5 best DnD based pc RPGS

[Jinura]

What would you say is the 5 best DnD based PC rpg's. Just 5 best overall ( Don't include expansions ie)

[Morty]

Hm. The best two are I think Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape: Torment. Baldur's Gate 1 is good as well, but not as good as those two. Icewind Dale 1 and 2 aren't bad, but they become boring quickly. There's also Neverwinter Nights 1, fairly mediocere game redeemed by toolset and NWN2 I didn't play.

[Terraoblivion]

I like the first Icewind Dale more than M0rt does, but it is still a fair deal below Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape: Torment. The first Baldur's Gate is also great. Apart from these four games i haven't had any good experiences with D&D based video games though.

[Om]

1) Planescape: Torment
2) Baldur's Gate I
3) Baldur's Gate II
4) NWN (With expansions and mods)
5)...

The last place could possibly be filled by NWN2 (which I haven't played) but really they're just there to make up the numbers. You could also substitute any old school game from the Gold Box days, which apparently number some classics amongst them

Games that I do not want to see mentioned in this thread are:

Icewind Dale (original or sequel)
Temple of Elemental Evil
Pool of Radiance (recent version)

[Tengu]

Not counting the old RPGs from the eighties and early nineties that barely anyone knows of anymore, aren't there less than 10 games that match these criteria, thus making the thread rather pointless?

[Elliot Kane]

Planescape: Torment is absolutely the best, IMO. Baldur's Gate 2 and 1 follow (In about that order) then Hordes Of The Underdark (Which is a standalone game even though it uses the NWN engine, so I guess it counts) with NWN2 fifth.

PS:T is top by virtue of actually being a ROLE playing game as well as having a terrific story and engaging characters. NWN2 drops points for being set firmly on railway tracks.

[sun_tzu]

Personally, I loved Neverwinter Nights.

[Lord Herman]

I loved NWN, especially the story of the expansions. Yay, Deekin! Apart from that, I haven't played any DnD based cRPGs.

[Terraoblivion]

The first Icewind Dale game was a hack and slash dungeon crawl, however, it was just about the best of the kind ever made. And it had great music that really set the atmosphere of the entire game.

Neverwinter Nights is an eternal stain on Bioware's skill as a developer. The expansions were supposedly significantly better, but i just can't get past the horrible graphics and way too Diablo'ish gameplay.

Also Tengu really has a good point about there being only a few D&D based games that anybody knows these days.

[Jinura]

Seems that everybody thinks NWN1 is good. Guess i will try that out

[Tengu]

NWN games are mostly multiplayer, to be honest. And for fan-made campaigns - for NWN1, the best modules I recommend wholeheartedly are the Penultima and Penultima Rerolled series, by Stefan Gagne of Sailor Nothing fame. A great combination of epic, funny and sometimes very moving.

[Om]

Seems that everybody thinks NWN1 is good. Guess i will try that outHonestly, its simply on my list due to a lack of alternatives. Those games that attempt to copy DnD mechanics are usually fairly poor

[Tengu]

I'd put the single player of NWN1 as mediocre, SoU good and HotU very good, while multiplayer and fan-made modules vary a lot but peak at awesome.

NWN2 is NWN1 with better graphics, more cumbersome interface, and smaller community because it's much harder to use the editor. It had the potential to be awesome, but mostly wasted it and is worse than NWN1 was in its days.

[Elliot Kane]

Seems that everybody thinks NWN1 is good. Guess i will try that out

Personally I loathed it. I consider it one of the worst CRPGs ever. It's an attempt to make Diablo using AD&D rules and it's bad on just about every level as a result.

The modules they did were a major step up in quality (And I only tried those after some major badgering by friends whose taste is usually good) but none of them gets past the major essential flaw in the entire thing: D&D is a party based game. Making a single character game based on D&D is thus not a very smart thing to do.

The modules are at least entertaining, though. I have to give them that. NWN1 is not.



NWN2 is NWN1 with better graphics, more cumbersome interface, and smaller community because it's much harder to use the editor. It had the potential to be awesome, but mostly wasted it and is worse than NWN1 was in its days.

I have to admit, I admire anyone who can make sense of the editor, let alone use it! I gave up...

[Tengu]

Not to repeat myself, but what about playing the game multi-player? It's usually much better that way, although finding a persistent world that will suit your tastes might require some time searching.

And of course, the best DND RPG game is Planescape: Torment. Baldur's Gate 2 is after that, and I wonder how would Bard's Tale do for the humour alone, but I only played the demo.

[Dhavaer]

Personally I loathed it. I consider it one of the worst CRPGs ever. It's an attempt to make Diablo using AD&D rules and it's bad on just about every level as a result.

Neverwinter Nights used 3.0 rules. But yeah, D&D doesn't translate well to real-time.

[Elliot Kane]

Neverwinter Nights used 3.0 rules. But yeah, D&D doesn't translate well to real-time.

It's not the real time that was the problem. That worked fine for PS:T, the Baldur's Gate games and the (Not very good, IMO) Icewind Dale.

The problem is that the game itself is designed for an optimum group size of around six characters with complimentary strengths (Which is why you get six characters in all the Black Isle games). As such, no single character has the range of skills necessary to ensure success on their own.

Using that system to create Diablo-lite is thus a rather inexplicable decision.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Is there no love for NetHack?

[Shikton]

1. Planescape: Torment
2. Baldur's Gate 2
3. Baldur's Gate 1
4. Icewind Dale
5. Icewind Dale 2

NWN = teh sux. Both games. I've played them both single player and online, and I just can't stand them. Never tried Temple of Elemental Evil or Pool of Radiance, but I heard they're utter doodoo from pretty much everyone.

[factotum]

PS:T is top by virtue of actually being a ROLE playing game as well as having a terrific story and engaging characters. NWN2 drops points for being set firmly on railway tracks.

Planescape: Torment achieved its amazing story by pretty much also being set solidly on rail tracks, so I don't quite understand why you're making a distinction. The ending of the game was the same no matter what you did; it's just the conversations you had that varied along the way.

[Attilargh]

What's wrong with Icewind Dale II? I kinda liked it, or at least the parts I managed to play before getting stuck. The graphics are the best I've seen in an Infinity Engine game (read: bloody good), I can understand the rules (three point... five, aren't they?) and while it is mucho hack 'n slash in a linear world, at least the maps are a bit freer than in the first IWD. Personally, I might even rank it on third place after Torment and BG2, followed by BG1 and, um, something.

(And if the answer is "plot", please don't elaborate on it without marking adequate spoilers.)

And what's with no mention of Knights of the Old Republic? It's D&D-based, at least in its ruleset. Sorta. If you define "based" as in "uses the D20 and general terminology from a game based on D&D 3.0".

[Sebastian]

Is there no love for NetHack?

Technically it is not "based" on D&D, only "inspired by".

[Cainen]

Planescape:Torment is #1. There's almost no debating this, really.
Baldur's Gate 2 is #2. Great game that had a blah expansion.
Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer(NOT the original game) is great and takes #3.
Baldur's Gate 1 takes #4. It hasn't aged very well in comparison to the other games.
Neverwinter Nights(as a whole) takes #5. The game's single-player content is pretty much blah, so you want to play it over multiplayer. With a GM. THEN it shines.

IWD2 was a lot of fun and had a beautiful soundtrack, so I enjoyed it. It wasn't the greatest, though. Not even close.

[Dhavaer]

Never tried Temple of Elemental Evil or Pool of Radiance, but I heard they're utter doodoo from pretty much everyone.

Temple of Elemental Evil had a great combat system, but other than that it was pathetic.

[Morty]

What's wrong with Icewind Dale II?

Well, a series of increasingly hard fights where unless you've got a good-aligned cleric in the team you have to rest every two encounters can get tiresome after a while. I'm playing it right now, and while it's fun, it's also getting a bit boring.
ToEE has great fights, but incomprehensible plot and tons of bugs. Pool of Radiance just plain sucks.


I have to admit, I admire anyone who can make sense of the editor, let alone use it! I gave up...

Really? I don't know about NWN2, but in NWN1 the editor is perfectly simple to use, and there are a lot of tools in the internet to help you make the scripts. And it kept NWN1 on my disk far longer than it'd normally stay, because I could play modules and make my own.

[Jinura]

Why does everybody say that Plancescape is so great. BG2 i can understand since i played it, that is realy one of those great games that will never return.

[Jube]

In Order

5) Icewind Dale
4) KoTOR 1
3) KoTOR 2
2) Planescape Torment
1) Baldurs Gate 2

[Attilargh]

Why does everybody say that Plancescape is so great.
Plot. Great characters. Plot. Gorgeous graphics. Plot. Funny humour. Plot. Sigil. Plot. The Planescape setting. Plot. Oh, and did I mention great characters and plot?

[Jube]

Why does everybody say that Plancescape is so great. BG2 i can understand since i played it, that is realy one of those great games that will never return.

Hmm

Planescape's really good if you've played BG1 and BG2.

It's a lot better than BG 1 and not quite as good as BG 2 (After playing 2 BG1 is almost impossible to play. 2 is just so so much better <.<)

It's got a lott'a really inovative ideas, really cool characters and a good story. There's not a lot to dislike about it really.

[Tengu]

Planescape: Torment achieved its amazing story by pretty much also being set solidly on rail tracks, so I don't quite understand why you're making a distinction. The ending of the game was the same no matter what you did; it's just the conversations you had that varied along the way.

Isn't it the case with all good story-driven RPGs? That's why I prefer jRPGs to western ones - in a single-player computer RPG, I prefer great story to freedom.

[Spiryt]

Plot. Great characters. Plot. Gorgeous graphics. Plot. Funny humour. Plot. Sigil. Plot. The Planescape setting. Plot. Oh, and did I mention great characters and plot?

You forgot incredibly awesome vibes, and plot in my opinion. And Deinonara, and music, and plot. And Riddling Skeleton and plot.

[Premier]

Some solid recommendations here, but I gotta repeated the old SSI Gold Box games for added emphasis, which they deserve.

Also, you really shouldn't be limiting yourself to D&D CRPGs, since you're totally missing out on some of the greatest classics of computer gaming at large, like Ultima 4 and 6, or Wizardry 7.

[FujinAkari]

Really? I don't know about NWN2, but in NWN1 the editor is perfectly simple to use, and there are a lot of tools in the internet to help you make the scripts. And it kept NWN1 on my disk far longer than it'd normally stay, because I could play modules and make my own.

NWN2 is in full 3D, and so its editor is exponentially more complex. You have to worry about lighting effects and door placement and wall thickness and... gah.

Suffice to say it is MUCH MORE COMPLICATED than the NWN1 editor... MUCH.

[Cainen]

Why does everybody say that Plancescape is so great. BG2 i can understand since i played it, that is realy one of those great games that will never return.

Let me give a (fairly) brief summary. Planescape:Torment has the best plot execution in a video game that I've seen, and it has one of the best plots in a game. Considering that I've played an extremely large amount of story-based games(most of which were TERRIBLE, since I refuse to judge story-based games' plot on anything but novel standards), I can say this with impunity. It's one of the very few maturely-written games I've played, it has the most writing I've seen in a video game(over a million words!), and its dialogue is top-notch. The characters are interesting, and it utilizes almost everything Planescape can throw at you to make a very interesting and very unique setting. Considering how Planescape itself is one of the most interesting D&D settings ever, especially with a good GM, it lends itself perfectly to a game that gives you a ton of options with regards to dialogue choices. A lot of choices in the game have consequences, good or not; because Planescape is based off of consensus reality, if you lie and say your name is Adahn a lot, a man named Adahn will literally spring into existence. It's not a generic hack-and-slash game, and that's precisely why it's the best video game RPG I've played. The game quite literally gives you a metric ton of ways to play your character, and it probably has the best ways to roleplay a character in a game, ever. Especially evil characters.

(For the record, I prefer playing CG-types.)

It may be 'boring' to you, but if you're amused by hack-and-slash and refuse to acknowledge the kind of talent it takes to put together a truly excellent game everywhere else, I can safely say your opinion only matters because it's preventing more of the latter from existing.


Isn't it the case with all good story-driven RPGs? That's why I prefer jRPGs to western ones - in a single-player computer RPG, I prefer great story to freedom.

I've never played a JRPG with a great story. Considering how I find that entire genre to be full of trash and nearly every combat system involved with it boring, there is literally no reason for me to play around with it, and it's honestly frustrating when people expect me to lower my standards to enjoy a plot that is either childish, pretentious, or a combination of both.

That being said, most WRPGs aren't better. They just have much more potential, and quite a few of the Bioware/Black Isle games show that off.

[Tengu]

Also, you really shouldn't be limiting yourself to D&D CRPGs, since you're totally missing out on some of the greatest classics of computer gaming at large, like Ultima 4 and 6, or Wizardry 7.

Or Betrayal at Krondor.



I've never played a JRPG with a great story. Considering how I find that entire genre to be full of trash and nearly every combat system involved with it boring, there is literally no reason for me to play around with it, and it's honestly frustrating when people expect me to lower my standards to enjoy a plot that is either childish, pretentious, or a combination of both.

That being said, most WRPGs aren't better. They just have much more potential, and quite a few of the Bioware/Black Isle games show that off.

I on the other hand enjoyed most of both jRPGs and western RPGs (from those that weren't simple HNS games) I played - and I do not see anything bad in the standard jRPG combat system, if anything it's better than what you have in Baldur's Gate since all characters can do something more than attack and use items, not just the casters. As for the plot, it seems that you either have played the wrong games or you just refuse to acknowledge the style (anime and anime games are not everyone's cake after all, some people don't like them - and it's an understandable decision, though I don't want to have much in common with these people).

[Cainen]

Or Betrayal at Krondor.

Agreed.


I on the other hand enjoyed most of both jRPGs and western RPGs (from those that weren't simple HNS games) I played - and I do not see anything bad in the standard jRPG combat system, if anything it's better than what you have in Baldur's Gate since all characters can do something more than attack and use items, not just the casters. As for the plot, it seems that you either have played the wrong games or you just refuse to acknowledge the style (anime and anime games are not everyone's cake after all, some people don't like them - and it's an understandable decision, though I don't want to have much in common with these people).

No, I'm pretty sure most JRPG combat systems were pretty much worse off by their own nature. Not only are they extremely tedious, but far more often than not you're genuinely forced to do it over and over and over. And if you try to skip the grinding, many games tend to mistake 'difficulty' with 'time-consuming'. Bumrushing a recent Castlevania game and never switching your weapon isn't difficult, it just takes a lot of time; it took FOUR THOUSAND STRIKES OF MY WEAPON to beat Death on a recent challenge run, and I wasn't hit once. Beating a classic Castlevania is difficult, but the boss fights are almost always shorter while also staying much harder.

I'm pretty sure most JRPGs I've played didn't have much to do in combat besides attacking, healing, buffing, stealing, or using items of some sort.

Furthermore, Baldur's Gate doesn't use 3E rules. Fighters, thieves, and other classes are viable for a MUCH longer time than they are in 3E because casters were far weaker under 2E's rules, especially because fighters got iteratives much earlier. Thieves could certainly do more than attack and use items(traps, anyone?), and fighters shouldn't be expected to do more. Fighters certainly aren't doing anything else in JRPGs, now, are they? High CHA fighters could do quite a bit out of combat, though, so again, your point is moot.

Style doesn't excuse cheesy and/or outright bad writing, anime or not. If you are writing a Mary-Sue character and your fans like it, that does NOT mean that the character isn't a massive failure of a dynamic character. JRPGs in particular abuse cliches to the point where they are a bloody pulp, and I don't appreciate being told that I shouldn't be judging something off of different standards than yours.

[Tengu]

While it's true that non-casters are viable in BG, most of them don't do much apart from auto-attacking, while in most of the jRPGs I played, all characters have special attacks and abilities other than just that.

Random encounters are an issue for many, many people, but I don't see anything wrong with them, as long as the combat system is smooth - they were annoying in FF games before 5 or in Earthbound, but in FF6 or Chrono Trigger? Don't think so.

It's true that jRPGs are generally easy, however this might be the case due to the player's experience - I breezed through most of Icewind Dale 2, which is considered a very hard game, while my friend who has little experience in RPGs got massacred in some Chrono Trigger boss battles.

Most of the well-known jRPGs are filled with cliches because they made these cliches... not to mention that there's nothing wrong in a cliche, if it's well-executed. I fail to see how the plot of FF6, FF7 or Xenogears is pretentious or childish.

[Cainen]

While it's true that non-casters are viable in BG, most of them don't do much apart from auto-attacking, while in most of the jRPGs I played, all characters have special attacks and abilities other than just that.

And they're still combat-focused. What's your point?


Random encounters are an issue for many, many people, but I don't see anything wrong with them, as long as the combat system is smooth - they were annoying in FF games before 5 or in Earthbound, but in FF6 or Chrono Trigger? Don't think so.

It is a MASSIVE problem, especially in those two games. The combat isn't fun, it's time consuming, and doesn't add anything to the game other than ticks to the clock.

And Earthbound never had random encounters.


It's true that jRPGs are generally easy, however this might be the case due to the player's experience - I breezed through most of Icewind Dale 2, which is considered a very hard game, while my friend who has little experience in RPGs got massacred in some Chrono Trigger boss battles.

Easy is not the problem. Easier games would be a boon, especially if combat was resolved faster because of it.

Tedious is the problem. The only ways you can really make an RPG boss battle hard is by making it longer and roughly evenly matched, so it WILL degenerate into trying to run you out of resources first.


Most of the well-known jRPGs are filled with cliches because they made these cliches... not to mention that there's nothing wrong in a cliche, if it's well-executed. I fail to see how the plot of FF6, FF7 or Xenogears is pretentious or childish.

What.

You've got to be kidding me. FF6 is not particularly either, but it doesn't have a strong plot either; it's sorely outclassed by most below-average novels. It neither has the pitfalls of most of the games that came after it and it didn't randomly use names from mythology without a tenuous connection, at best, to the source material. Now, in comparison, FF7 has a mentally ill lead character, a skinny life support system for gigantic breasts for a romantic interest, a Mr. T-style simpleton, another generic female love interest who happens to be the last of an ancient race who also happens to be sought after by the current Big Bad, a talking dog who is a scientific experiment, and the BBEG is an idiot with mommy issues.

You CAN NOT feasibly tell me that is not childish.

Xenogears didn't have half of the pretension its successors did, but it certainly did. I'll give you a hint: deliberately designing a character around psychology is a huge red flag.

[Triaxx]

Temple of Elemental Evil was an awesome game. Lots of people had problems playing it, but I never had a problem running it. And once you install Co8, it's even more interesting.

I'd have to rank them like this:

BG2
BG1
ToEE
Icewind Dale
Icewind Dale 2

[Tengu]

And they're still combat-focused. What's your point?


My point is that it's much more fun to have a character who has several viable options of attacking the enemy at all times than one that can only move around, hit enemies with his sword, and drink a potion.




It is a MASSIVE problem, especially in those two games. The combat isn't fun, it's time consuming, and doesn't add anything to the game other than ticks to the clock.

And Earthbound never had random encounters.

Easy is not the problem. Easier games would be a boon, especially if combat was resolved faster because of it.

Tedious is the problem. The only ways you can really make an RPG boss battle hard is by making it longer and roughly evenly matched, so it WILL degenerate into trying to run you out of resources first.


Then the only explanation I can figure out for why do people find random encounters so tedious and I don't is that they have a much shorter attention span. It doesn't explain why don't they think combat in non-japanese RPGs is so tedious too, though.

And yes, Earthbound handles encounters in a different way (so does Chrono Trigger) - but the actual combat there is actually very tedious, since it takes a lot of time to do anything and there aren't any animations. At least you can look at the trippy backgrounds.




What.

You've got to be kidding me. FF6 is not particularly either, but it doesn't have a strong plot either; it's sorely outclassed by most below-average novels. It neither has the pitfalls of most of the games that came after it and it didn't randomly use names from mythology without a tenuous connection, at best, to the source material. Now, in comparison, FF7 has a mentally ill lead character, a skinny life support system for gigantic breasts for a romantic interest, a Mr. T-style simpleton, another generic female love interest who happens to be the last of an ancient race who also happens to be sought after by the current Big Bad, a talking dog who is a scientific experiment, and the BBEG is an idiot with mommy issues.

You CAN NOT feasibly tell me that is not childish.

Xenogears didn't have half of the pretension its successors did, but it certainly did. I'll give you a hint: deliberately designing a character around psychology is a huge red flag.

Well duh, if you reduce well-made characters with various personality traits into a single line description each, of course they are going to sound childish! I start to think you just didn't pay attention to the plot or didn't want to understand it.

Your statements about FF6 and Xenogears are little more than concealed "I didn't like it". About the psychology part... Metal Gear Solid and Evangelion disagree. Are they shallow and pretentious too?

But this gets offtopic. I get that you don't like jRPGs, you get that I do. There's no way we're going to understand why does the other guy has such bad tastes.

[Logic]

1: Dark Queen of Krynn
2: Baldur's Gate 2
3: Neverwinter Nights
4: Baldur's Gate
5: Pool of Radiance (Gold Box Version) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Box)

[Cainen]

Then the only explanation I can figure out for why do people find random encounters so tedious and I don't is that they have a much shorter attention span.

No. No. You do not pull that argument out against me. I have an extremely long attention span. That does NOT mean that repeatedly subjecting me to the same thing over a thousand times and having it last for at least fifteen seconds each time is not tedious when it was never fun in the first place.


Well duh, if you reduce well-made characters with various personality traits into a single line description each, of course they are going to sound childish! I start to think you just didn't pay attention to the plot or didn't want to understand it.

No, I understood it in full and could summarize it with little problem, even though I haven't played the game in several years and the fact that I won't play the game again.

Absolutely none of FFVII's characters bordered on interesting, and attaching drama to Cloud the way they did is just moronic.

I think YOU were the one who didn't pay attention to how meh it actually was. I have absolutely no nostalgia for FFVII, and I certainly am not letting nonexistant nostalgia cloud my judgment.


Your statements about FF6 and Xenogears are little more than concealed "I didn't like it". About the psychology part... Metal Gear Solid and Evangelion disagree. Are they shallow and pretentious too?

YES. YES. MY GOD YES. While MGS at least carries itself with some dignity, Evangelion is one of the most ridiculously pretentious things I've ever seen in my life.

[valadil]

I tried Icewind Dale and both Neverwinter Nights. Got bored of all three without getting anywhere near the end. NWN seemed like a decent game engine, but the campaign that came with it kinda sucked. I hear the community built campaigns are good though.

Just because nobody mentioned it I'd like to throw in a vote for D&D Online. It's a much better game than it gets credit for. A lot of its flak comes from MMO addicts who are looking for their next fix. It's just a little too group quest based for the sort of player who wants to solo grind to the level cap and then do nothing but raid. There is a one week free trial if you're interested.

[Tengu]

No. No. You do not pull that argument out against me. I have an extremely long attention span. That does NOT mean that repeatedly subjecting me to the same thing over a thousand times and having it last for at least fifteen seconds each time is not tedious when it was never fun in the first place.


Wouldn't that describe the combat system of Infinity Engine-based games as well? Apart from some of the tougher boss fights it's all "click orc, wait till he dies, click another orc, cast a spell with your mage from time to time".


No, I understood it in full and could summarize it with little problem, even though I haven't played the game in several years and the fact that I won't play the game again.

Absolutely none of FFVII's characters bordered on interesting, and attaching drama to Cloud the way they did is just moronic.

I think YOU were the one who didn't pay attention to how meh it actually was. I have absolutely no nostalgia for FFVII, and I certainly am not letting nonexistant nostalgia cloud my judgment.


I think it's much easier to miss depth where it's present than to see it where it's absent. Unless you're a literature teacher, but I'm not one.
I played FF7 after I played and finished both BG2+ToB and Torment. Nostalgia has nothing to do with my perceiving of this game either.


YES. YES. MY GOD YES. While MGS at least carries itself with some dignity, Evangelion is one of the most ridiculously pretentious things I've ever seen in my life.

Is it just me or is everything that has some depth, but is short of an absolute, flawless masterpiece, pretentious to you?

Anyway, as I said - offtopic, and I'm trying to cut on thread sidetracking. If you want to continue the discussion, let's do so in another thread, but it will probably be just an argument for the sake or arguing alone as neither of us is going to persuade each other.

[Jinura]

Okay im gonna buy NWN1. I played the second and i sort of liked it ( except for Overpowered clerics and the stupid camera) I think im gonna loan Planescape from a friend and see what this is all about...

[Tengu]

You won't be disappointed in Planescape: Torment, unless you do not have a soul, but prepare for a lot of dialogue. No, more than that.

[Thanatos 51-50]

You won't be disappointed in Planescape: Torment, unless you do not have a soul, but prepare for a lot of dialogue. No, more than that.

So, um... what system is it for?

[Douglas]

Okay im gonna buy NWN1. I played the second and i sort of liked it ( except for Overpowered clerics and the stupid camera)
Have you tried playing it with the latest patches recently? They revamped the camera system for the expansion, and included all of the game engine improvements, camera included, in the free patches for the original.

[Terraoblivion]

Torment is a fairly old, that is fairly old as in eight to ten years, PC game so anybody who isn't about to donate their PC to charity should be able to play it without any problems. At least with fulfilling the system requirements, it might be tricky to get it to run on your computer if you have Vista.

Also Cainen i want to know if it was absolutely necessary to go off-topic to insult the taste of somebody else? Especially given that novels come in two flavours in my experience, fluff intended purely for entertainment that is very much on the level of video games on one hand and utterly, utterly pretentious artsy writings on the other hand. Ironically many of the classics belong in the first category and have just showed they have more to them than the surface seems to indicate. And of course there are books that manage to be good enough not to be either. It is not because i feel that my own tastes have been insulted a whole lot, just because i feel it is fairly arrogant not to mention pretentious to off-hand dismiss what Tengu likes based on your own idea of books being the superior form of entertainment and art.

Anyway to return to topic then it seems like there is almost a concensus of filling the list up with the first four Infinity Engine games and then Neverwinter Nights. A concensus that would probably different if it wasn't for the age of the gold box games, well i think there are also some named for other precious metals.

And finally a small thing someone said. Bioware made both Baldur's Gate games as well as Neverwinter Nights. Black Isle made both Fallout games as well as Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment. People have recently started attributing all of them to Black Isle and it kinda annoys me given how much i love the old Bioware games.

[Thanatos 51-50]

<SNIPTIY DOO-DA> it might be tricky to get it to run on your computer if you have Vista.<MOAR SNIPPING!>

...I have Vista. It came with the computer. What horrid luck.

[Terraoblivion]

I don't know if it has compatibility problems with Vista. I just know that quite a few older games have compatibility problems with newer versions of Windows and that Vista in particular is known for compatibility problems with games not designed for it. So there is a very real risk of compatibility problems. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about computers and getting things work on them can help you more than i can.

[Archonic Energy]

And for fan-made campaigns - for NWN1, the best modules I recommend wholeheartedly are the Penultima and Penultima Rerolled series,

i can wholeheartedly agree with this statement

[Cainen]

Also Cainen i want to know if it was absolutely necessary to go off-topic to insult the taste of somebody else?

Well, there was honestly no reason to mention JRPGs in a topic about D&D games in the first place, especially since the post he was responding to when he did mention them didn't seem to grasp that the fact that events and their resolutions DID differ makes the story malleable, though not wholly.


It is not because i feel that my own tastes have been insulted a whole lot, just because i feel it is fairly arrogant not to mention pretentious to off-hand dismiss what Tengu likes based on your own idea of books being the superior form of entertainment and art.

See, that's a pretty easy to refute statement. That's not what I said. Books are almost always better at the writing aspect due to their nature, and if I'm playing a story-based game, why would I bother? I never said they were superior. I said they were better when it comes to the writing aspect. And considering how I have no love for JRPG combat(or RPG combat in general), again, what reason do I have to play a JRPG instead of a book? It's like the difference between a bad D&D dungeon crawl and a good Shadowrun stealth run. One has a bunch of combat and things I don't want to do making up the vast majority(if not all!) of the game, and the other will hopefully have no combat at all, instead focusing on something else entirely.

I haven't played Shadowrun in years, and I've played tons of bad dungeon crawls. I don't like d20 mechanics unless I get to seriously messing around with it, and SR3's mechanics with literally three to four mods is my favorite system. When people don't stop pressing something on you when you hate it but have no alternative, you WILL get testy about it.


I don't know if it has compatibility problems with Vista. I just know that quite a few older games have compatibility problems with newer versions of Windows and that Vista in particular is known for compatibility problems with games not designed for it. So there is a very real risk of compatibility problems. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about computers and getting things work on them can help you more than i can.

Set to XP compatability mode(or 98, if it's possible; haven't messed around with Vista much beyond what I initially did with it), run as administrator. Older Windows programs have this nasty habit of requiring admin rights to do much of anything, so UAC fails horribly by design. It's not really UAC's fault as much as it is the terrible design of user accounts in older Windows versions. Not to say that UAC isn't flawed; sudo/kdesu is superior, since it's less intrusive.

Other than that, I don't think you should have many glitches other than the basic graphics glitches which were also in XP. I do suggest using the unofficial patches, if only for the unfinished quests that were added.

[Elliot Kane]

Planescape: Torment achieved its amazing story by pretty much also being set solidly on rail tracks, so I don't quite understand why you're making a distinction. The ending of the game was the same no matter what you did; it's just the conversations you had that varied along the way.

Not quite true. There are two possible endings and a number of different paths to either. The game is not linear either, especially at the start when you're pretty much free to explore Sigil and do what you want.

You also have the option of being good or evil or neither - and it's your choices within the game that will determine which you are - and the game is NOT geared so that you can theoretically-but-not-really play evil as so many are.

Personally, I would not regard that as linear.



Really? I don't know about NWN2, but in NWN1 the editor is perfectly simple to use, and there are a lot of tools in the internet to help you make the scripts. And it kept NWN1 on my disk far longer than it'd normally stay, because I could play modules and make my own.

Looks like it's time to dig out NWN1 again if I fancy dungeon building. Thanks, MOrt :)

NWN2 is pretty impenetrable - at least to someone like me who has very little programming experience.

***

I haven't played many JRPGs, but the ones I have played I would honestly describe as interactive films rather than RPGs. For something to be an RPG, you as the player have to be able to make meaningful choices that will affect your character's story and the plot as a whole. I've never seen a JRPG where either happened - though again, my experience is limited.

And yes, I'm well aware that most Western CRPGs aren't 'true' RPGs either :)

One thing I will say, though: Final Fantasy 12 has got what is probably the best combat system of any CRPG of any type I've ever played. It's not adapted tabletop rules, but a system truly designed for use by a video game. It's got plenty of flaws in story and plot and it's certainly not an RPG, but darn it has a great system! :)

[Flickerdart]

For fun-ness, I've found NWN and NWN2 are at the upper end of the curve. For D&D-ism, Temple of Elemental Evil is as close as you will ever get, though it's hard as hell. Baldur's Gate's complicated AD&D 2.0 rules never made sense to me.

If you're willing to stretch your definition of D&D, Knights of the Old Republic (and KotOR II) both use a modified variant of the d20 system and are excellent games.

But, what is this Planescape: Torment you people speak of?

[Cainen]

Baldur's Gate's complicated AD&D 2.0 rules never made sense to me.

AD&D is not complicated. At all. THAC0 is BAB, but in reverse. AC counts down. I don't see how you can make sense of 3E but find 2E's rules to be hard to learn.


But, what is this Planescape: Torment you people speak of?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape:Torment

[Spiryt]

But, what is this Planescape: Torment you people speak of?

Probably most awesome video game ever. At least from those I played.

Play it. You will do many things, but certainly you won't regret.

[Tengu]

Planescape: Torment is, simply put, the best single-player computer RPG made so far, combining the best elements of both western and japanese RPGs - there is only one thing where it could improve, and that's the game's lenght. It's hard to get (although in Poland it was released in a popular "old games for little money" series so there's no problem in getting it here), but if you find it, there's no point not to grab it and run away, weeping tears of joy.

[Elliot Kane]

PS:T is absolutely the best CRPG ever, IMO - and by a vast distance. Nothing else comes even remotely close.

[Flickerdart]

From what I understand, this means I'll have to learn the obscure AD&D system, where everybody gets spells and Call Lightning doesn't work indoors, huh.

[Cainen]

Not everybody gets spells. Where the hell are you getting your information from?

[Morty]

From what I understand, this means I'll have to learn the obscure AD&D system, where everybody gets spells and Call Lightning doesn't work indoors, huh.

:smallconfused: Not everyone in AD&D gets spells. I've no idea where you're getting it from. And anyway, AD&D rules in P:T are simplified and combat is secondary anyway, so that won't be a problem. Finally, AD&D rules are easy to get a grasp on anyway.

[Jack_Banzai]

1. Pool of Radiance (Gold Box)
2. Azure Bonds
3. Secret of the Silver Blades
4. Death Knights of Krynn
5. Champions of Krynn

[Om]

Planescape: Torment is, simply put, the best single-player computer RPG made so far, combining the best elements of both western and japanese RPGsHaven't we been through this before? PS:T does not contain "JRPG elements"... it has a plot and story. Simple as. These are not somehow alien to the PC

[Tengu]

It has very unique characters that each have an original model and each, apart from TNO, fight with one type of weapon only. Many of them possess unique special abilities. That's very jRPG-like.

It's a moving game, which is also very jRPG-like: western games work on your emotions much less often.

The authors listed Final Fantasy games among the sources from which they got inspiration for Torment - it cannot be denied that this game would be different, and probably worse, without this inspiration. Hence, it contains jRPG elements.

[Elliot Kane]

It has very unique characters that each have an original model and each, apart from TNO, fight with one type of weapon only. Many of them possess unique special abilities. That's very jRPG-like.

It's a moving game, which is also very jRPG-like: western games work on your emotions much less often.

The authors listed Final Fantasy games among the sources from which they got inspiration for Torment - it cannot be denied that this game would be different, and probably worse, without this inspiration. Hence, it contains jRPG elements.

Sorry, Tengu, but there's nothing at all in PS:T that doesn't owe it's genesis to tabletop RPGs and D&D in particular. Gary Gygax and his friends invented/created the entire genre, and it's JRPGs that are derived from them, not the reverse.

This is not to say that the Japanese have not added their own unique spin to those games - of course they have. But still...

If the PS:T designers found inspiration by playing a wide variety of other console/PC RPGs I would not be at all surprised, but despite having completed PS:T a dozen times or more (Yes, I really like it that much) I have found nothing in PS:T I would not expect to find in a proper tabletop RPG. One of the main reasons I like it that much is because it's the closest to the true tabletop experience I've found.

Any JRPG influence there might be is so minimal as to escape my notice entirely. Sorry...

[Flickerdart]

Not everybody gets spells. Where the hell are you getting your information from?

It was my impression that in Baldur's Gate every character had a slew of spells? Anyways, I'll give Planescape a shot if I ever see it.

[Om]

It has very unique characters that each have an original model and each, apart from TNO, fight with one type of weapon only. Many of them possess unique special abilities. That's very jRPG-likeOriginal characters... see every adventure game ever made
Special abilities... see every RPG ever made
NPCs with one type of weapon... pre-3e DnD had a little thing called "weapon proficiencies" and most RPGs based on those rules came with NPCs that had a preference for certain weapons


It's a moving game, which is also very jRPG-like: western games work on your emotions much less oftenAh yes... I'd forgotten that Western society was populated only by emotionless robots capable of interacting via binary before the Japanese went and invented emotions


The authors listed Final Fantasy games among the sources from which they got inspiration for Torment - it cannot be denied that this game would be different, and probably worse, without this inspirationSource? Because otherwise I'm going to go ahead and deny it. The PC has had a countless number of games with tight plots and excellent scripting (which sums up the entire adventure genre) and the literary aspects of the game are obvious. Indeed I know that Roger Zelazny (http://gamebanshee.com/interviews/pstrevisitedavellone1.php) was certainly an influential example of the latter

(Note that in the above link Avellone makes no mention of JRPGs when questioned about influences)

Again, I'm fairly sure that I've said this before but story and plot are not alien to Western culture or computer games. Nor does Japan enjoy a monopoly of games that heavily feature these. Teenage boys that look like girls and carry giant swords... now that's an undeniably unique characteristic of JRPGs :smallwink:

[Terraoblivion]

Tengu's point isn't really as farfetched as you make it seem, though i do think that he might exaggerate somewhat. None of the characters had abilities that were summed up to a single class or even to a single class with a few extras. Instead everyone had completely and utterly unique abilities that are in no way tied to the races or classes of second edition AD&D, but solely to the individual character. The equipment for the party members you recruited was also a lot more similar to the way it has been handled in a JRPG than either any version of D&D or most western RPGs before it. Need i remind you that Dakon litterally couldn't let go of his Zerth sword or that Annah would always wield her khatars?

Basically the way the gameplay and the abilities was subsumed under the narrative focus of the game had many reminiscences to JRPGs. It could also be compared to adventure games, but that would be a great deal farther of a jump in genre and style of game than saying that it has a variety of similarities to JRPGs.

[Jube]

From what I understand, this means I'll have to learn the obscure AD&D system, where everybody gets spells and Call Lightning doesn't work indoors, huh.

This's amusing for me 'cause BG2 was my first introduction to DnD and thus it's really wierd going into 3.0 and 3.5 type settings (NWN and such).

"Wait wait... You don't choose a class and then level it up? You take a level of a class every level? WHAT THE ****!?" <- Mind blown.

I can't quite understand the people claiming PS:T was better than BG:2 (I thought the endings to 2 and the Villain were far far better. Minsc is easy as amusing as Morte and the system is less limiting, plus the party interactions in 2 were fan-****ing-tastic) but they're both goddamn fantastic games.

Just chipping in to say that in regards to the party nature vs single nature of NWN. BG was obviously designed with parties in mind but it does allow for single player groups to work and since you get more experiance (And thus level up quicker) certain single player classes have clocked the game before. It's hard obviously and since I LOVED the party interactions not really needed but hey.

Oh and fighters and Rogues don't become just auto-attack. They're comparable in damage to the casters the whole way through, then when you get into the Expansion they gain a bunch'a new abilities and attacks.

Rogues for example can use spell scrolls.
Fighters Whirlwind is ****ing INSANE powerfull
And Spike trap is one of if not the most powerfull ability in the game. If you're smart.

[jamroar]

Tengu's point isn't really as farfetched as you make it seem, though i do think that he might exaggerate somewhat. None of the characters had abilities that were summed up to a single class or even to a single class with a few extras. Instead everyone had completely and utterly unique abilities that are in no way tied to the races or classes of second edition AD&D, but solely to the individual character. The equipment for the party members you recruited was also a lot more similar to the way it has been handled in a JRPG than either any version of D&D or most western RPGs before it. Need i remind you that Dakon litterally couldn't let go of his Zerth sword or that Annah would always wield her khatars?


Also, the hilariously over the top cut scenes when the summons spells you get in the late game are cast should be a dead giveaway to its Final Fantasy influences.

[Cainen]

This's amusing for me 'cause BG2 was my first introduction to DnD and thus it's really wierd going into 3.0 and 3.5 type settings (NWN and such).

I was introduced by BG1, though I learned the actual system pretty shortly afterwards. Wasn't that much of a shock once I learned how it worked, since I also played Shadowrun 2 around the same time and already had problems with 2E's class system.


I can't quite understand the people claiming PS:T was better than BG:2 (I thought the endings to 2 and the Villain were far far better. Minsc is easy as amusing as Morte and the system is less limiting, plus the party interactions in 2 were fan-****ing-tastic) but they're both goddamn fantastic games.

...

What.

While the ending to PS:T is pretty slipshod if you don't pay attention and the villain is really more of an antagonist rather than an evil guy, PS:T's party interactions are much better than BG2's. The system is LESS limiting because you aren't constrained to one class/your dual-class the whole time, and are free to change class as you will. And the depth of interaction in PS:T makes BG2 shamed. Combat being weaker is irrelevant, since, again, you can quite easily avoid 99% of the game's fights with words.

Don't get me wrong, I love BG2. It's the best of its kind.

It just can't hold a candle to the best RPG ever.


Oh and fighters and Rogues don't become just auto-attack. They're comparable in damage to the casters the whole way through, then when you get into the Expansion they gain a bunch'a new abilities and attacks.

Yes. 2E had WAY better caster balance, mostly because spells screwed with their initiative(which was rerolled each round), they didn't have a Concentration check(1 HP damage would stop their casting), and fighters/rogues were far more powerful than their 3E counterparts, ESPECIALLY because their abilities were unique and mostly unimpable by casters.[/QUOTE]

[Jube]

I was introduced by BG1, though I learned the actual system pretty shortly afterwards. Wasn't that much of a shock once I learned how it worked, since I also played Shadowrun 2 around the same time and already had problems with 2E's class system.

Ah I just miss parts of it. A lott'a nostalgia.




...

What.

While the ending to PS:T is pretty slipshod if you don't pay attention and the villain is really more of an antagonist rather than an evil guy, PS:T's party interactions are much better than BG2's. The system is LESS limiting because you aren't constrained to one class/your dual-class the whole time, and are free to change class as you will. And the depth of interaction in PS:T makes BG2 shamed. Combat being weaker is irrelevant, since, again, you can quite easily avoid 99% of the game's fights with words.

Don't get me wrong, I love BG2. It's the best of its kind.

It just can't hold a candle to the best RPG ever.

Well I guess I'm just gonna have to disagree /shrug.

Irenicus in BG2 was one'a the best villains I've ever seen in a Video game. Hell I'd probably say he is the best. He was arrogant, evil and ****ing smart. When I was first playing through the game I absolutely detested him, the idea of getting revenge on him for what he did... It's the sign of a well designed Villain when you can't stop playing the game because he's inspired such emotions on you. (Mellisan is a little less so but damn if I didn't wanna rub that traiterous bitch's face into the dirt. Solar speaking crap to her when I was done amused me greatly <.< >.>)

Don't wanna put any spoilers in here but the "Final Boss" of Planescape just never did anything of the sort for me. I loved that there were other options to defeating him than just fighting, but well. I loved the idea of what he was, I just don't think he holds a candle against Irenicus in sheer goddamn desire to beat him/face him/such. He was just kind'a there as a final hurdle, the end of the story, so your character could get Himself back (And then have that ending, it wasn't horrible but c'mon. They could'a done a little better).

I can't understand why you feel PS had better party interactions though? They never really went anywhere. I mean I liked them but it wasn't anything huge. You never find out what (Damn I've forgotten her name) the Succubus chick's diary holds, or so on for example. You don't have Jan stealing from Minsc and Minsc try gut the little guy, nor have Aerie try flirt with you and Jaheria or Viconia tear her to shreds (Or Aerie try insult Viconia/Jaheria when they try flirt with you <.<)


Hell and Morte actually annoyed me. I mean, I loved the guy. I thought he was a fantastic character. But all through the game they had this big plot twist going with him, this grand turn coming. I was anticipating it and anticipating it and then BAM! The twist was that there was no twist. Everything is as it appears.... God I remember that pissing me off. Completely threw me outt'a the story.

I don't quite remember how the class system worked, I do remember you could change on the fly. But weren't you always more powerfull sticking with one class and levelling it up? Gah, been too long. Either way you had only 3 Choices and you were pretty much expected to be a Wizard. Int Wis and Char were far more powerfull than the other stats out of Combat and Wizards were stupid powerfull in combat.

It wasn't really overpowered or anything, but if you played a fighter type without 16/18 Wis and 16/18 Int you missed a lot of good Dialogue and a good ending. (I think you may have been able to use Cha for Int in the ending but it's been a long long while).

I loved PS. What it did it did wonderfully. But it doesn't hold a candle to BG2 for me.



Yes. 2E had WAY better caster balance, mostly because spells screwed with their initiative(which was rerolled each round), they didn't have a Concentration check(1 HP damage would stop their casting), and fighters/rogues were far more powerful than their 3E counterparts, ESPECIALLY because their abilities were unique and mostly unimpable by casters.

Srsly. I still mostly played caster classes 'cause of more things you could do and well, the things you could do were more fun. But being an Assasin and getting a DoT Poison on a caster. Ahh good times.

[Flickerdart]

Thanks for spoiling the plot twist for me. Really appreciated.

[Jube]

Thanks for spoiling the plot twist for me. Really appreciated.

Hmm I thought I was being vague enough. Wrapped it in spoiler tags anyhow, sorry.

[Cainen]

I'm not disagreeing with you about Irenicus being a better villain. I think Sarevok was really the better one simply because of how manipulative he was, but BG2 was definitely the better game and Irenicus had a lot more opportunity to show off how much of a bastard he really was.

The party interactions... well, did you ever actually talk with Dak'Kon and solve the puzzle of the Circle of Zerthimon? NONE of BG2's NPCs have that sort of depth in their interactions, and it directly rewards you with XP, spells, and a lot of backstory on illithids and the githzerai/githyanki. Morte, Fall-From-Grace, Annah, and Nordom all had very interesting interactions, especially Nordom's very Modron-ish observations on Fall-From-Grace's effects on nearby males.

There's a lot more depth to them. You just have to actively look for it, since banters are rare.

[Jube]

I'm not disagreeing with you about Irenicus being a better villain. I think Sarevok was really the better one simply because of how manipulative he was, but BG2 was definitely the better game and Irenicus had a lot more opportunity to show off how much of a bastard he really was.

The party interactions... well, did you ever actually talk with Dak'Kon and solve the puzzle of the Circle of Zerthimon? NONE of BG2's NPCs have that sort of depth in their interactions, and it directly rewards you with XP, spells, and a lot of backstory on illithids and the githzerai/githyanki. Morte, Fall-From-Grace, Annah, and Nordom all had very interesting interactions, especially Nordom's very Modron-ish observations on Fall-From-Grace's effects on nearby males.

There's a lot more depth to them. You just have to actively look for it, since banters are rare.

The Dak'Kon one I really liked. It's one of my favourite parts of the game (Sadly it comes back to "If you don't have 18Int + 18Wis you can't do it!" actually it might'a needed more than 18 Int for the last part? I don't remember). It's just a shame I had to play through a second time to get more than 1/2 way through the thing...

Their backgrounds were fantastic and I do appreciate that but compare with


Jaheria where being with you leads her to betray her friends/allies. Where even being with you, a being of personified evil is a choice about what's right vs What's easy.

Then at the culmination of the Harper fights where she's reconcilled her choices and firm she's chosen the right path. You get a bunch'a XP.

Same deal with Viconia where being with you makes her re-decide who she wants to be. To change what she wants in life, moving from CE to CN.

Hell even Aerie and Haer'dalis. Either they build a Romance together or you fight with him for her. or Aerie and Minsc where he takes her as his witch and regains some of his hold on Sanity (And going insane if she dies >.>). Mazzy and that Ranger whos name I forget same deal.

Character growth through the story with rather detailed backgrounds (Hugely in the case of Viconia) as opposed to Mainly static characters with very detailed backgrounds (Especially Dak'Kon)


That's not to say I didn't love the characters in PST. 'Cause I did, whoever was doing character designs in those days was phenomenal, both games did it incredibly.

It's a shame they don't seem to make them like that anymore.

[Jube]

Sigh: Double Post.

[Cainen]

How much attention did you pay to the Circle? There's a LOT that's interesting about it.

The person who built it was a previous incarnation of TNO, and at least two of the circles were faked by TNO. Dak'Kon still believes in them even if you point this out, and it adds a lot of character to him. Also, a previous TNO was the person who gave Dak'Kon the circle; to learn a lot about this, make Dak'Kon translate Fell's dialogue and point out when he's lying. You can force him to tell you most of this.

[factotum]

Not quite true. There are two possible endings and a number of different paths to either. The game is not linear either, especially at the start when you're pretty much free to explore Sigil and do what you want.


I completed the game twice, once as a nice huggy-bunny sort and once as the most evil **** that ever lived, and I didn't notice any difference in the endings at all:


You get to go to Hell, pick up a four-bladed axe, and start fighting in the eternal Blood War. My route to reach that ending was slightly different (with the first character I simply persuaded the bad guy to re-join with me, whereas I had to kill him the second time), but the ending itself was the same.


What is this "other ending" you're talking about?

[Cainen]

I completed the game twice, once as a nice huggy-bunny sort and once as the most evil **** that ever lived, and I didn't notice any difference in the endings at all:


You get to go to Hell, pick up a four-bladed axe, and start fighting in the eternal Blood War. My route to reach that ending was slightly different (with the first character I simply persuaded the bad guy to re-join with me, whereas I had to kill him the second time), but the ending itself was the same.


What is this "other ending" you're talking about?

That's TNO's fate. It's SUPPOSED to happen. He can't stop it, and in the end he accepts that he deserved it. Do you know what his immortality did, and who those shades chasing you in the game were? Or what they were? Had TNO been unendingly good, he would've been even MORE damned because of what his immortality meant.

The difference is what happens with TTO, and merging with him results in you resurrecting your party members.

[Jube]

How much attention did you pay to the Circle? There's a LOT that's interesting about it.

The person who built it was a previous incarnation of TNO, and at least two of the circles were faked by TNO. Dak'Kon still believes in them even if you point this out, and it adds a lot of character to him. Also, a previous TNO was the person who gave Dak'Kon the circle; to learn a lot about this, make Dak'Kon translate Fell's dialogue and point out when he's lying. You can force him to tell you most of this.

Yeah, like I said I did all that. I didn't remember the exact details but yeah the fact that it's not quite true and that one of the past Incarnations gave him it I kind'a remembered.

Either way you find out a lot about Dak'Kon but he doesn't really change. Well, perhaps a little. He's definatly the most interesting character in anycase, but still BG2's has far more Growth/Change from the characters even if not as much backstory (A Study into Jaheria's beliefs and values; how far she'll push them for what's right to the point of betraying her comrades. Viconia repenting and changing who she wants to be (Hell look at Viconia's good ending. It's insanely different from what she started like) Imoen from BG1->BG2, Minsc getting more crazy. Amonen failing his test for Paladinhood etc etc

Still though

I've recently played BG 2 and I've been thinking about playing PS:T again, all this talk of it's making me wanna revisit the old game. Wonder if I can get a copy from somewhere still...

[Jinura]

Just noticed i had might and ´magic 6 and 8 hidden away ( dunno if it's the 6. one, the mandate of heaven thing) Can remember those are DnD based ( in a way) Anyone recommend any of those?

[Tengu]

They are not DND-based. M&M 6 is a good dungeon crawl game with lots of map travelling and hack'n'slash - it might be too shallow for some people and didn't age well graphically, but worth checking out as a classic if you ask me. M&M 8 is... worse.

[Jinura]

They do use the dice system for damage

[Tengu]

Just like many other non-DND games do.

[factotum]

They are not DND-based. M&M 6 is a good dungeon crawl game with lots of map travelling and hack'n'slash - it might be too shallow for some people and didn't age well graphically, but worth checking out as a classic if you ask me. M&M 8 is... worse.

MM7 was probably the best of that little series...it had a better character system than MM6 and didn't dumb down the plot quite as badly as MM8 did. However, not even remotely D&D based, that much is clear.

[Tengu]

Not to mention that 7 introduced Arcomage! This card game, although simple, is almost as enjoyable as the actual game.

[Blayze]

What is this "other ending" you're talking about?

You can become the new Silent King if you do things "right". You can also get killed by the Lady, and I think Ignus might be able to kill you permanently as well.


Not to mention that 7 introduced Arcomage!

Arcomage pretty much sold me on 7. It's the reason why I keep replaying it every so often.

[Archonic Energy]

PS:T is absolutely the best computer game ever, IMO - and by a vast distance. Nothing else comes even remotely close.

fixed that for you...

[Narmoth]

So, kids: ever heard of a game called Birthright?
It combined the strategy aspect of risk (you rule a land and can / should conquer the rest) with the character development in AD&D (you could go on quests and such with a party)
The fun part was that these two aspects were combined. You went on an adventure with your mage, learned some new spells and then fielded him onthe battlefield.
Now, the battles weren't really AD&D, as the adventuring was, just like the game Heretic, based on the DOOM engine, which made some copulating issues with area spells like fireball.

I think I would list it on top together with Planescape

[Elliot Kane]

fixed that for you...

LOL! Close to true, too. PS:T is certainly up there amongst the best ever computer games, but my other favourites are too different from it to be directly comparable. So I stick with saying it's the best CRPG ever. Keeps things simple :)

[Terraoblivion]

The sheer insanity of the setting of Might and Magic 6 is quite worth it though. Specifically the insanity of the person who chose what pictures to use for the various minor NPCs. I mean in the same house you can find an Indian guy with a turban, a cross-eyed scullery maiden and a guy in platearmor bleeding from his forehead and the last fellow is a carpenter not a warrior. Even though it is technically speaking something bad, it just gave a rather special atmosphere to the game for me.

[Jinura]

Just noticed it was the 7th and not the 8th i had.. Is the ´7th or 6th better.. Going a little of topic i know

[Tengu]

So, kids: ever heard of a game called Birthright?


Heard - yes, played - no. 1995 is the borderline year between old and new games for me.


The sheer insanity of the setting of Might and Magic 6 is quite worth it though. Specifically the insanity of the person who chose what pictures to use for the various minor NPCs. I mean in the same house you can find an Indian guy with a turban, a cross-eyed scullery maiden and a guy in platearmor bleeding from his forehead and the last fellow is a carpenter not a warrior. Even though it is technically speaking something bad, it just gave a rather special atmosphere to the game for me.

Thank you for reminding of the those precious and hilarious memories. Barrels of liquids that permanently improve your stats standing in towns and enemies walking among friendly civilians (or inside royal castles), with both parties not giving a damn about the other one are also elements that cement the game's weird atmosphere.


Just noticed it was the 7th and not the 8th i had.. Is the ´7th or 6th better.. Going a little of topic i know

Both are good. You might want to play 6 first.

[Pronounceable]

Torment is the best RPG ever made. BG2 is second best, with Fallout close behind (which doesn't count here). A top5 would be:
Torment
BG2
BG1
Birthright
IWD



So, kids: ever heard of a game called Birthright?


Yep, I loved that one. Played a whole lot. Probably the only DnD strategy ever made. Even managed to win a few times. Elven archers FTW! Why it's so obscure I have no idea.

There's a whole lot of badmouthing for NWN, and NWN2 had around twelve million patches. Which the patcher application insisted on doing one by one. So I dumped it without playing to the end of tutorial.

IWD is a Diablo wannabe and is only there because I haven't played any of those old SSI games.

[Hermit]

Yep, I loved that one. Played a whole lot. Probably the only DnD strategy ever made. Even managed to win a few times. Elven archers FTW! Why it's so obscure I have no idea.


Prvoided you're willing to accept a loose defintion of strategy there was that GBA remake of Eye of the Beholder. The original of which was epic, as was the sequal, but the GBA version was poor.

[Cainen]

Birthright may be one of the few strictly D&D strategy games, but you can't deny that Master of Magic was so heavily D&D influenced that you might as well have considered it one.

[endoperez]

Birthright may be one of the few strictly D&D strategy games, but you can't deny that Master of Magic was so heavily D&D influenced that you might as well have considered it one.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/stronghold
Stronghold, the DOS strategy game, was very heavily influenced by D&D, and probably used some of the rules. You build guilds (for fighters, mages, dwarves, elves, halflings etc), and then your troops level up as you upgrade the guild and send them to fight various monsters.

I'm surprised no one likes the old Dark Sun rpgs. They're the only thing I know of Athas, but they definitely got me interested. Running elves, Thri-Kreen, all those weird non-metal weapons...


Also, there are MANY more D&D-inspired games than you seem to think. Just take Mobygames' list, for example:
http://www.mobygames.com/game-group/ddadd-licensees/offset,0/so,4d/

The first page mostly lists the big names most often mentioned in this thread (PS:T, BG, NWN, IWD), but the second page is more interesting.

[Fri]

Well, my personal favourites are:
1.Planescape Torment.
2.Baldur Gate. THE FIRST ONE. for some reason, I always like the first one better. Maybe just because I prefer playing it from the first level. And 5-6th level is my sweet spot on DnD.
3.Baldur Gate 2 and Icewind Dale 2, tied. I like Icewind Dale 2. I played it as a turn based strategy game. And I love to make my party and invent the story for them. One of them had such epic backstory and intra party relationship and banter that I only exist inside my head :D. I still fondly remember that party, And I even Invented a campaign/campaign setting based on it.
5. Dunno...

[Jinura]

Thanks for your opinion everyone

[Trazoi]

The only D&D games I remember playing are the Bioware/Black Isle ones, except maybe some really old ones from the eighties that won't make the list. If you're looking for ones to play which one you'll enjoy depends a bit on your playing tastes.

Limiting it to just D&D RPGs, my list would go like this:

Planescape Torment: it's an RPG you really need to play once. It's very plot heavy with more text than you can shake a stick at, but it's brilliant. Everyone seems to have covered the finer details of this though. It's not very combat based though, so if you prefer that over characterisation and plot then it mightn't be your cup of tea. I'd rank this as my favourite RPG from a single play through, even if honestly I've played some of the others more.
Baldur's Gate II: More of an epic than Planescape, BG2 is a mix of the characterisation and plot of Planescape Torment and the combat focus of Icewind Dale. Very good, especially if you add the expansion pack to finish the saga and allow you to reach near godly levels of power.
Neverwinter Nights: I'm probably in the minority in that I enjoyed Neverwinter Nights single player. It doesn't have nearly as involved a plot as Planescape Torment or Baldur's Gate, but I liked the emphasis on a single character (I hate micromanaging a party of six, although three to four can be fun). It's also the only one on the list I found fun in multiplayer. On its own it probably isn't quite as involved as others on this list, but if you add in the player made modules it's a lot of fun.
Icewind Dale II: This is the more combat oriented RPG series from Black Isle. It's fun if you treat it more as a dungeon romp than a deep plot (although it's not too bad). Runs on 3rd edition rather than 2nd (liuke Baldur's Gate and Planescape Torment). Admittedly though I haven't finished this one, as I keep getting distracted about halfway through. My main gripe is that I don't like organising six characters in combat, which is the main point of Icewind Dale II. I've done fairly well with a party of four that I found more fun to manage, but the auto levelling system for the enemies makes this a bit annoying.
Baldur's Gate (original): I'd put this close to Icewind Dale. Frankly I'd consider this part of the whole Baldur's Gate saga. It's been a while since I've played it though (my brother owns this one; I own the sequel). My main problem I had was that with a party of six you hardly gain in power at all: I think you get to about level 5. Not so much an issue if you're role-playing, but in a computer RPG leveling is one of few important milestones you can aim for.
Icewind Dale: This goes over your top 5 list, but it's still a good game: much like a cross between Icewind Dale II in feel, but with the engine of Baldur's Gate (original).

[blackout]

1: Neverwinter Nights: FIRST DnD RPG on the computer I ever played, and it really was more or less my introduction to DnD altogether.
2: Planescape Torment: Yeah, this needs no explanation whatsoever.
3: Baldur's Gate: Awesome game.
4: Baldur's Gate II: Again, le awesome.
5: Icewind Dale: Only played it once, but it was alright. Not the best out there, though.

[toysailor]

Planescape:Torment is epic in terms of plot, character designs and setting. The amount of depth in the storyline is astonishing. It was a one-way ticket to hours of fun and excitement for me after waking up in a morgue. I would love to see another game made in the spirit of this game.

The Baldur's Gate series is another good choice. Character growth is awesome - if you play all the way from the first game, you'll feel extremely satisfied when your 1st lvl noobie grows stronger and wiser till s/he's a power to be reckoned with in the Realms. Baldur's Gate also boasts of a strong NPC cast (Minsc and Boo stand ready!).

For one reason or other, I didn't manage to finish the Neverwinter Nights games (even though I have all of them ><;). They are relatively fun but somewhat underwhelming for me after all the hype you hear about them.

Icewind Dale is a decent hack-and-slash series. If you are the kick-in-the-door kind of player, Icewind Dale is for you.

The Temple of Elemental Evil is rather disappointing. Bug-ridden and too short. No replay value whatsoever.

I guess thats about it for D&D CRPGs. Unless you want to dig up super old games like Blood & Magic or Eye of the Beholder - those were cutting edge back in the early 90s.

[Triaxx]

ToEE has no replay value? So you can only play with one party? It's entirely possible to sneak past all but a handful of encounters.

[Flickerdart]

ToEE has a cookie recipe in the manual. THAT has replay value. mmmm....replay value....

Also, it has reverse replay value, in that even the opening story is different depending on party alignment. And that one time I had my Paladin do the drinking contest because she had a CON of 18...priceless.

[Driderman]

1. Planescape: Torment; It just doesn't get better than that.

2. Baldurs Gate II; up there, but not quite as good as Torment.

3. Neverwinter Nights II; Much better official campaign than it's predecessor.

4. Neverwinter Nights I; Mainly for the online-play, the only campaign that wasn't utter crap was Hordes Of The Underdark

5. Birthright; Hasn't aged too well, is very easy once you get the hang of it and the dungeoneering is rather silly. Still, I reinstall it from time to time, if only to take the most pathetic nation possible and conquer the world

[factotum]

Planescape:Torment is epic in terms of plot, character designs and setting. The amount of depth in the storyline is astonishing. It was a one-way ticket to hours of fun and excitement for me after waking up in a morgue. I would love to see another game made in the spirit of this game.


Can't see it happening unless WotC finally decide to do an updated version of Planescape, and that's not going to happen with 3rd edition now...Lord only knows if it'll be considered for 4th Edition.

[Om]

Can't see it happening unless WotC finally decide to do an updated version of Planescape, and that's not going to happen with 3rd edition now...Lord only knows if it'll be considered for 4th Edition.Planescape has, by and large, been updated to 3.5E by the fans at planewalker.com. I've no idea who owns the licence though

[Jube]

Can't see it happening unless WotC finally decide to do an updated version of Planescape, and that's not going to happen with 3rd edition now...Lord only knows if it'll be considered for 4th Edition.

Well the problem with it will be that if you ask anyone here if PS:T or BG:II were fantastic games they'll practically beat you over the head with resounding calls of "YES!"

Yet I know myself of all my friends I've told about the game maybe 1's actually enjoyed it. All that character growth and all that depth means a LOT of text. For me, fantastic intricate world and characters I can believe. Not to mention random humour or such. For most people? SKIP SKIP SKIP SKIP "GOD THERE'S SO MUCH TEXT! Urgh, what do I do now? **** this"

Least in my experiance.

Plus if you were to remake it you'd need all that text again but completely voice acted rather than just kind'a 1/3 of it Voice acted (So moar money needed). You'd need Sprawling CGI and impressive graphics and all kinds'a fancy do dads (All of which means you can't mod it in as significant a way, some'a the best parts of BGII are what the Mod community's come up with. It's very DnD with everyone making the story theirs).

So it'd cost a lot.
And not appeal to a whole lott'a people.
Hell look at Mass Effect, every single review I've read complains there's too much text <.<

[Tengu]

Because most people are idiots with the attention span of a kitten on crack. RPGs are not for them, if you ask me.

[Terraoblivion]

I might have been lucky or just know weird people, but the only times i hear anybody complain about the amount of text in a game is when they think there is too little. Of course what is too much and what is enough depends on the quality of the writing, the quality of the font, whether you need to spend a lot of time to wait for it to finish writing the text (I'm looking at you Japanese developers) and several other factors, but that doesn't change the fact that text in and of itself is usually a good thing in games.

[MMad]

Or Betrayal at Krondor.

Hear hear, awesome game that. Great gameplay for its time, some of which would still be innovative, and bloody awesome writing.

It's a shame it's practically unplayable nowadays though, the technology certainly hasn't aged well. I loved the game and tried to replay it a while back, but I just couldn't stand the graphics and the interface. This from a NetHack fan.. :)

[Morty]

Plus if you were to remake it you'd need all that text again but completely voice acted rather than just kind'a 1/3 of it Voice acted (So moar money needed). You'd need Sprawling CGI and impressive graphics and all kinds'a fancy do dads (All of which means you can't mod it in as significant a way, some'a the best parts of BGII are what the Mod community's come up with. It's very DnD with everyone making the story theirs).

So it'd cost a lot.
And not appeal to a whole lott'a people.
Hell look at Mass Effect, every single review I've read complains there's too much text <.<

Which is why there won't be another game like P:T and why RPGs are an almost dead genre nowadays. If Torment or BG2 were released today, people would be complaining about too much text or that you can't swim and jump.

[Cainen]

RPGs are not a dead genre. They're far from it, at that.

They just haven't produced anything good in a very long time. The most recent good RPG I played was from-surprise-Obsidian, and that was NWN2's expansion; no surprise that this came from PS:T's devs, though it's not even close to the quality of that game.

Again, JRPGs won't produce what I want. At all. So even looking at them is stupid, and it's insulting that these are popular when they're outdone so badly by many other games.

WRPGs are in a rut, no thanks to Bethesda and Bioware's mediocre recent games.

The only developer I have faith in at this point is Obsidian, and that's merely because they're basically Black Isle reformed. Unfortunately, there won't be another Planescape:Torment because of how badly that game bombed.

[Morty]

RPGs are not a dead genre. They're far from it, at that.

They just haven't produced anything good in a very long time. The most recent good RPG I played was from-surprise-Obsidian, and that was NWN2's expansion; no surprise that this came from PS:T's devs, though it's not even close to the quality of that game.


Which is why I said "almost" and "nowadays". RPGs are still alive, but recent games of that genre has been mediocere with few exceptions(Witcher, for example and Mass Effect from what I hear) and there weren't many of them.

[Tengu]

Again, JRPGs won't produce what I want. At all. So even looking at them is stupid, and it's insulting that these are popular when they're outdone so badly by many other games.


Newsflash - just because someone doesn't share your (quite elitistic, if you ask me) tastes, doesn't mean they are stupid. If you think that people looking at things you don't like is insulting, then you probably have a lot of anger in your life as you feel insulted constantly.

Also, try having a more open mind. I don't like sport or racing games, but I acknowledge the existence of good games in these genres, instead of saying "all sport games are crap and if you play them you're a retard whose sole existence insults my refined sense of good taste".

Also, another new RPG that came out is The Witcher. I haven't played it a lot but it's definitely worth a try, although Polish players will probably like it a lot more as it's based on books by a very good and popular Polish fantasy author.

[Elliot Kane]

I think the Witcher is superb, I must admit. Be a lot better when the new version comes out, though, so I'd wait for that right now if I were you :)

It's not D&D based, but it does use the Aurora engine - the Neverwinter Nights engine - and makes a far better game from it. go figure :)

[Jinura]

yes i must admit that The witcher is one of the best games i've ever played ( also quite mature you know the cards... Cards..) But i like it alot. Well might be a little weird but what about we change this topic from DnD based RPGS to just plain RPGs?

[Dhavaer]

(Witcher, for example and Mass Effect from what I hear)

As I'm near to finishing my third playthrough, I feel qualified to say that yes, Mass Effect is awesome. Although the amount of FemShep/Garrus fanfiction out there (approx. 80% of it) makes me really, really worry about the fandom.

[Cainen]

Newsflash - just because someone doesn't share your (quite elitistic, if you ask me) tastes, doesn't mean they are stupid. If you think that people looking at things you don't like is insulting, then you probably have a lot of anger in your life as you feel insulted constantly

Hold on, that's not what I said. I said it was stupid for ME to look at them, since they're not producing what I want. It's annoying when they start flooding the market with no qualities I like in them and games that are actually brilliant don't show up at all. I don't care if you like them, but they are quite actively annoying me.

I have plenty of reasons to be angry about that, since I can apply the same thing to EVERYTHING ELSE. d20? Hate the system, and it has the vast majority of the market. It makes up the vast majority of my games, since if I didn't play it I would have precisely one game left(and that one's running on something that's d20 but worse!). Shadowrun 4? It ruined EVERYTHING I liked about Shadowrun 3. Guess which one is more popular? Forgotten Realms is one of the worst settings I've ever had to deal with; the only reason I would ever consider it tolerable is because BG2 used it without relying on the cliches typical of it. Planescape and Dark Sun were two of my favorite settings, but oh wait, which ones never got official followups and which one is all BUT the official D&D setting?

FFVII, one of the most annoying games I've had the displeasure of playing? Its sales overshadowed PS:T's by the millions, and it has a million fanboys. Starcraft? Hated the game, and people wouldn't shut up about it for years after its release. Total Annihilation, my favorite game? A speck in comparison to Starcraft, though I could express why it has much more potential as a strategy game than SC quite easily. Bioshock was a watered down System Shock 2 that would've been far better had they stuck with SS2's design. Oblivion was just bad unless you modded it, however pretty the game was when it came out.

When these things are constantly happening to you, please tell me, because then you might have some perspective on the matter.

If I wanted more difficult games, why would I play easy games, let alone want to let people play easy games? This is me we're talking about, not everyone else. Castlevania was great before it was so easy that a drooling monkey could finish it without a single death. Now it's mediocre to decent at best.

[black_Lizzard]

Very slightly OT (not a DnD RPG). Am I the only person here who thinks Fallout 2 is just about the best "open" RPG ever? "Open" meaning you can do everything at your own pace in whatever order you like.

I don't like ranking games. I love all of them. Torment, BG, BG 2, IWD, IWD2, NWN, NWN 2.
Torment has the best plot.
BG 2 is probably my over-all favorite

ToEE had a really good combat system, but the plot wasn't so good and there were alot of bugs. And i dont mean to insult, but I have to agree: FF7 had a very repetitive combat system.

Even though it's mostly a strategy, what'd everyone think of Dragonshard?

[black_Lizzard]

Starcraft? Hated the game, and people wouldn't shut up about it for years after its release. Total Annihilation, my favorite game? A speck in comparison to Starcraft, though I could express why it has much more potential as a strategy game than SC quite easily.

Starcraft wasn't the best strategy game, but it had the best campaign; the best plot.

It was also elegantly simple. The 3 completely different yet similar races gave it variety too.
Its map editor was probably the easiest map editor to use, and the Use Map Settings games of Battle Net gave it a TON of replay-ability value.

[Terraoblivion]

Fallout 2 was great but i disliked some of the shuffling of the flavor from the first one, however. Especially the ghost in The Den annoyed me, ghosts and other fantasy stuff has nothing to do in Fallout in my opinion. The game also suffered under a weak plot, even if the local subplots were often rather good. It was never plot that Fallout survived on, it was atmosphere, freedom and humor. Fallout 2 just had less of the first and the third than the first one had, at least in my opinion.

[Cainen]

I'd argue that Homeworld's campaign beats Starcraft's into the ground and then some, but Homeworld had some serious interface issues that made that point moot; HW didn't feel natural at all. Even HW2's modifications didn't make it control any better, honestly, and the pacing of the game is glacial. It takes a truly slow game to make me say something like that, since I play TBS games too.

Fallout 2 is a lot better than its competition, though. Morrowind and Oblivion are dry, lifeless, and lacking in atmosphere in comparison, and there are only a few true 'do what you want' games. That being said, F2 had the worst startup sequence of any game I've ever played, and considering how Irenicus' dungeon causes me actual physical pain to play through again that says a lot.

[Morty]

Yep, both Fallouts are great, but the second installment is better in my opinion. The plots in the games were about equal, but Fallout 2 was just plain richer in options, NPCs and overall everything, and had several improvements over F1, like better handling of the followers.

[black_Lizzard]

Fallout 2 was great but i disliked some of the shuffling of the flavor from the first one, however. Especially the ghost in The Den annoyed me, ghosts and other fantasy stuff has nothing to do in Fallout in my opinion. The game also suffered under a weak plot, even if the local subplots were often rather good. It was never plot that Fallout survived on, it was atmosphere, freedom and humor. Fallout 2 just had less of the first and the third than the first one had, at least in my opinion.

One of the most annoying Fallout arguments (to me) is whether certain things fit in the Fallout world. The thing is it's not constrained by any genre, the beauty is they can do whatever the heck they feel like. (hence the legion of easter eggs such as monty python).
The thing that sold me on Fallout 2 opposed to the others is the freedom. I didn't like having a set time to find the water chip in the first one. Also, the forced plot in Fallout 2 was almost nil. The only thing that's "forced" is the ending, and you can even do that in multiple ways. F1 forced having to kill the master, in F2 you didn't even have to kill him yourself, you could get the security bots to.
Loved how the game was combat oriented if you wanted it to be, but you could get by with no combat skills, and that "speech" was probably the most useful skill in the game.
Then again, I haven't played F1 nearly as much. Some annoying bugs with F1 make F2 much more playable anyway.

Btw, at the end of F1 when the overseer is giving his banishment exposition to you, there's some place where you can engage in combat mode and kill him. have to do it in one round, but the graphics for it are awesome.

[Terraoblivion]

You can talk the master into commiting suicide actually, i did it once.

Also the reason the ghost annoys me is because it is a regular feature of the game not an easter egg. The easter eggs contains all sorts of crazy things, the ghost just seems like a random thing to drop into a game that mixes Mad Max and 50s science fiction for flavor. It is not a major thing it just irks me a bit, so does the presence of forests in the second though it makes sense given the amount of time after the war and the fact that you play in an area more verdant to this day than the location of the first one was. Also bottle caps rule as a currency.

[Elliot Kane]

Very slightly OT (not a DnD RPG).
Even though it's mostly a strategy, what'd everyone think of Dragonshard?

Poorly designed, far too easy, and with nothing original or interesting about it in any way. At least half the buildings are utterly useless and you'll never build them, and the number and type of units you CAN build is far too restricted.

Trades mercilessly on the D&D name but has zero quality. I thoroughly recommend not bothering with it under any circumstances.

[black_Lizzard]

You can talk the master into commiting suicide actually, i did it once.

Also the reason the ghost annoys me is because it is a regular feature of the game not an easter egg. The easter eggs contains all sorts of crazy things, the ghost just seems like a random thing to drop into a game that mixes Mad Max and 50s science fiction for flavor. It is not a major thing it just irks me a bit, so does the presence of forests in the second though it makes sense given the amount of time after the war and the fact that you play in an area more verdant to this day than the location of the first one was. Also bottle caps rule as a currency.

Really? lol i should try that sometime, just for the heck of it, but stupid Fallout and F2 don't seem to work on my computer (and yes I've tried Win 95 compatability mode)
Ghosts aren't exclusively fantasy either. In some people's-a lot of people's for that matter-opinions they are real.

[Tengu]

Hold on, that's not what I said. I said it was stupid for ME to look at them, since they're not producing what I want. It's annoying when they start flooding the market with no qualities I like in them and games that are actually brilliant don't show up at all. I don't care if you like them, but they are quite actively annoying me.


You should state it more clearly then, as your post really sounded as if you were talking for everyone, not just yourself. Not to mention that just because something is less popular, it doesn't mean there's nobody out there but you who likes it - you just have to look. On these very forums there are people who like the games you do, from what you've written. Unless it annoys you that they also like games that you don't.


Very slightly OT (not a DnD RPG). Am I the only person here who thinks Fallout 2 is just about the best "open" RPG ever? "Open" meaning you can do everything at your own pace in whatever order you like.


If Planescape: Torment doesn't count as an open RPG then yes, Fallout 2 is the best from this category. It's an improvement in almost everything over Fallout 1 - almost, because since the world started rebuilding, it does have a slightly less post-apocalyptic feel to it. Only slightly, though.

[DeathQuaker]

What would you say is the 5 best DnD based PC rpg's. Just 5 best overall ( Don't include expansions ie)

Staying out of arguments and responding to the OP:

It's actually hard to say this "Best overall" without expansions, because for some of the games, the expansions, moddability and other features of the games really help them stand out. (If you want to skip my explanation why, where I list the OC-only list.)

For example, Neverwinter Nights -- just the original OC and unpatched toolset? That was pretty mediocre, honestly. Ain't a bad game, but so much out there was better. BUT... NWN with expansions... and premium modules... and toolset that worked... the countless, countless community made modifications and modules... that is a fantastic suite of software right there. But you don't buy NWN for the original campaign. You buy it precisely for everything else connected to it.

Neverwinter Nights 2 is of course going in a similar direction... and since it's toolset is that much more sophisticated (and oddly, I found it easier to use than the original, but I appear to be in a minority), even more amazing modules are coming out of it, officially made and community made alike. And, BTW, while NWN2 definitely beats out NWN1 in terms of quality of OC, NWN2's expansion pack is reason alone to get the game. Mask of the Betrayer was just amazing--and I played and finished it before they patched it....

So, my inclusive list of best D&D based games, including surrounding material, would be

1. Planescape: Torment (no extras to this, just the best game ever)
2. NWN2, with Mask of the Betrayer
3. Baldur's Gate 2+Throne of Bhaal
4. NWN1, with all expansions and premium mods, with special props to the expansion "Hordes of the Underdark" and the premium mod "Wyvern Crown of Cormyr"
5. Baldur's Gate 1

My "OC-only" list, sadly and very unfortunately ignoring toolsets, mods, and expansions would be

1. Planescape: Torment
2. Baldur's Gate 2
3. NWN2
4. Baldur's Gate 1
5. Gateway to the Savage Frontier (fun old Gold-Box game)

For oldskool I'd also give a good nod to Menzoberranzan, the Eye of the Beholder series, and the Pool of Radiance series.

[Mr. Friendly]

I haven't really bothered reading the thread, save the last page.

For the aside about Fallout; Fallout 2 was better than Fallout 1. Both great games though.

As for the actual topic, it is unfair and really a question of which series/type of D&D games is best.

For me it would go something a bit like this:


Baldur's Gate series and Icewind Dale (especially the mod that runs BG on IDs engine; Icewind Gate I think?)
The SSI Collection; Pool of Radiance and on, as well as the Krynn and Dark Sun series of games
Eye of the Beholder series (also SSI, but much different)
Temple of Elemental Evil
NWN series


It's not that NWN is really "bad" it's just...

It's limited. More limited than it really should be. Honestly Everquest 1 and 2 and better "D&D" games than NWN is, based on the actual levels of immersion in the world.

BG stands out to me though as "the best"; it was just... well it was right. It stuck to the freaking script and managed to not be silly. Same with the SSI stuff.

[Jinura]

[QUOTE=Mr. Friendly;4111652]

It's limited. More limited than it really should be. Honestly Everquest 1 and 2 and better "D&D" games than NWN is, based on the actual levels of immersion in the world.
QUOTE]

How does Everquest get into this?

[Mr. Friendly]

[QUOTE=Mr. Friendly;4111652]

It's limited. More limited than it really should be. Honestly Everquest 1 and 2 and better "D&D" games than NWN is, based on the actual levels of immersion in the world.
QUOTE]

How does Everquest get into this?

I just meant that, in comparable programming and tech levels, EQ is a better "D&D" game than NWN. It's far more immersive, allows for more choice and has greater levels of backstory and such. Just my opinion. I wasn't saying EQ *is* a D&D game, though fundamentally at it's core... it kind of is.

[TheBoneSplitter]

DnD:

5. Dungeon Hack - It was simplicity for its time, although a lot of other rogue-like games beat it to the ground... meh.

4. Gold Box Games - They were all pretty grand... there's one that's presently unplayable through DOSBox for some weird unorthodox reason that I can't pin point (Pool of Radiance, can't get past the floppy bypass...) but otherwise extremely enjoyable.

3. Eye of the Beholder Trilogy - I don't have much to comment on it, but I do remember a lot of fond memories playing through this, the sequel and even the third.

2. Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures - The ancestor to Neverwinter Nights, but with a party system that's generally the same engine as every Gold Box game. Yes, you had an editor, yes you can make modules that were several times better than the sample module that the game with, yes you could replace graphics and textures, and yes, it was awesome.

1. NWN 1 - The second one really doesn't have any place on my list since I haven't played the OC enough at all to give it a thorough beating... but there was one persistent world that garnered enough entertainment from me, called "Higher Ground". It probably made the game a heck of a lot more Diablo like, but it was very very fun in customability. My wizard basically turned into a very effective and neat Staffmaster (which I think I remember it being called a quasi-class). Someone who may have traversed through this world may remember a wee bit more... but ahhhh the memories.

On another note, the OC through SOU through HOtU I've played through with several characters, there were a few single player modules that I've played that have been great... and it was just overall gratification enough.

Non-DnD (by franchise) -

1. Might and Magic.
2. Diablo. (Sorry guys, WoW doesn't count...)
3. Final Fantasy.
4. The Elder Scrolls.
5. Ultima.

[Sneak]

DnD based?

I'd have to say my all time favorite would have to be Neverwinter Nights (w/ expansions). I love that game to death.

Don't get me wrong, the single player campaign of the original was downright terrible. SoU was pretty good though, and HotU was really fun (nice mix of hack n slash, puzzles, and roleplaying). But really where it gets to shine is the modules.

Now, I have the Mac version so I don't get to play around with the toolset...but just from the fan made modules, it's amazing. I still play NWN for the modules. I'm gonna pick up NWN2 soon. Hopefully I won't be disappointed.

I also love BG2 (although the beginning dungeon sucks...but that's what the Dungeon-Be-Gone mod is for, I guess). For some reason, which sucks, I'm unable to re-install it on my computer now—I have all the discs, but I think either because I'm using an Intel mac or I upgraded to Leopard, it just won't install. No backwards compatibility with the new mac stuff and all that. BG1 is pretty good, although nowhere near as good as 2.

I liked KotOR 1, if that counts. Never got to play 2, because I don't own a PC. Same reason I never got to play Planescape: Torment. Now that I have an intel mac, though, I'm planning to get a copy of Windows and try to find a copy of Ps: T to play through so that I can finally experience its glory.

Yep, being a mac gamer (is that an oxymoron?) sucks.

Anyway, as far as Fallout goes...really great games. I didn't play 1 much, but I still have to say I prefer 2 anyway (I hate time limits of all kinds, so 1 just felt kind of restricting, even though it wasn't really). My copy does have some bugs and errors and such, but it's such a great (and huge...and unique) game anyway.

I'm kind of worried that Bethesda will muck up Fallout 3. I've never gotten to play any of the Elder Scrolls Series (wrong consoles, and mac), and I've heard they're great, but I've also heard some bad things about them, and Fallout Shoes are tough shoes to fill. Someone will be angry at them no matter what they do with the game.

[Cainen]

BG1 is, in my opinion, much better as BG1Tutu than the original game. It's basically BG1 in BG2's engine, complete with everything that was upgraded by the new engine(dual-wielding, kits, etcetera). It's not balanced by a long shot, but you can't win 'em all.

[EvilElitest]

I think it's much easier to miss depth where it's present than to see it where it's absent. Unless you're a literature teacher, but I'm not one.

Not really, people claiming a game has depth doesn't make it so. People claim that Eragon is the best fantasy book in the world, beating All other and is the most unique and fascinating book in history, but that doesn't make it so. He has a fair point about FF7's depth, it is very boring. FF6 i liked however
from
EE

[Koga]

Nethack (Slash'em if that counts, though it's more of an expansion pack....)

[EvilElitest]

It has very unique characters that each have an original model and each, apart from TNO, fight with one type of weapon only. Many of them possess unique special abilities. That's very jRPG-like.

I don't think unique characters with orginal models and weapon types is a Eastern claim only actually


It's a moving game, which is also very jRPG-like: western games work on your emotions much less often.

Not really, i find Eastern games exasperation to an extend, and far less emotional. tales of Symponia would be an emotional game, but i find Baldur's gate more so


Ah yes... I'd forgotten that Western society was populated only by emotionless robots capable of interacting via binary before the Japanese went and invented emotions
Rather ironic that


from
EE

[Jame5]

Despite it's limitations, Pool of Radiance (Apple II/e) is still one of my all time favorite D&D cRPG's.

I would really like to get something along the lines of the Baldur's Gate/PS: Torment series again, (with better graphics) but I doubt it will happen.

I like cRPG's where you handle a party, I really don't like the ones that require you to play with multiplayer.

[Ciaina]

ok, so.
Not in any particular order:

1)Baldurs Gate
2)Baldurs gate 2
3)Planetscape Torment
4) Neverwinter night 2 (railroad as it might be)
5) Temple of elemental evil

NOTES on temple of elemental evil:
This guy makes the list only AFTER the unofficial patch from The Cirlce Of The Nine.
Why is it here, in the top 5, and not say.... Pool of radiance ? Or maybe Icewind Dale ?
Simple. 'Cuz is the ONLY ONE that achieved a decent transposition of the rules, no matter what version (2, 3, 3.5, you name it).
This is no "real time bull" combat, with "strategical pause". You roll initiatives, you have TURNS, rounds, and they work like in Dungeon and Dragons.
Funny it took someone SO LONG to make a D&D game that uses the rules of... i dunno...... D&D ????

Aside from that, it's a pretty combat oriented, even if there are many quests it hardly compares to other titles in that aspect.

Keep in mind that we are talking about D&D games. And maybe im crazy but they should FEEL like d&d, not just a small part of it.
And thats why NwN2 made the list, while NwN1 didnt.
The STORY. The feeling. Not just combat.

Nwn1 is a cross-dressing hack'n'slash. The expansions as well.
Same goes for Icewind Dale.

On a side note, the GREATEST d&d pc game should be something with a planetscape level story, Temple of elemental evil system, nwn1 style multiplayer and 3.5 rules. But that would be a SMART choice, so i don't think we'll ever see it.


Now for the wild Ot generated in this thread about RPGS in general, even of easter birth, ill use a nice spoiler to avoid the " HUGE WALLTEXT OF DEATH" effect :D

So, jrpgs. Used to like em, now i find most of em childish grindfests with supbar storytelling and mostly stereotyped and annoying characters.

Now now. Some of my favorite games are actually jrpgs.
FF7 (with reserves, sometimes IS kinda cheeky)
FF Tactics (yeah, not a true jrpg but what the heck)
Xenogears.

Xenogears more than anything else, is THE BEST. And i dont even like giant robots.
Tons of GREAT chars, FANTASTIC story (that actually makes sense for a change. And not the ff8 style "im a fanboy so i gotta make speculations on this unholy mess of nonsense and try mesmerize myself into beliving it's actually genius" sense.

And it's not a kiddie story. Much like FFt, it is fresh and "light" but it's still pretty damn deep and mature.
I mean, cmon. One of the chars is a young priest that had to prostitute himself in order to provide for his little sister that went down-mute after watching their mother get cannibalized by a bunch of zombies.

Now try to fit THAT into others jrpgs like "Tales of kindergarten". Good luck.


For the rest, if it wasn't abundantly clear, in rpgs i favor plot and Characterization, with a side dish of freedom of choice (and not simply free roaming). It gives out the feeling of ROLEPLAY (aint that kinda the point?).

One of the BEST examples is deus ex 1.
You are not taken hand by hand through multiple choices texts. Your ACTIONS influence the story. And there are no scripted hints on what you can do or what the consequences will be. GREAT.

I also like what they did with the mass effect series. Choices made in a game have reflections in the sequels (IF you kept the saves :D). Not particularly fond of the gameplay or the cliches, but it's nice.

Aaaaaand i get irky when someone plants names like "diablo" in a rpg games list. Now, i played D2 for YEARS online. Ok ? I could say i LIKE that game but it would be an understatement. But there is a problem.

Those kind of games are NOT rpgs.
It's like throwing a "unreal tournament" in a "strategic military combat simulators" thread.
Both got guns, and surprisingly you shoot people in both. But they are as different as the sun and the moon.


Also, http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/28438/original/5700.necropost4kobf7.png?1259372643

Kinda bumped into the thread and was bored.

[Diarmuid]

Clearly you never played any of the Curse of the Azure Bonds series of games that took into account the round-based combat of D&D. While being graphically handicapped due to the time period they came out, those games were fantastic.

I was a huge fan of Eye of the Beholder back in they day and would say my enjoyment of that game was likely higher than the enjoyment I got from NWN.

[Starbuck_II]

ToEE has a cookie recipe in the manual. THAT has replay value. mmmm....replay value....

Also, it has reverse replay value, in that even the opening story is different depending on party alignment. And that one time I had my Paladin do the drinking contest because she had a CON of 18...priceless.

I know that was awesome. Wait, doesn't a Pally who does the drinking contest fall?
Granted I always drunk down the enemies so I could rob them all.
And failed my stealing pof the druid's treasure because trying and failing = XP.
(just keep cleric close by to heal the sad rogue if fail reflex so don't bleed out)

My list:
1. BG2: Great game, made thac0 actually fun. I have BG 1 from Good old games, but not dled yet. Still playing NWN 2/Torment Planescape
2. NWN 1: 3rd D&D, was fun. Epic play got a little too repititive:
Buff = chance of winning. No buff/forget = very little. Lot of work, but fun over all in Hell (3rd official module).
3. NWN 2: 3.5 D&D gaming, Bards are not Core but from Trailblazer sourcebook. Seriously, I'm glad they didn't made them Pathfinder.
I like all day Bard music (inspirations).
Finally got Act 2 (also retrying to see what thiefs side dofferent from city watch).
4. Temple of Elemental Evil: fun, 3.0 game. Buggy, but much fun. Love intros.
5. Planescape Torment: kinda fun, but graphics bug me. Also the fact that every freaking dude tries to shiv you.
Regeneration is cool though. Have only got Dakkon and done manhy quests.

[Driderman]

1. Planescape: Torment (If you haven't played it yet, get at gog.com NOW!)
2. Baldurs Gate II
3. KOTOR II (It's D20, it counts. Also, I'm totally alternative for choosing the second one!)
4. Baldurs Gate I
5. Neverwinter Nights I (Honorary listing for the persistent worlds I lost a couple of years in)

Also, did I mention that Planescape: Torment is The Best Game Ever Made So Far And Probably Forever?

[VanBuren]

NWN games are mostly multiplayer, to be honest. And for fan-made campaigns - for NWN1, the best modules I recommend wholeheartedly are the Penultima and Penultima Rerolled series, by Stefan Gagne of Sailor Nothing fame. A great combination of epic, funny and sometimes very moving.

I never forgave him for dropping the Hex Coda series halfway through.