su. abilities to make polymorph broken, it's just that good. Minutes or hours... who cares? It lasts for the encounter, that's enough.


Now I would accept that you would think changing form to something huge with pounce, or AC bonuses etc. AT ALL is overpowered and thus should not be allowed in the game. But giving it to one class and denying it to all others is not a good idea imo.


Fine, use a shapeshift druid. It's still better than a monk.



Trip: Yes (provided feat advantage is used to that end)
Grapple:No (but you know that already, don't you. Short repetition: the only advantage of the fighter is BAB, which you can overcome at higher levels - where it matters - with divine power. no. of attacks, damage all are advantage monk).

Have you addressed the issue of your Grapple monk being a one trick pony? When you specialise in grappling, none of your other tricks are viable. The 'good' monk grappler shown before had negligible mental stats, so couldn't load up on all those skills you like so much. Besides, grappling isn't even that good of a tactic. Deny yourself dex to AC and the ability to threaten squares? You might as well just kill yourself and get it over with.



Extra chances with lowER success = equal failures.

Sounds like flurry of blows...



Once again: monk MAD is a fallacy. A monk does not even "need" higher WIS than 8. And both classes make good use of high WIS and DEX (the first boosting key will saves plus adding to spot/listen, the second improving initiative and AC and tumble/ms/hide/ride.) The monk's ADVANTAGE -not a must- is to use WIS bonus as AC bonus, that's all.

Where are you getting your amazing AC from if you have no wisdom? You keep saying that the monk is fine without good stats, but all your examples have bonuses where we say monks need them. Be more consistent.



Trip I already mentioned above as not that great vs opponents with tumble or opponents that have magic means to move. Stunning, of course, is much better, since it bypasses SR and thus works also great at high levels. And 1 round lost for the enemy, losing DEX bonus even, at high levels usually means he's toast.


Like when you grapple...


Stunning fist by a monk is best served vs the BBEG from level 15 & up together with 3 more fort save vs:
- poison (monk is immune to that, coat his fists with it)
- quivering palm
- massive damage from fist (>=50; note also how having more attacks doing this kind of damage puts you ahead....like the monk)
4 Fort save-or-dies, all in one strike - not bad, eh? (only the monk can do that btw)


Poison is not a save or die, and the DCs suck so very much. Quivering Palm is once per week. Show me your core monk that does 50 damage a hit. The best you gave us was 49, and that was using cleric spells.



Entire enemy offense? How? (watch it: if the mage can do it, the monk can as well with a wand...:smallsmile: )

Wands can only be made up to 4th level. So more than half of what a mage can do, the monk cannot do with a wand.



For x minutes per level. Yeah, that's earth-shaking. Enemy yawns, waits out buff. Rogue, monk, bard, barbarian and ranger look on incredously. Hide? Yes, er...WE can do that. 24/7.

What? Have you actually played D&D. You cannot wait out minutes/level buffs in combat. 1 minute is 10 rounds. 10! Besides which, where are you going to wait? Will you ask the opponent to kindly sit down for a moment while his magic wears thin? Not to mention the fact that most of your builds don't merely make use of minute/level buffs or less, they rely on them.



Wait...didn't you argue polymorph is out? If it's in (= not broken), then the monk has it as well (making most use of it, and definitely better use than any spellcaster).

But not better than the competent melee class that he casts it on.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[lord_khaine]

Please post a level 1 stat distribution for a Human monk frontliner, 32 point build, and 28 point build.

i do belive i allready made such a guy for some monk test, he should be somewhere.

and what Are you trying to prove by jumping from the 2 most extreme points in the level range, 20 where the casters have taken completely over, and 1 where the full bab classes are at their strongest?

[Nebo_]

i do belive i allready made such a guy for some monk test, he should be somewhere.

It would be great if you could link that.



and what Are you trying to prove by jumping from the 2 most extreme points in the level range, 20 where the casters have taken completely over, and 1 where the full bab classes are at their strongest?

He's trying to prove that monks are not as good as the other classes. I thought that would have been obvious by now. It's good to get a comparison of what each class can do. Balance matters at every level.

[Sir Giacomo]

Except that the fighter can do that too, and he has power attack with a two handed weapon.

But, again: where does he get the two handed weapon from with all the enchantments? Or I may be mistaken here - does the two-handed weapon with all its enchantments grow with the fighter to colossal size from the non-core effect/spell you obviously mean? Then just list/desribe that non-core spell.
In core there are no such effects.


You don't need the stuff like SR and Su. abilities to make polymorph broken, it's just that good. Minutes or hours... who cares? It lasts for the encounter, that's enough.

And here I was thinking that people accused me for believing a 1/day divine power (also good for 1 encounter) would make a monk already stronger. :smallbiggrin: Apparently you think that a 1-encounter effect equals an hours-effect.


Fine, use a shapeshift druid. It's still better than a monk.

? I do not know the difference between shapeshift druid and a normal wildshape druid. Which rulebook is it from?


Have you addressed the issue of your Grapple monk being a one trick pony? When you specialise in grappling, none of your other tricks are viable. The 'good' monk grappler shown before had negligible mental stats, so couldn't load up on all those skills you like so much. Besides, grappling isn't even that good of a tactic. Deny yourself dex to AC and the ability to threaten squares? You might as well just kill yourself and get it over with.

Well, I leave it to lord_khaine to comment in detail on whether grappling is a good combat tactics or not (actually he already did it at length, only you keep ignoring it). Like all tactics, it depends on the situation. Vs several (wary) foes the monk faces alone, it may not be such a good idea...but what about tactics to overcome that problem? Like the vile eversmoking bottle, perhaps? This way you can take on your opponents one by one.
But most of the time, in an adventuring group, the ability to completely nail down the strongest opponent while the others fight the rest is pretty good.


Sounds like flurry of blows...

Yes?


Where are you getting your amazing AC from if you have no wisdom? You keep saying that the monk is fine without good stats, but all your examples have bonuses where we say monks need them. Be more consistent.

You can build a monk with WIS 8 completely focused on STR and grappling (when the own AC does not really matter. Take the deflect arrows feat to block missile attacks while you grapple). Or you could build a monk focused on diplomacy and CHR (like a great courtesan/spy) using the element of surprise to get that vital stunning fist in. The possibilities are vast.


Like when you grapple...

Huh? Here I was thinking you retain your DEX bonus vs the foe you grapple. And that is all that matters. If the odds are against you, see above.


Poison is not a save or die, and the DCs suck so very much.

Er...Drow poison? And at that level the DCs are irrelevant, it is the number of saves in one round that the opponent has to make - so eventually some low numbers are rolled.


Quivering Palm is once per week.

Yep. So you save it for that grand moment...:smallsmile:


Show me your core monk that does 50 damage a hit. The best you gave us was 49, and that was using cleric spells.

Hmmm. So just add a +1 luck bonus to that number from a prayer or morale bonuses from the group's bard singing or from good hope effects (storable in a wand).
And what is so horrible about using cleric spells? Those +4 swords the fighters wield are also made by spellcasters, so where is the difference?


Wands can only be made up to 4th level. So more than half of what a mage can do, the monk cannot do with a wand.

Well, it would be horrible if it was otherwise, wouldn't it? (do not forget scrolls and rings of spell storing, though).
And a monk, even with wands, is a far cry from having the raw spellpower a spellcaster usually has. How ironic that it is ME to have to jump to the defense of spellcasters for a change...:smallwink:


What? Have you actually played D&D.

No. I never have. I made it all up.


You cannot wait out minutes/level buffs in combat. 1 minute is 10 rounds. 10! Besides which, where are you going to wait? Will you ask the opponent to kindly sit down for a moment while his magic wears thin? Not to mention the fact that most of your builds don't merely make use of minute/level buffs or less, they rely on them.

Hmmm...let me see. Ways to control an encounter going against you (Because of superior/faster enemy buffs/enemy surprise) are:
- retreat with faster speed and the ability to hide.
- retreat with magical means like dimension door.

All of these are available to a monk, even without any items. Why not use it? Ah, I know...there are usually two weird objections to this:
1) the monk using his abilities for tactical play is "fleeing". A mage using them is "winning."
2) the group of the monk is not fast enough or does not have hiding potential to flee/hide/wait out buffs. Well, some examples:
...the monk can take along two comrades with his dimension door effect, so he can bring along the divine caster and the rogue, while batman can escape on his/her own.
...the monk APPEARING to flee (move, then move-action to hide) while the others remain can nicely surprise the enemy again (for instance, charge/grappling an enemy spellcaster who believes the group is now weaker).


But not better than the competent melee class that he casts it on.


Well, unfortunately this opinion is not backed up with the kind of facts I listed.
Once more, very short and concise: the monk retains ALL his class abilities, while ALL other classes have to give up some of their class advantages when they morph. It's really easy.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Apparently you do not understand. For power attack, you'll need a two-handed weapon to really make it worthwhile. Now, I ask you, what kind of colossal +x weapons will the group normally be carrying around?
Meanwhile, the monk's gauntlets can be enchanted (as can his fists with holy weapon).
This is what emeraldstreak tries to tell you: no-one outdamages the monk when it comes to stacking size damage to the base damage dice.
And if you mean going beyond core to prove a monk is useless, you probably already know my answer. And stacking size damage to base damage dice is neither the best or the only way to damage. The fighter has him beat on the power attack front, which puts him ahead. Take all of the factors into account before saying the monk is "outdamaging".


You mean, being able to shape into something powerful for HOURS is way less powerful than shaping into something somewhat (note that the good stuff of magical beast like SR or special qualities will not be gained with morph) even more powerful for MINUTES? Hmmm. Odd.
Yes. It's like renting a Honda for a day, or a limo for 2 hours.

And funnily, you list all the incredible powers of the druid and wish to deny the non-casting classes like the monk the abiltiy to get the goodies as well (which polymorph would allow).If by "the goodies", you mean full caster progression, yes, I'll admit that I believe that non-casters don't get caster progression.

Now I would accept that you would think changing form to something huge with pounce, or AC bonuses etc. AT ALL is overpowered and thus should not be allowed in the game. But giving it to one class and denying it to all others is not a good idea imo.And that's your right, to believe that what Wizards did was a bad idea.

Trip: Yes (provided feat advantage is used to that end)
Grapple:No (but you know that already, don't you. Short repetition: the only advantage of the fighter is BAB, which you can overcome at higher levels - where it matters - with divine power. no. of attacks, damage all are advantage monk).What I knew is that, without magical aid, and a lot of it, the monk will fail to grapple as well as an unaided fighter. Further, that unaided fighter will still be as effective after the divine power wears off.
Extra chances with lowER success = equal failures.
Multply that with higher grapple damage = monk better than fighter at grappling.
It's that easy. Oversimplification. Fighter's lower reliance on multiple stats to be effective means he'll have better strength, more items focused towards strength, and more nifty abilites that key off strength. Including grapple. This adds up to a significant difference, and when calculating multiplying odds, "more of this" and "less of that" rarely equals "equal chances". If that were the case, Statistics would be an elementary course, rather than a college level one. Further, higher grapple damage isn't very accurate. Take that 2d10 monk, versus a fighter with Gauntlets +5, flaming, frost, shocking, vicious, and merciful. Add 6d6+5 to his attack. To mimic this, the monk will have to give up his extra attack. Again, your oversimplifications are the only holes in your otherwise well-constructed arguement. They are holes however, which invalidate the arguement.

And because of that, normally fighters will never even take unarmed strike/improved grapple in core until very high levels, if they have the feats to spare. Normally, at lower levels, they will take power attack and combat control, as well as archery feats, where they are best.Rather than discuss what's "normal", let's stick with what's "allowed", shall we? After all, it's "normal" for monks to put a stat higher than 8 into wisdom, right?

Once again: monk MAD is a fallacy. A monk does not even "need" higher WIS than 8. And both classes make good use of high WIS and DEX (the first boosting key will saves plus adding to spot/listen, the second improving initiative and AC and tumble/ms/hide/ride.) The monk's ADVANTAGE -not a must- is to use WIS bonus as AC bonus, that's all.
Spot and listen are cross class for fighters, thus the advantage of that is mitigated. Further, you outline the benefits of wisdom for ALL players. The difference is, with monk, Wisdom directly affects the opponent's ability to hit him with sharp stabby things. That makes wisdom more important for a monk, as it does extra things. As for Dex and fighters, Fighters have an alternative way to high AC that won't benefit from higher dex. It's called armor. That's why fighters can give minimal attention to Dex, and still be effective.


Trip I already mentioned above as not that great vs opponents with tumble or opponents that have magic means to move. Stunning, of course, is much better, since it bypasses SR and thus works also great at high levels
It has a chance to work at high levels. This chance is low, as the enemies will most likely have Fort save to spare.


. And 1 round lost for the enemy, losing DEX bonus even, at high levels usually means he's toast.If it works, yes. One round under a full power attack from a well-designed fighter usually means he's toast, also.

Stunning fist by a monk is best served vs the BBEG from level 15 & up together with 3 more fort save vs:
- poison (monk is immune to that, coat his fists with it)
- quivering palm
- massive damage from fist (>=50; note also how having more attacks doing this kind of damage puts you ahead....like the monk)
4 Fort save-or-dies, all in one strike - not bad, eh? (only the monk can do that btw)Stunning Fist is about on par with poison, I'll give you that. Quivering palm has a similarly easy Fort save, at high levels. And 50 bonus damage assumes you a) hit, and b) get 50+ damage, and c) the rule isn't waived at high level play, as is recommended, and d) the bbeg doesn't pass the ridiculously easy fort save again.

Close call. Who do you target as BBEG? Unarmed guy 1 wielding staff? Or unarmed guy 2 wielding staff (or wand). In this respect, the monk makes a great decoy. And you do not even need to use disguise of bluff checks for this.Unarmed guy in the peak of physical fitness, holding himself with practiced calm, or unarmed guy, holding his staff unconfidently, much more frail of frame? Again, oversimplification proves your undoing. 16 strength looks different than 10. Get the die out, and roll the bluff check.

Apart from this, you target weaknesses in the opponents, not weak opponents.Which is why stunning fist is bad. The monk doesn't have a variety of attacks that target fort, ref, and will, attacks for both high and low AC foes, and the like. The monk's attacks are designed around fort saves, and low-mid ac opponents. He's unable to target weaknesses unless the enemy's weakness is "fort saves" or he has a low-mid ac.
Depends. Normally, if the monk is hiding/moving silently, he will not be targeted at all. In which case, the monk/wizard decoy is invalid. Further, there are many abilities ad mid-high level play that nullify hide. Scent, tremorsense, blindsense, blindsight, etc. Some exist at lower levels also. Also, hide/MS is situational. You need cover/concealment to do it, which means it's not guaranteed.

Yes, of course you never have...:smallwink: Snarky comments don't endear you to anyone. Please refrain from insinuating I'm dishonest without evidence to back that up.

I see. You fudge at high damage of monsters and npcs, but never at saves. Hmmm...Because saves are rolled by players. And DC's are listed in books. Can't fudge a roll I don't roll.

Ah, got that wrong! Or...not? To BECOME a rabbit (as in: mind of a rabbit), the figher WILL have to do a will save...(check also out the hilarious OOTS comic where it happens to V...).
Better luck next time trying to show I am "unfamiliar" with magic (in core, at least).Yes, Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) requires a will save... IF, and only if, the Fort save fails. Chances of a fighter failing a fort save? Low. That's not "targeting weaknesses". That would be why I stated you had an improper grasp of offensive magic.

Entire enemy offense? How? (watch it: if the mage can do it, the monk can as well with a wand...:smallsmile: ) At level 1? Obscuring Mist. Blocks all LoS at distances greater than 5 feet. WITHOUT choking someone out. Downside, personal only. No putting it in a wand for you, though the 2nd level Fog Cloud would be a viable target. Blocking LOS means that, with a 5 foot step, range attacks that defeat your AC have a 10% chance to hit (5 squares to choose from, 50% miss chance). Most spells require LoS, and blocking LOS prevents charges. Further, the concealment negates sneak attacks made on targets within the cloud. All in all, pretty effective for a level 1 spell, if used well.
For x minutes per level. Yeah, that's earth-shaking. Enemy yawns, waits out buff. Rogue, monk, bard, barbarian and ranger look on incredously. Hide? Yes, er...WE can do that. 24/7.Invis + wizard is a hard buff to wait out. Where do you go to wait? Some buffs, like Divine Power, can be waited out easily. But it's hard to avoid a foe you can't see. And if the wizard wants to use it to disengage, at a double move only, he's 600 feet away each minute. If there's anything that blocks LOS within 1800 feet, a level 3 wizard has just disengaged.
Excepting those who use the same trick and close in (the monk does it with movement enhancement boost to boost....). Hint: wands of Flying...boots of flying later...wings of flying even later...more flying buffs in between.
Ah, and again x min/level. Wait out buff...
And mobility buffs are hard to wait out. Again, if the wizard can find difficult terrain within 6000 feet (over a mile, at LEVEL 5), he can force climb checks or the like, if you intend to re-engage. If he's attacking, you better have a way to block LOS, and in some cases, LOE, or you're a sitting duck. Minutes is enough time for a wizard to drop every spell he has, and still get away.

Ah, and those pesky missile attacks...(and I love repeating it: wind wall is no use to flying casters, since the wall needs to be set on the ground).But he can be in the 4th increment, with a protection from arrows up. Or invisible. Or any of a number of other spells to defeat ranged attacks. Sigh, we give, and we take.

Wait...didn't you argue polymorph is out? If it's in (= not broken), then the monk has it as well (making most use of it, and definitely better use than any spellcaster).Polymorph is overpowered, yes. It's an example of what core specifically gives wizards at level 7, though. If you'd prefer, I can provide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm) other (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm) examples (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm).

Yes, nigh...excepting a stupid wand of blink. Or lower-level dimdoor effect (also "wand"able). Next.Which allows the monk to make no other attacks afterwards, whereas the wizard, again, can Fly over his barrier, forcing you to do it again. Further, you only have two wands in hand at a time. How many spells does a wizard have at his disposal? Answer: Monk loses.

No, it does not. For every spell, a non-caster will have a defense, provided by the rules. Or name me ONE spell in core that a non-caster will not have defense against.Trigger Object version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm)


Not win, although highly entertaining good hints how best to play a sorcerer!

Believe me, that post is pure, unadulterated Win. If you don't want to take my word for it, check the other numerous testimonials in the thread.

[PirateMonk]

No, it does not. For every spell, a non-caster will have a defense, provided by the rules. Or name me ONE spell in core that a non-caster will not have defense against.

How about Gate?

[Reel On, Love]

Hmmm...let me see. Ways to control an encounter going against you (Because of superior/faster enemy buffs/enemy surprise) are:
- retreat with faster speed and the ability to hide.
- retreat with magical means like dimension door.

All of these are available to a monk, even without any items. Why not use it? Ah, I know...there are usually two weird objections to this:
1) the monk using his abilities for tactical play is "fleeing". A mage using them is "winning."
2) the group of the monk is not fast enough or does not have hiding potential to flee/hide/wait out buffs. Well, some examples:
...the monk can take along two comrades with his dimension door effect, so he can bring along the divine caster and the rogue, while batman can escape on his/her own.
...the monk APPEARING to flee (move, then move-action to hide) while the others remain can nicely surprise the enemy again (for instance, charge/grappling an enemy spellcaster who believes the group is now weaker).


Why are you seriously defending this? The idea that you can just STOP A FIGHT and wait for the buffs to end (BTW: what happens to your like 5 wand buffs if you do this? Just wondering) is ridiculous. Where are you Diension Dooring that you won't be pursued? What happens if other people aren't within touch range? What happens if they just *chase* you?If the monk flees and hides, the enemies just keep fighting. You're sitting out several rounds.

I have NO idea how you got the idea, but you can't just stop fights and wait for 10 min/enemy level. The very idea is ridiculous. Can you really imagine sessions pausing as the party sits whereever they're hiding and the DM figures out what the enemy does during all that time (instead of, oh, finding the party, who's within like 1000 feet, and attacking)? And how could it possibly succeed, when the enemy can chase you?

[Talic]

Let's not forget...

Concerning stunning, by virtue of a creature's racial traits:

Creature types immune to Stunning: Construct, Elemental, Ooze, Plant, Undead.

Followup, creature types with strong Fort save: Animal, Dragon, Giant, Magical Beast, Outsider, Vermin

Creatures with neither: Aberration, Fey, Humanoid (possibly), Monstrous Humanoid.

This means that one third of all creature types are outright immune to the ability. A followup six have good resistance to the ability, due to a good fort save.

Finally, 3-4 types are actually vulnerable to stunning. I list it as such because humanoid is always based on class.

[Dode]

On the question whether in growing sizes a monk (eventually 2d10 base) or a meleer with 2d6 greatsword will do more damage, the answer is easy: It's the monk.
aahahahahaha

"Since it's unfeasible that colossal sized weapons are lying around, the Monk has a reliable damage source in larger sizes that other characters don't..."
...
"Why yes the only way my Monk penetrates DR is adamantine gauntlets. Why do you ask?"

Really, you're claiming that the 4 extra average damage that monks get at level 20 really makes up for strength and a half damage + double power attack modifier that everyone else gets?

I know people like to josh you on this, but have you actually played a game of D&D?

[Sir Giacomo]

Let's start the inevitable flow of different opinion.


aahahahahaha

"Since it's unfeasible that colossal sized weapons are lying around, the Monk has a reliable damage source in larger sizes that other characters don't..."
...
"Why yes the only way my Monk penetrates DR is adamantine gauntlets. Why do you ask?"

Really, you're claiming that the 4 extra average damage that monks get at level 20 really makes up for strength and a half damage + double power attack modifier that everyone else gets?

I know people like to josh you on this, but have you actually played a game of D&D?

I never even played - you caught me there.:smallsmile:

Seriously, just to help you understand:
- the monk can get the 2d10 base at level 15 with a monk's belt. Most monks will have that (cheap for that level) item.
- for the great power attack multiplier, you need two-handed weapons. Those weapons, with the usual enhancements, are difficult to carry around and even be of any use outside the min/level time where the fighter/barbarian/full BAB combatant has a morph up.
- once the divine power is up, the monk will be ahead with every BAB the full BAB class lower their attack for more power attack damage.
- And btw it's funny now how people are already accepting that the monk DOES more damage at high levels. That's already a long way from "monks...any good?"
- DR is not a big issue at those levels. You can get low-level spells (from wands or fellow casters or spell storing) to provide you with the DR-overcomer you need. And with a monk able to do 50 damage/per hit (WITHOUT even deducing from his BAB, and with THREE highest BAB attacks as opposed to the full BAB classes ONE), DR can even be ignored in most circumstances.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

I never even played - you caught me there.


I'm going to bow down to your superior knowledge of DnD, as evidenced by your lack of experience with DnD.


Seriously, at least I've played in parties with a monk before...

[Sir Giacomo]

Why are you seriously defending this? The idea that you can just STOP A FIGHT and wait for the buffs to end (BTW: what happens to your like 5 wand buffs if you do this? Just wondering) is ridiculous. Where are you Diension Dooring that you won't be pursued? What happens if other people aren't within touch range? What happens if they just *chase* you?If the monk flees and hides, the enemies just keep fighting. You're sitting out several rounds.

You cannot be serious with this, can you? No wonder you believe in magic overpoweredness, if this has never happend in your games.
If your comrades are outside touch range, you delay your action (shout your intention as free action) and they will move to you, then you dimdoor.
And why again is it a viable option for a wizard to use dimdoor out of trouble and not for a monk?
The enemies cannot "just keep up fighting" - because who will they be fighting? And as I outlined before, if just the monk moves/hides on his turn, he can be back with a vengeance in the next round when the enemy has made a mistake (opening). Would you deny the entire basis for a class devoted to fight with stealth (the rogue)? Thought so. Why then deny this to the monk?


I have NO idea how you got the idea, but you can't just stop fights and wait for 10 min/enemy level. The very idea is ridiculous. Can you really imagine sessions pausing as the party sits whereever they're hiding and the DM figures out what the enemy does during all that time (instead of, oh, finding the party, who's within like 1000 feet, and attacking)? And how could it possibly succeed, when the enemy can chase you?

Yes, ridiculous. Enemy attacks you when you're unprepared. Party wizard warns the others "enemy full of buffs" (which is also obvious since they are enlarged, or are moving hasted etc.). If said party wizard or the group is out of debuffing, you flee. What is "ridiculous" about that?

And one of the great aspects of roleplaying games which you apparently ignore is that you can manipulate time to your liking. It will take 5 minutes of ACTUAL time for the group to simply retreat/hide for some hours GAME time and then strike again at the enemy when THEY (the group) are prepared.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Seriously, at least I've played in parties with a monk before...

And you have never seen how he grappled? :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

[Solo]

And one of the great aspects of roleplaying games which you apparently ignore is that you can manipulate time to your liking. It will take 5 minutes of ACTUAL time for the group to simply retreat/hide for some hours GAME time and then strike again at the enemy when THEY (the group) are prepared.

The enemy never tries to pursue you?



And you have never seen how he grappled? :smallsmile:



Poorly.

[Sir Giacomo]

How about Gate?

Easy. Flee. Wait out gate's duration. Come back.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Easy. Flee. Wait out gate's duration. Come back.

- Giacomo

Gate isn't an attack spell, it's a spell that summons something nasty to kill things for you.

[Morty]

And one of the great aspects of roleplaying games which you apparently ignore is that you can manipulate time to your liking. It will take 5 minutes of ACTUAL time for the group to simply retreat/hide for some hours GAME time and then strike again at the enemy when THEY (the group) are prepared.

- Giacomo

Ah, so for casters and non-casters to be balanced DM has to manipulate in-game time? Yeah, balance needs DM fiat, sure. But we all know that already.

[Collin152]

Gate isn't an attack spell, it's a spell that summons something nasty to kill things for you.

Cast it to summon them from some other plane. They are now somewhere they do not want to be that you had plenty of tiem to prepare for them.

[PirateMonk]

Easy. Flee. Wait out gate's duration. Come back.

- Giacomo

Actually, I was thinking that the caster would Gate in the noncaster and order them to fail all saves and not resist you killing them. Calling, unlike Dominating, has no qualifier about not performing obviously lethal tasks.

[Collin152]

Actually, I was thinking that the caster would Gate in the noncaster and order them to fail all saves and not resist you killing them. Calling, unlike Dominating, has no qualifier about not performing obviously lethal tasks.

Ah, I forgot the commanding part. Even worse.

On the less-cheesy side...
Honestly though, how does a monk evade a Demon? As I recall, most/all get to Greater Teleport at will.

[Reel On, Love]

Seriously, just to help you understand:
- the monk can get the 2d10 base at level 15 with a monk's belt. Most monks will have that (cheap for that level) item.
- for the great power attack multiplier, you need two-handed weapons. Those weapons, with the usual enhancements, are difficult to carry around and even be of any use outside the min/level time where the fighter/barbarian/full BAB combatant has a morph up.
Are "difficult to carry around"? No, they're not! You just strap'em to your back like the fighter does with his normal 4 weapons! If you don't like that, because dragging around multiple/big weapons is kinda goofy, put them in the Bag of Holding. It's just a move action to get'em out.

- once the divine power is up, the monk will be ahead with every BAB the full BAB class lower their attack for more power attack damage.
Ah, yes, the Divine Power that you're using every fight, but refuse to accept you might need more than a single wand for. Once it's up, the monk still isn't ahead. He has lower STR--you know how your example monk never has any stat above 14? Fighters/barbs start with at least 16 STR. Half-orc or skipping INT can make that 18. Then there's Weapon Focus, GWF, WS, GWS, which core fighters have nothing better to do than take.
Oh, and let'snot forget the 1.5x STR multiplier.


- And btw it's funny now how people are already accepting that the monk DOES more damage at high levels. That's already a long way from "monks...any good?"
He doesn't actually do more damage. he has a bigger base damage die. Very different.


- DR is not a big issue at those levels. You can get low-level spells (from wands or fellow casters or spell storing) to provide you with the DR-overcomer you need. And with a monk able to do 50 damage/per hit (WITHOUT even deducing from his BAB, and with THREE highest BAB attacks as opposed to the full BAB classes ONE), DR can even be ignored in most circumstances.

- Giacomo
DR is ABSOLUTELY a big issue. That's 5 to 15 damage off of every attack (which hurts the monk more than others, incidentally).

You CAN'T get low-level spells all the time. Material DR? No spells for that. Align Weapon? Oh, so your monk has a wand of Align Weapon, too? Or he's storing it instead of Divine Power? Somehow, you never seem to account for this. It's easy to say "get a wand to do it". It's not easy to actually get a wand for everything and use it all the time.

Wow, Giacomo. Your answer to EVERYTHING is "add more wands". WHEN ARE YOU USING THEM ALL? How are you affording them all?
God, what happens if some demons jump you, teleporting in? Do you spend four rounds fiddling with wands of Divine Power, Enlarge Person, Align Weapon, and apparently Blink or Mirror Image or something too?


It is HI-LARIOUS, the way you absolutely refuse to accept that your monk will ever have a fight start without getting the time to put any buffs he wants up. Meanwhile, the rest of us play actual D&D, where buff time is rare--why do you think clerics all take Quicken? Why would they bother Quickening things if the party could see every fight coming?



You cannot be serious with this, can you? No wonder you believe in magic overpoweredness, if this has never happend in your games.
If your comrades are outside touch range, you delay your action (shout your intention as free action) and they will move to you, then you dimdoor.
And why again is it a viable option for a wizard to use dimdoor out of trouble and not for a monk?
Has this REALLY happened in your games? *WHY* didn't the enemies *CHASE* you?

The monk' Dim-Door is once/day. So what do you do during your second fight?
What if your comrades don't want to run away all the time?
BTW, your DDoor CL is HALF your monk level. So when you get it, you cast it at a CL of 6. You can go 740 feet and bring 2 people.
Lots of things can cover 740 feet in a run action or two.

The wizard comparison is where you again show your total bias and the way you don't think thins through. The wizard doesn't use Dimension Door to go away and wait out the enemy's buffs--he uses it to get out of grapples, to not get full attacked, etc.


The enemies cannot "just keep up fighting" - because who will they be fighting? And as I outlined before, if just the monk moves/hides on his turn, he can be back with a vengeance in the next round when the enemy has made a mistake (opening). Would you deny the entire basis for a class devoted to fight with stealth (the rogue)? Thought so. Why then deny this to the monk?
Maybe you've never played with a rogue, but what they DON'T do is spend two round moving away and hiding, then moving back in, then moving away, etc, because that would mean they're barely contributing anything.

During fights, rogues tend to flank a lot. They don't tend to move away, hide, then the next round move back and get a single attack.
And that's assuming there's somewhere to hide. Not always the case.
The enemies just keep fighting the rest of your party.
And if you managed to D-Door everyone away, they chase you.

Seriously, your reason for why enemies can't wait out YOUR wand buffs is that you'll chase them, right? Why can't enemies do the same thing to your party?

Imagine that your monk is fighting a demon. Easy, right? Except that he sees you glowing with divine power, Enlarged, etc, and teleports away! Then two minutes later he comes back. What do you do? Spend more wand charges, this time as he's attacking?
Of course, demons don't act like that--they attack. Because acting like that would make all demon encounters 100% lame. "I hit it!" "It teleports away. Oh, and since this is Giacomo World, it comes back healed, since it used Diplomacy to persuade an evil cleric to give it spellcasting services for free."
Boy, trading one hit a minute sure is fun.
But if "waiting out buffs" is a viable strategy, it can happen to you.
And your monk depends ENTIRELY on several short-term buffs. (Note how other characters don't. The cleric buffs in *one combat round*; the wizard's important buffs are long-term and he drops one short-term one at the start, at most. The barbarian can just charge in and fight.)


Yes, ridiculous. Enemy attacks you when you're unprepared. Party wizard warns the others "enemy full of buffs" (which is also obvious since they are enlarged, or are moving hasted etc.). If said party wizard or the group is out of debuffing, you flee. What is "ridiculous" about that?
What's ridiculous is that you can't always flee. The Wizard can teleport your party out, maybe--you know why? Because teleport goes *whereever you want*, not 800 feet away. He can teleport you to the middle of the desert where his Magnificent Mansion is still up, then teleport you back.
And he can't do that every fight. That's a contingency. It's a "whoops, we're all gonna die" move, not a "oh, the enemy has a couple spells on them" move.


And one of the great aspects of roleplaying games which you apparently ignore is that you can manipulate time to your liking. It will take 5 minutes of ACTUAL time for the group to simply retreat/hide for some hours GAME time and then strike again at the enemy when THEY (the group) are prepared.

- Giacomo
You come back. There's twice as many enemies, they got reinforcements.
You come back. The enemies aren't there. So much for beating them up.
You come back. The bad guys have killed their prisoners, burned down the building, sacked the town, completed the evil ritual, whatever.
And, what would happen 90% of the time... you dimension door away. A few rounds later, the enemies come charging up, still buffed.

But, fine, you Abundant Step your whole party (three other people? You must be a level 18 monk) away.
So what do you do next fight?



Easy. Flee. Wait out gate's duration. Come back.

- Giacomo
How do you flee from the teleport-at-will, high-move-speed outsider, exactly?
The one that acts before you do (gated creatures act on the same turn they're gated in on), and has long-range spells or SLAs, to boot?

[PirateMonk]

You come back. There's twice as many enemies, they got reinforcements.
You come back. The enemies aren't there. So much for beating them up.
You come back. The bad guys have killed their prisoners, burned down the building, sacked the town, completed the evil ritual, whatever.

Hasn't Giacomo argued in the past that a caster can't reliably rest in a Rope Trick to recover spells for exactly these reasons?

[Reel On, Love]

Hasn't Giacomo argued in the past that a caster can't reliably rest in a Rope Trick to recover spells for exactly these reasons?

Even though no enemies saw you cast the Rope Trick, or were chasing you when you did it, or etc, yes. Yes, he has.

Somehow, that doesn't apply to his running away. I wonder why?

[Sir Giacomo]

If by "the goodies", you mean full caster progression, yes, I'll admit that I believe that non-casters don't get caster progression.

Would be bad if they got that.


And that's your right, to believe that what Wizards did was a bad idea.

But they didn't. You see, EVERYone by the RAW gets access to polymorph. It's not even a personal range spell.


What I knew is that, without magical aid, and a lot of it, the monk will fail to grapple as well as an unaided fighter.

Yes, you KNEW it. But by now, after all the statistics have been presented to you, you should KNOW better.
Let's summarise FOUR areas of grapple success influence:
STR (equal, or if the fighter does not care about will save, listen, spot, DEX etc., more for the fighter)
BAB (fighter ahead)
No. of attempts (monk ahead)
Damage (monk ahead)
Sounds pretty even to me, at the very least. NOW enter...the divine power effect. Monk wins grapple. NOW enter that at low levels, the use a fighter gets out of two feats for improved grapple is pretty limited. And NOW also enter that a fighter needs to get HIGHER DEX than the monk (namely, 15) to even get and keep the improved grapple feat bonus while enlarged (precondition for feat: DEX 13, gets reduced by -2 in enlarged form). So in terms of grappling, we are definitely talking fighter MAD here.
Yes, monk is definitely a better grappler.


Further, that unaided fighter will still be as effective after the divine power wears off.

Whereas the monk all of a sudden collapses into nothingness? Now THAT is what I'd not even call oversimplification, but simply wrong. Do his defenses go away? His class abilities? No.


Fighter's lower reliance on multiple stats to be effective means he'll have better strength, more items focused towards strength, and more nifty abilites that key off strength. Including grapple.

As I showed above, actually the contrary is the case.


Further, higher grapple damage isn't very accurate. Take that 2d10 monk, versus a fighter with Gauntlets +5, flaming, frost, shocking, vicious, and merciful. Add 6d6+5 to his attack. To mimic this, the monk will have to give up his extra attack.

Hmm true, but how much more will the fighter have to pay for such a +10 weapon? Not to mention that the fighter will only have such a weapon around level 20, if at all (DMG recommends a quarter of your wealth going to single items, so at level 15 that is 50,000, barely a +5 total weapon. The monk gets it for a monk's belt, which the fighter also needs to get to even get 1d8 base damage. Monk ahead again.
A sane fighter likely will rather get a two-handed or missile weapon as his top weapon.


After all, it's "normal" for monks to put a stat higher than 8 into wisdom, right?

I never said that. I only said it is possible.


Spot and listen are cross class for fighters, thus the advantage of that is mitigated.

No, it would be great for a fighter to have a high WIS score to even get a chance to notice stuff going on around him in combat at all, in particular at the lower levels.


Further, you outline the benefits of wisdom for ALL players. The difference is, with monk, Wisdom directly affects the opponent's ability to hit him with sharp stabby things. That makes wisdom more important for a monk, as it does extra things. As for Dex and fighters, Fighters have an alternative way to high AC that won't benefit from higher dex. It's called armor. That's why fighters can give minimal attention to Dex, and still be effective.

Yes, but while doing so, they lower their initiative and hamper their missile attack department (where they can be the best of all classes due to their many feats).
But true, monks get out of having higher WIS, due to the synergy with stun and AC. This does not mean that the other (non-divine caster) classes should ignore the benefits of high WIS.


And 50 bonus damage assumes you a) hit, and b) get 50+ damage, and c) the rule isn't waived at high level play, as is recommended,

Where is that recommendation? I only know the PHB p. 145 entry, and the DMG offers variant (optional) rules for larger creatures.


Further, there are many abilities ad mid-high level play that nullify hide. Scent, tremorsense, blindsense, blindsight, etc.

But they have maximum RANGES. And it's difficult to get into range, if you do not know where the opponent is (remember, this use of hide was about someone wanting to GET AWAY and then hide). Hide is a powerful ability.


Snarky comments don't endear you to anyone. Please refrain from insinuating I'm dishonest without evidence to back that up.

OK. Sorry about that - it became clearer from your explanations what you meant.


Because saves are rolled by players. And DC's are listed in books.

Would you as a DM tell your players what DC the save has? How then keep up the suspense, if it's an effect that is uncertain/will only show later? For instance, a BBEG having charmed the group's rogue?



Can't fudge a roll I don't roll.

You can, by not telling the saving throw DC (which I so far believed is the norm).


Yes, Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) requires a will save... IF, and only if, the Fort save fails. Chances of a fighter failing a fort save? Low. That's not "targeting weaknesses". That would be why I stated you had an improper grasp of offensive magic.

OK, let us put the rabbit example to rest. We both apparently were a bit hasty in our remarks here.


At level 1? Obscuring Mist. Blocks all LoS at distances greater than 5 feet. WITHOUT choking someone out. Downside, personal only. No putting it in a wand for you, though the 2nd level Fog Cloud would be a viable target.

Oh, but you can put it into a wand. You're confounding it with the potion item...:smallsmile: You can bet the Giamonk has it :smallamused:


Blocking LOS means that, with a 5 foot step, range attacks that defeat your AC have a 10% chance to hit (5 squares to choose from, 50% miss chance). Most spells require LoS, and blocking LOS prevents charges. Further, the concealment negates sneak attacks made on targets within the cloud. All in all, pretty effective for a level 1 spell, if used well.

Wow, you just repeated one of the ways for the monk (and any non-caster) that I already mentioned as standard tactics vs spellcasters.
The problem for your wizard is:
1) the wizard has no move silently skill. So while he moves in the fog, the enemy will be able to pinpoint him easier than the Giamonk
2) 50% miss chance from 10ft, 25% from 5ft is not exactly what I'd call "entire enemy offense".


Invis + wizard is a hard buff to wait out. Where do you go to wait? Some buffs, like Divine Power, can be waited out easily. But it's hard to avoid a foe you can't see.

Problem: what does the invisible wizard do when the opponent has also hidden (and with the unlimited time kind, and not just 1 min/lvl)?
But true, the divine power buff can be waited out (only - you do not notice it at work as easily as, say, someone disappearing and still making sounds...)


And if the wizard wants to use it to disengage, at a double move only, he's 600 feet away each minute. If there's anything that blocks LOS within 1800 feet, a level 3 wizard has just disengaged.

Yes, and they SHOULD have those methods of escaping, since at those levels they are so extremely fragile.


And mobility buffs are hard to wait out. Again, if the wizard can find difficult terrain within 6000 feet (over a mile, at LEVEL 5), he can force climb checks or the like, if you intend to re-engage. If he's attacking, you better have a way to block LOS, and in some cases, LOE, or you're a sitting duck. Minutes is enough time for a wizard to drop every spell he has, and still get away.

You assume that the opponent has no means to fly as well, that there is enough space to fly to safety (in-door adventuring?), and, most importantly, that the wizard is able to defend continuously vs missile attacks.


But he can be in the 4th increment, with a protection from arrows up. Or invisible. Or any of a number of other spells to defeat ranged attacks. Sigh, we give, and we take.

But protection from arrows does not help vs magical arrows (as from a +1 bow) which tend to come up occasionally from level 5&up-
And invisibility is not providing you with the ability to "rain death" and still retain defense vs arrows, since you then get visible.
Sigh, looks like the wizard's defenses are good - but not as good as you think.


Polymorph is overpowered, yes. It's an example of what core specifically gives wizards at level 7, though. If you'd prefer, I can provide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm) other (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm) examples (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm).

Enervation does not have the power level of the others imo that I already listed. So if you see these three spells equal to polymorph, but would also consider polymorph broken, why then do you advocate using those spells for wizard/sorcerers?


Which allows the monk to make no other attacks afterwards, whereas the wizard, again, can Fly over his barrier, forcing you to do it again. Further, you only have two wands in hand at a time. How many spells does a wizard have at his disposal? Answer: Monk loses.

No, the wizard loses with this tactics. A wand of blinking and one of flying likely have more charges left than the wizard can keep up building walls of force from his daily repertoire. And the problem also is, that the wizard wastes a standard action for each wall of force, while the monk simply moves (ducks) under the wall of force and does his standard action to the wizard (he can even ready an attack for the wizard casting a spell). Yes. In that situation, definitely the wizard loses.


Trigger Object version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm)

Why does the "trigger object version" not allow a SR and no save? Can you not see it from the spell description? Because it is extremely unreliable for attacking someone (equal to the uncertainty surrounding saves and SR). This is also the reason why the rules mention explicitly that sympathy spell to make picking up the item more likely (which again necessitates a SR and save and is blocked by a mind blank entirely).


Believe me, that post is pure, unadulterated Win. If you don't want to take my word for it, check the other numerous testimonials in the thread.

Actually, you are right - I was even among those who highly praised it. But I do not see proof anywhere in there for anything a sorcerer can do that will with 100%, or even with consistent probability in all cases, allow a "win" against same level opponents.

- Giacomo

[ashmanonar]

Solo: 1 THey also carry more equptment, so tend to get slowed down more easily. 2: Yea, but "warrior people" are more inclined to see someone as a battle casualty or their job to be to fight. Like i said INCLINED not goign to 3: Yea, you could. Unless David Argall says he didn't really use the flat of his sword (lol.)


Um, what? Your logic is unfathomable.

1. On my barbarian, I NEVER go above light encumbrance. I take careful measure of what I carry, and I don't go over unless I'm carrying somebody. (In which case, the Monk would be slowed down as well, since they'd be over light encumbrance as well.)
2. Soldiers almost never leave behind their comrades. That is literally the motto of many modern corps; Leave noone behind. Most will carry (apparently) dead bodies out of the line of fire, rather than leave them.
3. ? Not even sure what you mean by that. I'll admit, using the flat of a sword is still likely (in real-world terms) to produce "lethal" wounds. But if the rules permit it, it's just as easy a way to knock out an opponent in that combat system then.

[PirateMonk]

Why does the "trigger object version" not allow a SR and no save? Can you not see it from the spell description? Because it is extremely unreliable for attacking someone (equal to the uncertainty surrounding saves and SR). This is also the reason why the rules mention explicitly that sympathy spell to make picking up the item more likely (which again necessitates a SR and save and is blocked by a mind blank entirely).

You could have a rogue exchange the trigger object with one of the monk's numerous wands.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, so for casters and non-casters to be balanced DM has to manipulate in-game time? Yeah, balance needs DM fiat, sure. But we all know that already.

You mean like the stuff he does when the casters run out of spells and the group retreats for the night?
Time manipulation has nothing to do with DM fiat, it's simply practical. Or do you play round per round in your campaigns?

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

You could have a rogue exchange the trigger object with one of the monk's numerous wands.

But then you'd be using someone else's class skills to show you are effective...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

[Collin152]

You could have a rogue exchange the trigger object with one of the monk's numerous wands.

That's not a bad idea.
Furthermore, what kind of Monk goes around all its life witha mindblank on? That can't be cheap.


But then you'd be using someone else's class skills to show you are effective...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

So do it yourself, dammit!
Cast invisibility and Silence!

[Solo]

Actually, you are right - I was even among those who highly praised it. But I do not see proof anywhere in there for anything a sorcerer can do that will with 100%, or even with consistent probability in all cases, allow a "win" against same level opponents.

To begin to see how OZYMANDIAS wins, let us consider his core spell list.


9:
Prismatic Sphere
Time Stop
Shades

/Gate


8:
Greater Prying Eyes
Greater Shadow Evocation
Mind Blank

/Irresistible Dance

7:
Spell Turning
Arcane Sight, Greater
Limited Wish


6:
Disintegrate
Dispel Magic, Greater
Herosim, Greater


5:
Feeblemind
Wall of Force
Telekinesis
Overland Flight or Persistent Image


4:
Enervation
Greater Invisibility
Resilient Sphere
Dimension Door


3:
Fly or Shrink Item
Slow
Stinking Cloud
Dispel Magic (replace with Explosive Runes)


2:
Resistance to Energy
Alter Self
See Invisibility (Replace at higher levels with? Rope Trick?)
Shatter
Invisibility (replace with Glitterdust)


1:
Protection from Evil
True Strike
Magic Missile
Grease
Shield or Mage Armor (Replace at higher levels with?)

You can clearly see that there are many nasty spells on here.

How are you going to counter all of these, and how much would it cost, in terms of feats, skill points and money?

[Reel On, Love]

And NOW also enter that a fighter needs to get HIGHER DEX than the monk (namely, 15) to even get and keep the improved grapple feat bonus while enlarged (precondition for feat: DEX 13, gets reduced by -2 in enlarged form). So in terms of grappling, we are definitely talking fighter MAD here.
Hey, Giacomo.
Didn't you suggest Enlarge Person for your monk, at all levels? So he could grapple better?
Didn't the example monk you built have Dex 14, going down to 12 with Enlarge, and wouldn't he then lose Improved Grapple? Doesn't he take Stunning Fist as a monk bonus feat, and Improved Grapple as a loseable normal feat?
And wouldn't that continue to be the case until he can buy 4,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +2 (much later than everyone else, with all the money he's spending on wands of Obscuring Mist and stuff)?


Whereas the monk all of a sudden collapses into nothingness? Now THAT is what I'd not even call oversimplification, but simply wrong. Do his defenses go away? His class abilities? No.
Gia, the reason you have to rely on so many buffs is that your monk can't do crap without them.



items, so at level 15 that is 50,000, barely a +5 total weapon. The monk gets it for a monk's belt, which the fighter also needs to get to even get 1d8 base damage. Monk ahead again.
A sane fighter likely will rather get a two-handed or missile weapon as his top weapon.
It's a +1 weapon with +4 worth of enhancements. Greater Magic Weapon. +1 Holy Wounding?


No, it would be great for a fighter to have a high WIS score to even get a chance to notice stuff going on around him in combat at all, in particular at the lower levels.
The people who have played fighters are telling you they don't care much about WIS. It's one of the dump stats. That extra +1 or 2 to Spot is NOT worth your points.


But true, monks get out of having higher WIS, due to the synergy with stun and AC. This does not mean that the other (non-divine caster) classes should ignore the benefits of high WIS.
Yes, it does! Monks NEED wis, for AC (ESPECIALLY if they're high STR, rather than weapon finessers) and for Stunning Fist to work, like, ever.
Other classes ignore WIS... in favor of other stats. The fighter gets more out having 16 STR than out of having 12 WIS and etc.


Problem: what does the invisible wizard do when the opponent has also hidden (and with the unlimited time kind, and not just 1 min/lvl)?
But true, the divine power buff can be waited out (only - you do not notice it at work as easily as, say, someone disappearing and still making sounds...)
IMO, "calling upon the divine power of your patron" will have SOME visible effect.

What does the invisible wizard do when the opponent has also hidden? Um, *walk on by*? Invisibility isn't an offensive spell. The hiding person will have to stay under cover, anyway (which, again, not possible everywhere).


Oh, but you can put it into a wand. You're confounding it with the potion item... You can bet the Giamonk has it
So, now your first-level monk has wands of Enlarge Person, Cure Light Wounds, AND Obscuring Mist? Wow, that's 2250 gp already.


No, the wizard loses with this tactics. A wand of blinking and one of flying likely have more charges left than the wizard can keep up building walls of force from his daily repertoire. And the problem also is, that the wizard wastes a standard action for each wall of force, while the monk simply moves (ducks) under the wall of force and does his standard action to the wizard (he can even ready an attack for the wizard casting a spell). Yes. In that situation, definitely the wizard loses.
Giacomo, how do you have a WAND OF BLINK and a WAND OF FLY, each worth 10k+ GP, at level FIVE? Or even at level 10 (weren't you going to buy like four other wands, too)?

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, I forgot the commanding part. Even worse.

On the less-cheesy side...
Honestly though, how does a monk evade a Demon? As I recall, most/all get to Greater Teleport at will.

The demon (this makes me think it's level 12&up we talk about) needs a (probably magic) way to find out where the monk went with his dimension door, or etheralness (at high levels). Outside core, there is the anticipate teleport spell, as far as I recall, but in core? You'll need divination spells, some of which allow a will save and also are stopped by the monk's SR.

- Giacomo

[PirateMonk]

But then you'd be using someone else's class skills to show you are effective...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

But you're doing so for one unusual event, not to make yourself a viable character.

[Sir Giacomo]

But seriously, Giacomo, you get onto me for criticizing the monk while never having played one before, yet you yourself have never played so much as a game of DnD ever.

Ahem?

But...how come YOU should not recognise irony, when you see it? I guess.... Or wait...that post was irony again...and I fell for it, darn!:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

[Reel On, Love]

The demon (this makes me think it's level 12&up we talk about) needs a (probably magic) way to find out where the monk went with his dimension door, or etheralness (at high levels). Outside core, there is the anticipate teleport spell, as far as I recall, but in core? You'll need divination spells, some of which allow a will save and also are stopped by the monk's SR.

- Giacomo

Giacomo, Dimension Door is like 800 feet. Where can you *go*? Even if it's somewhere he can't see, he can teleport around a bunch of times.

Outsiders with Greater Teleport come with CR as low as five (bearded devil). At CRs 6-11, they're plentiful. In fact, there are *more* teleporting outsiders with CRs *below* 12 than there are with CRs *above* 12!

P.S.
I love how when you want to kill a demon, he's obviously in the middle of an empty plain, but when you want to hide from one, you're obviously in some kind of labyrinth.

[Collin152]

I love how when you want to kill a demon, he's obviously in the middle of an empty plain, but when you want to hide from one, you're obviously in some kind of labyrinth.

Schroedinger's battlefield?
Sounds like a good spell to make.

[Reel On, Love]

Schroedinger's battlefield?
Sounds like a good spell to make.

Shadowcasters can get something similar. Look for Black Labyrinth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a) (which would be a great metal band name, incidentally).

[Morty]

And so, Sir Giacomo's battle against logic, rules, common sense and hard, cold facts continues.


You mean like the stuff he does when the casters run out of spells and the group retreats for the night?
Time manipulation has nothing to do with DM fiat, it's simply practical. Or do you play round per round in your campaigns?

- Giacomo

Speeding up time when the party is sleeping anyway is one thing. Sppeding up time after the party have just escaped from a fight and the enemies are likely chasing them is something entirely different. One of the differences being, the first is done to speed things up, the second is made up ny you to justify you impractical and unworkable tactics.

[Nebo_]

A few things:


No. I never have. I made it all up.

Text is an awful medium to communicate sarcasm. Are you actually being sarcastic here? I can't tell.



But...how come YOU should not recognise irony, when you see it? I guess.... Or wait...that post was irony again...and I fell for it, darn!

He has recognised irony. It's extremely ironic that you're so vehemently defending something from a system that you don't have any experience with.
You might be confusing sarcasm with irony, which would explain a lot.

Ro'L has been making a lot of replies recently that you have ignored. Whether it was by accident or not, you should go back and reply to them, he's made some very good points.

[Solo]

Text is an awful medium to communicate sarcasm. Are you actually being sarcastic here? I can't tell.

Worship me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4120905#post4120905) and you'll be able to Detect Sarcasm as a domain spell!

[Reel On, Love]

Worship me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4120905#post4120905) and you'll be able to Detect Sarcasm as a domain spell!

That spell is less than helpful. All it tells me is "oh, suuuuure. Yeah, he's totally being sarcastic. Riiiight."

[Sir Giacomo]

[QUOTE=Solo;4120668]To begin to see how OZYMANDIAS wins, let us consider his core spell list.[QUOTE]


9:
Prismatic Sphere.
Rod of Cancellation, blink (bargains at those levels).

Time Stop
Surprise/win initiative (foresight is missing on Ozymandias' spell list, and he does not have spot/listen/hide/move silently as class skills). And even with time stop up, Oyzmandias cannot attack the Giamonk.

Shades
Conjuration spells of levels 1-8 that are only at 80% of their power? Hmmm...does not sound too impressive. It increases your sorcerer's versatility, but allows no "win".

/Gate
Now, arguably the strongest spell in the game. You probably know already my interpretation of it, which greatly reduces its alleged overpoweredness. Suffice to say the following:
Monk escapes. Comes back after the round/level are over. At level 18 when the sorcerer has the spell, certainly doable. Heck, even a dimension door out of sight is enough for this, while Ozymandias just lost X.P. Highly atmospheric spell, but no "win".

Ressources spent so far: ring of blinking, rod of cancellation (38,000 gold pieces), good initiative and ways to surprise (DEX booster, superior move - can take the monk outside true seeing range and still be able to partially charge with fly effect from winged boots on, adding another 16,000 gp), dimension door ability.
TOTAL level 9: 54,000 gold and no feats, plus the usual maxed out ms/hide/spot/listen combo.

8:
Greater Prying Eyes
These are actually excellent. But the monk is one of the best classes against those, since when they're flying at full speed (30ft), they are only at +11 to hide, while the monk at that level (16) likely already has a +30 (19 ranks, +5 competence, +2 circumstance, +4 WIS). Conversely, the eyes only have +16&up spot vs the monk's (even with half-speed faster move) of a similarly high +32 hide). And the monk can simply destroy them with his unarmed strike, which is not noticeable to the sorcerer until later when the eyes return and report.

Greater Shadow Evocation
Versatile, but even worse than the shades spell for only 60% damage vs the monk's improved evasion, SR and superior reflex save AND will save.
Contingency can be emulated, but that is at best an escape pod (which needs to be worded very cautiously), not a "win".

Mind Blank
Luckily the monk will not attack the sorcerer's mind.

/Irresistible Dance
Spell resistance, high touch AC (and the blink effect negating 50% of the touch attacks), possibly a mind blank spell - but not really necessary. Ah, and the sorcerer has to get first in case he has no freedom of movement up- which would get countered by AMF.

Ressources spent:
+5 spot goggles, +5 cloak (2,500 each), masterwork tools (100). Stat boosters to WIS, DEX +4 (32,000). Throw in some boosts to the touch AC, say the monk's belt (necessary, anyhow, 13,000), and a ring of protection +2 (8,000), ioun stone +1 (5,000). Touch AC would then thus at level 16 be at: 26, boostable to 29 when fighting defensively.

Throw in 10 scrolls of AMF (16,500gp) and do the usual raising of UMD with your human bonus skill points. And may two feats boosting UMD (as well as circlet of persuasion, 4,500gp, and masterwork tools, 50). These will be also around at lower levels, for respective levels.
TOTAL level 8: 79,250.

7:
Spell Turning
You can bet the monk would never target the sorcerer with a spell :smallsmile:

Arcane Sight, Greater
Oh look, the monk is full of magic. Does not help vs hide. And what sorcerer would use that spell first in combat when being attacked by a monk?

Limited Wish
Any 1st-6th sorcerer spell for just 300 XP per casting? Wow, a bargain. Unfortunately, the spells below are not that dangerous for the monk. And why would Solo not have chosen the best 1st-6th spells? :smallsmile:
Duplicating all other (including bard spells) of 1-5th level is not that bad, though. Hmmm. What divine spell of that level could hurt the monk of level 14-15? Can't think of any right now.

Ressources spent: Oh, looks like nothing needed vs Ozymandias' most powerful spells of levels 14-15. None apart from lower-level touch AC versionsIn case some limited wish spells emulate save-or-dies, save boosts are also OK (but the SR already helps a lot)

6:
Disintegrate
Touch AC. Fort save. Nuff' said.

Dispel Magic, Greater
Gone are the buffs...except...vs the sorcerer at that level (when he reaches him), he does not need any. Or it is AMF up, where dispel does not help

Herosim, Greater
Good thing to buff the monk with. Not to fight him with (well, the sorcerer COULD try to melee the monk...

Ressources spent: none apart from lower-level touch AC and save boost versions. Hmmm. This gets suspicious.

5:
Feeblemind
Hmmm. Vs the will save. And vs the enhancement spell bonus of the monk. Ah, and enter a cloak of resistance effect at these lower levels 1-11. Let us say a +2 (4,000).

Wall of Force
Rod of cancellation (11,000). Or wait out. The sorcerer can't hurt you, either. Yes, that's actually better.

Telekinesis
sustained force: Will save each round...for being moved around 20ft per round requiring concentration. Here, at long last shuriken can hurt a bit when being moved into the air (otherwise vs the monk's superior move it's no big use). Well..not thaaat much of a win.
Combat Maneuver: or bull rush, disarm (are you joking?:smallsmile: ), grapple, or trip. Best attack possiblity so far. Vs strong areas of the monk who will be ahead due to improved grapple and improved trip feats. Bull rush...hmmm
Violent thrust: sorcerer with normal attack roll? Well...
Telekinesis is overall a good spell- despite the good monk's defenses already there, but unfortunately it needs a target to work. Get conealment up, it's no use.
A good way to do that at those levels: Eversmoking bottle (5,400 gp)

Overland Flight or Persistent Image
Well, this does not really defeat the monk, does it? But it can allow the sorcerer to escape...or the boots of flying from above are already around, then the sorcerer has a problem since his overland flight is much, much slower than the 90ft speed monk.
I like persistent image, though, but it can only trick the monk, not really defeat him except in very situational situations...:smallamused:

Ressources spent: 25,400. Bonus feats improved grapple and trip. Blind-fight feat is also quite good when using concealment.

4:
Enervation
1d4 negative levels. And touch AC needs to be hit (at level 8 the monk likely has something around 20). Hmmm. It's a spell that gives you an edge over longer combat, but not in single combat vs the monk. Even if he loses 4 levels, grapple does not need any of the stuff that is affected by the penalties (except the first touch hit roll).

Greater Invisibility
1 round/lvl. Monk gets up his concealment as well. Draw. Until the 1 round/lvl are over. Then it's Ozymandias move again.

Resilient Sphere
The easiest spell to wait out. And if the sorcerer has dimension door, why didn't he use it in the first place?

Dimension Door
Great escape pod! But no win.

Ressources spent: none special, but the lower-level versions of the above touch AC, resistance and stat booster.

3:
Fly or Shrink Item
For those crucial situations when the monk loses initiative, he can drink a potion of flying and be superior in speed from level 6&up. Shrink item does not work in an offensive way as per FAQ.

Slow
Will save. This one's actually quite good, although the monk retains the ability to do standard actions (or could move next to sorcerer, wait for AoO to grapple).

Stinking Cloud
Fort save. This is actually so far the best chance for winning, and the best it achieves is reducing the monk to a move action (if he moves silently outside the cloud on the other side, the sorcerer can no longer target him or attack him).

Dispel Magic (replace with Explosive Runes)
Good vs buffs, but not for winning. Explosive runes -well the monk might be tricked into reading the runes...but the monk can simply buy it for 150gp and do the same. No win.

Ressources spent for monk: 150 gp for letter of (fake) admittance of defeat to Ozymandias with explosive runes. Lower level touch AC and save boost items.

2:
Resistance to Energy
No win vs monk. Obvious.

Alter Self
No win vs monk. Obvious (there is no humanoid in core to grant fly, or you start as a planetouched and lose one caster level). And the natural AC boost does not help vs the grapple attack that is really devastating for a sorcerer at these fragile levels.

See Invisibility (Replace at higher levels with? Rope Trick?)
The monk will not be invisible, he'll hide.

Shatter
There is nothing to shatter on the monk. Magical items you can target may be shattered though. Great. You shattered the monk's enlarge wand, then monk grapples you.

Invisibility (replace with Glitterdust)
1 min/lvl. And you cannot attack. For the rest see also Greater invisibility above.

Ressources spent: lower level versions of above defensive items, although at levels 1-4 the only thing around realy is likely partially charged wands, scrolls and potions.

1:
Protection from Evil
Helps vs evil monks, yes. A +2 vs touch grapple attack for some minutes.

True Strike
One crossbow bolt of 1d8 damage could strike true. If you go first.

Magic Missile
up to 2d4+2. Hmmm. Good, but concealment again completely nullifies it (say a wand of obscuring mist, see Talic's description of the great use of the spell above).

Grease
One ofthe most overrated spells. Reflex save. Simply step out 5ft of the 10ft square. You delay the monk at best, but do not win.

Shield or Mage Armor (Replace at higher levels with?)
Does not help vs touch attacks of grapple.

Ressources spent: nothing special here. Just grapple (so the improved grapple feat helps.



[QUOTE=Solo;4120668]You can clearly see that there are many nasty spells on here.
How are you going to counter all of these, and how much would it cost, in terms of feats, skill points and money? [QUOTE]

As you can cleary see that there are so easy ways to thwart them, or they do not even give you an edge vs a monk. Only at the highest levels magic items will be necessary to keep up, as per wbl.
And the items listed are not even a 5th of the total items you gain until level 20.

Do not get me wrong: I like your spell choices. But the stuff I listed shows you how easy it can be for a monk to defend vs them, making it quite hard to "win" against this particular non-caster class.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Giacomo, Dimension Door is like 800 feet. Where can you *go*? Even if it's somewhere he can't see, he can teleport around a bunch of times.

Yes, but while he's at it, the party can hide. They could even *gasp* use a rope trick.


Outsiders with Greater Teleport come with CR as low as five (bearded devil). At CRs 6-11, they're plentiful. In fact, there are *more* teleporting outsiders with CRs *below* 12 than there are with CRs *above* 12!

Yes, but do they also come with the ability to know where you have gone with a dimdoor 800ft away? In, say a dungeon? You could dim door next floor up/down without the demon having a chance to know where you are.


P.S.
I love how when you want to kill a demon, he's obviously in the middle of an empty plain, but when you want to hide from one, you're obviously in some kind of labyrinth.

I love how you compare completely different things. One was a scenario I set up to show how it is theoretically possible for a level 20 fighter to kill a balor which was denied by Bears with Lasers to be even possible. And I even did it in one round. And it was not even an empty plain, but an enemy camp of an evil army laying siege to the city of the fighter, with the balor in charge of the army and arrogantly standing among his troops several hundred feet away.

For the escape thing not to work, you actually NEED an empty plane, which was not even assumed in the other scenario.

Please do not do these comparsions out of the blue, making up things I never said.

- Giacomo

[Collin152]

I love how you compare completely different things. One was a scenario I set up to show how it is theoretically possible for a level 20 fighter to kill a balor which was denied by Bears with Lasers to be even possible. And I even did it in one round. And it was not even an empty plain, but an enemy camp of an evil army laying siege to the city of the fighter, with the balor in charge of the army and arrogantly standing among his troops several hundred feet away.
- Giacomo

Does this Fighter also make heavy use of UMD?
Or possibly other things that are totally unrelated to beign a fighter?
Or possibly catching this Balor unawares?

[Talic]

Would be bad if they got that.



But they didn't. You see, EVERYone by the RAW gets access to polymorph. It's not even a personal range spell.



Yes, you KNEW it. But by now, after all the statistics have been presented to you, you should KNOW better.
Let's summarise FOUR areas of grapple success influence:
STR (equal, or if the fighter does not care about will save, listen, spot, DEX etc., more for the fighter)Fighter's job isn't to spot enemies. For those 4 points of wisdom he skimps on, let's give him Iron will to make up. Still more for the fighter.

BAB (fighter ahead)Agreed

No. of attempts (monk ahead)Once in grapple, maybe, but when moving up? Equal footing.

Damage (monk ahead)Absolutely not. Fighters can power attack unarmed too. Fighters can use enhanced gauntlets to bring power up to par (or are you trying to say that WBL isn't a factor? Remember the +6d6+5 gauntlets I mentioned earlier? Fighter ahead.

Sounds pretty even to me, at the very least. NOW enter...the divine power effect. Ok. Monk wins initiative. Move action draw wand, standard activate divine power. Fighter uses ring of invisibility. Waits out buff.
OR Fighter uses full base attack and the Str +6 belt that he has (instead of a monk's belt), and still has an advantage, with his gauntlets that are vicious, flaming, frost, shock, and merciful. Wins by superior damage and HP.

Monk wins grapple.See above, where I factor in the full round it takes to use that wand, where you have no mobility, or attacks.
NOW enter that at low levels, the use a fighter gets out of two feats for improved grapple is pretty limited. And NOW also enter that a fighter needs to get HIGHER DEX than the monk (namely, 15) to even get and keep the improved grapple feat bonus while enlarged (precondition for feat: DEX 13, gets reduced by -2 in enlarged form). So in terms of grappling, we are definitely talking fighter MAD here. At low levels? Maybe. However, at low levels, enlarge is less a factor. Also, at low levels, enlarged, imp grapple isn't as necessary, since most enemies won't have reach, and thus, won't be making AoO's versus your grapple anyway.

Yes, monk is definitely a better grappler.So you keep saying. It'd be marvelous if the facts agreed with you, hmm? :smallamused:

Whereas the monk all of a sudden collapses into nothingness? Now THAT is what I'd not even call oversimplification, but simply wrong. Do his defenses go away? His class abilities? No.Not saying he disappears. He just loses the only thing that brings him close to parity for the 7 rounds it's up.
As I showed above, actually the contrary is the case.Again, something you keep saying, that doesn't seem to stand up to objective critical observation.

Hmm true, but how much more will the fighter have to pay for such a +10 weapon? Not to mention that the fighter will only have such a weapon around level 20, if at all (DMG recommends a quarter of your wealth going to single items, so at level 15 that is 50,000, barely a +5 total weapon. The monk gets it for a monk's belt, which the fighter also needs to get to even get 1d8 base damage. Monk ahead again.
Greater magic weapon. +6 weapon. After all, if we're competing against Schrodinger's Monk, why not use Schrodinger's fighter, hmm? Using a cloak of charisma, he diplomanced elminster into giving him all his magic items at reduced cost, and then slept with the Simbul. All cross-class, of course.

A sane fighter likely will rather get a two-handed or missile weapon as his top weapon.And that fighter will deal with challenges more effectively than the monk, also.
I never said that. I only said it is possible.Your exact words were that a monk only "needs" an 8 wisdom. The obvious counter is that wizards only "need" an int of 10 to cast. That doesn't make them effective, however. Effective monks, you're looking at 12-14 wisdom, 14 dex, 14 con, and, if your DM is running a high power campaign, some int and Str. Or, if running a Giamonk, 18 in every stat, cause the DM gives you 14 in every stat and you diplomance 4 wishes for each.
No, it would be great for a fighter to have a high WIS score to even get a chance to notice stuff going on around him in combat at all, in particular at the lower levels.Ah, that's the beauty of combat. Things acting offensively generally have a hard time hiding, need cover to do it, and take obscene penalties. Even outside of core, it's hard to get an ECL 1 character with a hide above 20. Incidentally, the penalty to hide for sniping (1 shot, full round action) is, -20. So the 20 dex halfling rogue with 4 ranks in hide, skill focus in hide, and a masterwork tool of hiding, he has a +14. If sniping, he has a -6. I think the fighter can see even him, usually. Even with a -1 wisdom, and no ranks in spot. It's becoming more evident that your claim that you haven't played is true.
Yes, but while doing so, they lower their initiative and hamper their missile attack department (where they can be the best of all classes due to their many feats).And where they likely won't go, because in Core, ranged attacking builds are pathetically limited. Even outside of core, successful ranged attack builds typically use brutal throw, for ranged combat.

But true, monks get out of having higher WIS, due to the synergy with stun and AC. This does not mean that the other (non-divine caster) classes should ignore the benefits of high WIS.True. Rogues, paladins, and rangers get quite a bit from Sense motive, spot, and listen. For other classes, boosting a stat to gain proficiency in cross-class skills that won't keep pace with the DC's that are needed anyway... That's what's known as a "bad move".
Where is that recommendation? I only know the PHB p. 145 entry, and the DMG offers variant (optional) rules for larger creatures.It's listed in campaign settings, I believe the epic handbook, and in excerpts written by the game designers on the Wizards website. This is actually to protect players, as monsters can fail 100 of those saves, no problem. Players encounter suck when they fail 1. It's the concept of increased randomness helping the underdog. That underdog is, in this case, the NPC combatants, who are expected to lose every fight.
But they have maximum RANGES. And it's difficult to get into range, if you do not know where the opponent is (remember, this use of hide was about someone wanting to GET AWAY and then hide). Hide is a powerful ability.I'm not denying hide is powerful. My single best class I play is rogue. I know well the powers, and limitations, of hide. And I'll tell you. Once you're spotted once, whether by an attack, or spotting, it's over. The hider is 100% defensive, unless he's got a devious trick. Also, unlike spells, most creature sensory abilities are constant. You can't wait it out. That ability may have a range, but believe me, within that range, you will never... EVER, be able to hide, in core.
Would you as a DM tell your players what DC the save has? How then keep up the suspense, if it's an effect that is uncertain/will only show later? For instance, a BBEG having charmed the group's rogue?Nope. I know the odds of the ability succeeding. If I don't want my players to have a chance of failing an ability, I don't use that ability. Also, bear in mind, 95% of a D&D game does not involve the BBEG. It involves normal NPC's, and creatures from the MM. And once the group figures out the DC of 1-2 spells, they'll know the DC of all of them. I am one of the DM's that believes that Character Death is a roleplaying opportunity, not the end of the road. So I don't shy from dishing it out when needed. If a player has a 65% chance of passing, and passes, great. If he's asleep or charmed? Sorry, but them's the breaks. For one, my players LOVE when I charm/dominate them. Lets them try a new roleplay style for a bit (I'll take them to the side, describe their orders, and let them carry them out. It's actually a good experience, when not overdone).
You can, by not telling the saving throw DC (which I so far believed is the norm).Tell me, Gia, when a Nightshade tries to plane shift someone, what's the DC? What about when a Nymph uses blinding beauty? It's all there, and it's all able to be seen or calculated. Breaking the rules without good cause hampers the game and shows partiality. Two things I avoid.

OK, let us put the rabbit example to rest. We both apparently were a bit hasty in our remarks here.I suppose that's as much a concession that I'm right as I'm going to get.

Oh, but you can put it into a wand. You're confounding it with the potion item...:smallsmile: You can bet the Giamonk has it :smallamused: What's that bring his WBL up to? We've got Wand of Obscuring Mist, Blink, Dimension Door, Divine power, bull's strength, what else? how much of your WBL is used on expendable items, ones that will deplete your WBL faster than you acquire it? Note that each must be drawn and then used. and when you use it, that's a round you're not doing anything else.
Wow, you just repeated one of the ways for the monk (and any non-caster) that I already mentioned as standard tactics vs spellcasters.
The problem for your wizard is:
1) the wizard has no move silently skill. So while he moves in the fog, the enemy will be able to pinpoint him easier than the GiamonkAt DC of MS +20. Assume wizard has a dex of 14, that's an average of 12, DC 32 to pinpoint... At level 1. Pinpointing creatures you can't see also isn't core. That's an epic use of listen, covered in the epic handbook. Just sayin.

2) 50% miss chance from 10ft, 25% from 5ft is not exactly what I'd call "entire enemy offense". My bad, I forgot, there are 9 squares he can move in with a 5 foot step. That means it's not a 10% at range, it's a 5.5%. And for melee, it's no charge. If it's cast, and a move action taken, wiz can be anywhere in the 40ft diameter cloud. lowers chances to under 1% (far under) for range, difficult to find to hit in melee, and overall, about 10x harder to kill. If, at level 1, they beat the 12-16 AC. A 20ft radius sphere is a lot of ground to cover. If the enemy dives in to search it, they're going to have difficulty seeing each other, and difficulty coordinating an offense. I'd say that qualifies as shutting down the offense. They have to completely change tactics. Further, that concealment means the rogue can hide from 5 feet away, and keep LOS outside of the cloud, the fighter can cover the mage and ready an action to whack whatever manages to find him, and the cleric can stick near to both, and be ready to drop whatever assist spells are needed, or melee assistance. Only downside, the rogue loses sneak attack while attacking targets in the cloud. If this is a standard tactic of the group, they're gonna have a better plan than the foe. Believe me, obscuring mist decimates enemies. It's a spell that stops all vision, even True Seeing. At higher levels, wind spells can mitigate it, but at low levels, it's one of the best control spells out there. Period.

Problem: what does the invisible wizard do when the opponent has also hidden (and with the unlimited time kind, and not just 1 min/lvl)?Detect magic, focus for three rounds, and pinpoint the location of his 73 wands? Further, note, that hide, while powerful, does have limitations. You can't hide if you have no cover (or concealment) relative to the target. You can't hide if being observed. What this means, is that, to hide, the monk must stick to areas where he has cover. Solution. Invis wizard moves to an area where there is none. Now there's no hiding, if you follow.

But true, the divine power buff can be waited out (only - you do not notice it at work as easily as, say, someone disappearing and still making sounds...)
Again, pinpointing by listen is an epic usage, and is not core.

Yes, and they SHOULD have those methods of escaping, since at those levels they are so extremely fragile. Fragile? Only 2 hp per level less than the monk. :smallwink:

You assume that the opponent has no means to fly as well, that there is enough space to fly to safety (in-door adventuring?), and, most importantly, that the wizard is able to defend continuously vs missile attacks.Yes, I do. At level 5, the enemies that will fly are few. At levle 5, the range attacks are similarly few. And the wizard doesn't need to defend continuously. About 4 rounds is enough, while the rest of the group owns the enemy who spent all their resources trying to get through the prot from arrows spell. Further, fly has limitations, true. It's not an "I win 100% of the time" spell. Other good 3rd level spells include: Dispel Magic (bane of wand users everywhere), Hold Person, Suggestion, Blink, Haste, and Slow. Now, no one of these spells equals "win". But the wise wizard, who has at least a couple diff spells prepared, well, they all together do equal "wizard wins".

But protection from arrows does not help vs magical arrows (as from a +1 bow) which tend to come up occasionally from level 5&up-Rarely, but yes. Dispel magic, above. And magical arrows will be limited in quantity.

And invisibility is not providing you with the ability to "rain death" and still retain defense vs arrows, since you then get visible.But they will allow you to Summon monsters, haste allies, displace allies, or the like. The invisi-caster can make his presence known without attacking.

Sigh, looks like the wizard's defenses are good - but not as good as you think.
and your faith in your friends is yours.

Enervation does not have the power level of the others imo that I already listed. So if you see these three spells equal to polymorph, but would also consider polymorph broken, why then do you advocate using those spells for wizard/sorcerers? I never said I consider these spells equal. Though Black tentacles comes close. They're strong 4th level spells. But let's look at enervation. Assuming just the spell, your opponent gets the following:
-1 to -4 on all attack rolls and saves
-1 to -4 on all ability checks and skill checks
-5 to -20 Hit Points
-1 to -4 effective levels
For casters, -1 to -4 spells prepared.

Further, if neg levels = character levels, you die. I'd say that's not so shabby. Oh, and those effects last 7 hours, starting.

No, the wizard loses with this tactics. A wand of blinking and one of flying likely have more charges left than the wizard can keep up building walls of force from his daily repertoire. And the problem also is, that the wizard wastes a standard action for each wall of force, while the monk simply moves (ducks) under the wall of force and does his standard action to the wizard (he can even ready an attack for the wizard casting a spell). Yes. In that situation, definitely the wizard loses. Interesting. Now let's look at this scenario. Monk closes to within 5 feet, and attacks, hitting, but failing to stun the wizard. Wizard steps 5 feet back and drops a wall of force. Monk draws a wand of blink, and activates it. Wizard casts fly (assuming open area) or Invisibility (if not). Either way, moves afterwards Monk moves through wall, has no attack.
Again, you note that monk must draw and use the wand, and thus cannot reach the wizard quite as fast as you'd like to think.

Why does the "trigger object version" not allow a SR and no save? Can you not see it from the spell description? Because it is extremely unreliable for attacking someone (equal to the uncertainty surrounding saves and SR). This is also the reason why the rules mention explicitly that sympathy spell to make picking up the item more likely (which again necessitates a SR and save and is blocked by a mind blank entirely).More unreliable? I've seen more than one player fall victim to this spell, and more than one NPC as well. Keep in mind, it's not insanely unreasonable for a monk that needs constant wealth to maintain his neverending wands to want a gem valued at over 15,000 gold. Such items do have a bit of pull of their own, that a mind blank won't block. Note, also, the item is completely safe for anyone else to handle. So Bubba can hold it in his hands, and offer it to you, and there's very little indicator of the nasty death that awaits. It's insidious because it's SUBTLE. And a wizard worth his salt can play mind games. For example, what if, and this is reaching, what if the portal to his keep is keyed to require you hold that gem to enter? Sounds like an effective way to keep one special person out. Or in (the gem).

Actually, you are right - I was even among those who highly praised it. But I do not see proof anywhere in there for anything a sorcerer can do that will with 100%, or even with consistent probability in all cases, allow a "win" against same level opponents.That you do not see it, does not make it not so.

[AmberVael]

Rod of Cancellation... single use. Lots of money. It also takes an action to use. Yes, congratulations- you destroyed the Sorcerer's spell. You know one of the major advantages a sorcerer has over other casters? Instant versatility with their selection and lots of spells per day. They'll just do it again. Got another one?

Ring of Blinking... 50% to get through 5ft of anything. 50% chance of not- taking damage, and then possibly getting affected by whatever you went through. Plus you have to activate it, and it only lasts 5 rounds per activation (as a standard action). Hmm.

Using AMF as a defense will render your mobility useless. He can simply fly up and pelt you with summons/instantaneous conjurations if you do that- and you'll be doomed. Or you'll have to run.

I see your Touch AC against Disintegrate and raise you his 1st level true strike spell.
What? You thought he was really going to use that with a crossbow? :smallconfused:

Eversmoking bottle would need to be used before you'd get concealment... and the Wizard/Sorcerer doesn't have to enter it. He'll use your method- wait until it's gone. It actually works here, since the monk has to cower in it for it to be effective.

I'll just stop there. Really- think out your ideas before putting them up.

[Talic]

But then you'd be using someone else's class skills to show you are effective...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

Actually, Use Magic Device is a class skill for rogues.

[Reel On, Love]

Gia, do me a favor and re-read the Blink spell and, say, Wall of Force or Prismatic Sphere. The relevant information might be in the "Ethereal" condition, too.

The Rod of Cancellation being able to cancel an infinite number of spells is preposterous; you know as well as I do that it's one-use. Cancelling a spell is just like cancelling an item for it.

[Reel On, Love]

Yes, but while he's at it, the party can hide. They could even *gasp* use a rope trick.
Most of the party can't hide, pretty much at all. They could *gasp* use a Rope Trick, but why would they want to? That devil will still be there, the buffs they cast are running down...
Rope Tricks are for resting, not from hiding from demons that are chasing you.


Yes, but do they also come with the ability to know where you have gone with a dimdoor 800ft away? In, say a dungeon? You could dim door next floor up/down without the demon having a chance to know where you are.

The demon can check one room every six second. I'd say that it can find you pretty DANG fast. Especially since rooms you haven't been (i.e. that are full of monsters and such) aren't possible options.
Also, what about demons you don't meet in a dungeon?

To sum up, your "dimension door away and wait for their buffs to run out!" strategy doesn't work. They're going to come looking for you. If it's an evil wizard or cleric, he could even summon that bearded devil and send it teleporting around!
You'll probably have them lose their rounds/level buffs... but your party will lose theirs, too.
All that, and it's just once/day. And SOMEHOW, this is a completely reliable strategy that parties should use all the time? What a joke.

Not to mention how freaking dull it'd make games of D&D.


I love how you compare completely different things. One was a scenario I set up to show how it is theoretically possible for a level 20 fighter to kill a balor which was denied by Bears with Lasers to be even possible. And I even did it in one round. And it was not even an empty plain, but an enemy camp of an evil army laying siege to the city of the fighter, with the balor in charge of the army and arrogantly standing among his troops several hundred feet away.
Why would a balor be in charge of an army? That's not what they do. Why would it be in plain view of the city's wizards? If it's surrounded by subordinates, how do you get that close?

Point is, if you have to have a surprise round and initiative--it doesn't really matter what you're doing.


For the escape thing not to work, you actually NEED an empty plane, which was not even assumed in the other scenario.

Please do not do these comparsions out of the blue, making up things I never said.

- Giacomo
No, you don't need an empty plain. You just need somewhere without tons of nooks and crannies. Even if you have a keep with two floors or something, a group of enemies can search it in short order... that's non-teleporting enemies. The demons just go pop, pop, pop, pop, there they are!

[Sir Giacomo]

Text is an awful medium to communicate sarcasm. Are you actually being sarcastic here? I can't tell.

Well, several posters accused be to "never have played any D&D" in order to show that they thought some particular points of mine were particularly unbelievable to them.
When I then agree with them to that, how can you even think that is serious? After 30 pages of this thread alone? After I mentioned several times as you well know my gaming experience, giving concrete examples.
Don't play it too naive here.


Ro'L has been making a lot of replies recently that you have ignored. Whether it was by accident or not, you should go back and reply to them, he's made some very good points.

Oh, most I already replied to. Here's another larger chunk:


Are "difficult to carry around"? No, they're not! You just strap'em to your back like the fighter does with his normal 4 weapons! If you don't like that, because dragging around multiple/big weapons is kinda goofy, put them in the Bag of Holding. It's just a move action to get'em out.

Strap to back of a medium humanoid a colossal size weapon? And have that one enchanted for just that mins/day use? And you tell me the eversmoking bottle or fleeing from combat to return with force are "impractical". Wow.


Ah, yes, the Divine Power that you're using every fight, but refuse to accept you might need more than a single wand for. Once it's up, the monk still isn't ahead. He has lower STR--you know how your example monk never has any stat above 14?

Wrong posting does not good arguing make. Seriously- how many times do I have to write it:
Monk, 15/16th level, starting STR 14, gets 2 stat gains on STR, gets enlarge effect, gets +6 from divine power, not STR is at 24. That is enough for most purposes. Meanwhile, the fighter has to get higher DEX to get improved grapple which the monk can take as a bonus feat.


Fighters/barbs start with at least 16 STR. Half-orc or skipping INT can make that 18.

And then their skill department is almost nil.


Then there's Weapon Focus, GWF, WS, GWS, which core fighters have nothing better to do than take.

WF does not modify the grapple check. And it would be absolutely futile forthe fighter to sink 6 feats into fighting unarmed and still being outdamaged by the monk eventually.
Concerning the weapon of choice- I guess with all that, eventually, the fighter would get on par with the monk damage output (remember the monk has 3 more attacks at 16th level when using divine power!)


Oh, and let's not forget the 1.5x STR multiplier.

Not applicable in a grapple.


He doesn't actually do more damage. he has a bigger base damage die. Very different.

?Where is the difference?
6d8 + STR, 7 attacks
or
3d6 + higher STR (with 1.5, power attacking for WF/GWF), 4 attacks


DR is ABSOLUTELY a big issue. That's 5 to 15 damage off of every attack (which hurts the monk more than others, incidentally).

But I mentioned the ways to overcome them.


You CAN'T get low-level spells all the time.

You can. That's why they are low-level spells.


Material DR? No spells for that.

But items. Like silver sheen.


Align Weapon? Oh, so your monk has a wand of Align Weapon, too? Or he's storing it instead of Divine Power?

Come on, Reel on, Love, what is this? 4.500 for 50 uses at high levels? Where is the problem?


Somehow, you never seem to account for this. It's easy to say "get a wand to do it". It's not easy to actually get a wand for everything and use it all the time.

It is. Check the costs and availability of items, even abstracting from the partial charge issue.


Wow, Giacomo. Your answer to EVERYTHING is "add more wands". WHEN ARE YOU USING THEM ALL? How are you affording them all?

Just read my reply to Solo's alleged "win" spells. You'll hardly notice any wand there. So stop please distorting what I say.


God, what happens if some demons jump you, teleporting in? Do you spend four rounds fiddling with wands of Divine Power, Enlarge Person, Align Weapon, and apparently Blink or Mirror Image or something too?

You seem to forget that most of these things are offensive in nature. A demon jumping the monk would need to win initiative (the teleport is in the surprise round), get through his good flat-footed AC, get through his saves for his spc attacks. Let us say, until (a well-worded) contingency is around, the monk has a far better chance to survive a demon jumping on him than, say, a sorcerer.


It is HI-LARIOUS, the way you absolutely refuse to accept that your monk will ever have a fight start without getting the time to put any buffs he wants up. Meanwhile, the rest of us play actual D&D, where buff time is rare--why do you think clerics all take Quicken? Why would they bother Quickening things if the party could see every fight coming?

OK, assuming you normally play the game without buff round. Let us see who gets most problems...er...the casters?


Has this REALLY happened in your games? *WHY* didn't the enemies *CHASE* you?

Chasing someone who dimension doors away?
And if the monk hides, yes - the enemy can chase him, but they may not notice him (there are not that many creatures or opponents with high spot checks). I never said that it is a 100% winning strategy, it is simply a good strategy when continuing to fight is disadvantageous.


The monk' Dim-Door is once/day. So what do you do during your second fight?
What if your comrades don't want to run away all the time?

Sigh. Not all the time. Only when it is necessary. Same for the dim door effect.


BTW, your DDoor CL is HALF your monk level. So when you get it, you cast it at a CL of 6. You can go 740 feet and bring 2 people.

That's what I said.


Lots of things can cover 740 feet in a run action or two.

Yes, on a flat plain you so like. Realistically, though, 740ft will take much longer to cover when you do not know exactly where to search or to go.


The wizard comparison is where you again show your total bias and the way you don't think thins through. The wizard doesn't use Dimension Door to go away and wait out the enemy's buffs--he uses it to get out of grapples, to not get full attacked, etc.

OK.


Maybe you've never played with a rogue, but what they DON'T do is spend two round moving away and hiding, then moving back in, then moving away, etc, because that would mean they're barely contributing anything.
During fights, rogues tend to flank a lot. They don't tend to move away, hide, then the next round move back and get a single attack.
And that's assuming there's somewhere to hide. Not always the case.
The enemies just keep fighting the rest of your party.
And if you managed to D-Door everyone away, they chase you.

Yes, flanking would be infinitely better. Only not in the situation I described, where the group (or the monk if alone) is at a disadvantage.


Seriously, your reason for why enemies can't wait out YOUR wand buffs is that you'll chase them, right? Why can't enemies do the same thing to your party?

They can. It's called suspense in adventures.


Imagine that your monk is fighting a demon. Easy, right? Except that he sees you glowing with divine power, Enlarged, etc, and teleports away! Then two minutes later he comes back. What do you do? Spend more wand charges, this time as he's attacking?

That would be a good tactics for the demon to use. Knowing that, the monk would use it only to 1) chase away the demon for a short while to make that demon "wait out the buffs" in order to be able to hide himself as well/heal/ambush. 2) when he believes he can take down the demon in one go before it is able to escape and come back again.
This is actually what I'd call the basics of designing an intelligent enemy.


Of course, demons don't act like that--they attack. Because acting like that would make all demon encounters 100% lame. "I hit it!" "It teleports away.

Why should it do that if it thinks it is winning?
Why shouldn't it do that if it thinks it is losing?
Playing it stupid, THAT would actually be lame.


Oh, and since this is Giacomo World, it comes back healed, since it used Diplomacy to persuade an evil cleric to give it spellcasting services for free."
Boy, trading one hit a minute sure is fun.

Well, apparently in Reel on, Love's world the demons just pop up without some backstory.
But it's better, for instance, to employ them with a background where a BBEG apparently sent them/employed them for a reason and may have an interest to heal him to send him back strengthened (no diplomacy check needed here).


But if "waiting out buffs" is a viable strategy, it can happen to you.
And your monk depends ENTIRELY on several short-term buffs. (Note how other characters don't. The cleric buffs in *one combat round*; the wizard's important buffs are long-term and he drops one short-term one at the start, at most. The barbarian can just charge in and fight.)

The monk does not "depend entirely" on short-term buffs. Not more than others.
The barbarian receives a dearly needed spell resistance/protection from spells buff, while the monk uses his divine power.
And who is going to wait out a divine power that you need a detect magic with a standard action to discern in the first place? Being hit by the monk in a more powerful way does not suggest to an enemy that there is anything to "wait out" at all. But a wizard turning invisible is.
And vs those enemies you have powerful spells that could escape his grapple, guess what the can monk do? AMF!

But most importantly: the teleport-at-will creatures are not that often around. And the monk has the highest movement. So it is more difficult to "wait out buffs" against him.


What's ridiculous is that you can't always flee. The Wizard can teleport your party out, maybe--you know why? Because teleport goes *whereever you want*, not 800 feet away. He can teleport you to the middle of the desert where his Magnificent Mansion is still up, then teleport you back.
And he can't do that every fight. That's a contingency. It's a "whoops, we're all gonna die" move, not a "oh, the enemy has a couple spells on them" move.

800ft or 100s of kilometres make no difference. Actually, the 800ft is better for being able to faster engage the enemy again with mundane methods.


You come back. There's twice as many enemies, they got reinforcements.
A possibility. Then it's all of sudden a higher CR encounter. But you can have a better chance of winning THAT with surprise on your side.

You come back. The enemies aren't there. So much for beating them up.
Then you can continue to do what you intended to do in the first place. And if you intended to beat them up, well then do research where they are.


You come back. The bad guys have killed their prisoners, burned down the building, sacked the town, completed the evil ritual, whatever.
And, what would happen 90% of the time... you dimension door away. A few rounds later, the enemies come charging up, still buffed.

Hmmm. Sounds like that is a problem for all.
The point is:
If the encounter is going against you (as in: you'll likely lose!), then it is an ADVANTAGE to be able to flee and come back later, even if the enemy has doubled, disappeared or killed prisoners, because if you would not have fled, then all of this would have happened ONTOP of your own deaths. Great.

Come on Reel On, Love. This is bascis of tactics. You cannot continue to deny this. If you do, it makes no more sense to discuss it.


But, fine, you Abundant Step your whole party (three other people? You must be a level 18 monk) away.
So what do you do next fight?

Use item. Hide. And....why should exactly ALL fights go wrong?


How do you flee from the teleport-at-will, high-move-speed outsider, exactly?
The one that acts before you do (gated creatures act on the same turn they're gated in on), and has long-range spells or SLAs, to boot?

Well, the monk apparently with the highest move has the best possibility to move away. And you so far failed to answer me this crucial question:
How is a teleport-at-will outsider going to find a monk once he has dim doored away?

- Giacomo

[Collin152]

You seem to forget that most of these things are offensive in nature. A demon jumping the monk would need to win initiative (the teleport is in the surprise round), get through his good flat-footed AC, get through his saves for his spc attacks. Let us say, until (a well-worded) contingency is around, the monk has a far better chance to survive a demon jumping on him than, say, a sorcerer.
- Giacomo

A Sorcerer would just plane shift out.
Or some equivelant.

[Sir Giacomo]

Does this Fighter also make heavy use of UMD?

No.


Or possibly other things that are totally unrelated to beign a fighter?

You mean, like attacking with a composite longbow with many, many feats put into it? :smallsmile:


Or possibly catching this Balor unawares?


Ah...the advantage of missile attacks. Some will never learn.

- Giacomo

[Collin152]

No.



You mean, like attacking with a composite longbow with many, many feats put into it? :smallsmile:



Ah...the advantage of missile attacks. Some will never learn.

- Giacomo

So, this fighter can kill something because he spent the last 20 levels putting his energy into a sub-optimal mode of combat?
How are you gettign within range of the balor if he's leading an army anyways?
And why isn't the balor in a more protected enviroment? He can teleport, he never needs to be in the open.

[Sir Giacomo]

And...


Hey, Giacomo.
Didn't you suggest Enlarge Person for your monk, at all levels? So he could grapple better?
Didn't the example monk you built have Dex 14, going down to 12 with Enlarge, and wouldn't he then lose Improved Grapple? Doesn't he take Stunning Fist as a monk bonus feat, and Improved Grapple as a loseable normal feat?
And wouldn't that continue to be the case until he can buy 4,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +2 (much later than everyone else, with all the money he's spending on wands of Obscuring Mist and stuff)?

No. That monk apparently took improved grapple as a bonus feat, and stunning fist at level 12. Since the main tactics was grappling at those levels, there wouldn't be much lost, would there?
Funny that the fighter for this comparison now has MAD, and not them monk, isn't it? Ahhh...the advantages of bonus feats without requirements. So often ignored...:smallamused:



Gia, the reason you have to rely on so many buffs is that your monk can't do crap without them.

Yep.
(just for Nebo: warning! Sarcasm!)


It's a +1 weapon with +4 worth of enhancements. Greater Magic Weapon. +1 Holy Wounding?

Now...where does the full BABs get the greater magic weapon from? Hmmm...:smallsmile:
You're getting desperate here.
Either monk AND the full BABs are buffed equally from outside sources, or none are. Or are you actually suggesting a *gasp* GiaFighter? :smallsmile:


The people who have played fighters are telling you they don't care much about WIS. It's one of the dump stats. That extra +1 or 2 to Spot is NOT worth your points.

Those are likely the same people who wonder why their fighters have no chance at high levels vs casters who'll charm them to their heart's content.


Yes, it does! Monks NEED wis, for AC (ESPECIALLY if they're high STR, rather than weapon finessers) and for Stunning Fist to work, like, ever.
Other classes ignore WIS... in favor of other stats. The fighter gets more out having 16 STR than out of having 12 WIS and etc.

Yes. You normally focus your stats differently for different classes. Yopr point being? You NORMALLY do that. But you can do it also differently.


IMO, "calling upon the divine power of your patron" will have SOME visible effect.

Which one? The wand is command-word only.


What does the invisible wizard do when the opponent has also hidden? Um, *walk on by*? Invisibility isn't an offensive spell. The hiding person will have to stay under cover, anyway (which, again, not possible everywhere).

But with a wand of obscuring mist, voila: level playing field. Or the eversmoking bottle...(*dodges Reel On, Love's wrath* :smallsmile: ).



So, now your first-level monk has wands of Enlarge Person, Cure Light Wounds, AND Obscuring Mist? Wow, that's 2250 gp already.

? Did I ever, in any post, ever say that a monk with 12.5gp starting money has any magic items?
Most desperate post of you so far.

Better tell me instead what you think about my comments on Solo's "win" spell lists.


Giacomo, how do you have a WAND OF BLINK and a WAND OF FLY, each worth 10k+ GP, at level FIVE? Or even at level 10 (weren't you going to buy like four other wands, too)?

My comment referred to bypassing walls of force, so it's level 9 area. You seem to be getting tired.
But I do as well. Will go to bed now.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

This is too funny to let it go uncommented...


So, this fighter can kill something because he spent the last 20 levels putting his energy into a sub-optimal mode of combat?

You mean...composite longbow, one of the best weapons in the game, is a "sub-optimal mode of combat". I wonder if anyone here would agree with you. In the big comparison of monk and fighter, THAT is one thing where the fighter has definite advantage and which the monk cannot even hope to emulate.


How are you gettign within range of the balor if he's leading an army anyways?

Hmmm. I could be mistaken, but the composite longbow with the far shot feat and the (at balor levels likely) +1 enhancement of "distance" can shoot quite far...


And why isn't the balor in a more protected enviroment? He can teleport, he never needs to be in the open.

Yes, he can teleport away. Army without leader. Or balor hiding in a tent. Great.
Since in my scenario the balor was killed in the round where he lost initiative, he could no longer teleport.

- Giaocmo

[Collin152]

This is too funny to let it go uncommented...



You mean...composite longbow, one of the best weapons in the game, is a "sub-optimal mode of combat". I wonder if anyone here would agree with you. In the big comparison of monk and fighter, THAT is one thing where the fighter has definite advantage and which the monk cannot even hope to emulate.

Hmmm. I could be mistaken, but the composite longbow with the far shot feat and the (at balor levels likely) +1 enhancement of "distance" can shoot quite far...

- Giaocmo

I mean using ranged weapons.
Or, hell, not being a full caster.

And a general really shouldn't be an easy target. You said yourself, an army without its leader=bad. If he's present in perosn at all, he shouldn't present a target, and he should be surrounded on all sides by his army.
And no, I doubt that you can get that bow to shoot miles and still hit.

[MeklorIlavator]

If I remember correctly, the build only really worked at extremely high levels, possibly only at level 20, due to the extreme costs involved with purchasing items.

[Reel On, Love]

Strap to back of a medium humanoid a colossal size weapon? And have that one enchanted for just that mins/day use? And you tell me the eversmoking bottle or fleeing from combat to return with force are "impractical". Wow.
Many fighters already carry around multiple two-handed weapons. It's just part of D&D. (Why is the weapon Colossal, anyway? It's more likely to be Huge.) In any case, getting it out of a Bag of Holding is A MOVE ACTION (way to ignore that.)
Yes, the eversmoking bottle is HIGHLY impractical. IT STOPS YOUR PARTY FROM DOING ANYTHING OFFENSIVE reliably--and possibly anything, if they start choking.


Wrong posting does not good arguing make. Seriously- how many times do I have to write it:
Monk, 15/16th level, starting STR 14, gets 2 stat gains on STR, gets enlarge effect, gets +6 from divine power, not STR is at 24. That is enough for most purposes. Meanwhile, the fighter has to get higher DEX to get improved grapple which the monk can take as a bonus feat.
That's not "enough for most purposes". The 16th level Fighter started with 18 STR, got 4 increases, and a +6 belt. That's 28. Plus enlarge effect, that's 30.

The monk can't take Stunning Fist as a prerequisiteless bonus feat without losing Stunning Fist. You bring up Stunning Fist so much I assume you take it.
Therefore, the monk with 14 Dex loses Improved Grapple while Enlarged, too.
Meanwhile, the fighter buys Gauntlets of Dexterity +2 instead of your Wand of Divine Power (4000 gp vs. 21,000!) and is fine.


And then their skill department is almost nil.
God, who cares? It's a FIGHTER. Their skill department is almost nil ANYWAY. They fight, they don't use skills.


?Where is the difference?
6d8 + STR, 7 attacks
or
3d6 + higher STR (with 1.5, power attacking for WF/GWF), 4 attacks
How about, oh, Haste for an extra attack? Two pairs of Boots of Speed equal a SINGLE wand of Divine Power (which you will be buying five or six of, during your career!) and last enough for four encounters for sure, what with the free-action on/off.
Oh, and where's the seventh attack coming from? Why do you have haste? Do you have the funds AND PREP ROUNDS to spam THAT from a wand all the time, too?
WS and GWS add four damage alone. 24 STR is 7 damage--30 STR with a 2-hander is +8 more damage than 24 STR and +3 AB (+6 damage). The WF/GWF is another +3 that turns into +6 more damage.
So we're up to... 8, +4, +6... 18 more damage per hit, assuming that Power Attacking for all that is the best option. Sticking with the higher attack bonus may well give him more average damage than PAing to equal the monk. Do you really think being 6 AB down isn't a big deal?



But I mentioned the ways to overcome them.
Not


You can. That's why they are low-level spells.

But items. Like silver sheen.
Silversheen, sure. What has DR/silver, anyway? How about the adamantine and cold iron?



Come on, Reel on, Love, what is this? 4.500 for 50 uses at high levels? Where is the problem?
The problem is that you keep talking about wands, but you're not tracking them. At this point, we're up to three or four wands you use EVERY FIGHT.


It is. Check the costs and availability of items, even abstracting from the partial charge issue.
The partial charge "issue" needs to die already.


Just read my reply to Solo's alleged "win" spells. You'll hardly notice any wand there. So stop please distorting what I say.
I notice a lot of error, though.


You seem to forget that most of these things are offensive in nature. A demon jumping the monk would need to win initiative (the teleport is in the surprise round), get through his good flat-footed AC, get through his saves for his spc attacks. Let us say, until (a well-worded) contingency is around, the monk has a far better chance to survive a demon jumping on him than, say, a sorcerer.
What happens is the demons appear and then the demons and the party roll initiative.
I'm not talking about survival. Everyone's gonna survive. I'm talking about a CR-appropriate, or slightly above CR, challenge.

My point is: What does your monk do now that he doesn't have four rounds to put Divine Power, Haste, Enlarge, and Align Weapon up? The way he won't in MOST encounters, which might not involve enemies teleporting in, but won't involve anyone getting a surprise round, either.


OK, assuming you normally play the game without buff round. Let us see who gets most problems...er...the casters?
Er... no? Clerics and druids buff up in one round. Wizards use largely long-term buffs, and spend one round in combat.
You need four.


Chasing someone who dimension doors away?
And if the monk hides, yes - the enemy can chase him, but they may not notice him (there are not that many creatures or opponents with high spot checks). I never said that it is a 100% winning strategy, it is simply a good strategy when continuing to fight is disadvantageous.
For a lonely monk. For an adventuring party? No. At least half of it can't hide.
Yes, they chase you when you dimension door away. They search the area. Anything too dim to do that likely doesn't have buffs to wait out.


Sigh. Not all the time. Only when it is necessary. Same for the dim door effect.
But apparently, you want to do this whenever the enemy has buffs.
Frankly, most parties *very rarely* find it necessary to run away.



Yes, on a flat plain you so like. Realistically, though, 740ft will take much longer to cover when you do not know exactly where to search or to go.
On the middle grounds between a flat plain (or the Abyss, or an elemental plane, or hilly territory beside a road, or etc etc) and a dungeon full of convenient places to hide, it won't take very long.


Yes, flanking would be infinitely better. Only not in the situation I described, where the group (or the monk if alone) is at a disadvantage.
If they're fighting, they're probably flanking. If the group is already at a disadvantage, running away to hide is a Bad Move and your party will not appreciate it.


They can. It's called suspense in adventures.



That would be a good tactics for the demon to use. Knowing that, the monk would use it only to 1) chase away the demon for a short while to make that demon "wait out the buffs" in order to be able to hide himself as well/heal/ambush. 2) when he believes he can take down the demon in one go before it is able to escape and come back again.
This is actually what I'd call the basics of designing an intelligent enemy.
Okay, he ambushes the demon... without his buffs. That sounds like a bad move. Check your stats without your buffs, Giacomo. You NEED them. For pretty much anthing.


Why should it do that if it thinks it is winning?
Why shouldn't it do that if it thinks it is losing?
Playing it stupid, THAT would actually be lame.
It should do that if it thinks it's winning because adventurers are dangerous.

But most of them don't do that until they're at very low HP (at which point they can be killed before they do it)


Well, apparently in Reel on, Love's world the demons just pop up without some backstory.
But it's better, for instance, to employ them with a background where a BBEG apparently sent them/employed them for a reason and may have an interest to heal him to send him back strengthened (no diplomacy check needed here).
Not being sent by a BBEG willing and capable to heal and buff them is "popping up without backstory"? There's plenty of reasons for demons to be encountered other than being sent by a BBEG.

BTW, what exactly does your party do if these demons appear, hit them a couple of times, disappear... a few minutes later, do it again... run? Hide? Have fun achieving your goals this way.


The monk does not "depend entirely" on short-term buffs. Not more than others.
Giacomo, LOOK AT YOUR MONK'S STATS without his buffs. You have 16 STR... and no weapon finesse... and 3/4 BAB. How do you ever hit anything without your Divine Power? Even with it, only having 24 STR at level 16 is low. Like I said, your Divine Power AB is 6 less than the Fighter's. And how about his defenses? He obviously doesn't have a maxed out Dex and Wis (he doesn't need them, according to you). And he's spent like 40-50k on wands (and maybe another 50k on a Ring of Spell Storing?), which means his Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armor (whoops, no WIS or CON amulet) aren't as good, either.
What's his AC, again? What's his HP?


The barbarian receives a dearly needed spell resistance/protection from spells buff, while the monk uses his divine power.
Protection from Spells? Who casts that? Freedom of Movement, maybe, that's 10 min/level (double that if Extended). Mind Blank, sure, that's 24 hours.


And who is going to wait out a divine power that you need a detect magic with a standard action to discern in the first place? Being hit by the monk in a more powerful way does not suggest to an enemy that there is anything to "wait out" at all. But a wizard turning invisible is.
And vs those enemies you have powerful spells that could escape his grapple, guess what the can monk do? AMF!
AMF, and then move up and... oops. Oh, wait, I forgot. You always have a surprise round vs. enemies with powerful spells. (Secretly: you don't!)


But most importantly: the teleport-at-will creatures are not that often around. And the monk has the highest movement. So it is more difficult to "wait out buffs" against him.
Really? Demons and devils alone make up like half the potential non-good high-level enemies. Dragons can fly out of range, or cast Dim-Door or teleport in high-level cases.


800ft or 100s of kilometres make no difference. Actually, the 800ft is better for being able to faster engage the enemy again with mundane methods.
It makes a huge difference.


You come back. The enemies aren't there. So much for beating them up.
Then you can continue to do what you intended to do in the first place. And if you intended to beat them up, well then do research where they are.
Meanwhile, the enemies are doing what they intended to do in the first place.



Hmmm. Sounds like that is a problem for all.
The point is:
If the encounter is going against you (as in: you'll likely lose!), then it is an ADVANTAGE to be able to flee and come back later, even if the enemy has doubled, disappeared or killed prisoners, because if you would not have fled, then all of this would have happened ONTOP of your own deaths. Great.
Giacomo, you suggested this as a way to *wait out buffs*. Not to escape from certain death. That's what teleport spells, scrolls, etc. are for.

Very few encounters are overwhelming, run-away-in-fear. Many are tough and challenging but quite doable. How do you decide when to run? What if your allies don't agree?


Come on Reel On, Love. This is bascis of tactics. You cannot continue to deny this. If you do, it makes no more sense to discuss it.
If the encounter has been HAPPENING and, maybe some of your party members aren't in any condition to walk over and touch you. If they are, they might as well touch the Wizard for the much-less-risk-of-being-found Teleport.


Use item. Hide. And....why should exactly ALL fights go wrong?
Use item? of what? Do you have a Wand of D-Door now, *too*? Hide? In the middle of the fight? How does it help your party.
Not all fights go wrong, but more than one fight is challenging and more than one fight can include an enemy with spellcasting or buffs. Remember, you suggested this as a way of waiting out buffs.


Well, the monk apparently with the highest move has the best possibility to move away. And you so far failed to answer me this crucial question:
How is a teleport-at-will outsider going to find a monk once he has dim doored away?

- Giacomo
By quickly searching the area by Teleporting and looking around every six seconds. He might not find the Monk or Rogue, but the Fighter, Wizard (might be invisible, but might not--and many demons have See Invis/True Seeing), and Cleric in the party aren't gonna be hiding very well. You're part of a PARTY. That you're not contributing much to.

[Arbitrarity]

Wow, monks are really good! I wish I had realized they were that awesome before!
Now, to make a monk.

Incidentally, at what level do they get each of those?
Also Becuase I said so also needs to be able to force spellcasters to prepare and cast buffs on/for the monk. And Threepwood pockets needs to be able to create custom items

[Sir Giacomo]

Talic, you have succeeded...in keeping me awake with so many mistakes and misperceptions again.


Fighter's job isn't to spot enemies. For those 4 points of wisdom he skimps on, let's give him Iron will to make up.

Ah I see. A weakness is now deemed "it isn't his job". And that feat, combined with improved grapple already makes it 3. That's all of the first level fighter feats (if human).
There was a comparison of a fighter trying to emulate a monk made further up. While the poster thought it showed the fighter was superioer, it actually showed the opposite.


Once in grapple, maybe, but when moving up? Equal footing.

Now that's particularly strange. Grapple includes the whole thing: move up, touch attack AND grappling attempts in grapple. So no equal footing here. Don't make things up.


Absolutely not. Fighters can power attack unarmed too. Fighters can use enhanced gauntlets to bring power up to par (or are you trying to say that WBL isn't a factor? Remember the +6d6+5 gauntlets I mentioned earlier? Fighter ahead.

Did you even read my post above? The 6d5+5 gauntlets will be available at level 20, if at all. And the 200.000gp needed is a DISadvantage for the fighter, since the monk can use this cash to spend on other stuff.
And fighters can use power attack unarmed, but it is only at a 1:1 ratio, which puts them further behind the monk.
Monk ahead.


Ok. Monk wins initiative. Move action draw wand, standard activate divine power. Fighter uses ring of invisibility. Waits out buff.

Well, to pull this thing, the fighter has several problems.
1) the monk has listen, while the fighter has no move silently. The monk will pinpoint him. One grapple touch attack is all that is needed. My normal monk builds will also have blind-fight.
2) the fighter needs to win initiative. If he is reluctant to put the same DEX as the monk, he'll lose it.
3) the fighter needs to be aware of the monk approaching him before the combat starts. Monk wins again.


OR Fighter uses full base attack and the Str +6 belt that he has (instead of a monk's belt), and still has an advantage, with his gauntlets that are vicious, flaming, frost, shock, and merciful. Wins by superior damage and HP.

Loses by more wealth spent. And reduce his base damage die from 1d8 to 1d3 does not sound like a good idea to me.


See above, where I factor in the full round it takes to use that wand,

It just takes a standard action. The wand can be easily alreay in the hands of the monk, who can also attack with his legs.


where you have no mobility, or attacks. At low levels? Maybe. However, at low levels, enlarge is less a factor.

At low levels, enlarge is a KEY factor for grapple. If the fighter does not use it vs the enlarged monk, he loses.


Also, at low levels, enlarged, imp grapple isn't as necessary, since most enemies won't have reach, and thus, won't be making AoO's versus your grapple anyway.

Reach has nothing to do with it. If the enemy is armed or has natural attack, they get an AoO.


After all, if we're competing against Schrodinger's Monk, why not use Schrodinger's fighter, hmm? Using a cloak of charisma, he diplomanced elminster into giving him all his magic items at reduced cost, and then slept with the Simbul. All cross-class, of course.And that fighter will deal with challenges more effectively than the monk, also.

And where is the concrete proof for that? And show me the Schrodinger element of the fictional monk example I used so far.


Your exact words were that a monk only "needs" an 8 wisdom. The obvious counter is that wizards only "need" an int of 10 to cast. That doesn't make them effective, however. Effective monks, you're looking at 12-14 wisdom, 14 dex, 14 con, and, if your DM is running a high power campaign, some int and Str.

How can you compare an AC bonus lost to not being able to cast anything as a spellcaster? A monk with lower AC (by 2 only, btw) "ineffective"? Why?


Or, if running a Giamonk, 18 in every stat, cause the DM gives you 14 in every stat and you diplomance 4 wishes for each.

Well, har..de har har. Like Reel on, Love, you start to get desperate because you are proven wrong time and again.


Ah, that's the beauty of combat. Things acting offensively generally have a hard time hiding, need cover to do it, and take obscene penalties. Even outside of core, it's hard to get an ECL 1 character with a hide above 20.

Ah, the beauty of understanding how stealth works.
Why would you need to have a hide above 20? It's an opposed check vs the enemy's spot.
And how do you think a rogue gets in a sneak attack without flanking or winning initiative?


Incidentally, the penalty to hide for sniping (1 shot, full round action) is, -20. So the 20 dex halfling rogue with 4 ranks in hide, skill focus in hide, and a masterwork tool of hiding, he has a +14. If sniping, he has a -6. I think the fighter can see even him, usually. Even with a -1 wisdom, and no ranks in spot.

? Out of what thinnest air did you come up with here?
Rogue vs fighter? Why, all of a sudden?
The fact remains that sneaky characters will be able to both surprise AND win initiative vs a fighter. That's already one standard and one full-round action vs a flat-footed low-wis fighter. A bit much for my taste. And it gets worse at higher levels.

ach, will sleep now.

- Giacomo

[AmberVael]

Wow, monks are really good! I wish I had realized they were that awesome before!
Now, to make a monk.

Incidentally, at what level do they get each of those?
Also Becuase I said so also needs to be able to force spellcasters to prepare and cast buffs on/for the monk. And Threepwood pockets needs to be able to create custom items

Are you saying the monk wouldn't have these abilities at some point? :smallconfused: They can have them at level 0 if they have to!

[Arbitrarity]

Are you saying the monk wouldn't have these abilities at some point? :smallconfused: They can have them at level 0 if they have to!

Oh, ok. Seems reasonable.

Isn't 0'th level no longer existing, though?

Also Threepwood pockets seems really useful at level 1. You suddenly have MW tools everywhere, and all the rope you need. Y'know, I think those might be useful for some sort of "powergamer" class. He's always prepared!

[Collin152]

Are you saying the monk wouldn't have these abilities at some point? :smallconfused: They can have them at level 0 if they have to!

Assuming a monk ever needed to exist at level 0, seeign how it's so capable of gettign Xp without killing fighting that its a mircale theres any that aren't Epic.

[Reel On, Love]

No. That monk apparently took improved grapple as a bonus feat, and stunning fist at level 12. Since the main tactics was grappling at those levels, there wouldn't be much lost, would there?
Funny that the fighter for this comparison now has MAD, and not them monk, isn't it? Ahhh...the advantages of bonus feats without requirements. So often ignored...:smallamused:
And here I thought stunning fist was your main tactic, and you were touting its effectiveness. Suddenly effective monks take Improved Grapple and wait for level *12* to take Stunning Fist!


Now...where does the full BABs get the greater magic weapon from? Hmmm...:smallsmile:
You're getting desperate here.
Either monk AND the full BABs are buffed equally from outside sources, or none are. Or are you actually suggesting a *gasp* GiaFighter? :smallsmile:
The party cleric. You're welcome to have GMW, too.
But is there any reason the Fighter wouldn't put 1 SP/level into UMD the way you are? IF you can somehow buy all the wands you want and have it fit within your WBL and if,


Those are likely the same people who wonder why their fighters have no chance at high levels vs casters who'll charm them to their heart's content.
At high levels, they get a Mind Blank from a friend-that's one of the buffs that does get passed around.


Yes. You normally focus your stats differently for different classes. Yopr point being? You NORMALLY do that. But you can do it also differently.



Which one? The wand is command-word only.
The wand is command-word... and then you radiate the POWAH OF THE LAWD. You hit with unnatural precision. Etc.


But with a wand of obscuring mist, voila: level playing field. Or the eversmoking bottle...(*dodges Reel On, Love's wrath* :smallsmile: ).
The wand that you can only use every time at *what* level?

No, wait, never mind. What does the wand have to do with it? Does EVERY SINGLE ENEMY have UMD and a wand of obscuring mist now?!
Also, the mist is stationary. The wizard just keeps on walkin'.


? Did I ever, in any post, ever say that a monk with 12.5gp starting money has any magic items?
Most desperate post of you so far.
No, but you consistently assume wands at levels you can't afford them. Note that a level *3* monk can barely afford those 3 wands, and by doing that he isn't buying AC boosters, AB boosters, or saving for stat boosters.
He also can't use them consistently.


Better tell me instead what you think about my comments on Solo's "win" spell lists.
I will, later.


My comment referred to bypassing walls of force, so it's level 9 area. You seem to be getting tired.
But I do as well. Will go to bed now.

- Giacomo
Wand of Blink: 10k
Wand of Fly: 10k
Wand of Divine Power: 20k
Wand of 2nd-level spell (you've already mentioned *several*): 4.5 k
2 wands of first-level spells, *3 for using them over the past 10 levels: 4.5 k

That is 49k gp spent on wands.
Level 9 WBL is 36,000 gp. Level 10 is exactly 49k.

In other words, you can't have all of that. And you have no other items.

The Wand of Divine Power is the big one (and costs over half your WBL--but let's not forget the the 10k wands cost over a quarter, which you're not supposed to do, either).
So lose the Divine Power.
Now you've spent 29k out of 36k. You have 7k left. You do NOT have Divine Power, which means you might as well not bother trying to fight CR 10 enemies. All so you can deal with flight and wall of force.

THIS is what I mean when I say you don't keep track of your wand expenditures and WBL. No character can function that way. You have next to no items besides the wands. God, he's practically naked except for the wands. You ever get caught WITHOUT time to use all your wands, and you're *dead*.

BTW? BLINK DOESN'T GO THROUGH A WALL OF FORCE.

[Collin152]

BTW? BLINK DOESN'T GO THROUGH A WALL OF FORCE.

Next thing you know, he's suggesting he goes through Ethereally.
And technically, given a monk's high speed, he could go around it usign it's etheralness ability.
But then he faces another wall and he's screwed beyond belief.
Unless he uses his Dimension Door ability.
Once.
Do we see a problem developing?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Giacomo, which class do you want your Monk compared to? Rogue, Fighter, what? I personally vote for Rogue as they seem designed to fill the same roll, but it's up to you. Post a build. What you would do if you were building a Monk for a party at level 12. Human race, no templates or anything else, 12 levels of monk. We compare it to a traditional 12th level Rogue. Not for combat, but for actually helping the party. Should help stop the Schroedinger claims, and turn this into an actual debate.

[Reel On, Love]

Ah I see. A weakness is now deemed "it isn't his job". And that feat, combined with improved grapple already makes it 3. That's all of the first level fighter feats (if human).

the Fighter doesn't need Iron Will at level 1.

And no, it really ISN'T his job. Spotting things is the job of people with Spot as a class skill[/b], especially the ones that can use WIS anyway. Ranger? Yeah, it's his job. Druid? he should pretty definitely do it. Monk? Maybe, poor guy doesn't have all the skills he needs (that reminds me: you never did pick four skills to have besides UMD)).


Did you even read my post above? The 6d5+5 gauntlets will be available at level 20, if at all. And the 200.000gp needed is a DISadvantage for the fighter, since the monk can use this cash to spend on other stuff.
And fighters can use power attack unarmed, but it is only at a 1:1 ratio, which puts them further behind the monk.
Monk ahead.
The monk needs his wands, remember? Your monk definitely spends more than 200k on consumables over 20 levels.
+1 etc. gauntlets plus Greater Magic Weapon (that's one of the buffs you *can* usuall count on) don't cost 200k.


How can you compare an AC bonus lost to not being able to cast anything as a spellcaster? A monk with lower AC (by 2 only, btw) "ineffective"? Why?
AC bonus and Stunning Fist.
So tell me, what's your monk's AC? Let's see... 14 DEX, 10 WIS (apparently) makes... 12. Oh, fine, he can have a Mage Armor. 16. [i]Wow.



Well, har..de har har. Like Reel on, Love, you start to get desperate because you are proven wrong time and again.
Giacomo, if you were proving people wrong, you wouldn't be so alone here. You're just making us wonder if you play in actual games. The reason people keep asking is that you insist things will work in actual games that people who play D&D on a regular basis (or maybe just at the levels in question?) know won't work.
The way you assume 10 and 20k GP wands will last forever and aren't a big expenditure is particularily telling. You obviously have no experience equipping a character with UMD.

[Solo]

Re: Comments on my spell list:

Cost of items needed to counter: Quite a lot

Body slots open for the items that must be worn items: Limited. (I hope you don't have more than 3 rings in there, SG, otherwise you'd have to change them out depending on what spell was being cast at you. In advance. The same goes for the other worn items)

Cost for sorcerer to have the spells that will be countered: none

Money available for sorcerer to spend after selecting the spells that are being countered: WBL

Items that can be purchased by sorcerer: Quite a lot.


Just making an observation.

[AmberVael]

Isn't 0'th level no longer existing, though?
It exists if needed to prove the monk's pure awesomeness.

[Arbitrarity]

Just like the "no books but pages 39-42 of PHB" can exist if necessary?

[Sir Giacomo]

Only Solo can wake me up temporarily...


Re: Comments on my spell list:

Cost of items needed to counter: Quite a lot

Yes. 20% of wbl.


Body slots open for the items that must be worn items: Limited. (I hope you don't have more than 3 rings in there, SG, otherwise you'd have to change them out depending on what spell was being cast at you. In advance. The same goes for the other worn items)

Your hope is not in vain. There are rings of protection and blinking. That's all.


Cost for sorcerer to have the spells that will be countered: none

You'll notice that all of the items have different uses for the monk as well. So actually, they, too, have a cost of: none. And not the 20% I mentioned above.


Money available for sorcerer to spend after selecting the spells that are being countered: WBL

And yet you have failed to come up with when to take what item to counter what. And now all of a sudden the mighty Ozymandias HAS to rely on wbl? Welcome back to the realm of normal D&D, then!:smallsmile:


Items that can be purchased by sorcerer: Quite a lot.

Just making an observation.

Yes. You are apparently at a loss to say anthing concrete. Your "win" list has been brought down to the realm of the realistic. And by a monk, at that. But no need to thank me for it...:smallbiggrin:
Meanwhile, your (spell) defenses are good, but not a 100% safety provider at any level.

- Giacomo

PS @Reel on, Love: you do not need to go THROUGH a wall of force or prismatic sphere with the blink, you duck underneath it.:smallwink:
And the monk example never "suddenly" had stunning fist later. The example monk most referred to was level 16, where it does not matter when stunning fist was available at level 1 or 12. And didn't you say it was no great use, anyhow? So why being angry, if I suggest the monk takes it later to focus on something else early in his career and avoid paying more point buy for DEX at level 1?
Ah, and one thing you were right about that I saw: the monk is not at 7 attacks in level 16, but only 6. My bad.
The result still holds, though (I simply mistyped there, usually all the posts before I also referred to 6 attacks with divine power).
EDIT: and btw, I suggest you stop assuming that the monk is using all of his wealth to buy wands. We all know now that you do not agree with me on whether partially charged wands are available or not. So let's leave it at that. The stuff I equipped the anti-Ozymandias monk with even does not need to use any wand. Simply replace the wand of obscuring mist I put in with a horn of fog for 2,000 gp.

[Freelance Henchman]

Since Divine Power seemed to come up so often in this thread (THE POWA OF THA LAWD, I lol'd at that :smallsmile: ), maybe the best "Monk" is simply an unarmed-fighting cleric? He can cast the buff himself, and has loads of money left to buy items that provide something similar to the Monk's class abilities. Plus, he can heal and whatever. And is a full caster.

[Sir Giacomo]

But is there any reason the Fighter wouldn't put 1 SP/level into UMD the way you are?

Didn't you say further up that it does not matter if the fighter has low INT? Shouldn't he get at least some ranks in, say, tumble (cross-class, immensely useful). Or ride?

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Yes, Yes, Yes.

FACTS, guys. The only thing you can do is maintain stuff without backing it up. At least Reel on, Love and Talic are putting some effort into it (which I constantly prove wrong, though).

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Since Divine Power seemed to come up so often in this thread (THE POWA OF THA LAWD, I lol'd at that :smallsmile: ), maybe the best "Monk" is simply an unarmed-fighting cleric? He can cast the buff himself, and has loads of money left to buy items that provide something similar to the Monk's class abilities. Plus, he can heal and whatever. And is a full caster.

Maybe, yes. But he has the same problems as a fighter:
- less no. of attacks and
- less base damage
thus making it not such a great idea to sink two feats into unarmed combat.

- Giacomo

[Collin152]

(which I constantly prove wrong, though).

- Giacomo

Heh, thanks Giamoco! I've been very depressed latley, this is my first laugh all day!

[Freelance Henchman]

Maybe, yes. But he has the same problems as a fighter:
- less no. of attacks and
- less base damage
thus making it not such a great idea to sink two feats into unarmed combat.

On the other hand, he's actually *viable*. As in, he doesn't need to spend more money than he actually has on wands that he is totally dependent on, and is otherwise naked.

Oh, and he could just pick up Power Attack as well and use a morningstar or spear or something when unarmed just doesn't cut it any more. Or gauntlets.

[streakster]

Since Divine Power seemed to come up so often in this thread (THE POWA OF THA LAWD, I lol'd at that :smallsmile: ), maybe the best "Monk" is simply an unarmed-fighting cleric? He can cast the buff himself, and has loads of money left to buy items that provide something similar to the Monk's class abilities. Plus, he can heal and whatever. And is a full caster.

No, no, no! The Artificer is definitely the best monk. I mean, with the number of wands you'd be buying, it's cheaper just to make them yourself.

[Arbitrarity]

But that's teh non-core (== broken/evil).

And it actually is, being an artificer.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Giacomo, I'm waiting for a response or an acknowledgment of some kind. Just to ensure that I was heard.

[streakster]

But that's teh non-core (== broken/evil).

And it actually is, being an artificer.

What do you mean? Oh, I see. Yeah, it is kind of broken, since it's almost as powerful as a real monk. Can't match the "I have all wands, ever" and "The monsters wait until I'm done buffing" abilities, though.

[Sir Giacomo]

After reviewing this thread, I've come to the conclusion that we're forgetting a few abilities that the casters have.
They are detailed below:

[Scrubbed]

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Talic, you have succeeded...in keeping me awake with so many mistakes and misperceptions again.
Again, arrogance and bluster don't make up for ill-founded arguements. Please desist with both. The arguements, you're welcome to continue.


Ah I see. A weakness is now deemed "it isn't his job". And that feat, combined with improved grapple already makes it 3. That's all of the first level fighter feats (if human).
Not needed at 1st level, let's go for 3rd. At 1st, there are few will saves generally, to make, that are game breaking. And yes, when a class is not designed for detection, it doesn't do it. It does what it does well. For fighters, that's hurting things, in a variety of ways. For monks? Well, when your defense at level 1 to a magic missile spell is a 750gp wand? Not much, evidently.

Now that's particularly strange. Grapple includes the whole thing: move up, touch attack AND grappling attempts in grapple. So no equal footing here. Don't make things up.You're right. No equal footing. The fighter is ahead. When the monk moves to start the grapple, he will move up (move action) and grapple (standard action). Assuming he succeeds, both he and the fighter have gotten the same number of attacks this round. Next round, the monk starts getting bonus attacks. Then again, while your level 1 monk purchased his wand of obscuring mist, this fighter got a potion of enlarge. Unlike you, I've stayed in WBL. And still won.

Did you even read my post above? The 6d5+5 gauntlets will be available at level 20, if at all. And the 200.000gp needed is a DISadvantage for the fighter, since the monk can use this cash to spend on other stuff.
And fighters can use power attack unarmed, but it is only at a 1:1 ratio, which puts them further behind the monk.Did you even read the followup? Gauntlets can be gotten way before then, as the effect can be mimicked by a +6 gauntlet. And Greater Magic Weapon. After all, the fighter's doing SOMETHING while you Divine Power. And if you're going to use out of class spells regardless of what others say, try not to criticize others when they use your own tactic against you.

Monk ahead.Glad you think so. Nobody else does.

Well, to pull this thing, the fighter has several problems.
1) the monk has listen, while the fighter has no move silently. The monk will pinpoint him. One grapple touch attack is all that is needed. My normal monk builds will also have blind-fight.
Allow me to point this out. I'll make it bigger so you don't miss it this time.
SRD, Epic Usages of Listen:
Special: A character can use Listen to notice the presence of an invisible creature (generally opposed by a Move Silently check). If the character beats the DC by 20 or more, he or she can pinpoint the location of the invisible creature, though it still maintains total concealment from the character (50% miss chance).

What's that mean? Pinpointing by listen is in the EPIC HANDBOOK. Not core. In this discussion, your basic method of locating the fighter FAILS, by being illegal.
2) the fighter needs to win initiative. If he is reluctant to put the same DEX as the monk, he'll lose it.
3) the fighter needs to be aware of the monk approaching him before the combat starts. Monk wins again.


Loses by more wealth spent. And reduce his base damage die from 1d8 to 1d3 does not sound like a good idea to me.
This from someone who uses a 750gp wand to defeat a level 1 spell? The irony, I love it so.

It just takes a standard action. The wand can be easily alreay in the hands of the monk, who can also attack with his legs.Which wand? You've got a dozen. How can you be sure the right one is in hand when you need it? Oh, right. Schrodinger's monk. My bad.

At low levels, enlarge is a KEY factor for grapple. If the fighter does not use it vs the enlarged monk, he loses.No, he hides, and waits it out. Heh. Further, a level 1 monk has a max WBL of 20gp. Where's he getting the loot for a 50gp potion? Round 73, yet again, goes to me.

Reach has nothing to do with it. If the enemy is armed or has natural attack, they get an AoO.

SRD, Attacks of opportunity:
Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.
Moving

Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
Performing a Distracting Act

Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule. This is: performing an action within a threatened square. Thus, if you're not within a threatened square, you cannot provoke an Attack of Opportunity. Round 74, yet again, to me.


And where is the concrete proof for that? And show me the Schrodinger element of the fictional monk example I used so far.
Simple. It's not defined. Until we open the box and see what the monk is, it is all things, has all feats, has all items, that it happens to need. It's a convenient way to argue, but bottom line, you have the ability to look at your opponent, and design a character, in your head, items and all, to defeat specific situations. That's what Schrodinger's Cat represents. Until the unknown is known, it is everything. Until you nail down a set in stone monk, that everyone here will be more than happy to show you all the flaws in, it will continue to be Schrodinger's Monk.

How can you compare an AC bonus lost to not being able to cast anything as a spellcaster? A monk with lower AC (by 2 only, btw) "ineffective"? Why?Because, the monk has no other source of AC at level 1. Assuming a 10 wisdom, and an 18 dex, the level 1 monk has an AC of 14. No armor to help, no shield to use. He has no more than 10-12 hp, based on a 14 or an 18 con. Which means 2 attacks that hit AC 14 (vs 16) will kill him. 1 attack, if it's by something with a 2 handed weapon. Bear in mind, a 20 str orc barb will be swinging +6 to hit, at 2d6+7. That's assuming a 12 was put in the strength, and the orc is enraged. Do you see how unoptimized that is? And against AC 14, there is a 65% of turning a 14 AC monk into a grease spot. That is how risky a monk with low wisdom is. Very good chance of not even surviving level 1.

Well, har..de har har. Like Reel on, Love, you start to get desperate because you are proven wrong time and again.See above, for "proven wrong". Further, this isn't desperation. It's frustration, because again and again, you refuse to post any solid build to backup your build, and assume your monk has an 18 in whatever stat(s) are convenient at the time. Soon enough, it will turn to resignation, and then to indifference, and I will leave yet another of these pointless monk threads, rather than put up with the type of arguing you do.

Ah, the beauty of understanding how stealth works.
Why would you need to have a hide above 20? It's an opposed check vs the enemy's spot.To keep him from pasting your face in when you fail to snipe? Or when you perform an action? Or to keep him unable to see you when you move over half speed (as you'll want to to maintain cover between you and your prey)? There's a lot of reasons. Believe me. Beating your opponent's spot modifier by 5-6 WILL get you seen. Beating it by 10? Will still get you seen, though it'll take another round or few. Before you state that you know how hide works, please ensure that you do. Round 80-something, again, to me.

And how do you think a rogue gets in a sneak attack without flanking or winning initiative?Difference? Monk gets 1d6+str on his attack from hiding. Rogue gets 1d10+1d6 (heavy crossbow), Further, you overestimate the value of hide. It is EXCEEDINGLY difficult to get within 5 feet of an opponent, and maintain cover or concealment. Exceedingly. Much easier to range attack from stealth. Much more effective, at low levels, also. And a monk's ranged attacks are hardly impressive.

? Out of what thinnest air did you come up with here?
Rogue vs fighter? Why, all of a sudden?
The fact remains that sneaky characters will be able to both surprise AND win initiative vs a fighter. That's already one standard and one full-round action vs a flat-footed low-wis fighter. A bit much for my taste. And it gets worse at higher levels. Quick characters have a good chance of winning initiative. Provided they are always cautious, they'll have a good shot at surprise. However, that's not guaranteed in either case.

Dungeon scenario: Monk opens door. Inside room are 4 goblin warriors. All notice each other at same time. No surprise. Rogue has Initiative 1d20+4. Goblins, 1d20+1. Rogue will likely win initiative. Not guaranteed though. Not by a long shot.

Assuming that an advantage of +2-4 on a roll = auto win, that's a fallacy.

[Sir Giacomo]

Glad to...


Giacomo, which class do you want your Monk compared to? Rogue, Fighter, what? I personally vote for Rogue as they seem designed to fill the same roll, but it's up to you. Post a build. What you would do if you were building a Monk for a party at level 12. Human race, no templates or anything else, 12 levels of monk. We compare it to a traditional 12th level Rogue. Not for combat, but for actually helping the party. Should help stop the Schroedinger claims, and turn this into an actual debate.

Paging further up you'll see an attempt of mine to compare the monk to other sneaky non-full spellcasting classes like rogue and ranger.

I saw nothing that would justify the thread question "Monks...any good?"

Will go back to sleep now...

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

I'll make it bigger so you don't miss it this time.
SRD, Epic Usages of Listen:
Special: A character can use Listen to notice the presence of an invisible creature (generally opposed by a Move Silently check). If the character beats the DC by 20 or more, he or she can pinpoint the location of the invisible creature, though it still maintains total concealment from the character (50% miss chance).

What's that mean? Pinpointing by listen is in the EPIC HANDBOOK. Not core.

DMG. p. 295. core.

- Giacomo

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The point of my request was to get an actual build out of you. I'd like to see what you do with the monk when you aren't prepping for arena combat.

[Arbitrarity]

Hmmm...

Actually, casters (psions) get a power I like to call Ret-Con (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm)

[Scrubbed]

[streakster]

{Scrubbed}

[Arbitrarity]

Actually, Streakster, Project Image is core. And mystic swordsage is OMGWTFBBQ broken as well. It has no defined spell list, and gets spells instead of manuvers. Terrible variant idea.

[Reel On, Love]

PS @Reel on, Love: you do not need to go THROUGH a wall of force or prismatic sphere with the blink, you duck underneath it.:smallwink:
You go underneath...


And the monk example never "suddenly" had stunning fist later. The example monk most referred to was level 16, where it does not matter when stunning fist was available at level 1 or 12. And didn't you say it was no great use, anyhow? So why being angry, if I suggest the monk takes it later to focus on something else early in his career and avoid paying more point buy for DEX at level 1?
Because this is Schroedinger's Monk. You talk about Stunning Fist (including at low levels), and then suddenly suggest a good monk shouldn't take Stunning Fist until later (meanwhile, you've been saying that Fighters get it much later than monks--apparently not true, if you don't take it until 12).


Ah, and one thing you were right about that I saw: the monk is not at 7 attacks in level 16, but only 6. My bad.
The result still holds, though (I simply mistyped there, usually all the posts before I also referred to 6 attacks with divine power).
The result doesn't hold. The extra AB and damage put the fighter over the top, especially with DR involved.


EDIT: and btw, I suggest you stop assuming that the monk is using all of his wealth to buy wands. We all know now that you do not agree with me on whether partially charged wands are available or not. So let's leave it at that. The stuff I equipped the anti-Ozymandias monk with even does not need to use any wand. Simply replace the wand of obscuring mist I put in with a horn of fog for 2,000 gp.
Giacomo, does ANYONE really agree with you? Have you EVER been able to do this in ANY campaign?
The concept of buying wands with 1, 5, 10 charges is ridiculous. The whole point of wands is that they're cheaper because they have charges in "bulk".
This doesn't happen in any game I have ever been in. Everyone would immediately realize that it (a) is completely unsupported by the rules; instead, you have to say that OTHER text, in the middle of unrelated rules, IMPLIES it (even though it really doesn't) and (b) gives low-level characters access to spells they would otherwise have to spend far more on and use far less reliably. Oh, and it makes wands much more affordable for everyone. These are very important implications. Why wouldn't they be spelled out in the magic items section?

[streakster]

Actually, Streakster, Project Image is core. And mystic swordsage is OMGWTFBBQ broken as well. It has no defined spell list, and gets spells instead of manuvers. Terrible variant idea.

Oh, I agree. Quite unbalanced. Nevertheless, a caster that does precisely what he assumes is exaggeration.

Thanks for the note on Project Image, btw.

[PirateMonk]

Y'know, this is actually a lot of fun. We need a thread for making up abilities used in arguments/that the designers forgot.

I support this idea wholeheartedly.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

FACTS, guys. The only thing you can do is maintain stuff without backing it up. At least Reel on, Love and Talic are putting some effort into it (which I constantly prove wrong, though).

"Putting some effort into it"? Like you when you completely ignored my posts when I made you look like a fool and disappeared for a while only to reappear and never address it?

I deleted that post because it was unfair and done from memory, but I saw that build, and it involved being invisible and full attacking the Balor. Not usual fighter strategy, and given your Monk's reliance on UMD I figured your fighter would have the same problem. But I do know that Fighters can be extremely effective without UMD unlike Monks, so you are probably right.

Out of fairness to you, (and because I genuinely want to see your answers to determine if you are even worth bothering with) I am going to find that post somewhere in the last ten or so pages and link it when I do.

In the meantime, make a build. Any build would be great, but if you could make a single Monk build that was decent without using UMD that would prove more. However, when you realize how impossible that is, try to take into account the fact that any wand you buy 1 of at your level, you probably already used two of.

EDIT: And I think both your, Vael's, and the other poster (not looking it up) little spoiler boxes are insulting, childish, and stupid. You could be childish and point out that they did it first, or you could ignore them or call them on it like an adult would.

That aside, your cheap shot against Solo in the Monk Balance Thread is noted, and wrong. He still used Ethrealness, but instead of dismissing it with his standard action, he cast Prot from Evil, in preparation for Dismissing the next round assumably. Clearly any spellcaster would know the action required to dismiss a spell, so it is only fair that he make his decision of what to do that very round with that knowledge.

And also, because Person Man recommended saying good things about people while disagreeing with them, I read through the entire discussion of Blink/Wall of Force in succession knowing the entire time what you meant. And it is quite ingenious. I was highly entertained.

And Vael and someone else, yes the argument can be made that Gia has those problems with his Monks. But instead of making up cute little spoiler boxes, why not make that argument. And even if he genuinely is using all those abilities, he isn't doing it intentionally, it only comes from not having a concrete build. One reason I am a firm supporter of making that build.

Moving it to another thread is fine, but I'd like it to stay out what could hopefully be deemed a serious thread. [Insert lolcat here.]

[Arbitrarity]

I support this idea wholeheartedly.

Ok, I'll get on it. One thread, coming up. Should it be in SMBG, or in here?

[Solo]

FACTS, guys. The only thing you can do is maintain stuff without backing it up. At least Reel on, Love and Talic are putting some effort into it (which I constantly prove wrong, though).

- Giacomo

Funny.

I could have sworn it was the other way.


And yet you have failed to come up with when to take what item to counter what. And now all of a sudden the mighty Ozymandias HAS to rely on wbl? Welcome back to the realm of normal D&D, then!

I say nothing. Merely an observation that sorcerers get lots of powerful magic, then still have money available to do other stuff with.

Honestly, you're coming off as desperate here, SG.

Beside, you and I both know that Ozymandias' salary isn't unlimited, even if he does have tenure.


Yes. You are apparently at a loss to say anthing concrete.

Don't have the time. Am posting in between sessions of nerf wars.

Don't jump to conclusions. Makes you seem desperate.




Your "win" list has been brought down to the realm of the realistic.

This is between you and Talic.


And by a monk, at that. But no need to thank me for it...

By magic items.

What does the monk do to take down the spells? Does he use some sort of monk ability other than "Buy stuff with cash"?

Oh, and no need to thank me for pointing it out.



PS @Reel on, Love: you do not need to go THROUGH a wall of force or prismatic sphere with the blink, you duck underneath it


While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so traveled. You can move at only three-quarters speed (because movement on the Ethereal Plane is at half speed, and you spend about half your time there and half your time material.)

Oh, and if you approach a Prismatic Sphere from below, I'm pretty sure you're still going to have to make saves.

[Talic]

DMG. p. 295. core.

- Giacomo

Ah, ok, so let's see, then, you've still got to make a check above 20. Well above 20. Let's say a fighter is wearing a chain shirt, has a dex of 14, and rolls a 10. After all, that's the build I started with for a typical level 1 fighter. That's a +2 dex, -2 Armor, and overall, DC 30. Now, suddenly this pinpointing thing doesn't seem so easy. After a level 10 monk, with 13 ranks in listen and a +4 wisdom would, well, have, um... Oh right, less than a 50% chance of succeeding. (40% to be exact). Now, spending a move action to actively listen would put you at a 64% chance, but now, assuming he's more than 5 feet away, you don't have the movement to reach him and still attack.

So now, the fighter dips into his 2nd bag of tricks when he notices this, and uses his withdraw action to move 60 feet away. Now your check gets a -12 penalty, and he gets a -5 to move silent. Now you have a 5% notice chance. If you don't see him this round, he moves 90 feet away, where he can stand there all day, rolling 1's on his move silent, and you'll not be able to hear him. Ready an action to move if you do anything, and elect to take it only if you move within 90 feet, or attempt to break LOS.

This is assuming he didn't activate it and move 30 feet away off the bat, which would have given you a 35% chance. Again, assuming 18 wisdom, and 13 ranks in listen.

Now ya see why the chance of finding someone is so slim? and why fighters don't invest heavily in listen as a cross class?

Better yet, the fighter stands 5 feet from you the whole time, with a ready action to move if you attack, where he moves to 5 feet outside of your threat range. Pinpoint him all you want. You'll never get an attack off. Buff waited out.

Oh wait, you were saying something about opponents shouldn't roll over and play dead for wizards? Same is true for monks.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please address yourselves to the substance of the issue rather than the qualities of the persons involved. Thank you.

[Solo]

Now ya see why the chance of finding someone is so slim? and why fighters don't invest heavily in listen as a cross class?

Because cross class skills are so expensive that you'll have a lot of trouble making the DCs?

[Talic]

Because cross class skills are so expensive that you'll have a lot of trouble making the DCs?

No, that even characters that focus on listen and spot can be hard pressed to succeed at them.

Then you add in gimping half the rank bonus off. It's not conducive to success.

EDIT: Just to be clear, no person gimps that. The rules of cross class skills do. Same investment, half the payout, on a limited skill base as is. Not good.

[AmberVael]

Moving it to another thread is fine, but I'd like it to stay out what could hopefully be deemed a serious thread. [Insert lolcat here.]

This thread has gone so far past reasonable discussion that I don't think keeping it serious will have much of an impact.
Really, you're on page 33 of a whirling dispute that has gone exactly nowhere.

While my post may not have been as polite and nice as it could have been, it at least served a purpose- it entertained. It did point out the flaws of his builds and arguments as well (again- most people have stated them over and over and over) so you can't fault it for not being proper criticism- it was just stated in an unusual manner. The rest of this thread is simply a spiraling, circling debate that will not be won because everyone is entrenched in their own opinions and ideas, so really, if I try something different, who cares?

Agree to disagree, or at least get some fun out of the level of absurdity we've taken this to. That's my opinion, at least. It's not going to end until someone either just gets bored or too angry.

I apologize for my lack of tact, however. I'm sorry that I offended people.

[Talic]

Bored is likely. I shall be angered into no more infractions. No matter how effectively I am frustrated.

[Pocketa]

Don't play monk if you don't want the silly haircut.

[Talic]

I wonder, should I be an orthodox Soloist, a reformed Soloist, or a priest of the great Solthulhu? Are there any domain differences? Which sect of Soloism suits my style best? What do each have to offer?

Which bar monks from entry? Because, sorry, but the elitism of a group is defined by who it rejects. And I'm in an elitist mood right now, so we'll start with the lowliest of classes.

[Solo]

I wonder, should I be an orthodox Soloist, a reformed Soloist, or a priest of the great Solthulhu? Are there any domain differences? Which sect of Soloism suits my style best? What do each have to offer?

Which bar monks from entry? Because, sorry, but the elitism of a group is defined by who it rejects. And I'm in an elitist mood right now, so we'll start with the lowliest of classes.

Well, you see, Orthodox Soloists play only full casters or gishes. Barbarians and ToB classes are permitted.

Reformed Soloists play all sorts of characters, they just optimize them a great deal.

Worshipers of Great Solothulhu do things like play the wizard with a +15 deflection bonus to AC and 60 ft fly (perfect) at ECL4, or the Major Creation Antimatter Doomsday spell.

They're all fine choices, take your pick really.

[Talic]

Well, you see, Orthodox Soloists play only full casters or gishes. Barbarians and ToB classes are permitted.

Reformed Soloists play all sorts of characters, they just optimize them a great deal.

Worshipers of Great Solothulhu do things like play the wizard with a +15 deflection bonus to AC and 60 ft fly (perfect) at ECL4, or the Major Creation Antimatter Doomsday spell.

They're all fine choices, take your pick really.

Hmmm, I'm definately a Solothulhuist. It's in keeping with my cleric that hard cast a miracle at Character level 3.

I'm looking at the Cheese domain. Does it grant immunity to cheese whilst still preserving the cleric's own cheese, like a dragon's breath weapon? Or must I temporarily lose my cheese to activate the ability?

[Solo]

Hmmm, I'm definately a Solothulhuist. It's in keeping with my cleric that hard cast a miracle at Character level 3.

I'm looking at the Cheese domain. Does it grant immunity to cheese whilst still preserving the cleric's own cheese, like a dragon's breath weapon? Or must I temporarily lose my cheese to activate the ability?

Would it make sense for the Cheese domain to nerf itself? :smalltongue:

[Illiterate Scribe]

Well, you see, Orthodox Soloists play only full casters or gishes. Barbarians and ToB classes are permitted.

Reformed Soloists play all sorts of characters, they just optimize them a great deal.

Worshipers of Great Solothulhu do things like play the wizard with a +15 deflection bonus to AC and 60 ft fly (perfect) at ECL4, or the Major Creation Antimatter Doomsday spell.

They're all fine choices, take your pick really.

Well, as a priest of the church of LordofProcrastination, I must smite your Aasimar wizard who turns into a ravid with alter self!

But anyway,

http://www.roflcat.com/images/cats/270913946_efa38ec3d8.jpg

Don't let it die, or get locked.

[Talic]

Would it make sense for the Cheese domain to nerf itself? :smalltongue:


This is D&D. Since when do things make sense?

[Solo]

This is D&D. Since when do things make sense?

By the will of Solothulhu, the Cheese domain is ruled as protecting you from cheese, ie, harmful stuff like giant monstrous kobolds.

Beneficial cheese can still be enjoyed at your leisure.

[Talic]

By the will of Solothulhu, the Cheese domain is ruled as protecting you from cheese, ie, harmful stuff like giant monstrous kobolds.

Beneficial cheese can still be enjoyed at your leisure.




Heretic! Let us see how you manage to do that with a CR appropriate challenge while my wizard dances around you doing the MC hammer shuffle singing out "Can't touch this".

Where is your Lord of Procrastination now?

The great Solothulhu has spoken. Let those who have ears, hear his words (on a DC 15 listen check). Let those who have tentacles, devour the Brains of the heretic*.

*grapple checks may apply.

[Nebo_]

Yep.
(just for Nebo: warning! Sarcasm!)

Giacomo, your posts have become very unpleasant. I retract my earlier statement about respecting your politeness.

[Scrubbed]

[Rutee]

I have a question: Polymorph and whatnot don't remove one's own (Ex), (Su), or whatnot attacks right? And they do or don't interfere with spellcasting?

[Sir Giacomo]

Good morning everyone,

OK, time to once again calm it down. Sorry.

Before devoting more of my posting time for my own monk build example (which many of you already rightfully awake), let me try to do some interim summary of the thread with as much neutrality as I can muster, from my point of view.

The question was brought up by the OP "Monks...any good?".

To illustrate how weak and useless the monk class is to contribute, the following major issues were raised:

1) The monk cannot do as much damage as the other melee classes.
My point was that with the simple use of the divine power spell, this could be equated at high levels, either with or without UMD. And even surpassed for a short while, due to 2 more attacks in full attack, for instance at 16th level with a divine power monk flurrying enlarged, with improved natural attack able to reach around 50 damage/hit (with roughly the same chance of hitting as a full BAB class without weapon focuses; and having more two more highest level BAB attacks, so the monk will acutally hit MORE often)
This was opposed for various reasons:
- my calculations were denied and found wrong (so far I fail to see why btw)
- what is the monk going to do at lower levels? My answer had been to use grappling tactics (see also point 2) ) below)
- divine power will not be up all the time, can be waited out, is only there for 1 encounter/day. My counterargument to this was basically: yes, but without a divine power the monk does not get all of a sudden completely "ineffective" in combat, nor would it be OK if he DID have a way to overcome the BAB difference consistently, or he would be ahead of the other full BAB classes due to his many defenses. This was widely denied.

2) The monk does not have anything where he excels, and thus has no role
Here I objected with the following (counterarguments in brackets)
- the PHB roles of spy, scout, assassin, infiltrater, opportunist combatant are all easily filled with what the class provides, and being an anti-spellcaster besides (This was widely denied, by denying the following niches).
- he has the highest movement (but this really only kicks in later, and you only need the 60ft a fly effect provides). This better movement means the monk can escape badly running encounters, but this was denied as a viable tactics.
- he has the most number of attacks (but this almost never materialises, because it is hard to get off a full attack)
- he has the great ms/hide/spot/listen combo available, which apart from him, only rogue and ranger have. A direct comparison of mine of these classes showed imo no significant power differences. (This was widely denied.) In combination with the high movement, the monk makes a great scout. (This was also widely denied).
- the monk is the best grappler in the game, due to higher no. of attacks, improved grapple and improved unarmed strike as bonus feats, and due to higher base damage which stacks better eventually with larger sizes than any kind of core weapon. (Again, despite some calculations of mine this was denied, despite my suggestion that carrying around huge size+ weapons and enchanting those is not such a practical idea).
- the monk of all non-caster classes has the best defenses available, particular vs magic, including improved evasion as the only base class, SR as the only class, best base saves, highest touch AC. (This was widely denied as not mattering at all, since, for instance, there hardly ever will be reflex-half attacks -because such spells are so sub-par allegedly-, fighters do not need a high will save, SR is too weak vs same level or higher spell attacks, the touch AC can be surmounted with a quickened true strike -the last one I bring up right now, I think it is a good counterargument so far not mentioned in this thread).

3) The monk relies too much on wbl
Here I showed as an example that denying Solo's sorcerer spell choice - widely considered as very good to take - means countering even consistently safe winning ways only take up 20% of the monk's eventual wbl (and those items can be well used also for other situations, meaning no real extra costs).
This was not denied in detail so far, but it can be expected there will be opposition to my remarks.
Further, my point was that the monk of all non-caster classes needs least of all classes any items, since so many of his class abilities already emulate/equal what standard items do: save boosters, touch AC boosters, immunity providers (poison, disease), dimension door ability (like the cloak of the mountebank), SR item or buff etc.
This was widely denied without being specific according to my memory.

4) The Giamonk is using too many consumable items
UMDing wands is a great tactics for anyone, including the monk, but this is widely denied. Including the denial side is an argument that it is not providing the right fluff to a monk class to be wielding a lot of magic.
While the fluff part is up to everyone's individual taste, imo I showed that the items are fairly cheap for what they do (e.g. enlarge wand with 50 uses for 750gp, divine power wand with 50 uses at 16th level for 21,000). In particular Reel On, Love, though, denies this. In particular the notion of items freely available in all quantity in all variety (including parially charged wands) irritates him (while I would believe it is RAW, also quoting the DMG passages, which Reel On, Love, though, would interpret differently).

Overall, in the comparisons of the monk vs non-caster classes I found that the standards were not the same. The monk was supposed to be able to survive a gate spell, or show to repeatedy to get out of tight situations with a dimdoor spell (what do barbarians, fighters and rogues do in the same situation then?).

Will concentrate on the monk build now. And on real life work :smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

[Talic]

I have a question: Polymorph and whatnot don't remove one's own (Ex), (Su), or whatnot attacks right? And they do or don't interfere with spellcasting?

Unless you change into a form unable to issue the verbal and somatic components, yes. Shapechange, however, replaces your supernatural abilities with theirs, which is why sorcerors shapechanging into Nymphs is cheesy. Charisma to AC and saves, anyone?

[Sir Giacomo]

I have a question: Polymorph and whatnot don't remove one's own (Ex), (Su), or whatnot attacks right? And they do or don't interfere with spellcasting?

Polymorph does not rid you of your own ex/su attacks, correct.
Polymorph DOES interfere with your spellcasting, if you change into a form incapable of using somatic (are appendixes hand-like enough for fine maninpulation?) or verbal (can the new form speak?) or material (has the component pouch melded into your new form?) components.
This is why the wildshape/natural spell feat combo is considered so good for the druid.

- Giacomo

[Nebo_]

Damn, my witty post was left abandoned on the last page.

[Sir Giacomo]

imo it's also better that it was left abandoned.

- Giacomo

[Rutee]

- my calculations were denied and found wrong (so far I fail to see why btw)
Check the posts that did it; They demonstrably showed Monk damage being lower.

- what is the monk going to do at lower levels? My answer had been to use grappling tactics (see also point 2) ) below)
Grappling is an ineffective set of tactics to begin with.

- divine power will not be up all the time, can be waited out, is only there for 1 encounter/day. My counterargument to this was basically: yes, but without a divine power the monk does not get all of a sudden completely "ineffective" in combat, nor would it be OK if he DID have a way to overcome the BAB difference consistently, or he would be ahead of the other full BAB classes due to his many defenses. This was widely denied.

What good is a defense if you aren't targetted? Is there some sort of difference between AC 400 and AC 0, when nobody is attacking you?


- the PHB roles of spy, scout, assassin, infiltrater, opportunist combatant are all easily filled with what the class provides, and being an anti-spellcaster besides (This was widely denied, by denying the following niches).
Anti-spellcaster was flat out denied, yes, but nobody denied that Spy, Scout, Assassin, etc exist. The problem was that the Rogue does it better.


- the monk is the best grappler in the game, due to higher no. of attacks, improved grapple and improved unarmed strike as bonus feats, and due to higher base damage which stacks better eventually with larger sizes than any kind of core weapon. (Again, despite some calculations of mine this was denied, despite my suggestion that carrying around huge size+ weapons and enchanting those is not such a practical idea).
I believe it was Vael who provided counter examples and disproved the idea of the Monk being the best grappler in the game?


- the monk of all non-caster classes has the best defenses available, particular vs magic, including improved evasion as the only base class, SR as the only class, best base saves, highest touch AC. (This was widely denied as not mattering at all, since, for instance, there hardly ever will be reflex-half attacks -because such spells are so sub-par allegedly-, fighters do not need a high will save, SR is too weak vs same level or higher spell attacks, the touch AC can be surmounted with a quickened true strike -the last one I bring up right now, I think it is a good counterargument so far not mentioned in this thread).
Your defenses don't matter when there's so many spells that ignore the things you specialize in, and when melee can move past you and strike other characters. Also, the monk build you posted didn't seem to have good defenses.. 12 Dex, 16 Wis or so at level 12? With most of your WBL going towards wands and the like rather then stat boosters or defensive items, so your AC was only good with Polymorph... which would mean that it's not very good Touch AC under ordinary circumstances.


3) The monk relies too much on wbl
Your memory is wrong; Your Giacomonk /blows through/ their WBL. There's nothing inherent to the Monk Class that causes them to spend more WBL; There is the fact that /your/ monk focuses so highly on consumables, however, that too much cash goes up in smoke.


In particular the notion of items freely available in all quantity in all variety (including parially charged wands) irritates him (while I would believe it is RAW, also quoting the DMG passages, which Reel On, Love, though, would interpret differently).
You believe incorrectly; That you walk the path of self deception is unfortunate, but Partially Charged Wands have not been shown to be RAW. Period.

[Sixscimitars]

Can someone please explain as to why a monk can easily max out a cross-class skill which requires Intelligence to have good ranks in, one of the stats that the monk needs the least, and Charisma to use properly, the monk's other least-needed stat, while say, a bard, which has it as a class skill, gets more skill points, has good Charisma, and is naturally proficient with several wands and scrolls, while also bringing in diplomacy that breaks the game is somehow less proficient?
Just a question on your earlier "Use Magic Device to kill everything" posts. And no, they aren't any good. Actually, hold on... A monk could make a decent recurring antagonist! Think about it- they're annoyingly hard to kill, they are likely to only slow the party down...

[Rutee]

A Wizard Did It?

[Nebo_]

Can someone please explain as to why a monk can easily max out a cross-class skill which requires Intelligence to have good ranks in, one of the stats that the monk needs the least, and Charisma to use properly, the monk's other least-needed stat, while say, a bard, which has it as a class skill, gets more skill points, has good Charisma, and is naturally proficient with several wands and scrolls, while also bringing in diplomacy that breaks the game is somehow less proficient?

No, nobody can explain that, because that's not the way it works. Giacomo's arguments are pure swiss.