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GoC
2008-03-20, 12:50 PM
Are fighters really dependant on their magic items?
Would a 20th level commoner with WBL be more effective than a 20th level VoP fighter?
Assume they fight eachother and various monsters.
They fight in four different sites. A forrest, a city, a dungeon and a flat plane.

Feel free to give the commoner whatever items you would use if you decided to play a 20th level commoner.:smalltongue:

Mr. Friendly
2008-03-20, 12:51 PM
It depends on the items the Commoner chooses.

If he has items that let him Wish for example....

nargbop
2008-03-20, 01:08 PM
Boots of Flying. Wand of magic missile, the weakest kind.

Win for the Commoner.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-20, 01:27 PM
Boots of Flying. Wand of magic missile, the weakest kind.

Win for the Commoner.

That'd only end up being an average of 3.5 * 50 = 175 damage to the Fighter. The Fighter (with all those sweet VoP ability increases) would only need a Con bonus of +4 to survive that. (Also, the Fighter would have to be dumb enough to stay outdoors.)


Basically, it depends on the combat environment, and exactly what the Commoner has. VoP gives you more or less WBL-equivalent abilities, but it lacks things like mobility magic (flight, teleportation, etc.), and has no room for customization. You're pretty generic and missing key abilities. (Also, no ranged attacks, I think?)

If it were down to a deathmatch melee, the Fighter would probably overwhelm the Commoner.

Zincorium
2008-03-20, 01:28 PM
Boots of Flying. Wand of magic missile, the weakest kind.

Win for the Commoner.

Crossbow, crossbow sniper feat, rapid reload. Commoner goes down hard.

VoP character can carry non-magical, non-masterwork simple weapons, a light crossbow, while skirting the intent certainly, is allowable by the rules.

If you want to be really strict, sling.

GoC
2008-03-20, 01:34 PM
Basically, it depends on the combat environment, and exactly what the Commoner has.

Clarified (I hope).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-20, 01:36 PM
Crossbow, crossbow sniper feat, rapid reload. Commoner goes down hard.

VoP character can carry non-magical, non-masterwork simple weapons, a light crossbow, while skirting the intent certainly, is allowable by the rules.

If you want to be really strict, sling.Magic item of wind wall at-will. And toss in a few more wands. The fighter can be utterly shut down fairly simply.

Alternatively, the commoner just buys a Candle of Invocation and wins.

Renegade Paladin
2008-03-20, 01:37 PM
I once built a 20th level VoP human fighter. I literally ran out of exalted feats he qualified for. :smallamused:

Indon
2008-03-20, 01:38 PM
Boots of Flying. Wand of magic missile, the weakest kind.

Win for the Commoner.

Firstly, the Fighter will outdamage a wand of magic missile with a sling and normal rocks (which actually have a penalty compared to bullets, but he shouldn't worry).

Secondly, in the hands of the Commoner a wand only has 20 uses a day, on average - if he rolls a 1 on his UMD check he can not use the wand again that day.

I'm going to go with, short of significant rules exploitation on the part of the commoner (such as abuse of Candles of Invocation) the fight will go to the Fighter.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 01:45 PM
Ring of Invisibility. A couple Stones of Controlling Earth Elementals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#stoneofControllingEarthElemental s), and Figurines of Wonderous Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#figurinesofWondrousPower), plus a couple wands (in case of Nat 1) of Glitterdust. Heck, have a Cube of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cubeofforce), "just in case," or a Bead of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beadofforce) to give you 10 minutes to get all your friends out and ready.

Alternatively, buy a +5 Scythe, and Dust of Sneezing and Choking. And have your summoned critters around to Coup-de-Grace as well.

Or buy a level 20 wizard for the day.

Or do any other number of things having 780,000 gold for 1 fight lets you do, that aren't even considered cheesy.

Good game, Fighter.

Roderick_BR
2008-03-20, 01:50 PM
Magic item of wind wall at-will. And toss in a few more wands. The fighter can be utterly shut down fairly simply.

Alternatively, the commoner just buys a Candle of Invocation and wins.
The fighter can throw simple weapons like daggers. There's a % miss chance, but he can, sure as heck outlast the commoner's HP.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 01:56 PM
The fighter can throw simple weapons like daggers. There's a % miss chance, but he can, sure as heck outlast the commoner's HP.

Not if the commoner has bought up +11 Con from items. Which, oh wait, he CAN. EASILY.

Mr. Friendly
2008-03-20, 01:57 PM
Boots of Flying, Necklace of Fireballs, Mirror of Opposition and a couple potions of Protection From Arrows.

Commoner takes the Mirror of Opposition (carefully) and straps it to his forearm like a tower shield (no actual protection granted; shiny side away from him) he flies near the fighter (not too close) so the fighter sees his reflection. A copy of the fighter pops out of the mirror and fights the real fighter. They are equal, so the copy may or may not kill the real fighter. We will say the real fighter wins though. At that point, the Commoner starts chucking fireballs til the fighter is dead.

Alternate other kills are easy enough though..

sikyon
2008-03-20, 01:58 PM
Crossbow, crossbow sniper feat, rapid reload. Commoner goes down hard.

VoP character can carry non-magical, non-masterwork simple weapons, a light crossbow, while skirting the intent certainly, is allowable by the rules.

If you want to be really strict, sling.

A simple item of forcecage 2/day and oil + a torch + boots of flying + item of wind wall 1/day will do the trick.

Wind wall him around him so he can't shoot you, forcecage him with the barred version. Get some burning oil into the cage with him, and forcecage him again to suffocate him to death.

Frosty
2008-03-20, 02:11 PM
What if the Commoner is restricted to staying on the ground (not burrowing)? then how close does the fight become?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 02:13 PM
Are fighters really dependant on their magic items?
Would a 20th level commoner with WBL be more effective than a 20th level VoP fighter?
Assume they fight each other and various monsters.
They fight in four different sites. A forrest, a city, a dungeon and a flat plane.

Feel free to give the commoner whatever items you would use if you decided to play a 20th level commoner.:smalltongue:

Just to clarify that does include all source books, PRCs, templates and 760,000 gp suggested wealth by level.

There is always the option of taking the Leadership feat and bringing your Wizard cohort.

UglyPanda
2008-03-20, 02:13 PM
What if the Commoner is restricted to staying on the ground (not burrowing)? then how close does the fight become?

Then it comes down to initiative and whether or not the commoner is allowed to have a custom +30 to UMD item in order to use his scroll(s) of forcecage. Maybe of scroll of Moment of Prescience to have a better chance of winning initiative.

Frosty
2008-03-20, 02:22 PM
He can have whatever can be found specifically in the DMG and the BoED.

Zincorium
2008-03-20, 02:24 PM
A simple item of forcecage 2/day and oil + a torch + boots of flying + item of wind wall 1/day will do the trick.

Wind wall him around him so he can't shoot you, forcecage him with the barred version. Get some burning oil into the cage with him, and forcecage him again to suffocate him to death.

I was pointing out that it wasn't as easy as boots of flying and a wand of magic missile, which the poster I was replying to stated.

If we want to go the full cheese-by-items route, a 10th level commoner with a ring of invisibility and 3 candles of invocation can pretty much destroy the fighter utterly. WBL is that good.

Mr. Friendly
2008-03-20, 02:34 PM
I imagine the Commoner could even win using the Treasure per Encounter value of 80,000 GP.

And not even get really cheesy about it.

GoC
2008-03-20, 02:39 PM
Just to clarify that does include all source books, PRCs, templates and 760,000 gp suggested wealth by level.

There is always the option of taking the Leadership feat and bringing your Wizard cohort.

1. Yes, but the commoner can't take any other class excpet commoner.
2. no leadership

Ok, so everyone agrees that the commoner beats the fighter? then what about each of them versus monsters?

Eldariel
2008-03-20, 02:41 PM
Leadership is something the Fighter qualifies for too. Let's just ignore the possibility; Cohorts make everything excessively messy.

puppyavenger
2008-03-20, 02:51 PM
CAndles of invocation
SCroll of gate,
Scroll of mindrape

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 03:13 PM
1. Yes, but the commoner can't take any other class excpet commoner.
2. no leadership

Ok, so everyone agrees that the commoner beats the fighter? then what about each of them versus monsters?

Commoner - 20 without the leadership feat for the cohort against a VoP fighter -20 has a high probability of winning everything being equal although things like Gates and Wish cheese really skew things in favor of the commoner if he isn't dropped in that first round.

IMO what makes it less than 100% is the premise that the Fighter is completely nerfed when he should have access to the same sources with the exception of magical items due to the VoP restriction.

It is fine to limit the Commoner - 20 but most fighters PRC at some point after F-4 and some templates could really give the fighter a boost.

I agree three is a high probability that the commoner should usually be able to achieve a win when he knows what he is up against with magical gear.

Say the commoner is expecting to encounter the VoP fighter in the woods. What if the fighter is a were bear or were eagle in animal form?


e

Chronos
2008-03-20, 03:21 PM
Does Vow of Poverty grant any damage reduction or fast healing? Because if not, the commoner can just fly out of crossbow range and drop things on the fighter. The only items he needs are something that gives unlimited flight (a flying carpet, say, or a flying mount) and a whole bunch of rocks (he can land at a distance to pick up more as needed, taking advantage of his greater speed).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 03:23 PM
Does Vow of Poverty grant any damage reduction or fast healing? Because if not, the commoner can just fly out of crossbow range and drop things on the fighter. The only items he needs are something that gives unlimited flight (a flying carpet, say, or a flying mount) and a whole bunch of rocks (he can land at a distance to pick up more as needed, taking advantage of his greater speed).

Yes regeneration 20/hour and DR 10/Evil and DR 5/ Magic along with True Seeing for those Invisible types.

puppyavenger
2008-03-20, 03:28 PM
Yes regeneration 20/hour and DR 10/Evil and DR 5/ Magic along with True Seeing for those Invisible types.

So a magic evil eavy repating crossbow(have to use those feats for something) should be able to do more than 20 points of damage per hour.

Indon
2008-03-20, 03:33 PM
So a magic evil eavy repating crossbow(have to use those feats for something) should be able to do more than 20 points of damage per hour.

What if the Fighter takes cover somewhere?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-20, 03:34 PM
Rocks Fall.

(literally, that's what Bags of Holding are for, after all)

puppyavenger
2008-03-20, 03:44 PM
What if the Fighter takes cover somewhere?


Brilliant Energy
A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the itemís weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition.

Strong transmutation; CL 16th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, gaseous form, continual flame; Price +4 bonus.

brilliant energy unholy heavy repeating crossbow then.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 03:48 PM
So a magic evil eavy repating crossbow(have to use those feats for something) should be able to do more than 20 points of damage per hour.

Sure but the fighter isn't supposed to be a punching bag. If the Fighter is underestimated he gets to take unknown actions which most posters seem to think will be limited to attacks with simple weapons which will be ineffective against a flying and or or invisible commoner.

IMO a CR20 encounter with a VoP "Fighter" would be more inclined to include things like a Ranger, Paladin, Swordsage Monk, Psychic Warrior, Were bear or eagle Fighter or Barbarian who have PRCS that address some of the weaknesses in the VoP. The encounter doesn't normally come out statted and nerfed mechanically.

JWhitehead
2008-03-20, 03:57 PM
These sort of silly match up always seem to boil down to a group of people saying "magic always wins QUED" and a smaller group trying to defend melee. Certainly the thread wasn't about this when it started though it appears to be that way:smalleek:.
I just wanted to ask, for all these amazing hypothetical wizards how often in high level campaigns does it all just go pear shaped for you? how often does the ultimate circle of defence just fall flat? Players rarely act as they are supposed to in the best of cicumstances. I dont think magic always wins, its just far easier to win with which attracts a lot of people looking for simple answers.
Anyway I digress, what I wanted to say is that this doesnt come down to spells in my opinion, it comes down to which character is being played by the cannier person, A npc fighter goon would go down like a sack of bricks to a well equiped pc commoner but by the same logic I would like to think that a gusty player could take down a silly magic item using commoner npc too.
Unfortunately my book of exhalted deeds is halfway round the country now so I cant add more to the arguement by pointing out things from it a fighter could take to even the odds but Im sure there are some
If you've read this far though my rant without raging, thankyou

GoC
2008-03-20, 04:03 PM
Commoner - 20 without the leadership feat for the cohort against a VoP fighter -20 has a high probability of winning everything being equal although things like Gates and Wish cheese really skew things in favor of the commoner if he isn't dropped in that first round.

IMO what makes it less than 100% is the premise that the Fighter is completely nerfed when he should have access to the same sources with the exception of magical items due to the VoP restriction.
Umm... the fighter does have access to the same sources.


It is fine to limit the Commoner - 20 but most fighters PRC at some point after F-4 and some templates could really give the fighter a boost.

I agree three is a high probability that the commoner should usually be able to achieve a win when he knows what he is up against with magical gear.

Say the commoner is expecting to encounter the VoP fighter in the woods. What if the fighter is a were bear or were eagle in animal form?


e
Hmm... things are complicated enough. Let's wait until the verdict on the as-is fighter comes in ok?

JWhitehead: I thought it was understood that we're assuming two equally intelligent players?

Zincorium
2008-03-20, 04:24 PM
These sort of silly match up always seem to boil down to a group of people saying "magic always wins QUED" and a smaller group trying to defend melee. Certainly the thread wasn't about this when it started though it appears to be that way:smalleek:.

That's really not it. The fact is, the commoner can gain access to a much wider variety of effects than the fighter can, due to the strict limitations on what VoP does. Restricted Magic vs. Unrestricted Magic is really the question here.


I just wanted to ask, for all these amazing hypothetical wizards

Yes, really, let's go to a completely off topic discussion. Or not. Because for the purpose of this challenge, wizards don't exist.


how often in high level campaigns does it all just go pear shaped for you?

As often as the DM and the luck of the dice make it happen. Which is true for any class and build, even the absurd CharOp ones. But less often than an artificially restricted (which is what VoP is) melee character given the same circumstances.


how often does the ultimate circle of defence just fall flat? Players rarely act as they are supposed to in the best of cicumstances. I dont think magic always wins, its just far easier to win with which attracts a lot of people looking for simple answers.

So, easier to win is somehow not synonymous with better anymore? Magic isn't the simple answer. It's the complex one. It takes research to take advantage of it's versatility and singularly powerful effects. Smashing stuff is the simple answer, and in many cases not the right one.


Anyway I digress

At least you admit that this has nothing to do with the OP. Kudos for the honesty.


what I wanted to say is that this doesnt come down to spells in my opinion, it comes down to which character is being played by the cannier person, A npc fighter goon would go down like a sack of bricks to a well equiped pc commoner but by the same logic I would like to think that a gusty player could take down a silly magic item using commoner npc too.

Stupidity always loses, yes.

But when both people are intelligent, VoP eliminates most tactics the smart person would be using, and a fighter has nothing that compensates for VoP, which is why nobody uses that combo either.


Unfortunately my book of exhalted deeds is halfway round the country now so I cant add more to the arguement by pointing out things from it a fighter could take to even the odds but Im sure there are some
If you've read this far though my rant without raging, thankyou

You're sure? Bad thing to be sure of, in my opinion.

There is not a single exalted feat that would help unless the commoner is evil (not part of the parameters) or the fighter has no interest in hurting the commoner (which makes the challenge moot even if the fighter got an advantage) and those only help the fighter if the commoner is being played by an idiot.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 04:51 PM
These are not the most optimized fighters within the OP parameters so I would prefer to see tactics that would "deal" with all of them not plinking with a cross bow or multiple wands of magic missile with a single charge for an hour with 760,000 gp flying on a magic carpet or boots of flying. Flying doesn't necessarily equate to an automatic win. Default is human for a feat like Education or Adaptive Learning or other feat to meet a PRC requirement since I picked them on the fly assuming 25 - 32 point buy.

Swordsage -20 mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

F-20 from a Hidden House mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

F- 6, Templar -1, Divine Crusader -10, X-3

+1LA Hengeyokai (Sparrow), +2 LA Phrenic or Half Fey, +1 LA Mineral Warrior F- 16 mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

F-5, Pious Templar -7, Suel Arcanamach -8 mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

Dragon Magazine +1 LA Darksun human mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

Half celestial Fighter -5, Templar - 10, X- 1 mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

Human Werebear or Were eagle F-4, Holy Liberator or Templar -X mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

P.S. If you don't know what they are they might surprise your Commoner -20 flying with Winged Boots or a Carpet of Flying and plinking at them with a crossbow or a Cl1 Wand of Magic Missiles with what they can do with their actions.

Talya
2008-03-20, 04:59 PM
Just like to point out that the commoner is going to fire a long time if they use a ranged weapon. They'll only hit the fighter on a natural 20...VOP gives a LOT of armor class.

Better to use multiple wands of magic missile...yeah, it will take a while, but at least they'll hit.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-20, 05:27 PM
These are not the most optimized fighters within the OP parameters so I would prefer to see tactics that would "deal" with all of them not plinking with a cross bow or multiple wands of magic missile with a single charge for an hour with 760,000 gp flying on a magic carpet or boots of flying. Flying doesn't necessarily equate to an automatic win. Default is human for a feat like Education or Adaptive Learning or other feat to meet a PRC requirement since I picked them on the fly assuming 25 - 32 point buy.

Swordsage -20 mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

F-20 from a Hidden House mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

F- 6, Templar -1, Divine Crusader -10, X-3

+1LA Hengeyokai (Sparrow), +2 LA Phrenic or Half Fey, +1 LA Mineral Warrior F- 16 mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

F-5, Pious Templar -7, Suel Arcanamach -8 mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

Dragon Magazine +1 LA Darksun human mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

Half celestial Fighter -5, Templar - 10, X- 1 mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

Human Werebear or Were eagle F-4, Holy Liberator or Templar -X mixing up the Hidden Talent feat, Magic in the Blood feat and the Spellfire Wielder feat and some of the Complete Mage spell like ability feats to taste.

P.S. If you don't know what they are they might surprise your Commoner -20 flying with Winged Boots or a Carpet of Flying and plinking at them with a crossbow or a Cl1 Wand of Magic Missiles with what they can do with their actions.

So in other words, your idea of a fighter is someone who casts spells and fires bolts of fire from their hands?

We've got 2 builds with spellcasting classes, not even half, more like 3/4 casting classes. The Phrenic template, which gives Psi-Like Abilities up to 9th level. A full Martial Adept, and not just any one, the most supernatural one.

And every single build involves taking three feats that have nothing to do with fighting?

You do understand the point of the question was to evaluate Vow of Poverty not your obscure feats/templates/half casters.

Zincorium
2008-03-20, 05:30 PM
Just like to point out that the commoner is going to fire a long time if they use a ranged weapon. They'll only hit the fighter on a natural 20...VOP gives a LOT of armor class.

Better to use multiple wands of magic missile...yeah, it will take a while, but at least they'll hit.

You'll need a ring of invisibility- a high level fighter with a sling can still hit you up to 1000 feat away with far shot (the -8 for range isn't going to slow the fighter down). You can't buy wands of magic missile with that kind of range, 300 ft is the most you can buy and that's going to be really freaking expensive, and completely not worth it.

GoC
2008-03-20, 05:36 PM
Just like to point out that the commoner is going to fire a long time if they use a ranged weapon. They'll only hit the fighter on a natural 20...VOP gives a LOT of armor class.
It's plausable that the commoner will get some kind of attacking magic item like a wand of acid arrow or some sort of staff. He's not going to be wading into melee with 10 BAB and d4 hitdie is he?:smallwink:

CASTLEMIKE: Please stay on topic for now.

Chosen_of_Vecna: The point is to find out how much a fighter depends on items. Is he so useless that without them that a commoner could easily defeat him?

Zincorium: Invisibility won't work as VoP gives true seeing.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 05:36 PM
So in other words, your idea of a fighter is someone who casts spells and fires bolts of fire from their hands?

We've got 2 builds with spellcasting classes, not even half, more like 3/4 casting classes. The Phrenic template, which gives Psi-Like Abilities up to 9th level. A full Martial Adept, and not just any one, the most supernatural one.

And every single build involves taking three feats that have nothing to do with fighting?

You do understand the point of the question was to evaluate Vow of Poverty not your obscure feats/templates/half casters.


I have a broader view of what constitues fighting. Professional fighters address their weaknesses.

My Post #16
Just to clarify that does include all source books, PRCs, templates and 760,000 gp suggested wealth by level.

There is always the option of taking the Leadership feat and bringing your Wizard cohort.

OP responding in Post #21
1. Yes, but the commoner can't take any other class excpet commoner.
2. no leadership

Ok, so everyone agrees that the commoner beats the fighter? then what about each of them versus monsters
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

No I don't agree. Not 100% of the time unless the Fighter - 20 is completely limited and minimized in game mechanically with VoP and forbidden to take other PRCs and feats which the game is built around that address the weaknesses conveyed by the VoP.

Should a Commoner -20 using suggested wealth by level built to engage a fighter reliably take down most F-20s without PRCs and a VoP limited to Core/SRD and BoED for the source books when neither can take Leadership and the Commoner has access to Candles of Invocation and Wish? Probably but all that means is magic rocks. It would be easier for a Commoner -20 to take down the Tarrasque by himself than several unknown random fighter types with a VoP with access to various Feats, PRCs and Templates.

Talya
2008-03-20, 05:52 PM
You'll need a ring of invisibility

Exactly what is a ring of invisibility going to do against a fighter with permanent truesight?

Chronos
2008-03-20, 05:57 PM
Ok, so everyone agrees that the commoner beats the fighter? then what about each of them versus monstersAgainst fighterish monsters (in particular, ones without flight), the commoner will use the same tactics as against the fighter himself. Against monsters with flight or long-range abilities, they'll probably both get squished, unless the commoner has some way to reliably UMD.


Exactly what is a ring of invisibility going to do against a fighter with permanent truesight?Plenty, if you stay more than 120 feet away.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 06:01 PM
Castlemike: Remember that the OP said Fighter, not swordsage/obscure race, etc. Make your optimized Fighter 20 with VoP and no LA adjusted race, and people won't complain.

The fighter's best choice would be Raptoran to negate the flight advantage, but the commoner still has too many protective tricks. Again, buying summonable allies does a lot to keep the commoner in the "easy win" bracket.

As for against monsters: the commoner has a higher rate of survival to start, but will eventually run out of one-shot items if these hypothetical monsters don't carry cash. The fighter is likelier to die on a given encounter, but keeps the same percent of success throughout. The commoner has a descending slope of success probability that starts higher that the VoP fighter's; the fighter has a totally horizontal slope.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-20, 06:06 PM
I have a broader view of what constitues fighting. Professional fighters address their weaknesses.

And since all their weaknesses can be overcome by magic Wizard 20 is the best FIghter?

By your logic a Barbarian 1 (Pounce)/Wizard 2/Elf Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8 that casts 9th level spells is a "fighter."

Not to mention Druid 20 or Wizard 20 with Shapechange.

Plus what's to stop the Commoner from "covering his weaknesses" by taking 19 Wizard levels? Or PrCing into Chameleon or Ur-Priest?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 06:10 PM
So this thread is really can a Commoner -20 with access to every option in the game except PRCs, leadership and a cohort beat a minimized F-20 with the VoP not allowed the same options and limited to F-20 Core/SRD and BoED?

puppyavenger
2008-03-20, 06:24 PM
So this thread is really can a Commoner -20 with access to every option in the game except PRCs, leadership and a cohort beat a minimized F-20 with the VoP not allowed the same options and limited to F-20 Core/SRD and BoED?

no just no tamplates or multiclasing

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 06:24 PM
And since all their weaknesses can be overcome by magic Wizard 20 is the best FIghter?

By your logic a Barbarian 1 (Pounce)/Wizard 2/Elf Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8 that casts 9th level spells is a "fighter."

Not to mention Druid 20 or Wizard 20 with Shapechange.

Plus what's to stop the Commoner from "covering his weaknesses" by taking 19 Wizard levels? Or PrCing into Chameleon or Ur-Priest?

Regarding the first point No but probably the best duelist in limited encounters under controlled conditions depending on the spells available to the PC at high levels and less so at lower levels.

That is a gish fighter type and the other two are full casters.

Regarding the last the OP restricted the Commoner to Commoner levels and templates after I queried him regarding the thread. For this thread the Commoner -20 cannot take PRCs or leadership or have a cohort and may use his 760,000 gp as desired.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 06:25 PM
no just no tamplates or multiclasing

PRCing isn't multiclassing. The multiclassing rules do not apply to PRCs. OP allowed the Commoner to template so why not the Fighter?

Reel On, Love
2008-03-20, 06:27 PM
Commoner wins.

He maxes out Sleight of Hand, and plants any small item worth a lot of gold on the Fighter.

The Fighter immediately loses the benefits of VoP and becomes just a shmuck without gear.

FlyMolo
2008-03-20, 07:38 PM
Commoner wins.

He maxes out Sleight of Hand, and plants any small item worth a lot of gold on the Fighter.

The Fighter immediately loses the benefits of VoP and becomes just a shmuck without gear.

I, FlyMolo, approve this message.

Another way to win is get several BoH full of quintessence. It's in the SRD somewhere. Fly over the fighter, dump them out. conceivably, the other way around could work. Dive into the quintessence, and wait for him to die of old age.

puppyavenger
2008-03-20, 07:46 PM
PRCing isn't multiclassing. The multiclassing rules do not apply to PRCs. OP allowed the Commoner to template so why not the Fighter?

realy? half dragopn half fiend Phrenic multiheaded paragon titanic Pseudo-natural commoner 20 of legend.
He said it has to have 20 commoner level, if thats not the limit than commener20/wizard80

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 07:51 PM
Commoner wins.

He maxes out Sleight of Hand, and plants any small item worth a lot of gold on the Fighter.

The Fighter immediately loses the benefits of VoP and becomes just a shmuck without gear.

I agree the Commoner should win at some point in most scenarios.

It would be dependent on the DM if "Planting" an item onto a VoP PC would constitute ownership for the VoP PC and what would constitute use by the VoP PC.

Then the PC standard and consistent rules comes into play would a DM allow this tactic against a VoP PC?

Doubtful most DMs would allow it in a game against the PCs IMO so a clever but dubious tactic since it presumes the Commoner knows the PC is under the VoP and what the restrictions are in game. The Commoner would still need to win initiative to use use Sleight of Hand on the VoP.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 08:03 PM
realy? half dragopn half fiend Phrenic multiheaded paragon titanic Pseudo-natural commoner 20 of legend.
He said it has to have 20 commoner level, if thats not the limit than commener20/wizard80


That is incorrect please reread posts #1 and 21.

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-20, 09:02 PM
Wouldn't simple flight and a Starmantle Cloak win this for the commoner since the exalted bonus is conveyed to the ranged weapon (bow/crossbow/sling), and not to it's ammunition? :smallamused:

GoC
2008-03-20, 09:26 PM
PRCing isn't multiclassing. The multiclassing rules do not apply to PRCs. OP allowed the Commoner to template so why not the Fighter?

What? When did I say that the commoner can have templates? He's a plain old Commoner 20!

EDIT: By #21 I meant that the commoner's ECL is the same as the ECL of human commoner 20.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 10:03 PM
What? When did I say that the commoner can have templates? He's a plain old Commoner 20!

EDIT: By #21 I meant that the commoner's ECL is the same as the ECL of human commoner 20.

Post #21 was perfectly clear regarding ECL20.

To my knowledge I have not posted any Fighter examples with an ECL greater than 20 on this thread as I mostly limited myself to +1 to +4 ECL Templates.

IMO all my fighter examples should be able to be taken down by a Commoner - 20 who can always fall back on Candles of Invocation and Wishes using suggested wealth by level of 760,000 gp, but only if the Commoner doesn't waste lots of time doing things like Flying and Plinking away round after round believing the fighter cannot do anything except be a target with his actions.

Zincorium
2008-03-20, 10:20 PM
CastleMike-

Yes, you've made builds.

Why?

They're not 'fighters' in the sense most people use the term. When you can shoot fire out of your hands, cast spells, and use martial manuevers, you're something a bit different. The intent of the question was, as the OP stated, to determine whether fighters are seriously impeded by VoP as opposed to magic items. The answer is a resounding yes. At best, you can compensate by cheesing the fighter out, but it's still not as good as it would be with WBL.

Your builds' class abilities are dramatically better than vow of poverty, making the difference between WBL and VoP utterly meaningless.

To put it another way- by the rules, or rather, utter lack thereof, you seem to be using to build your characters, druid/planar shepherd would be perfectly reasonable. You're using spellcasting, shapeshifting, and lack of full BAB- there isn't a single category the druid is in that you haven't proposed.

Meanwhile, the opponent, a commoner 20, has NO ADVANTAGES EXCEPT CASH. So there's no basis for claiming that it's unfair- the testing of fairness between VoP and WBL was the only point, and still is the only point.

GoC
2008-03-20, 10:21 PM
Post #21 was perfectly clear regarding ECL20.

To my knowledge I have not posted any Fighter examples with an ECL greater than 20 on this thread as I mostly limited myself to +1 to +4 ECL Templates.
AARGH!
You know what I mean!
I'm pitting something with exactly twenty levels in commoner, no LA or non-commoner hitdie against someone with 20 fighter levels, no LA and no non-fighter hitdie.
Was that sufficiently clear?:smallannoyed:


IMO all my fighter examples should be able to be taken down by a Commoner - 20 who can always fall back on Candles of Invocation and Wishes using suggested wealth by level of 760,000 gp, but only if the Commoner doesn't waste lots of time doing things like Flying and Plinking away round after round believing the fighter cannot do anything except be a target with his actions.
Well I doubt most of the people on these boards would resort to such cheesy tactics as to use a candle of invocation and wish is rather expensive, not the sort of thing you can do every encounter.

EDIT: Sorry for the blowup, I just got really annoyed when you keep saying I'm allowing the commoner templates and PRCs.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-20, 10:25 PM
Post #21 was perfectly clear regarding ECL20.

To my knowledge I have not posted any Fighter examples with an ECL greater than 20 on this thread as I mostly limited myself to +1 to +4 ECL Templates.

IMO all my fighter examples should be able to be taken down by a Commoner - 20 who can always fall back on Candles of Invocation and Wishes using suggested wealth by level of 760,000 gp, but only if the Commoner doesn't waste lots of time doing things like Flying and Plinking away round after round believing the fighter cannot do anything except be a target with his actions.

Yes I know this is D&D. Yes I know D&D makes spellcasters just plain better then Fighters. But we are still testing the item reliance of a Fighter. Not of A Spellcasting Progression, not of a Template that allows spellcasting, and not of a Feat that allows spellcasting. We know those things are good. We really do. That doesn't mean that the Fighter (both concept and class) isn't item reliant. It in fact shows exactly that when every single "Fighter" that stands a chance is a caster, and only stands a chance because of his casting.

Raptoran or Dragon Borns can be real fighters that don't use spellcasting but still at least threaten the Commoner, but A Phrenic Fighter 18 who uses wis 9th level Psilike ability to kill the commoner is no different then a Phrenic Commoner 18. (Unless his 9th level ability requires an attack role, in which case he's a Warrior 18.) We know Phrenic is good. It also doesn't prove anything about Fighter Item reliance.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 10:49 PM
AARGH!
You know what I mean!
I'm pitting something with exactly twenty levels in commoner, no LA or non-commoner hitdie against someone with 20 fighter levels, no LA and no non-fighter hitdie.
Was that sufficiently clear?:smallannoyed:


Well I doubt most of the people on these boards would resort to such cheesy tactics as to use a candle of invocation and wish is rather expensive, not the sort of thing you can do every encounter-

Clearer I should disregard post #21 No Templates and No PRCs with F-20 and neither class can have the Leadership feat or a Cohort.

IMO it is cheesy to keep limiting the options available to the F-20 nerfed by a VoP for a duel and normally unable to fly while leaving the Candles of Invocation, Wish and Flying as unrestricted options to the Commoner - 20 with 760,000 gp.

What source material is the F-20 restricted to? IMO the easiest way to kill the VoP F-20 is to restrict him to a PHB race and Core PHB feats.

Right now I would be favoring something like the +0LA Dragon Magazine Hengeyokai (Sparrow) as the race for a LG F-20. They were originally +1 LA in the Oriental Adventures source book.

GoC
2008-03-20, 10:55 PM
Clearer I should disregard post #21 No Templates and No PRCs with F-20 and neither class can have the Leadership feat or a Cohort.

IMO it is cheesy to keep limiting the options available to the F-20 nerfed by a VoP for a duel and normally unable to fly while leaving the Candles of Invocation, Wish and Flying as unrestricted options to the Commoner - 20 with 760,000 gp.

What source material is the F-20 restricted to? IMO the easiest way to kill the VoP F-20 is to restrict him to a PHB race and Core PHB feats.

Right now I would be favoring something like the +0LA Dragon Magazine Hengeyokai (Sparrow) as the race for a LG F-20. They were originally +1 LA in the Oriental Adventures source book.
Any sources are allowed as long as their found in reasonably well-known splat books (no dragon magazine I'm afraid). "Reasonably well known" is left to your discretion.
I don't think the Candle of Invocation suggestion was serious and I believe I addressed wish in my previous post.

Zincorium
2008-03-20, 11:01 PM
Clearer I should disregard post #21 No Templates and No PRCs with F-20 and neither class can have the Leadership feat or a Cohort.

You're already disregarding it. And if you really think that the commoner is getting templates and PrCs when the fighter isn't... there's no point talking to you. So I'm going to assume that you realize that nobody is giving the commoner a single advantage over the fighter other than the magic items themselves, and thus the fighter deserves nothing in compensation.

If VoP was any good, the fighter would already be pwning the commoner.


IMO it is cheesy to keep limiting the options available to the F-20 nerfed by a VoP for a duel and normally unable to fly while leaving the Candles of Invocation, Wish and Flying as unrestricted options to the Commoner - 20 with 760,000 gp.

It is not 'cheesy'. It. Is. The. Point. Of the exercise.

No one except you is trying to 'even out' the combatants or compensate for some perceived unfairness.

If the fighter, which is a much better class than commoner already, cannot beat one due to the difference between WBL and VoP, the issue is solved.

If that's not what you want to talk about, start a new thread.


What source material is the F-20 restricted to? IMO the easiest way to kill the VoP F-20 is to restrict him to a PHB race and Core PHB feats.

No one has mentioned source restrictions. Nor would it be reasonable to restrict them, since it's already posited that the book of exalted deeds is being used.

Nor is anyone inherently biased and trying to kill the fighter by piling any additional restrictions on.


Right now I would be favoring something like the +0LA Dragon Magazine Hengeyokai (Sparrow) as the race for a LG F-20. They were originally +1 LA in the Oriental Adventures source book.

If they actually have flight, they shouldn't be LA +0. They might be, but it's horrible quality control on Dragon's part. Raptoran really is the best bet from what I can see. Even then, the fight is really, really difficult for the fighter.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-21, 12:03 AM
Are fighters really dependant on their magic items?
Would a 20th level commoner with WBL be more effective than a 20th level VoP fighter?
Assume they fight eachother and various monsters.
They fight in four different sites. A forrest, a city, a dungeon and a flat plane.

Feel free to give the commoner whatever items you would use if you decided to play a 20th level commoner.:smalltongue:

Regarding the first perhaps it should ask:

Are Barbarians, Fighters, Monks and Rogues really dependant on their magic items?

Would a 20th level commoner with WBL be more effective than a 20th level VoP of Barbarian, Fighter, Monk or Rogue?


I started participating in this thread because I thought I might glean a few new or useful combat tactics or better use of an established or new magic item in game.

Not the Commoner -20 flies and plinks at the VoP Fighter until he is dead because he is being denied the ability to acquire flight in game. Never played in that kind of game and hope I never do because I enjoy the games where the PCs are challenged. In most games where flight is needed it is acquired in some form natural ability, template, other party member, magic item or spell.

I don't think the VoP feat is worth 760,000 gp to most PCs in most games. That just makes it a mechanically weak feat in a suggested wealth by level game that could be a lot more fun to play if it was written better.

The impression I have of this thread which may be incorrect is that it appears based around singling out and killing a F-20 via a Commoner-20 using magic to Fly and preventing the VoP F-20 from acquiring flight in game to negate that tactic which somehow makes the VoP feat and the Fighter class bad.

Chronicled
2008-03-21, 12:19 AM
Not the Commoner -20 flies and plinks at the VoP Fighter until he is dead because he is being denied the ability to acquire flight in game. Never played in that kind of game and hope I never do because I enjoy the games where the PCs are challenged. In most games where flight is needed it is acquired in some form natural ability, template, other party member, magic item or spell.

1) That is NOT the only method to deal with the Fighter that was suggested, had you paid any attention to this thread.

2) This thread seems to have been made to determine the shortcomings of VoP, and whether it was worth losing WBL. The general consensus is that VoP is NOT worth taking unless you are a caster.

3) Instead of a general hypothetical discussion, you have attempted to hijack this thread and turn it into an arena battle between a Commoner 20 with WBL, and some obscenely twinked-out meleer with VoP. That's not the point.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-21, 01:18 AM
1) That is NOT the only method to deal with the Fighter that was suggested, had you paid any attention to this thread.

2) This thread seems to have been made to determine the shortcomings of VoP, and whether it was worth losing WBL. The general consensus is that VoP is NOT worth taking unless you are a caster.

3) Instead of a general hypothetical discussion, you have attempted to hijack this thread and turn it into an arena battle between a Commoner 20 with WBL, and some obscenely twinked-out meleer with VoP. That's not the point.

1. That was the general impression I received. I did and thought your post #10 was one of the best with the exception of the Invisibility part since Glitter Dust has a casting range of 100' + 10' a level normall 130' and it didn't state the range between the Commoner and the Fighter was being maintained at 121' to 130'. 5 or 6 posts regarding flight on the first page and a few cheesy using Wish and Candles but perfectly legit according to the OP. As I have posted before in the thread I was hoping for more posts like yours which would be useful in a game.

2. I read the first post and asked for clarification from the OP. That may be the purpose of the thread but it reads like a dueling thread to me since most reasonable options in game I have suggested to address perceived VoP weakness are discounted or disallowed. Everything is open but not Dragon magazine that is to obscure or anything that provides magical like benefits to the PC. Is it a weak feat mechanically compared to SWbL? Yes IMO but it can be a lot easier to play a VoP PC than manage that SWbL since most of the VoP perceived flaws can be addressed or negated by race, PRC, template, feats and spells cast by party members.

3. I am offering another perspective that is not popular. Reasonable hypothetical counters to why I believe some of the tactics are not realistic and would not be effective in most games run by a DM.

IMO what really makes VoP weak in this thread is not allowing the the PC to address those weaknesses via a PRC or Template. Simple little things a player using the VoP would normally have the option to do in a game. Another thing that makes the VoP weak is the Commoner knows one of his encounters is a VoP fighter who can't fly for one of his opponents possibly at all locations just changing terrain.

Chronicled
2008-03-21, 01:27 AM
If you want tactics to use against someone with VoP, I can work on that. I came up with most suggestions in under 10 sec, but I can review the DMG for things that will give a VoP user trouble.

I don't believe this is a dueling thread. Goodness knows we have enough of those around here.

Some of the suggestions haven't been realistic; you're absolutely correct there. If you want, I'll make a realistic, thorough method to take this fighter down. I don't think it's necessary to prove the VoP vs WBL point, but it shouldn't take me very long. Heck, I'll assume that it's a Raptoran/Dragonborn, even.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-21, 01:55 AM
If you want tactics to use against someone with VoP, I can work on that. I came up with most suggestions in under 10 sec, but I can review the DMG for things that will give a VoP user trouble.

Some of the suggestions haven't been realistic; you're absolutely correct there. If you want, I'll make a realistic, thorough method to take this fighter down. I don't think it's necessary to prove the VoP vs WBL point, but it shouldn't take me very long. Heck, I'll assume that it's a Raptoran/Dragonborn, even.



Thanks that would be great. I try to work within the game and thread mechanic limitations. Always happy to learn a new strategy or tactic.

IMO the the lack of flying seems like a glaring weakness for a noncaster VoP PC who has had aeriel encounters without being able to fly in response.

Most games where flight would be an issue would allow the PC to address the issue either via a party member in a group or PRC or race in some groups or soloing so flying tactics would not be an automatic win button IMO. IMO most DMs would not prohibit addressing the perceived weakness and then target it in game.

It's not necessary to prove the point the feat works well enough for Druids and a few other classes and not so well for others. (Maybe a player who doesn't want to track or manage 760,000 gp of wealth)

IMO if the PC can't fly he would probably avoid the encounter perhaps with a feat like Fiendish Legacy from Complete Mage (or a PRC but not for this thread) since the VoP Fighter - 20 has lots of feats.

Funkyodor
2008-03-21, 02:27 AM
Well, what if said fighter takes cross-class Hide and waits till his tweaked Jump check has a chance of success then uses a plain old Net to snag the flying Commoner and yank him to the ground? Once on ground level he's toast. With all the points pumped into UMD the commoners spot shouldn't be so high, and Stat focus will be on CHA and DEX for UMD and ranged attacks. With all the stat bonuses said fighter gets, having a 12 INT isn't crazy. And with all the feats Fighter gets, having Skill Focus Hide or Able Learner (whatever the one is that gives you cross-class skills cheaper) doesn't sound insane.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-21, 06:44 AM
Well, what if said fighter takes cross-class Hide and waits till his tweaked Jump check has a chance of success then uses a plain old Net to snag the flying Commoner and yank him to the ground? Once on ground level he's toast. With all the points pumped into UMD the commoners spot shouldn't be so high, and Stat focus will be on CHA and DEX for UMD and ranged attacks. With all the stat bonuses said fighter gets, having a 12 INT isn't crazy. And with all the feats Fighter gets, having Skill Focus Hide or Able Learner (whatever the one is that gives you cross-class skills cheaper) doesn't sound insane.

That would be great except that:

1) Enhancement bonuses don't apply to skill points, so he'd have to start with a 12, which is less likely.

2) The Fighter can't own a Net.

3) The Commoner is actually capable of using Glitterdust/or a +30 Item of Spot, the Latter or which automatically beats the Fighter.

4) In Fact, why doesn't the Commoner just use something to grant himself concealment, and a +30 Item to Hide with Cross class ranks. Insta win.

GoC
2008-03-21, 11:50 AM
Not the Commoner -20 flies and plinks at the VoP Fighter until he is dead because he is being denied the ability to acquire flight in game. Never played in that kind of game and hope I never do because I enjoy the games where the PCs are challenged. In most games where flight is needed it is acquired in some form natural ability, template, other party member, magic item or spell.

One of the encounters is in a dungeon. Why don't you address that one?

An important fact to note: This isn't about VoP it's about a fighter's dependance on WBL.

bugsysservant
2008-03-21, 01:52 PM
Alright, not going to hash out a full build, but it seems to me, that if you allow all source books, a human mineral warrior would do rather well. Pick up Starspawn, and warped mind, then you have flight, a burrow speed, and several power points to get those all important psionic feats. Give him a spiked chain, improved initiative, and with one power attack flying uber charge, he kills the commoner. If the commoner uses some sort of wall of force, he burrows out, since I don't think most of those go through the earth. I will be the first to admit that you can immediately think of a dozen ways to kill him still without breaking a sweat, but by taking three feats and a +1 LA, he can now take down at least half of the suggested instakills.

Chronicled
2008-03-21, 01:57 PM
Alright, not going to hash out a full build, but it seems to me, that if you allow all source books, a human mineral warrior would do rather well. Pick up Starspawn, and warped mind, then you have flight, a burrow speed, and several power points to get those all important psionic feats. Give him a spiked chain, improved initiative, and with one power attack flying uber charge, he kills the commoner. If the commoner uses some sort of wall of force, he burrows out, since I don't think most of those go through the earth. I will be the first to admit that you can immediately think of a dozen ways to kill him still without breaking a sweat, but by taking three feats and a +1 LA, he can now take down at least half of the suggested instakills.

He can't have a spiked chain, due to VoP. You're also bringing psionics into this, which dodges the "Fighter" part of it. I've no problem with Mineral Warrior, though.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-21, 02:32 PM
One of the encounters is in a dungeon. Why don't you address that one?

An important fact to note: This isn't about VoP it's about a fighter's dependance on WBL.

Edit: I agree with the basic thread premise that a Commoner - 20 equipped with 760,000 gp Magical WBL of choice can build to address most encounters against most classes like the Fighter, Monk or Rogue whose WBL is limited to the fixed effects provided by the VoP particularly if they are not allowed to address the weaker aspects of the VoP via feats, templates and prcs.

I have a few ideals percolating but 760,000 gp is a lot to account for should the initial strategies not pan out as planned along with building a commoner per thread restrictions. I don't care for the well then I have ........ pulling out of the hat because the PC has a lot of wealth that isn't designated.

For the purposes of the thread can the Commoner or Fighter take UA/SRD Bloodlines since they are still taking their full levels in their core class?

Flaw limit for the PCs?

Point buy 25 or 32 pts?

Since this thread isn't about VoP, just a fighter's dependance on WBL does that mean there is no VoP weapon restriction to simple weapons for the VoP fighter for the purposes of the thread in all encounters?

Will the VoP fighter have non magical weapons equivalent to average starting gold for a F-1 (150 gp) without negatng the VoP for the purposes of the thread?

Belt of Battle definitely in the commoner's gear at 12,000 gp.

Probably Boots of Striding and Springing at 5,500 gp

Debating on Boots of the Mountain King Greater at 21,500 gp

Physical attribute enhancing items.

Probably something like Celestial Armor at 12,550 gp so light it can be worn under normal clothing (Sounds like the Commoner shouldn't need the light armor proficiency but not a given might need to spend a feat or choose something else).

bugsysservant
2008-03-21, 06:26 PM
He can't have a spiked chain, due to VoP. You're also bringing psionics into this, which dodges the "Fighter" part of it. I've no problem with Mineral Warrior, though.

I'm pretty sure he can have a spiked chain, it just can't be masterwork. If you take VoP, you're not expected to limit yourself to unarmed strikes, you know. Also, gaining a few powerpoints so you can get a psionic focus is hardly avoiding the rules. And that was the least powerful part of the build. If the fighter 20 needs Deep Impact or whatever to hit, then I don't think he can win regardless.

MeklorIlavator
2008-03-21, 08:23 PM
I'm pretty sure he can have a spiked chain, it just can't be masterwork. If you take VoP, you're not expected to limit yourself to unarmed strikes, you know. Also, gaining a few powerpoints so you can get a psionic focus is hardly avoiding the rules. And that was the least powerful part of the build. If the fighter 20 needs Deep Impact or whatever to hit, then I don't think he can win regardless.

The feat specifically limits one to non-masterwork simple weapons, so I'd say the spiked chain is out of any VoP build.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-21, 09:08 PM
Book of 9 Swords Martial Study and Martial Stance feats. That's how the Fighter can win (not necessarily will, though...).

Specifically, the Fighter wants (in no particular order):
Darkstalker (to hide from nifty abilities the Commoner can get, such as Scent, Blindsense, Tremorsense, or Blindsight).
Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) Swift-action Greater Invisibility until the end of your round. Additionally, it makes Hide a class skill - which he needs to max out. Maybe take a small race, too.
Martial Study (Shadow Stride): Move-action teleport for 50 feet. Quick way to get out of range when retreating.
Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt): Standard-action teleport for 50 feet. This is for when you get caught off-guard (combine with Shadow Stride).
Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance): +2d6 Sneak Attack (great for when you're only getting the one hit in with a sling bullet or similar).
There's probably a few others that will be useful.
Pity he can't take Adaptive Style to recharge them.... oh well.

Basic tactics:
Hit and run, then hide, wait the five minutes to recharge abilities, then rinse and repeat. Goal being to wear the commoner's resources down to nothing.

Greater invisibility ensures that for the one strike, the Commoner is Flat-footed. Assassin's Stance gets extra damage on the one hit (can also replace with something else, like Shadow Garrotte, if you like, for ranged damage, skipping the need to have a sling at all).

Commoner wants to hide forever with a Ring of Invisibility? Okay. But the Fighter can stalk as long as he likes.... as he doesn't have anything that can "run out" for more than a few minutes.

GoC
2008-03-21, 09:14 PM
For the purposes of the thread can the Commoner or Fighter take UA/SRD Bloodlines since they are still taking their full levels in their core class?
Do bloodlines increase ECL? If not then sure.


Flaw limit for the PCs?
No flaws to either. I'm trying to apply K.I.S.S.


Point buy 25 or 32 pts?
I don't think it matters but if it does then 32.


Since this thread isn't about VoP, just a fighter's dependance on WBL does that mean there is no VoP weapon restriction to simple weapons for the VoP fighter for the purposes of the thread in all encounters?
VoP prevents you from using martial weapons? In which case martial and exotic weapons are ok.


Will the VoP fighter have non magical weapons equivalent to average starting gold for a F-1 (150 gp) without negatng the VoP for the purposes of the thread?
Well non-magical equipment worth 150gp shouldn't be too nasty.


Belt of Battle definitely in the commoner's gear at 12,000 gp.

Probably Boots of Striding and Springing at 5,500 gp

Debating on Boots of the Mountain King Greater at 21,500 gp

Physical attribute enhancing items.

Probably something like Celestial Armor at 12,550 gp so light it can be worn under normal clothing (Sounds like the Commoner shouldn't need the light armor proficiency but not a given might need to spend a feat or choose something else).
Almost certainly. There's also going to be curing items and probably some sort of teleporting/flying/airwalking device. Only teleporting will work well in a dungeon though.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-21, 09:16 PM
Nice feat suggestions but the commoner needs to be 120'+ away since the fighter will have True Seeing via VoP.

No Bloodlines do not:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm

Thanks again for clarifying my questions.

I'm currently thinking some kind of +0LA Planetouched (PGtF) with a UA/SRD Major Bloodline for the Commoner since ECL would still be 20.

Depending on the Bloodline chosen it could be beneficial for the Fighter also.

I'd give both of them the Spellfire wielder feat from Magic of Faerun.

Probably go with some kind of variant of the lock down fighter at the wizard's boards.

bugsysservant
2008-03-21, 09:22 PM
The feat specifically limits one to non-masterwork simple weapons, so I'd say the spiked chain is out of any VoP build.

Oh, I had thought it was just any non-masterwork weapon. It doesn't really matter, I just picked spiked chain because its the best two handed reach weapon. Isn't the longspear, or some such, just as good, only limited with a "dead zone"? It doesn't change anything, but the fly speed of starspawn is somewhat limited, so having a reach weapon will probably help even that out.

Flickerdart
2008-03-21, 09:27 PM
Are we limiting it to a Human Fighter or Human Commoner? A Mind Flayer on either side would just Mind Blast the sucker and that would be that.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-21, 09:34 PM
Are we limiting it to a Human Fighter or Human Commoner? A Mind Flayer on either side would just Mind Blast the sucker and that would be that.


I could be mistaken but it is a ECL 20 Commoner with 20 commoner levels and WBL of 760,000 gp challenge against a ECL20 VoP Fighter with 20 fighter levels and no PRCs basically limited to feat selection.

bugsysservant
2008-03-21, 09:36 PM
Are we limiting it to a Human Fighter or Human Commoner? A Mind Flayer on either side would just Mind Blast the sucker and that would be that.

Well, I assume that we're allowing for a few templates and races, but nothing over the top. But then again, that may not be what the OPer intended but these things never end up quite what the OPer intended, hmmm?

Edit: Plus, what are the chances of an exalted mind flayer?

tyckspoon
2008-03-21, 09:38 PM
Edit: Plus, what are the chances of an exalted mind flayer?

Probably about the same as a Succubus Paladin?

bugsysservant
2008-03-21, 09:47 PM
Probably about the same as a Succubus Paladin?

I think I missed something here...

tyckspoon
2008-03-21, 09:50 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a
Eludecia, the infamous Lawful Good (chaotic, evil) Succubus Paladin.

Chronicled
2008-03-21, 11:03 PM
The problem for the fighter trying to wear out the commoner's resources is that the commoner I'm statting out is going to have items with a per day usage, and Boots of Teleportation (among other things). The fighter wants to play hit and run? I can always come back tomorrow.

bugsysservant
2008-03-21, 11:15 PM
The problem for the fighter trying to wear out the commoner's resources is that the commoner I'm statting out is going to have items with a per day usage, and Boots of Teleportation (among other things). The fighter wants to play hit and run? I can always come back tomorrow.

Well, in theory, a hit and run fighter could start using those hits to sunder equipment. A commoner may be able to absorb damage again and again and again, but its a freakin' commoner. I don't know how the hell it got as much lootz as it has, and I sincerely doubt that it will be able to get more. So the commoner will have to be utterly untouchable if that's going to be a viable strategy, and if its utterly untouchable, then why run to begin with?

Chronicled
2008-03-21, 11:36 PM
in theory

That's the kicker.


Also, can we agree on pre-battle prep time? I'd leave it up to the OP, if it's all the same to everyone else.

GoC
2008-03-22, 10:36 AM
That's the kicker.


Also, can we agree on pre-battle prep time? I'd leave it up to the OP, if it's all the same to everyone else.

pre-battle prep? Hmm... 2 days sound alright?

bugsysservant
2008-03-22, 11:24 AM
Wait, are we really having a battle here? That's absurd. No one is doubting that there are dozens of item win buttons, starting in core with candles of invocation and spiraling outward. All that I see here are people saying that with the right race and feat selection, a VoP fighter can be as optimized or just about, as a normal one. But no fighter will ever beat a level twenty commoner that buys up UMD cross class and spends every cent to be as effective as possible, cherry picking items from every splat book ever written. But to say that just because you can beat a fighter with that monstrosity, you can't optimize a fighter without equipment is ludicrous. I honestly don't know what you're trying to prove here.

GoC
2008-03-22, 12:21 PM
Wait, are we really having a battle here?
*shrug*
Some people wanted actual rules for a test encounter. I just gave them.


I honestly don't know what you're trying to prove here.
I think I've said this before. I'm enquiring about whether or not the claim that a fighter's WBL is more dangerous than he is is valid.

Chronicled
2008-03-22, 01:37 PM
2 days? I meant more in the realm of "Ok, you're about to enter combat. Prepare to defend yourself!" Probably A couple minutes at most. Or it could be nothing. To keep it from heavily favoring one side or the other (commoner wants lots of pre-combat time, VoP Fighter wants none), neither Castlemike nor I should decide.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-24, 08:13 AM
I was messing around with the 760,000 gp in gear I was going to give the Commoner - 20 when I realized the Commoner - 20 could simply make a Wish via a Candle of Invocation (Gate in the appropiate Wish granting monster) for a Psychic Reformation into a Beguiler, Sorcerer or Variant Spellcaster - 20 there was no reason to be a Commoner.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-24, 08:37 AM
I'm fairly sure that you can't use Psychic Reformation to change your class.

GoC
2008-03-24, 04:34 PM
2 days? I meant more in the realm of "Ok, you're about to enter combat. Prepare to defend yourself!" Probably A couple minutes at most. Or it could be nothing. To keep it from heavily favoring one side or the other (commoner wants lots of pre-combat time, VoP Fighter wants none), neither Castlemike nor I should decide.

2 rounds sound good?:smallwink:

Jack_Simth
2008-03-24, 04:58 PM
I'm fairly sure that you can't use Psychic Reformation to change your class.Correct. Skills, Feats, and powers (potentially spells, too) known, but not class levels.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-25, 04:57 AM
Wish for PHII retraining.