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CountD
2008-03-20, 10:53 PM
Alright, so coming up soon I'll be engaging in a good party versus evil party campaign, and I'm supposed to create an evil aligned level 10 character. I've got a few ideas floating around, but a couple of them involve Prestige Classes I've never encountered in my career of DnD (Which is not much to speak of. I'm a relatively new player).

I was wondering about the value of multiclassing with either the Assassin or Duelist prestige classes. I've never come across a Duelist in the campaigns I've played save for an NPC who never saw combat, and as for the Assassin class we did meet up with one who managed to surprise us and killed our wizard with a Death Attack, but the party was able to drop him before we really saw his abilities.

So anyway, my question is this: Are the Duelist or Assassin classes, despite looking good on paper, worth multiclassing with melee oriented base classes, or would I be better off with something else?

Oh, and the only rule here is that I can only take basic and prestige classes from the Core rules, and not any of the supplements.

Nohwl
2008-03-20, 11:02 PM
they dont look too bad to me, but ive never played either in a game. i prefer casters.

FlyMolo
2008-03-20, 11:06 PM
Dunno about duelist, but Assassin is sometimes regarded as kind of a pointless PrC, especially in higher levels.

If you're going to go a slightly different route, think PsyWar 5/War mind 5, with spiked chain and pointy black armor. Pick up PA, great cleave and other goodies.

Zincorium
2008-03-20, 11:14 PM
Assassin is really a solo class for when you're likely to face a single opponent. It really isn't designed well for a PC. Duelist is... pretty much the weakest thing you can do with a fighter in core. There are a few tricks for it, but they're not accessible to you.

Core melee...

Dragon disciple can actually be pretty fun, and while it's only got medium BAB, the inherent bonus to strength makes up for that while giving you an edge in damage. It might theoretically take away from your power attack potential, but you're almost never going to be power attacking for full anyway. As for the arcane casting, remember that several of the good meleer spells don't have somatic components, meaning you can cast them in full plate without a chance of failure. True strike + power attack? Good for attacking an opponent you'd probably miss otherwise and still need to make it count. Cast it before charging for best effect.

Ascension
2008-03-20, 11:30 PM
Duelist would be fine if it allowed you to wear light armor.

Did I mention it doesn't allow you to wear armor?

It's too bad you can't go with the splatbook option. Swashbuckler from Complete Warrior is basically a fixed, twenty-level version of duelist, if that's the sort of fighter you want to build. Were I in an evil party I'd love to go swashbuckler/rogue (with daring outlaw) -> dishonorable dread pirate (assuming there's a 10000 gp ship to shanghai somewhere nearby...), but neither you nor I have that option available.

I'd probably follow Zincorium's advice and go dragon disciple.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-21, 08:33 PM
Swashbuckler / Duelist (maybe with a few levels of Fighter and/or Scout) kicks ass. Int synergy for damage and AC? Yes please. You can boost your AC (when fighting defensively) up into the 60s by level 20, perfectly "by the books," and with a feat like Robilar's Gambit, enemies will want to just get away from you rather than try to attack you. You need the Scout levels for Uncanny Dodge, or else you'll be squished flat the moment you're flat-footed, though.

Who needs armor? (Well, other than bracers of armor.)

Zincorium
2008-03-21, 08:57 PM
Swashbuckler / Duelist (maybe with a few levels of Fighter and/or Scout) kicks ass. Int synergy for damage and AC? Yes please. You can boost your AC (when fighting defensively) up into the 60s by level 20, perfectly "by the books," and with a feat like Robilar's Gambit, enemies will want to just get away from you rather than try to attack you. You need the Scout levels for Uncanny Dodge, or else you'll be squished flat the moment you're flat-footed, though.

Who needs armor? (Well, other than bracers of armor.)

It's not a bad combo outside of core. Unfortunately, those three words matter.

On a side note, the build you gave has a significant problem in that it cannot perform the aggressive, offensively based role that barbarians and fighters have. You will do very well in a duel, against small numbers of melee opponents, as you should with a class name like duelist. But when you make the smart option to lock spears, shoot spells and arrows, and just generally not play by the rules you're trying to set, you're not going to shine.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-21, 10:03 PM
Alright, so coming up soon I'll be engaging in a good party versus evil party campaign, and I'm supposed to create an evil aligned level 10 character. I've got a few ideas floating around, but a couple of them involve Prestige Classes I've never encountered in my career of DnD (Which is not much to speak of. I'm a relatively new player).

I was wondering about the value of multiclassing with either the Assassin or Duelist prestige classes. I've never come across a Duelist in the campaigns I've played save for an NPC who never saw combat, and as for the Assassin class we did meet up with one who managed to surprise us and killed our wizard with a Death Attack, but the party was able to drop him before we really saw his abilities.

So anyway, my question is this: Are the Duelist or Assassin classes, despite looking good on paper, worth multiclassing with melee oriented base classes, or would I be better off with something else?

Oh, and the only rule here is that I can only take basic and prestige classes from the Core rules, and not any of the supplements.

The Core Fighter, Barbarian, and Ranger are starting to have severe issues at around the level you're facing - 10th - relative to the casters. For mechanical power at this level, you're looking at a Cleric or Druid at the top of the heap (Wizard comes into his own at around 15th or so, relative to a CoDZilla build) - especially if you're wanting to mix it up in melee.

Druid-Zilla
For the Druid, it's Wildshape into a combat form (sticking completely to Core, it's a deinonychus for medium-restricted areas, megaraptor or dire lion for Large-accessable areas).
Feats you'll want:
Natural Spell (so you don't have to de-wild shape to cast) (6th level feat)
Multiattack (reduces attack penalties for those secondary natural weapons) (9th level feat)
Quicken Spell (1st level feat; even though you can't use it at 1st level, you still qualify for it, oddly).
Power Attack (3rd level feat).
Extend Spell if you've got a free feat slot (that is, if you're human, but I recommend going Dwarf with this build for the Con bonus, Darkvision, and +2 racial save bonus vs. most the things you'll need to save against in a day).

Items you'll want:
Wilding armor, +Con item, wands of Cure Light Wounds for when you need to heal up out of combat, scrolls of the spells that are rarely needful, but when you need them, you need them now. A Bead of Karma (+4 caster level!). Other items to taste.

Stat Priority:
Con, Wis. Rest don't matter much. You won't be casting many of the save-or spells with a melee Druid, so the Wisdom just needs to be high enough that you can cast your alotment of spells. Constitution gets you your Hit Points, which you need if you're going to melee. The rest is gravy for a Druid-10.

Tactics:
Morning Preparation:
Invoke Bead of Karma (+4 caster level for 10 minutes
Wildshape
Cast Greater Magic Fang on each of your natural weapons (four castings, generally; lasts 14 hours, you get +3 attack/damage on each one for the duration)
Cast Barkskin on yourself (lasts 140 minutes; 280, if extended; +5 Enhancement to natural armor for the duration)
Repeat for your animal companion if you choose to have one at this level. If you have one, for raw combat prowess, you want the Ape. Others are still very useful, but don't go above Large, and if you've got a Large animal companion, make sure to keep Reduce Animal prepared (so you can bring your AC into medium-restricted areas with you).

In combat, you can just wade in against the "normal" encounters (mooks, things of about your CR or less) and slug it out with natural weaponry. Against tougher encounters, you'll want some kind of buff, debuff, or Combat Control spell initially (lots to choose from), then slug it out.

I'll leave the Cleric to someone else.