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quiet1mi
2008-03-20, 11:36 PM
As a Dm i want to challenge my party with interesting things... some things could be a wight or a vampire or a succubus....

my problem is all these things can cause level loss and i don't want to give them the metaphorical "finger" from behind the screen because i will have no more play group....

so in other words how do i, as a Dm, handle the in game affects of potentially losing levels

here is the srd ruling....

ENERGY DRAIN AND NEGATIVE LEVELS

Some horrible creatures, especially undead monsters, possess a fearsome supernatural ability to drain levels from those they strike in combat. The creature making an energy drain attack draws a portion of its victim’s life force from her. Most energy drain attacks require a successful melee attack roll—mere physical contact is not enough. Each successful energy drain attack bestows one or more negative levels on the opponent. A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained.

–1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
–1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
–5 hit points.
–1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Negative levels remain for 24 hours or until removed with a spell, such as restoration. After 24 hours, the afflicted creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 attacker’s HD + attacker’s Cha modifier). (The DC is provided in the attacker’s description.) If the saving throw succeeds, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. The afflicted creature makes a separate saving throw for each negative level it has gained. If the save fails, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one.
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect).


so with that in mind is there anything the players can do to avoid the chance of losing levels (potentially depending how a fight goes, several levels)

Nohwl
2008-03-20, 11:40 PM
have the players kill it quickly, lie about rolls on your attacks, or if its only one attack that can give negative levels, dont use it.

quiet1mi
2008-03-20, 11:42 PM
will the spell restoration or greater restoration save a player from the potential level loss?

MeklorIlavator
2008-03-20, 11:46 PM
will the spell restoration or greater restoration save a player from the potential level loss?


Restoration

Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 4, Pal 4 Components: V, S, M

This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. A character who has a level restored by restoration has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level.

Restoration cures all temporary ability damage, and it restores all points permanently drained from a single ability score (your choice if more than one is drained). It also eliminates any fatigue or exhaustion suffered by the target.

Restoration does not restore levels or Constitution points lost due to death.

Material Component: Diamond dust worth 100 gp that is sprinkled over the target.
Restoration, Greater

Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 7 Components: V, S, XP Casting Time: 10 minutes

This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it dispels all negative levels afflicting the healed creature. This effect also reverses level drains by a force or creature, restoring the creature to the highest level it had previously attained. The drained levels are restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is no more than one week per caster level.

Greater restoration also dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature’s abilities, cures all temporary ability damage, and restores all points permanently drained from all ability scores. It also eliminates fatigue and exhaustion, and removes all forms of insanity, confusion, and similar mental effects. Greater restoration does not restore levels or Constitution points lost due to death.

XP Cost: 500 XP.
I'd say that they would.

quiet1mi
2008-03-20, 11:48 PM
ahhhh.... now I can rest easy knowing i can through a vampire,wight, or a succubus with little effect on the long-term game

MeklorIlavator
2008-03-20, 11:51 PM
ahhhh.... now I can rest easy knowing i can through a vampire,wight, or a succubus with little effect on the long-term game

Just make sure that you have a few bags of diamonds/diamond dust in the loot, or you may have some problems.

Douglas
2008-03-21, 09:33 AM
Scrolls of Restoration might be a better idea. You need to make sure they have access to one copy of the spell per affected party member within 24 hours of the encounter, and depending on the party cleric to cast it may not work - each negative level takes away one spell slot, so if the party is 7th or 8th level and the cleric gets a few negative levels, he may not have any 4th level slots left to cast the spell with.

Or you could just make sure a sufficiently high level NPC cleric is in a nearby town (reachable before the save comes up) and willing to heal everyone in exchange for a sufficiently large donation.

Keld Denar
2008-03-21, 09:48 AM
Death Ward prevents negative energy effects such as death effects, negative energy damage, ability damage due to negative energy, and negative level gain. Its available several ways. The most common way is casting the 4th level cleric spell of the same name. This has a decent duration and grants total immunity. Another is the Death Ward armor enhancement (+1 MIC). This activates once to protect the wearer from a single encounter with negative energy. This can buy a character an extra round to buff with a Death Ward spell. The third is the Soulfire armor enhancement. Its expensive (+4 equiv) from a source I don't remember (A&E Guide?) and gives permanant Death Ward.

Alternately, if a player does aquire negative levels, his party can help him remove them after 24 hours. A few well timed castings of Bears Endurance, Conviction, and Guidance can boost saves up to a decent level, making it likely that the character saves. Most neg levels have a fairly low DC (around 17ish) so giving a +5ish from those spells on top of a characters fort save should give about a 60-70% chance to save.

Blanks
2008-03-21, 10:23 AM
The problem with restoration is that it will be the cleric who pays XP for the entire group.


My solution has always been not to use leveldraining - its simply too aggravating for a player to lose levels.
I have been toying with the idea of using the monsters, only instead of levels they drain XP, say 250 a hit or maybe 30 xp/point of damage dealt ?

Keld Denar
2008-03-21, 10:30 AM
The problem with restoration is that it will be the cleric who pays XP for the entire group.

Regular restoration (4th level) has no xp cost and dispels negative levels just fine. Greater Restoration is a bit of overkill if you are just purging a couple negative levels.



My solution has always been not to use leveldraining - its simply too aggravating for a player to lose levels.
I have been toying with the idea of using the monsters, only instead of levels they drain XP, say 250 a hit or maybe 30 xp/point of damage dealt ?

Dear lord...this would be an accounting nightmare. Its also more permanant, since negative levels can be cured. It also severely hurts the frontlines, since they tend to soak the most negative levels AND have the fort save to rectify them the next day.

TomTheRat
2008-03-21, 10:38 AM
ahhhh.... now I can rest easy knowing i can through a vampire,wight, or a succubus with little effect on the long-term game

Thats a complete lie.

Have one of your PCs be 500 xps away from level 8, be level drained, be restored and then be 1 xp into level 7. Then he gets xps until he's 1000 xps away from level 8, then he gets level drained again, and after the restoration he's 1 xp into level 7 again.

These are not trivial losses. Also, I'm not bitter about taking 6 months to go from level 7 to 8 in the ToEE, no I'm not.

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-21, 10:43 AM
I didn't think that level drain caused Exp loss (unless I just misread the description).

Keld Denar
2008-03-21, 10:50 AM
Thats a complete lie.

Have one of your PCs be 500 xps away from level 8, be level drained, be restored and then be 1 xp into level 7. Then he gets xps until he's 1000 xps away from level 8, then he gets level drained again, and after the restoration he's 1 xp into level 7 again.

These are not trivial losses. Also, I'm not bitter about taking 6 months to go from level 7 to 8 in the ToEE, no I'm not.

Getting restored after actually losing the level puts you at the midway point between the 2 levels, not at 1 xp into the level. Its better than nothing.

Also, the actual loss of the level results in having had a negative level for 24 hours without receiving a Restoration and THEN failing a fortitude save. If your party couldn't help you out at least get a good shot at making the save, then that's pretty poor of them.

TomTheRat
2008-03-21, 10:51 AM
"A character who has a level restored by restoration has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level."

From the SRD.

And if you're not a high Fort class, and you have to make a DC 16 or 17 Fort save, you're more likely than not failing that save.

MeklorIlavator
2008-03-21, 10:54 AM
If that's the case, then perhaps it would be better to stay with negative level effects, as I don't believe that those carry any long term significance.

TomTheRat
2008-03-21, 10:59 AM
The insane thing, is that as a level 5 rogue/level 2 thief-acrobat, I had a total Fort save of +1. I get 2 negative levels, and that save becomes -1, when I only got the +1 to Fort at level 3 or whatever. The whole system is complete madness.

edit: the save to resist permanently losing a level, I should say.

Douglas
2008-03-21, 11:05 AM
Thats a complete lie.

Have one of your PCs be 500 xps away from level 8, be level drained, be restored and then be 1 xp into level 7. Then he gets xps until he's 1000 xps away from level 8, then he gets level drained again, and after the restoration he's 1 xp into level 7 again.

These are not trivial losses. Also, I'm not bitter about taking 6 months to go from level 7 to 8 in the ToEE, no I'm not.
As long as the Restoration happens within 24 hours, there is no xp loss whatsoever because the negative levels don't get the chance to become permanent level loss.

Koga
2008-03-21, 11:12 AM
I've considerd fiddeling around with permanent stat and level drains, look at the spell bestow curse.

Bestow Curse:
You place a curse on the subject. Choose one of the following three effects.

* -6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1).
* -4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.
* Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.


Not only is this really mean to your players, but it's only a level 3 (cleric) and 4 (sorcerer/wizard) spell!


I could imagine them having one effect at a time.
-4 penalty to attack rolls.
-4 to saving throws.
-4 to skillchecks.
-4 caster level. (Not actual level)
-4 HP
-4 AC


And if you don't want it to be permanent but still long-lasting, you can always make it last for 24 hours for every failed will save.

Chronos
2008-03-21, 12:27 PM
Negative levels are a lot less harsh than save-or-die effects, which a lot of monsters also have. With the save-or-die, you make a Fort save right away, and if you fail, you're out of the battle, it costs diamonds to get you back, and even when you come back, you lose a level. With the negative levels, you make the Fort save tomorrow, after you've had a chance to buff up with Protection from Evil, Bear's Endurance, and Guidance, you're still in the battle no matter what, and if you want, you can spend some diamonds to remove the risk entirely.