PDA

View Full Version : Archery ranger advice



Arakune
2008-03-20, 09:09 PM
My friend are playing a archery oriented ranger. What good tips I can get? We are both beginners, but since my character are a wizard I already got something for me.

dman11235
2008-03-20, 09:36 PM
How beginner? Also, what books? Sniping or volley? Precision damage or massive arrows? Mounted? Artillery or pot shot?

Arakune
2008-03-21, 04:05 PM
Overall best.

We are beginners in a sense of not having too much real experience with rpgs and 0 with DnD.

Eldariel
2008-03-21, 04:10 PM
If you have access to Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel, take 4 levels of Scout and the feat 'Swift Hunter'. It allows you to stack Scout- and Ranger-levels for Skirmish (Scout's version of Sneak Attack; activates when you move 10' in a turn) and Favored Enemy, and you can use Skirmish against Favored Enemies. Combine that with Greater Manyshot-feat (available in System Reference Document here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35)) and you can move and do up to 4 Skirmish-attacks each turn. A compendium for the expanded material, such as Scout and Swift Hunter (and Ranged Skirmisher, which allows using Skirmish up to 60'), can be found in www.crystalkeep.com.

That's the simpliest way to make a good archer. But anyways, any Archer wants Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot (it's a prerequisite) and eventually Improved Precise Shot. Manyshot is something Ranger gets for free, and it's good with Skirmish (although you really want Greater Manyshot), poor otherwise.


If you have just the core 3 books in Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual, you'll have a hard time making a powerful Archer, but still, pick up those feats and focus on high Strength to go with your Dex, get a weapon with lots of enhancement bonuses.

Arakune
2008-03-21, 04:18 PM
Thanks, the DM have complete scoundrel so we can work out something.

About equipments, anything good?

Admiral Squish
2008-03-21, 05:52 PM
Skirmish is bonus damage, yes, but it's no good, because even with greater manyshot, you're still taking a HUGE penalty to attack, and if you're a ranger, you need that attack bonus for distant targets. Plus, precision damage (what skirmish is) only applies once per attack, so even with four arrows, you get one bonus. You also have to mve ten feet a turn, and have to be within sixty feet at best, which is too close for any archer to be realistically doing. And to top it all off, it advances so slowly it's not even worth burning the half-dozen levels it would take just to get a +2d6 on one arrow.

What you want is point-blank shot, far shot, precise shot, and rapid shot. Max out climb, hide, and jump. An archer's strength is in being out of reach. Maybe even get some sort of item for teleport or fly. Find a fortified, out-of-reach position, and full-attack from there. Rapid shot not only lets you choose the targets for each arrow, but it's also only a -2, and more attacks means a better chance of at least one hitting. Every five levels after first you'll be getting another attack, starting with two per turn. You get manyshot for free, anyway, and that should be plenty for any situation where you're firing on the move. Even if someone gets close, five-foot step out of reach and fire away.

Eldariel
2008-03-21, 06:25 PM
Skirmish is bonus damage, yes, but it's no good, because even with greater manyshot, you're still taking a HUGE penalty to attack, and if you're a ranger, you need that attack bonus for distant targets. Plus, precision damage (what skirmish is) only applies once per attack, so even with four arrows, you get one bonus. You also have to mve ten feet a turn, and have to be within sixty feet at best, which is too close for any archer to be realistically doing. And to top it all off, it advances so slowly it's not even worth burning the half-dozen levels it would take just to get a +2d6 on one arrow.

Greater Manyshot specifically says that Precision Damage applies multiple times since you have multiple attack rolls. And since you get +7d6 and Improved Skirmish for +2d6 with proper classing (+5d6/+5 and +2d6/+2 from Improved Skirmish at the very least), it's very much worth it; you get an average of 38.5 extra damage per arrow that applies against anything since you have Favored Enemy to bypass the limitation. A well-built Skirmisher does 43 damage per arrow for 4 arrows (the average hits of Greater Manyshot against average AC are actually more common than those of Rapid Shot).


What you want is point-blank shot, far shot, precise shot, and rapid shot. Max out climb, hide, and jump. An archer's strength is in being out of reach. Maybe even get some sort of item for teleport or fly. Find a fortified, out-of-reach position, and full-attack from there. Rapid shot not only lets you choose the targets for each arrow, but it's also only a -2, and more attacks means a better chance of at least one hitting. Every five levels after first you'll be getting another attack, starting with two per turn. You get manyshot for free, anyway, and that should be plenty for any situation where you're firing on the move. Even if someone gets close, five-foot step out of reach and fire away.

That's one kind of an Archer. Skirmisher is always 60' away from his/her target, so he's relatively safe. He can shoot at long ranges since he's still got Rapid Shot for free and thus he can do volleys at those 1000' ranges, but once you actually engage the opponent, he can do far more damage; that is, when you're in an actual combat instead of just archery range target practice (anyone can do that, it doesn't take a build), Skirmisher's performance is far superior.


EDIT: The simpliest Archer Swift Hunter is:
Ranger 1/Scout 4 (picking Swift Hunter-feat on level 5)/Ranger 14/Scout 1

You get:
PBS, Precise Shot on the first levels with Swift Hunter on 5 and Improved Skirmish on 6. Ranged Skirmisher is a decent option for level 9 feat (requires Far Shot though so you must be Human to afford it) and your level 12 feat should be Greater Manyshot (as you get Manyshot from Ranger). Alternatively, you could move Swift Hunter to 6, Improved Skirmish to 10 and Greater Manyshot to 9 by taking only 3 Scout-levels early and thus getting Ranger 6 on 9. Eventually you'll want to pick up Darkstalker-feat (Lords of Madness) to hide from creatures with Blindsight, Tremorsense and all other unusual senses, and that's about all.

The Swift Hunter Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=854152) is a good resource for this type, available at the official Wizards forums.

Admiral Squish
2008-03-21, 06:48 PM
Greater Manyshot specifically says that Precision Damage applies multiple times since you have multiple attack rolls. And since you get +7d6 and Improved Skirmish for +2d6 with proper classing (+5d6/+5 and +2d6/+2 from Improved Skirmish at the very least), it's very much worth it; you get an average of 38.5 extra damage per arrow that applies against anything since you have Favored Enemy to bypass the limitation. A well-built Skirmisher does 43 damage per arrow for 4 arrows (the average hits of Greater Manyshot against average AC are actually more common than those of Rapid Shot).

That's a level twenty build. He said they were beginners, which implies he's probably starting somewhere lower. I can't find greater manyshot in any of my books, so I can't say I profess much knowledge on the subject. However, I do know (vaguely) it's got a pretty high level requirement. The other issue is improved skirmish requires twenty fet of movement, which is ourtright ridiculous. The big problem with skirmish is that you HAVE to move to do anything effective. You can't be entangled, grappled, on too rough terrain, or even surrounded to do it, and without it you're screwed because you've poured all your resources into that close-range combat mode.


That's one kind of an Archer. Skirmisher is always 60' away from his/her target, so he's relatively safe. He can shoot at long ranges since he's still got Rapid Shot for free and thus he can do volleys at those 1000' ranges, but once you actually engage the opponent, he can do far more damage; that is, when you're in an actual combat instead of just archery range target practice (anyone can do that, it doesn't take a build), Skirmisher's performance is far superior.

Relatively being the operative word. 60' is way within charging range of anything with average speed. The results are good... in the end. However it's PAINFULLY slow to build up, and though I don't know how greater manyshot works exactly, using normal manyshot rules it's still a -8 to every attack, and they can only be used on one target at a time.

Eldariel
2008-03-21, 07:11 PM
That's a level twenty build. He said they were beginners, which implies he's probably starting somewhere lower. I can't find greater manyshot in any of my books, so I can't say I profess much knowledge on the subject. However, I do know (vaguely) it's got a pretty high level requirement. The other issue is improved skirmish requires twenty fet of movement, which is ourtright ridiculous. The big problem with skirmish is that you HAVE to move to do anything effective. You can't be entangled, grappled, on too rough terrain, or even surrounded to do it, and without it you're screwed because you've poured all your resources into that close-range combat mode.

Twenty feet movement is easy as long as you aren't outright stopped from moving; with Tumble, you can do it every turn save some really bizarre sitiuations (you'll have insane Reflex-save so you won't get bogged down easily; on later levels, you'll get Freedom of Movement as a spell) and with Greater Manyshot you'll do 4 attacks (it's in Psionic Feats in SRD, which I linked earlier).

That's a build up to level 20 that's playable from level 1; it's not something that takes time to mature, it simply progresses better than normal Martial characters. It easily outshines a normal archer in short ranges and is just as effective as any archer not specifically built with extreme ranges in mind when it comes to those 1000' shots (that is, any archer without a Weapon Specialization/Ranged Weapon Mastery-tree and martial maneuvers for extra attacks). On level 1, you do 1d8+1d6+Str damage. On level 5 you do 1d8+2d6+Str damage. On level 6, a character going for fast Improved Skirmish starts to deal 1d8+4d6+Str damage. On level 9, it becomes 3d6 (5d6 with Improved) and a character going for fast Greater Manyshot picks Greater Manyshot up. Level 12 sees you with Greater Manyshot and Improved Skirmish regardless of your build so you get to shoot 3 arrows at -6 (better than the Rapid Shot archer's secondary attack's bonus, which is -7), each dealing 1d8+5d6+Str damage (meaning you'll deal more damage with a single arrow than a modestly enhanced bow and 18 Str archer deals with an entire volley). Next level it becomes 6d6, level 17 sees it finally become 7d6 along with the 4th arrow.

Greater Manyshot allows targeting different targets and requires the same stuff as Manyshot, so you'll qualify easily by level 9. Effectively, it's just a matter of how long you want to use a single attack versus multiples (of course you still have the option of being a Rapid Shot machine, or Skirmishing with a single arrow, just Greater Manyshot Skirmishing tends to be more effective as long as it's legal).



Relatively being the operative word. 60' is way within charging range of anything with average speed. The results are good... in the end. However it's PAINFULLY slow to build up, and though I don't know how greater manyshot works exactly, using normal manyshot rules it's still a -8 to every attack, and they can only be used on one target at a time.

You'll be in range of charges anyways, but at least you'll be more mobile than the 5' stepping Rapid Shot Archer who either takes AoOs or just runs with single shot when faced by something Large that charges up to you.

Basically, no, Skirmish isn't perfect (where's the fun in D&D if there wasn't versatility in what's worth playing?), but it does blow traditional archers out of water efficiency-wise; it can do all a normal archer does and in addition do a great job fighting at point blank range, something that's critical in dungeons and buildings and something that normal archer really has trouble with.

Admiral Squish
2008-03-21, 08:08 PM
Twenty feet movement is easy as long as you aren't outright stopped from moving; with Tumble, you can do it every turn save some really bizarre sitiuations (you'll have insane Reflex-save so you won't get bogged down easily; on later levels, you'll get Freedom of Movement as a spell) and with Greater Manyshot you'll do 4 attacks (it's in Psionic Feats in SRD, which I linked earlier).

That explains it. Still, a wall of kobolds does put a damper on it. Can't tumble into an occupied square, and it would only have to be two or three kobolds thick to keep you in. You're running into much the same problem as the half-ogre with the chain. You WILL run out of room. It's just a question of when your DM decides he'd had enough.


That's a build up to level 20 that's playable from level 1; it's not something that takes time to mature, it simply progresses better than normal Martial characters. It easily outshines a normal archer in short ranges and is just as effective as any archer not specifically built with extreme ranges in mind when it comes to those 1000' shots (that is, any archer without a Weapon Specialization/Ranged Weapon Mastery-tree and martial maneuvers for extra attacks). On level 1, you do 1d8+1d6+Str damage. On level 5 you do 1d8+2d6+Str damage. On level 6, a character going for fast Improved Skirmish starts to deal 1d8+4d6+Str damage. On level 9, it becomes 3d6 (5d6 with Improved) and a character going for fast Greater Manyshot picks Greater Manyshot up. Level 12 sees you with Greater Manyshot and Improved Skirmish regardless of your build so you get to shoot 3 arrows at -6 (better than the Rapid Shot archer's secondary attack's bonus, which is -7), each dealing 1d8+5d6+Str damage (meaning you'll deal more damage with a single arrow than a modestly enhanced bow and 18 Str archer deals with an entire volley). Next level it becomes 6d6, level 17 sees it finally become 7d6 along with the 4th arrow.

I'm not sure how 'up 1d6 every four levels' is considered 'advances better than other martial characters'. Also, it would have been a lot faster just to say it gos up 1d6 every four levels, you get improved skirmish at six, manyshot as bonus, greater manyshot at 9, and the number of arrows goes up by one every four levels after six.


Greater Manyshot allows targeting different targets and requires the same stuff as Manyshot, so you'll qualify easily by level 9. Effectively, it's just a matter of how long you want to use a single attack versus multiples (of course you still have the option of being a Rapid Shot machine, or Skirmishing with a single arrow, just Greater Manyshot Skirmishing tends to be more effective as long as it's legal).

...at a -8 attack. That's the same difference as hitting a foe in full plate and hitting the same foe without it. At level seventeen, you could hit a foe with 19 AC half the time (assuming tens). I can get nineteen AC at first level, with only one 12 in my abilities. At seventeen, 19 AC is laughable. Even with an eighteen in dex, and a +6 item, that's only 26 AC at 50%.


You'll be in range of charges anyways, but at least you'll be more mobile than the 5' stepping Rapid Shot Archer who either takes AoOs or just runs with single shot when faced by something Large that charges up to you.

...Did you somehow not see the climb and jump suggestions? The fly, or the teleport? Something large that charges you has to be large, flying, and have picked you out from the rest, despite the obscene hide modifier. And for that, we have tanglefoot bags. Say hi to falling damage.


Basically, no, Skirmish isn't perfect (where's the fun in D&D if there wasn't versatility in what's worth playing?), but it does blow traditional archers out of water efficiency-wise; it can do all a normal archer does and in addition do a great job fighting at point blank range, something that's critical in dungeons and buildings and something that normal archer really has trouble with.

Admittedly, there is some advantage in medium-close range. However, at a big cost to attack, range, and general versatility.

dman11235
2008-03-21, 09:21 PM
Dude, swift hunters are AWESOME. One of the best archer types out there. And of course, my favorite swift hunter is a raptoran swift hunter, but raptorans are my favorite race. I take that back, shadow (LoM) raptorans are my favorite race. Damage: if you do it right you can get +9d6 at level 20. Or more. Check out the Swift hunter's Handbook for details. It involves PrCs (Dragon Devotee and Unseen Seer). And the damage is unavoidable if your target casts arcane spells since you took the favored enemy arcanist option from CMage. Also take Solitary Hunter (check Crystal Keep, I can't remember where it's from) instead of an animal companion. Add in any other type you think you'll need (constructs, undead), and if you take Stalker of Karesh, you have Favored Enemy (evil). And a swift hunter has an easier time staying out of reach than most archers, since they rely on manyshot/greater manyshot and as such can continue to be mobile and keep up their damage. And raptorans even more so past level 5 since at level 6 you take Fly-by Attack (which allows for a standard action: GMS, well, at level 9 when you get the feat). And improved Skirmish requires effective scout level 7. So you won't take that until level 12.

Eldariel
2008-03-22, 06:01 AM
That explains it. Still, a wall of kobolds does put a damper on it. Can't tumble into an occupied square, and it would only have to be two or three kobolds thick to keep you in. You're running into much the same problem as the half-ogre with the chain. You WILL run out of room. It's just a question of when your DM decides he'd had enough.

You can easily Tumble over them. And in very tight areas, you'll still be just as good as the Hiding Sniper who doesn't have a place to hide in and nowhere to climb or jump. And that essentially means you walked into a trap, which is unlikely since you can be a Trapfinder too.


I'm not sure how 'up 1d6 every four levels' is considered 'advances better than other martial characters'. Also, it would have been a lot faster just to say it gos up 1d6 every four levels, you get improved skirmish at six, manyshot as bonus, greater manyshot at 9, and the number of arrows goes up by one every four levels after six.

Normal Martial character doesn't advance damage at all. I don't see what part of 1d6>0 is hard to grasp.


...at a -8 attack. That's the same difference as hitting a foe in full plate and hitting the same foe without it. At level seventeen, you could hit a foe with 19 AC half the time (assuming tens). I can get nineteen AC at first level, with only one 12 in my abilities. At seventeen, 19 AC is laughable. Even with an eighteen in dex, and a +6 item, that's only 26 AC at 50%.

Sigh, you max your Dex. That means ~Dex 32-33 on level 17. Also, you'll obviously have boosts to hit, such as Greater Bracers of Archery (+2), a GMWd bow (+5) and so on. Hitting is easy. The page I gave you has the appropriate chart for how many arrows you should shoot at each AC to maximize your chances of hitting. So just line down their AC and use the optimal method of attack. Note that even with your -8 to every arrow, you still deal more damage on average than a Rapid Shotting guy taking -2 to the first two, -7 to second, -12 to the third and -17 to the fourth.


...Did you somehow not see the climb and jump suggestions? The fly, or the teleport? Something large that charges you has to be large, flying, and have picked you out from the rest, despite the obscene hide modifier. And for that, we have tanglefoot bags. Say hi to falling damage.

Once you fire, your Hide will be at -20. All monsters max Spot. You do the math. Oh, and Swift Hunter can do just as good a job as a Hiding Sniper; there's no reason not to max Hide (and since you have 8 extra ranks on level 1 from Scout, you can max out two more skills than a normal Ranger, so you can actually get the movement skills without as much loss as a straight Ranger). Fly and Teleport are both Standard Actions that provoke AoOs from items so you'll take pounding if you use them and miss your attack. Opponents that can't fly are trivial after level 10, so you can't bank on Fly to keep you safe from anything. Likewise, all those Jump and Climb-ranks will be worthless once characters gain the ability to Fly constantly.


Admittedly, there is some advantage in medium-close range. However, at a big cost to attack, range, and general versatility.

No, there's no cost whatsoever. You lose one point of BAB and that's it. You'll still have Rapid Shot, you'll have more skillpoints and your max range is no shorter than that of a Sniper.



Improved Skirmish requires effective Scout-level of 5. You can take it at 6; it requires +2d6/+1.

Chronicled
2008-03-22, 06:19 AM
Skirmish is bonus damage, yes, but it's no good, because even with greater manyshot, you're still taking a HUGE penalty to attack, and if you're a ranger, you need that attack bonus for distant targets. Plus, precision damage (what skirmish is) only applies once per attack, so even with four arrows, you get one bonus. You also have to mve ten feet a turn, and have to be within sixty feet at best, which is too close for any archer to be realistically doing. And to top it all off, it advances so slowly it's not even worth burning the half-dozen levels it would take just to get a +2d6 on one arrow.

What you want is point-blank shot, far shot, precise shot, and rapid shot. Max out climb, hide, and jump. An archer's strength is in being out of reach. Maybe even get some sort of item for teleport or fly. Find a fortified, out-of-reach position, and full-attack from there. Rapid shot not only lets you choose the targets for each arrow, but it's also only a -2, and more attacks means a better chance of at least one hitting. Every five levels after first you'll be getting another attack, starting with two per turn. You get manyshot for free, anyway, and that should be plenty for any situation where you're firing on the move. Even if someone gets close, five-foot step out of reach and fire away.

That's... horrible advice. Have you even LOOKED at the Swift Hunter feat, let alone at what the builds can do? They're the most effective archer build out there, and can even beat out the cleric archers (which in itself speaks wonders). I'm not going to bother explaining why you're wrong, since others have done so already. Instead, here's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=854152) the link to the Swift Hunter's Handbook. You might take a look at it before offering more factually incorrect suggestions.

Talya
2008-03-22, 06:39 AM
I think whoever at wotc let skirmish apply to archery needs to get off the crack.

Come on...someone who gets better at archery while running? I can't bring myself to play one.

Eldariel
2008-03-22, 07:40 AM
I think whoever at wotc let skirmish apply to archery needs to get off the crack.

Come on...someone who gets better at archery while running? I can't bring myself to play one.

As I understand Skirmish, it signifies that you move looking for openings and a better angle to shoot at the opponent and as long as you keep moving, your opponent will be unable to properly close all the gaps. I feel it makes perfect sense, moreso with a bow than with melee weapons.

Talya
2008-03-22, 08:24 AM
The only way skirmish makes "sense," is if you apply it only to melee weapons, and remove the "precision damage" moniker. Moving never makes you more accurate, but if you do it right, it does add the momentum of your entire body (not just your weapon itself) to a melee-weapon swing.

All it adds to a ranged weapon is wild innaccuracy. Ten times so for a bow.

Eldariel
2008-03-22, 08:54 AM
The only way skirmish makes "sense," is if you apply it only to melee weapons, and remove the "precision damage" moniker. Moving never makes you more accurate, but if you do it right, it does add the momentum of your entire body (not just your weapon itself) to a melee-weapon swing.

All it adds to a ranged weapon is wild innaccuracy. Ten times so for a bow.

I won't disagree with that, but I think the idea is that the guy just has stable hands (that is, the game seems to ignore the problems caused by shooting while moving) so he somehow takes no penalties for shooting while moving and uses the mobility to get in position where opponent is more vulnerable than normal and taking telling shots. I mean, the fact that it's precision damage clearly alludes that the damage is caused by the shots hitting vulnerable areas and since there's the movement restriction, the only thing I can think of is that the character keeps the opponent from properly protecting all his critical points by constantly shifting position. I think Skirmish is one of the most illogical mechanics ever though.

Shades of Gray
2008-03-22, 09:04 AM
Thanks, the DM have complete scoundrel so we can work out something.

About equipments, anything good?

You'll want a composite longbow, with a strength bonus that can allow your max. For armor, I'd say studded leather until you can afford a chain shirt. You'll want a back-up melee weapon, I'd say shortsword or longsword. You should enchant your bow first, then your armor.

For magic items, boots of flying can be useful, you may have to settle on boots of striding and springing early on. Gloves of Dexterity should also be top priority, and if your strength is low, belt of strength.

For race, either elf (if your DM has complete warrior, ask if you can lose rapier proficiency and take thinblade). Human is a general all-rounder.

cupkeyk
2008-03-22, 10:01 AM
splitting bow from champions of ruin. go whispergnome from races of stone. dump wis and take champion of nature. yeah

woc33
2008-03-22, 02:11 PM
The only way skirmish makes "sense," is if you apply it only to melee weapons, and remove the "precision damage" moniker. Moving never makes you more accurate, but if you do it right, it does add the momentum of your entire body (not just your weapon itself) to a melee-weapon swing.

All it adds to a ranged weapon is wild innaccuracy. Ten times so for a bow.

From personal experience i find this statement wrong.

I do martial arts and the way I fight focuses mainly on movement and agility, i move around my foe and find different angles of attack. From that I learned that moving around (and being dynamic) gives you more angles of attack (and uncovers your opponents defenses), makes it harder for the opponent to defend himself against an incoming attack (the more you move the harder it is for the opponent to spot where your attack would come from), it makes you harder to hit because the opponent is having a hard time locating weak spots while you move.

I think that skrimish represents it quite well, it's an ability used by a combatant who is expert of this kind of combat. That movement is not a normal movement, it's a percisely thought and perfected kind of movement that makes it easier for the scout to spot weak spots in his opponent's defense while decreasing his opponent chance of touching him.

I know my experience, which is reflected here, comes from a viewpoint of a martial artist (and not from ranged combat), and that my view is of someone who does melee combat, and not ranged. But these describe this type of movement in ranged combat just as well as they describe melee combat, because it's specific to the type of movement, and not the type of combat.