Any tweaking you'd do to this build?

[Talya]

Looking at a Goliath Archer, using ranger/swordsage, with the zen archery feat to get the nice wisdom synergy. Starting level 7, but i think i get to buy off my Level Adjustment.

I'm looking for flavor more than cheese. I want a tiger claw/stone dragon build, with bits of setting sun.

I want the largest bow she can carry, hence the sub-optimal greatbow proficiency (2d8 on a bow. The woman is practically firing fenceposts, spears, small trees with the thing.)

DM said wealth by level, but not including the level adjustment (which I think he's letting me buy off to start.) 50 point buy. (!)

Character fluff not yet filled in, only crunch. Thoughts?
http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=10326

[RTGoodman]

Well, for an archer, you certainly have a low Dex. Maybe drop Str a little and pump Dex?

If you're DM allows homebrewed stuff, Fax here created a new martial discipline called "Falling Star" based on ranged combat. It's Swordsage friendly, and you can the maneuvers for it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707).

[Chronicled]

Well, for an archer, you certainly have a low Dex. Maybe drop Str a little and pump Dex?

Zen Archery allows Wis to substitute for Dex for ranged attack roll bonus.

[Talya]

Zen Archery allows Wis to substitute for Dex for ranged attack roll bonus.

What he said. This is a wisdom-to-hit archer.

[RTGoodman]

Oops, nevermind. I was thinking for some reason that Zen Archery let you add your Wis to damage, not attack.

Carry on. :smallredface:

[Chronicled]

And I don't see any obvious changes on my end character-wise. Are you done buying gear?

[Talya]

And I don't see any obvious changes on my end character-wise. Are you done buying gear?

Kindof out of money for big stuff. That bow was expensive...I suppose she's still more dangerous in melee than at range, but by the time something closes with her, they're dead. Still, large greatsword in single-standard action strikes is very nice. Need to get her power attack, eventually.

[TheSteelRat]

If you're looking for cheese, I believe there's something like "Elvencraft" Long & Short Bows that can be used as a Quarterstaff or Club in melee if the opponent gets too close, but magical enchantments have to be purchased separately for melee/ranged use, so that'll add to the cost, but make it focus more on one single weapon. I believe it was only +300 or +400 gold to the cost too.

[Chronicled]

Looks like you pulled the Cold Iron off the greatsword; that ought to help a lot with gear buying.

There's a very cheap weapon crystal in the MIC that lets you quickdraw the weapon. Seems like the thing to have for your greatsword (heck, for the bow too).

I don't think shoring up your hide/MS with the cloak/boots is a good expenditure of funds. If you were maxing out the skills for sneaking, then sure. It seems like that 5k could do a lot better things for you, though. 1k towards +1 for all saves is my usual first stop.

[Talya]

Looks like you pulled the Cold Iron off the greatsword; that ought to help a lot with gear buying.

There's a very cheap weapon crystal in the MIC that lets you quickdraw the weapon. Seems like the thing to have for your greatsword (heck, for the bow too).

I don't think shoring up your hide/MS with the cloak/boots is a good expenditure of funds. If you were maxing out the skills for sneaking, then sure. It seems like that 5k could do a lot better things for you, though. 1k towards +1 for all saves is my usual first stop.

Perhaps you're right there...i hate the idea of a ranger that can't sneak, but this one really doesn't need to.

And yes, it seems a number of stone dragon strikes ignore DR, so the cold iron felt like a waste.

Any maneuvers which benefit ranged that you've noticed? I notice dancing mongoose doesn't specify melee only in the description, so that's a free attack at later levels.

[Chronicled]

Perhaps you're right there...i hate the idea of a ranger that can't sneak, but this one really doesn't need to.

And yes, it seems a number of stone dragon strikes ignore DR, so the cold iron felt like a waste.

Any maneuvers which benefit ranged that you've noticed? I notice dancing mongoose doesn't specify melee only in the description, so that's a free attack at later levels.

What I mean is, either go all out for the sneaking, or ignore it. When you try to be decent at everything, you end up being... a monk.

Good call with the Stone Dragon use.

I haven't checked out ranged applications for ToB, ever. White Raven Tactics before the FAQ ruling, of course, and Iron Heart Surge, but that's not applicable to you.

Why Ranger 3/Swordsage 3? Seems that Ranger 2/Swordsage 2/Ranger 2/Swordsage x would be better, with initiator level and all.

[Talya]

What I mean is, either go all out for the sneaking, or ignore it. When you try to be decent at everything, you end up being... a monk.


Heh.


Why Ranger 3/Swordsage 3? Seems that Ranger 2/Swordsage 2/Ranger 2/Swordsage x would be better, with initiator level and all.

Well, i can't separate them much or I suffer an xp penalty (favored class is Barbarian.)

Anyway, the actual order they were taken in: Ranger 2/Swordsage 2/Ranger 1/Swordsage 1.

I'd be ranger 4/swordsage 2, but that would suddenly invoke the xp penalty.

[Talya]

Can't find the augmentation crystal that adds quickdraw, btw...

edit: nevermind. found it.

[Chronicled]

Anyway, the actual order they were taken in: Ranger 2/Swordsage 2/Ranger 1/Swordsage 1.

That works, then.

xp penalties... :smallyuk: The very concept offends me. *sniff*

[Chronicled]

Can't find the augmentation crystal that adds quickdraw, btw...

edit: nevermind. found it.

Darn, I'd just found it myself. Somehow, I didn't spot it until going to the index of weapons crystals. It must be its placement on the page.

So, yeah, 300 gp is probably worth it to have on both. Or for 600 gp, put 1 point of energy damage (acid/cold/electricity/fire) on the bow's attacks.

[Talya]

Okay, after dropping the elvenkind items and picking up a ring of resistance and a couple least Augment crystals of returning, i'm left with 3000 gold.

[Chronicled]

Handy Haversack? Maybe not, with your Str, but that's the first thing that popped into my mind.

[Talya]

I'd considered the same thing (because it's standard fare for my usual dex-based characters or bard/sorceror), but didn't get it for the same reason...ridiculously high strength.

[The_Snark]

Later on, Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still (not that you'd be able to get that without dropping Ranger and grabbing quite a bit of Diamond Mind) will both work with ranged weapons. Given the multiclassing, it's likely to be much later on, unfortunately, but ah well. Most offensive boosts don't work with ranged attacks, sadly, but counters will do fine, and strikes give you some backup melee capability.

Looks pretty nice, and I'll second trying to free up a thousand for a cloak of resistance. Saves, I find, are something that always, always come up in games, and you can never go wrong buying one.

Oh, I see you have. Ring of Sustenance, perhaps, if you have leftover gold? Your Spot and Listen modifiers are good enough to make it worth it to help keep watch, and you don't need to worry about 8 hours' rest to regain spells.

[Chronicled]

Healing Belt = YES. Also, a wand of CLW probably wouldn't hurt. I always love Quall's Feather Token: Tree; there's so much you can do with a couple of those. Stock up on mundane items, too.

I'd agree with the Ring of Sustenance, but you don't have darkvision.

[Diamondeye]

I'm going to go against the grain here and say +1 to saves is not really necessary. With a 50 pt buy and Ranger/Swordsage you've got at least 1 class with a strong save in both Fort and Will, and reflex you've got 2. You've also got strong ability modifiers to saves in both Will and Fort, and even a +1 to reflex, so the additional +1 is shouldn't be that important.

I'd try to strip a point here and there out of a few other skills and have some points in Hide and Move Silently, and then augment them with the stealth items you had to begin with. I'm not buying into the "you have to ahve it maxed or its not useful" camp; I don't think DCs are consistently so high in that campaign that unmaxed skills would be useless, and if we were in a campaign like that I'd say the DCs are too high.

[Triaxx]

If you do get a ring of Sustenance, you can supplement lack of darkvision with a helm/ring of infravision. Even if you have something else for the ring slot, you only need infravision at night.

[SilverSheriff]

where can I find a source on Zen Archery?

[playswithfire]

For maneuvers, if Falling Star is no good, someone on the CharOp board compiled a decent list for archers. Spoilered for length



The following martial stances are at least somewhat useful for ranged combatants
Desert Wind
Flames Blessing
Holocaust Cloak
Rising Pheonix

Devoted Spirit
Aura of Perfect Order [law]
Aura of Triumph [good] *6
Aura of Tyranny [Evil]
Immortal Fortitude

Diamond Mind
Hearing the Air
Pearl of Black Doubt
Stance of Alacrity
Stance of Clarity

Iron Heart
Absolute Steel
Supreme Blade Parry

Setting Sun
Ghostly Defense
Giant Killing Style
Shifting Defense
Step of the Wind

Shadow Hand
Assassins Stance
Balance on the Sky *7
Child of Shadow
Dance of the Spider *7
Step of the Dancing Moth

Stone Dragon
Giants Stance
Stonefoot Stance
Strenth of Stone
Roots of the mountain

Tiger Claw
Blood in the Water
Hunters Sense
Leaping Dragon Stance

White Raven
Bolstering Voice
Leading the Charge
Press the Advantage
Swarm Tactics

The following martial maneuvers do not require melee attacks
Desert Wind
Blistering Flourish
Distracting Ember
Dragons Flame
Fan the Flames
Fire Repost ****
Fire Snake *****
Hatchlings Flame
Inferno Blast
Leaping Flame
Ring of Fire
Wind Stride
Wyrm's Flame
Zypher Dance

Devoted Spirit
Shield Block ***

Diamond Mind
Action Before Thought
Diamond Defense
Mind over body
Moment of Alacrity
Quicksilver Motion
*Time Stands Still

Iron Heart
Iron Heart Endurance
Iron Heart Focus
Iron Heart Surge

Setting Sun
Baffling Defence
Feigned Opening *6
Mirrored Pursuit
Scorpion Parry
Stalking Shadow

Shadow Hand
Cloak of Deception
One With Shadow
Shadow Blink
Shadow Garrote
Shadow Jaunt
Shadow Noose
Shadow Stride

Stone Dragon
*Adamantine Bones
Boulder Roll
*EarthStrike Quake
Mountain Avalanche

Tiger Claw
**Dancing Mongoose
Fountain of Blood
**Raging Mongoose
Sudden Leap

White Raven
Lions Roar
Order Forged From Chaos
White Raven Tactics

* strikes that work with ranged weapons
** boosts that grant extra attacks that work with ranged weapons
*** debatable: only when using a bluckler or shield. It does not specificy if you must be recieving the shields bonus yourself, so with a loose interperetation a bow user could use this with a buckler.
**** Debatable: While you do make a melee touch attack, it does not specify if this is a weapon related attack or not.
***** Broken: Duration is instantanious, but the firesnake moves at 60ft per round? What action is it to control a fire snake? none is indicated. How many firesnakes can one control at once? no limit is specified? What is to stop me from having nigh infinate firesnakes running around? and dealing 6d6 damage to everything in sight (In this case evasion is actually bad because if I deal no damage on a successful reflex save the fire snake can keep passing through your square until you fail a save.) Can a target he stuck by different fire snakes in the same round? if so we are looking at an infinate damage loop. I recommend as a houserul a duration of concentration, IE 1 standard action per round to mantain or a 5 round effect limit (like salamander charge).
*6 partial: while you don't benifit, a melee using ally can.
*7 while using a 1 handed ranged weapon.

[AmberVael]

where can I find a source on Zen Archery?
Complete Warrior. Alternately, look here. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Zen_Archery,CW)

There is one little item I found recently that is relatively low in cost, but fairly handy at lower levels.
Cloak of Elemental Protection, Magic Item Compendium, page 87.
Once per day you can immediately negate 10 of an energy attack, pretty much.

[Talya]

you can supplement lack of darkvision with a helm/ring of infravision.

I can find no such item...

[Keld Denar]

Talya, you should be all set up to take levels in Horizon Walker. 1st level gets you Darkvision 60, 2nd level makes you immunity to fatigue, 3rd-5th give you some static bonuses to spot/listen/hide/movesilent blah but 6th level gets you Dim Door every 1d4 rounds. By that level, you should have enough HD to take Quicken Spell Like Ability (MMI) so that you can full attack, then Dim Door out of reach pretty often. Thats nice. Doesn't add anything to your IL really, but a nice feature none-the-less. If you keep taking levels, you can pick up Tremorsense and immunity to all aligned attacks (blasphemy!), which is pretty worth it. Just an option for ya.

[Talya]

Talya, you should be all set up to take levels in Horizon Walker.

Very interesting...although...I'm not sure it fits. The terrain that best fits her style adds among the least of benefit for her...

[Keld Denar]

Very interesting...although...I'm not sure it fits. The terrain that best fits her style adds among the least of benefit for her...

Eh, but the ability to *bamf* around the battlefield (and off the battlefield...watch the movie Jumper for ideas) is just fun. Never consent to walk ever again, instead choosing to Dim Door as your primary mode of movement while scorning lesser mortals who are required to use their legs for locomotion.

[Talya]

Eh, but the ability to *bamf* around the battlefield (and off the battlefield...watch the movie Jumper for ideas) is just fun. Never consent to walk ever again, instead choosing to Dim Door as your primary mode of movement while scorning lesser mortals who are required to use their legs for locomotion.

I'm a goliath wilderness ranger, not Nightcrawler.

It's tempting to dip a level for darkvision, though. Probably not worth a level if an item exists that can do the same.

[SamTheCleric]

A one level dip that you autmatically qualify for as a ranger isn't a bad choice. Ranger 6/Horizon Walker 1 wouldnt change your build -too- much.

... Though I do want to make a nightcrawler esque TWF now.

[Keld Denar]

Unfortunately, you don't get Planar Masteries until level 6 as a HW. You have to suffer through 5 levels of mediocre abilities to get to the cool stuff like Dim Door and Tremorsense. The only redeaming thing about trudging through those levels is that they are full BAB and the class gives a decent number of skill points.

[Darrin]

Looking at a Goliath Archer, using ranger/swordsage, with the zen archery feat to get the nice wisdom synergy. Starting level 7, but i think i get to buy off my Level Adjustment.

I'm looking for flavor more than cheese. I want a tiger claw/stone dragon build, with bits of setting sun.

Hmm... you may want a little Diamond Mind for counters/mobility.

Stances:

Hmmm... Stonefoot Stance for an archer? You're probably going to need to move more than 5', particularly if you're using Multishot. Child of Shadow (SH1) would work better for a mobile archer, and pairs up nicely with Sudden Leap: 5' step, jump 5', full attack w/ concealment.

Hunter's Sense I normally would advise against as more fluff than useful, but it fits your character, gives you bonuses on tracking, and can be used to qualify for Sudden Leap.

Maneuvers:

Charging Minotaur? For an archery build? And why would you be charging into melee?
Stone Bones/Mighty Throw/Rapid Wolf Strike: Again, your archer is standing in melee range why, exactly?
Wind Stride: Good pick.
Sudden Leap: Extra movement = Yes please!
Mountain Hammer: All-Purpose Anti-DR/Hardness maneuver. Too useful, even if it's only melee.
Baffling Defense Counter: Good. Looks like it may work against ranged attacks, too.

You might want to consider replacing some of those strikes with:

Moment of Perfect Mind (DM1): SwordSage has good Will saves, but Ranger doesn't.
Counter Charge (SS1): Keeps your archer out of melee.
Cloak of Deception (SH2): Ok, not strictly useful for archery, but since when is invisibility NOT useful?

The only out-and-out obvious ranged maneuvers:

Fan the Flames (DW3)
Shadow Garrote (SH3)
Shadow Noose (SH6)

Work towards Shifting Defense (SS5). That should help keep you out of melee.

Pick up the Travel Devotion when you get a chance. That will allow you to move+full attack for 1 minute, particularly if you can pick up skirmish damage.

[Talya]

{some good advice}

I do plan on being good with that massive 3d6 greatsword she's got as well. But yes, the maneuvers were picked hastily. Of course, diamond mind and shadow hand will require ranks in concentration and hide respectively.

Anyway, I see her more as a type to use archery until something gets close, then bust out the large greatsword and start chopping. I don't see her actively avoiding melee.

[Talya]

Uh....where is the goliath age category chart? I can't find it in Races of Stone.

[Chronicled]

My crystalkeep index doesn't list it either.

[Talya]

Woohoo! Goliaths have darkvision 60' naturally!

No, it's not in the racial description. However, they are monstrous humanoids, who get darkvision 60' unless stated otherwise in the description. As it's left unstated, they get darkvision.

[Proven_Paradox]

I didn't know that about monstrous humanoids either... I suspect your GM may not either, and may take issue with that. I dunno who you're playing with, so that may or may not be an issue.

If your DM isn't cool with that, you might consider allocating some wealth for an item that gives a constant Ebon Eyes effect (SpC level 1 spell; essentially grants darkvision that pierces even magical darkness). This could go in the usually-neglected eyes slot. Spell level 1, caster level 1, duration 10 min/level. So, 1 x 1 x 2000 x 1.5 = 3000 gp for the item according to the custom item table. Pretty cheap, and a good investment, especially for an archer, methinks. That said, you've got to convince your GM to let you have custom items, and it might be easier to point out the monstrous humanoid = darkvision point.

And the items gives you a good excuse to wear sunglasses at night!

[Talya]

What do you guys think of this:

Drop ranger animal companion at 4, instead take the "distracting attack" variant in the PHBII.

Then...replace the animal companion with a wild cohort (better than the ranger's half level thing anyway, even if it's not as good as a druid.)

For stylistic reasons, I'm going to try to design a small wildcat (a Lynx, small halfling-sized wildcat, huge paws, big ears.) It'd look like a kitten next to a goliath.

By the way, anybody ever notice that Shaquille O'neal falls into the height/weight range for Goliaths? He's on the short end of the scale, but he's also heavier than most of them.

[Proven_Paradox]

Distracting shot is very good, especially considering how not good ranger animal companions are. Are you talking about Leadership or something for the wild cohort? I don't think you can replace the animal companion twice...

[Talya]

Wild Cohort. Rangers and druids can take them in addition to their companion, so there's no reason they couldn't take it if they replaced their companion.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a

[Triaxx]

Depending on what you want as your FE, I'd say take Solitary Hunter instead. But it depends on party composition. If you have one or two rogues, or fighters, distracting attack is probably better.

I hate when I find out the book I was looking at was an edition behind. You don't need it now though, so it's not a problem.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Depending on the plans for this PC in a campaign (short versus long term) I might consider dropping one Swordage level for a level of Warblade either at level 4 or 5 in the PC leveling.

[Talya]

I'd say take Solitary Hunter instead.


What's that?

[Talya]

Depending on the plans for this PC in a campaign (short versus long term) I might consider dropping one Swordage level for a level of Warblade either at level 4 or 5 in the PC leveling.

She'll be starting with 21000 experience, she's replacing my other character who is going to leave the party (I've roleplayed myself into a corner. She's not the sort who would be out in the wilderness adventuring with these uncouth, uncivilized ruffians, and the DM isn't giving me a "hook" really to keep her there.) Now, I'll probably be able to take the LA buyoff, so she'll actually be 17,000 experience with no level adjustment.

What would you do with warblade? It would seriously create multiclassing experience issues for me.

[CASTLEMIKE]

My thought was depending on the level your PC will probably be advancing to in future games is that a dip into Warblade could be nice. The level dipped will determine initiator levels for the various clases and if the multiclassing experience point penalty is applied.

At 1st - 4th (WB I (1-2) but the next level the first SS would be I-3 (unless you were interchanging them leveling))

Delaying until 5th level with a dip into WB-1 (WB I-3) or even 6th (multiclassing penalty for a single level before PRCing)

In a short game or campaign where the PC will be PRCing in the future levels that single level penalty shouldn't hurt the PC while providing several more manuevers for combat with the Great Sword with rapid recovery.

Allowing SS to provide some of the more esoteric benefits of the martial adepts.

With the LA buydown your PC should be able to squeak by with 6 levels afterwards if Warblade is taken at 5th or 6th level since only level 6 should be penalized taking Ranger -3.

WB-1 at first loses the PC 8 skill points for picking up +4 hit points (Also could provide known manuevers to the PC for SS prereqs in addition to standard WB manuevers with rapid recovery).

[Chronicled]

I've seen Distracting Shot in action. It is incredibly good. Take it, and love it, and watch your party love it.

I think the lynx/goliath idea is pretty cool too. *Writes down for future theft*

[Talya]

I'd put this in homebrew, but it's applying directly to this character if I use the wild cohort feat.

There is a Serval in Sandstorm, but it's a weaker, one hit die animal. Caracals are significantly bigger and heavier (though still 'small' in D&D terms.) This is in the same range as the wolf, for balance, so I think it fits as a 1st level animal companion/wild cohort, yes?

Long-tailed Lynx (Caracal)
Size/Type: Small Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft, climb 20ft
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +3 dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-tooted 12
Base Attack/Grapple: 1/-3
Attack: Claw +4 (1d4+1)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 (1d4+1), bite -1 (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +7, Climb +3, Hide +11, Move Silently +7, Spot +3, Survival +3*
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Mountains, Forests, Grasslands
Organization: Solitary or Pair
Challenge Rating: 1
Advancement: 3 HD (small); 4-5 HD (medium)


Lynxes receive a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks. They use their Dexterity modifier for Climb checks. In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8.

[Talya]

Hmmm...how much better would this be as a wolf-totem barbarian with the hunter variant for archery combat style and favored enemy?

[Talya]

Okay, I think this is final. I've used quite a number of suggestions above.

I also found a couple flaws I like for this character...they fit her, and used them to give her Wild Cohort (for flavor), and Point Blank Shot (because while ranger combat style feats don't need it, every other archery feat in the game seems to.) I designed the base animal for her cohort from scratch. It should be a level 1 companion with its abilities, but I liked the idea of a stocky powerful SMALL-sized animal with the powerful build feature.

Character Here (http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=10326)

Wild Cohort here (http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=10545)

[Talya]

Muahahaha...my very first round with this new character in the campaign...


Roll ID: 99 Rolls for to hit d20 (1d20): ( 20 ) = 20 + 11 = 31 + 2(stance) - 2(range increment) - 2(rapid shot) = 29 to hit

Roll ID: 100 Rolls for crit confirmation d20 (1d20): ( 17 ) = 17 + 11 + 2 - 2 - 2 = 27 to confirm crit

*CRITICAL X3*
Roll ID: 102 Rolls for 6d8 (6d8): ( 3 6 2 6 1 8 ) = 26 + 18 + 6(favored enemy) = 50 damage

[SamTheCleric]

Wow, nice rolling. :)

[Talya]

Wow, nice rolling. :)

The crits sure look impressive with that bow.

Anyway, the second attack hit as well (rolled a 7, +9. Seems we're up against standard SRD ogres, a 16 hits.) Rolled 2d8 on damage...and both turned up 8, for 24 after bonus and favored enemy. Two ogres, one killed outright, one down to 2 hit points, on a surprise round, from a 500+ foot range.