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Draz74
2008-03-20, 08:19 PM
I'm trying to take a Factotum and make him able to deal some decent damage in combat.

I'm working under one very important restriction: no multiclassing or PrCs. Not even dips. This is supposed to be a pure Factotum.

And of course I will be using Cunning Insight frequently, but adding INT to damage a few times per encounter, while nice, isn't enough.

So I mostly have to figure out a combination of Feats that will make for a decent, if not really optimal combatant. Easier said than done, considering (1) Medium BAB, and (2) no Bonus Feats. (In fact, I wasn't even planning to be Human ... I was actually thinking Whisper Gnome. So no racial bonus feats even.)

An archer in this party would be nice, but it just seems impossible to make a decent archer without bonus feats from Fighter or Ranger. I could go
1) Point Blank Shot
3) Precise Shot
6) Rapid Shot
9) Manyshot
... etc., but it just seems weak to not be able to pick up even Manyshot until Level 9. And I'd even like to have one or two spare feats for non-combat uses.

So then I thought about exploiting Tome of Battle through feats. Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) at Level 6, then Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) at Level 9 is an OK possibility. If I eventually have more feats to spare, I could even build on this to get Shadow Blade and pump my DEX up for more damage.

Level 3 Martial Study (Shadow Blade Technique), Level 6 Martial Stance (Child of Shadow), Level 9 Shadow Blade, Level 12 Weapon Finesse, Level 15 Gloom Razor is another possibility I considered. It gives me decent defense and adds great mobility, but this is very feat-intensive and kicks in pretty late. And it doesn't actually add much to damage output, and Shadow Blade Technique isn't all that strong and is only there as a prerequisite. I think I'll leave the Gloom Razor madness to the actual Swordsages.

About the nicest gem I've found in Tome of Battle dips is Martial Study (Insightful Strike). Available at Level 6, no prerequisites, and a high Concentration check isn't a very hard thing for a Factotum to obtain. So if I take this, it will allow me to deal great damage for one attack per encounter. Or even more, 1/day, when I use Cunning Knowledge to boost my Concentration check. That's a good start. Any other feats that will expand my capability this much?

Or should I switch my thinking somewhere else? Races of the Wild anti-big-opponent feats? Simple old-fashioned Power Attacking, in spite of medium BAB? Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick? Combat Focus feat tree from PHB II? (OK, now I'm just sounding desperate, I admit.)

Oriental Adventures isn't allowed, so no Iajitsu Focus cheese.

Eldariel
2008-03-20, 08:25 PM
Have you considered a Wandcher? You can effectively act as an Archer and with all the actions you get, you'll be a machine gun with all the Wands you can think of.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-20, 08:45 PM
I was thinking about making a do everything type character, that would probably do all his fighting by bows/wands/mundane items/ect. The main advantage to my concept was that he would always have the right thing for the occasion, and he wouldn't need to concern himself with what he was not doing, since his regular actions wouldn't be amazing.

Of course the best possible set of feats for a Factotum goes something like:
Lvl 1: Font of Inspiration
Flaw: Font of Inspiration
Flaw: Font of Inspiration
Lvl 3: Font of Inspiration
Lvl 6: Font of Inspiration
Lvl 9: Font of Inspiration
Lvl 12: Font of Inspiration
Lvl 15: Font of Inspiration
Lvl 18: Font of Inspiration

Either be a race with an Int boost or be Human and add another Font in there.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 08:54 PM
*Gets popcorn, watches thread*

I've run into this problem too, and don't have any really good answers. I want to play a pure factotum, but the dearth of damage in combat looks to be debilitating.

Manyshot I know counts as one attack, letting you use Cunning Insight for each shot, but as you mentioned is very feat intensive.

I was looking at using odd weapons for a more battlefield control aspect. Nets, for instance, use a ranged touch attack and are a pain for most opponents.

What helps is to prep Bite of the Wererat as one of your spells. It gives a healthy boost to Dex, a bite attack, and Weapon Finesse. Heroics would let you get that Manyshot feat (or another fighter bonus) for 10 min/level much sooner. A pity you can only prep 1 copy of each per day...

Draz74
2008-03-20, 08:59 PM
Keep the ideas coming, this is already encouraging ...


Of course the best possible set of feats for a Factotum goes something like:
Lvl 1: Font of Inspiration
Flaw: Font of Inspiration
Flaw: Font of Inspiration
Lvl 3: Font of Inspiration
Lvl 6: Font of Inspiration
Lvl 9: Font of Inspiration
Lvl 12: Font of Inspiration
Lvl 15: Font of Inspiration
Lvl 18: Font of Inspiration

Thanks, but from-the-web content is discouraged. Even if Font of Inspiration was allowed, this is effective, but boring. I'd prefer a greater variety of feats.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 09:01 PM
Thanks, but from-the-web content is discouraged. Even if Font of Inspiration was allowed, this is effective, but boring. I'd prefer a greater variety of feats.

Plus, your Int would have to be preeeetty high to take it that many times.

Iku Rex
2008-03-20, 09:33 PM
You get some sor/wiz spells. Those can be used for good effect.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 09:37 PM
You get some sor/wiz spells. Those can be used for good effect.

Self-buffs seem to be the best way to go with those. Then again, if you're playing a Factotum, I'd presume you want some versatility in your spell selection too.

Draz74
2008-03-20, 09:38 PM
You get some sor/wiz spells. Those can be used for good effect.

Yep. Besides Chronicled's suggestions of Heroics and Bite of the X, I've definitely thought of Wraithstrike. Still ... since each spell is only 1/day, I can't base combat prowess entirely on those.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 09:47 PM
Yep. Besides Chronicled's suggestions of Heroics and Bite of the X, I've definitely thought of Wraithstrike. Still ... since each spell is only 1/day, I can't base combat prowess entirely on those.

Keeping in mind that I have yet to test this theory...

I see a pure Factotum filling the role of versatile battlefield control more than anything else. Besides self-buffs, have some debuffs and battlefield shaping (clouds, walls) spells available--since you've got so few, try to make them count with no-save selections; use a trip weapon (you've got the Int for Combat Expertise/Imp Trip); have a variety of odd weapons (nets, bolas, etc) or cheap one-shot items (thunderstones, etc) to hinder enemies.

Flanking would be a good area to focus on; there's a few feats that help that: Martial Stance (Island of Blades), and some that improve flanking bonuses.

As said in the Factotum description, a Factotum seems to work better when it doesn't try to do one thing all the time. You can't "main tank" throughout an encounter without burning all your inspiration early on. Better to keep adapting and finding different ways to contribute.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-20, 10:14 PM
Take the Magic in the Blood feat from PGtF all your Factotum spell like abilities usable 1/day each become usable 3/day.

Take lots of Fonts of Inspiration feats.

Use the Iajutsu Skill from Oriental Adventures.

Remember seeing that if a PC couldn't use a Marshal in his game (No multiclassing restriction) spending a feat to pick up an Aura. (Motivate Intelligence (with Charisma)) so might be worth while to see if that is an option.

For a ECL 20 build consider taking a +1ECL race that bumps up Intelligence.

If you have access to Magic of Faerun the Spellfire wielder feat could be nice.

Draz74
2008-03-20, 10:18 PM
use a trip weapon (you've got the Int for Combat Expertise/Imp Trip);

How feasible do you think a trip build is for a Gnome? I almost wonder if it could work, with +INT to trip attempts and the Confound the Big Folk feat. Maybe even a feat or two on Setting Sun maneuvers. But a racial -5 to trips still really hurts. I started looking into this direction, and started doubting that I could actually pull it off.

namo
2008-03-20, 10:28 PM
Don't forget the spells that let wizards use Int to attack : Whirling Blade, Thunderlance...

But yes, the pure Factotum will always seem subpar when it comes to damage.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 10:29 PM
How feasible do you think a trip build is for a Gnome? I almost wonder if it could work, with +INT to trip attempts and the Confound the Big Folk feat. Maybe even a feat or two on Setting Sun maneuvers. But a racial -5 to trips still really hurts. I started looking into this direction, and started doubting that I could actually pull it off.

Only a -4, actually. I was listing general factotum ideas, not just for whispergnomes. You may be right looking into Confound the Big Folk; a Factotum could make a pretty mean Killer Gnome build (LogicNinja's idea on the gleemax forums). For bigger Factotums, it seems like a very viable option.

Magic in the Blood seems reaaaaally cheesy. And not all of us use Forgotten Realms material. Still, kudos for finding it. That's one heck of a feat.

Draz74
2008-03-20, 10:31 PM
Take the Magic in the Blood feat from PGtF all your Factotum spell like abilities usable 1/day each become usable 3/day.

Aside from the way Regional feats often aren't allowed outside of a Forgotten Realms game, this only works for "racial" spell-like abilities.


Take lots of Fonts of Inspiration feats.

Use the Iajutsu Skill from Oriental Adventures.

I already explained why these won't work.


Remember seeing that if a PC couldn't use a Marshal in his game (No multiclassing restriction) spending a feat to pick up an Aura. (Motivate Intelligence (with Charisma)) so might be worth while to see if that is an option.

Now that's interesting. I could think of a lot of Charismatic characters that could use this option. Is it homebrew, or is it actually from a book?


Only a -4, actually. I was listing general factotum ideas, not just for whispergnomes.

-5 if you count the Strength penalty. Still ... thanks for the quick feedback. Confound the Big Folk might just be fun enough that I'll have to go with that even if it's not really optimal. :smallcool:

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 10:39 PM
I already explained why these won't work.

Technically, this would. A pure Factotum has ALL skills. This includes things like Autohypnosis, Iajutsu, and other oddities. Getting Iajutsu focus is cheesy as heck, but it's legal.


Darn about the FR feat.

BardicDuelist
2008-03-20, 10:41 PM
FoI is the most optimized way to go. If that bores you, you do have other options, but they won't be nearly as strong. Going further than that, you will probably want to find a way to gain SA as much as possible, as this makes your Cunning Strike feature able to do horrendous amounts of damage (especially with FoI, +13d6 to every attack in a round is nothing to scoff at).

If you run out of FoI times to take a feat, the Manyshot or TWF trees are a good way to go, as you get more chances to add Cunning Strike and Cunning Insight.

You can gain Uncanny Dodge (not flat-footed) and Evasion with some Incarnum feats: Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Bind Least Chakra (Impulse Boots). Not necessairly great, but improving your ability to survive is never bad.

PA isn't a horrible option, but you aren't really at a loss for ways to gain damage.

Quick Draw is usually in my melee factotum's arsenal, but without Ijatsu Focus, you won't need it.



Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606)

The_Snark
2008-03-20, 10:42 PM
Magic in the Blood doesn't work, because the spells are spells rather than spell-like abilities. You'd also need an initiator level of 5 for Martial Study (Insightful Strike), which means you won't be able to get it until level 12 (or a couple levels earlier if you get a bonus feat).

If you go in for ranged combat, I really don't know that I'd worry about not getting Manyshot until level 9. You can still use Rapid Shot to get two attacks, and at a better range and attack bonus, too; not being able to move isn't that huge a deal.

Tripping... probably won't work for a Small-sized person, unless you go heavily into Setting Sun stuff; but since you can't get the maneuvers that let you use Dex until very high level as a non-initiator, it's probably out. Confound the Big Folk is great, but you can't get it until level 12, and it won't work on Medium-size enemies (unless you use Greater Reduce Person from the Spell Compendium), and you'll need three other feats to get and make use of it.

Wraithstrike's only 1 round, so I'm not sure if I'd bother with it, especially since you don't have a lot of attacks and probably won't have Power Attack; Heroics and the werecreature spells are indeed good, and while Improved Invisibility will only last 1 encounter, it's still a good spell.

Personally, I'd be inclined to go with the archer, but a nimble attacker using flanking and aid another (possibly using those aid-another enhancing feats from the PHBII) might make a good team-inclined factotum? The factotum isn't really made to be a combat machine, so this is playing against type a little bit.

Edit- I'm not really sure what Motivate Intelligence would be doing for you, since your Intelligence-based checks are already going to be high and Charisma is not a terribly significant stat for you, but it would have to be a dip or homebrewing in any case. The Draconic Aura feat from Dragon Magic could get you a draconic aura, but it wouldn't increase unless you took yet another feat, and most of the draconic auras aren't terribly useful anyway.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 10:45 PM
If you go in for ranged combat, I really don't know that I'd worry about not getting Manyshot until level 9. You can still use Rapid Shot to get two attacks, and at a better range and attack bonus, too; not being able to move isn't that huge a deal.

Manyshot counts as 1 attack; your Int to damage applies to each shot, saving you a lot of inspiration points. It's not the movement that's the issue.

Ascension
2008-03-20, 11:06 PM
Well, I know you already said you didn't want to/couldn't do it, but really, font of inspiration (repeated) is your answer. Other than that, a trip build sounds good, but wouldn't work well with a small character. Hmm... Just brainstorming out loud for a moment... I highly doubt the INT to damage from three levels of swashbuckler would stack with cunning insight, although it would save you from having to burn inspiration for the ability... (not that you want to multiclass anyway).

Hmph. I'm afraid I can't help you much. Good luck with the whisper gnome, though... I love those little guys. Somebody'll probably be through here in a few hours to tell you they're broken, but don't listen to 'em. Hiding's the only thing they do ridiculously well, and it sounds like you aren't planning to do too much of that anyway.

Draz74
2008-03-20, 11:08 PM
Technically, this would. A pure Factotum has ALL skills. This includes things like Autohypnosis, Iajutsu, and other oddities. Getting Iajutsu focus is cheesy as heck, but it's legal.

Except with Oriental Adventures not existing in the campaign, Iajutsu doesn't even exist as a skill.


FoI is the most optimized way to go. If that bores you, you do have other options, but they won't be nearly as strong. Going further than that, you will probably want to find a way to gain SA as much as possible, as this makes your Cunning Strike feature able to do horrendous amounts of damage (especially with FoI, +13d6 to every attack in a round is nothing to scoff at).

Again, web content (as opposed to something actually in a book) is discouraged in this exercise. Cunning Strike is nice situationally, or in emergencies, but it's really not a very efficient use of Inspiration. (To "nova" against the last foe in an encounter? Sure. Otherwise ... not so much.) And Sneak Attack opportunities should be very easy to get without spending feats on them (this is a stealthy character, and there's a Warblade in the party to flank with).


You'd also need an initiator level of 5 for Martial Study (Insightful Strike), which means you won't be able to get it until level 12 (or a couple levels earlier if you get a bonus feat).

My bad, I was remembering it as a Level 2 maneuver. Well ... hmmm. That definitely makes me want to reconsider whether I want to spend a bunch of skill points on Concentration.


Tripping... probably won't work for a Small-sized person, unless you go heavily into Setting Sun stuff; but since you can't get the maneuvers that let you use Dex until very high level as a non-initiator, it's probably out. Confound the Big Folk is great, but you can't get it until level 12, and it won't work on Medium-size enemies (unless you use Greater Reduce Person from the Spell Compendium), and you'll need three other feats to get and make use of it.

Some good points here. :smallfrown: Although, for the record, normal Reduce Person would work just fine vs. Medium-size opponents.

Pity that Confound the Big Folk isn't a Fighter feat, to add with Heroics.

The_Snark
2008-03-20, 11:12 PM
It would, but the greater version lasts 10 min/level.

Oh yes—Mnemonic Enhancer is at least an interesting spell to use, if there's a 1st-level spell you want to have more access to (i.e. Reduce Person). Pearls of Power are also an intriguing tool for you, and even just a couple low-level ones could help your spells last you a lot longer.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 11:19 PM
By spending 1 inspiration point, you can mimic a spell as a spell-like ability.

See quoted text. As far as I can tell, they count as spell-like abilities, not spells.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-21, 04:29 AM
Regarding the Marshal Aura variant was in a class chronicle's article at Wizard's so might not be acceptable:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613

Chronicled
2008-03-21, 01:49 PM
Here's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436) a Factotum handbook that might provide additional ideas. Most of his thoughts are about multiclassing, which is unfortunate.

Draz74
2008-03-22, 11:11 AM
Here's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436) a Factotum handbook that might provide additional ideas. Most of his thoughts are about multiclassing, which is unfortunate.

Yeah, I've read through it several times, but thanks anyway.

Ramza00
2008-03-22, 12:05 PM
Take the Magic in the Blood feat from PGtF all your Factotum spell like abilities usable 1/day each become usable 3/day.



Doesn't work for two reasons
1) Magic in the Blood only affects racial spell like abiliites, thus only things that come from races or inherited templates suchas half fey
2) Your arcane dileante abilities aren'ttechnically 1/day, they are usable during the prepartion time followed by a recharge time of 8 hours after rest

Aquillion
2008-03-22, 03:43 PM
Are Skill Tricks allowed? Those are good for any Factotum, since you have so many skill points, and will give you things to do without burning Inspiration. Of course, most of them are more for rogues than for heavy damage-dealers, but some might come in handy, and the real advantage is that for a Factotum they're absurdly cheap, costing only 2 of your plentiful skill points and prerequisites that you'll probably meet anyway. (The really fun combinations tend to require Iaijutsu Focus, sadly.)

EDIT: Also, depending on the situation your party is likely to be in, you might consider mounted combat. That's one of the most direct ways skill checks can help you in a fight, after all... you'll have to buy a mount, probably, and they won't be anything amazing unless your DM lets you buy something neat, but it's still worth considering.

Chronicled
2008-03-22, 04:54 PM
EDIT: Also, depending on the situation your party is likely to be in, you might consider mounted combat. That's one of the most direct ways skill checks can help you in a fight, after all... you'll have to buy a mount, probably, and they won't be anything amazing unless your DM lets you buy something neat, but it's still worth considering.

Or you can get a mount that's better than a Ranger's animal buddy, if your DM allows this feat: Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a).

Edit: Sorry, forgot about the "no web enhancements" thing.