How To Do Everything (and look Damn Good doing it)?

[Tyrael]

Ahoy, folks. Recently, I discovered Age categories in the PHB, and the bonuses to CHA/INT/WIS, and the INT bonus, IMHO, could be very useful to someone like a Factotum. I'm vaguely kicking around the idea of a do-it-all adventurer, who can go anywhere, be anyone, and do anything, ever. Maybe not do it all WELL, but at least do it.

Ideally, I'm thinking of a 12th-level build, max. Almost nobody I know plays beyond 12th, because balance just gets silly from there on out. Anyway, I'm considering a Doppelganger Factotum/Chameleon, but I'm a little put-off by the Doppelganger's +4 LA (ouch!). I've heard of a Changeling race, are they any good? What do you guys think about Doppelganger vs. Changeling vs. Human for this sort of character concept?

As for classes, I know of Factotum and Chameleon...are there any other jack-of-all-trades classes out there that fit the bill?

[Frosty]

LA +4 is really high. Unless the racials are better than 4 levels of a class, I'd say don't bother. And with jack of all trades, unless your racials are as...versatile and adjustable as the last 4 levels of Chameleon or Facotutum, don't bother. I'd go with Chameleon.

[Zincorium]

Changelings are a very fun race, they get a limited version of the shapeshifting dopplegangers have, but don't have an LA. They also have some fairly nice rogue substitution levels in the races of Eberron book. They don't, technically, qualify for chameleon, but since they're an intermixing of the two races who do, it'd be silly for your DM to exclude them.

Prior to entering chameleon, rogue, ranger, beguiler, or a mix of one of those with something else may be a good alternative to factotum, seeing as the factotum really should remain in that class if they want to do well.

[Level20Commoner]

If you want every skill there is (Iajitsu Focus, Autohypnosis, etc.), then might I suggest Human Factotum 1/Combat Rogue 9/ Exemplar 2. Combat Rogue is the modification from "Unearthed Arcana" which allows you to receive bonus feats instead of sneak attack progression, and with those bonus feats you select open minded, which nets you +5 skill points. With a human character you're looking at 14 + int modifier skills at every even level! The 'Exemplar' you've probably heard of, its the Prc that gives you increased skill in (+4 competence bonus) and ease of use (take '10' even in stressful circumstances) for your existing skills. You character won't be worth much in a fight, but it'll make the party wizard look like a dunce.

[Frosty]

Actually, Changelings *do* qualify. I believe that in the end of the section on Chameleons, there is a footnote saying something about if you are using Races of Eberron, then add Changeling to the list of races that qualify. Even WotC isn't that stupid as to say Changelings don't qualify.

[Chronicled]

Ahoy, folks. Recently, I discovered Age categories in the PHB, and the bonuses to CHA/INT/WIS, and the INT bonus, IMHO, could be very useful to someone like a Factotum. I'm vaguely kicking around the idea of a do-it-all adventurer, who can go anywhere, be anyone, and do anything, ever. Maybe not do it all WELL, but at least do it.

Of your two choices, Changling would be my pick.

If you're going to be messing around with aging bonuses/penalties, might I suggest Kobold? With a feat (either web enhancement or Races of the Dragon), you can avoid all the aging penalties, for +3 to all mental stats.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Take note of something for Doppleganger 4 levels of Racial HD, and +4 LA. So at ECL 12 you'd be a Doppleganger Factotum 1/Chameleon 3.

Human or Changeling is the way to go, all depends on what you want.

That said, I'd think before you accept what "everyone knows" about past ECL 12. D&D is a fun game and doesn't become magically less fun as your character becomes better. Everyone should Seriously play a ECL 13-20 game before they start parroting that stick everywhere. But do it with a good adaptable DM.

[Level20Commoner]

Actually, Changelings *do* qualify. I believe that in the end of the section on Chameleons, there is a footnote saying something about if you are using Races of Eberron, then add Changeling to the list of races that qualify. Even WotC isn't that stupid as to say Changelings don't qualify.

page 116, under Adaptation:
" If you're using the EBERRON Campaign Setting, the chameleon prestige class should be available to changeling player characters as well as humans and doppelgangers. In this case, the Able Learner feat extends to changelings as well."

[Chronos]

Combat Rogue is the modification from "Unearthed Arcana" which allows you to receive bonus feats instead of sneak attack progression, and with those bonus feats you select open minded, which nets you +5 skill points.Except that Combat Rogue specifically gets bonus feats "as a fighter", which means restricted to the fighter list. And Open Minded isn't on that list.

[Tyrael]

Of your two choices, Changling would be my pick.

If you're going to be messing around with aging bonuses/penalties, might I suggest Kobold? With a feat (either web enhancement or Races of the Dragon), you can avoid all the aging penalties, for +3 to all mental stats.

Oooh, what feat is that? Tell me more...

[Chronicled]

The feat is Dragonwrought, from Races of the Dragon. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid; you lose the dragonblood subtype (but retain all other subtypes and your kobold racial traits). Since you're a dragon, you're immune to magic sleep and paralysis. You get 60ft darkvision and low-light vision, and +2 to a skill (dependent on your draconic heritage). And, with the dragon type, you ignore aging penalties--so start at venerable for a +3 to all mental stats.

You have to take it at level 1. It also lets you take the Dragon Wings feat at level 3.

All in all, a VERY good feat.

[Tyrael]

Hmmm. Dragonwrought Kobold Factotum would be....interesting. Very interesting. However, on the off-chance that my party doesn't like kobolds (like my last party didn't), would there be some way to maybe disguise his koboldiness?

The central idea/theme for this character, I guess, is that he acts like a normal elf ranger or human rogue or what-have-you, but can pull surprising and random stuff out of his hat to Save The Day. Toward that end, he needs to fool the party into thinking that he's just a normal character. Unless there's some item that can make him look like a human or something, I don't think Kobold would work for this (although I WILL keep that Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold idea in mind....I always like Kobolds, and it's a very nice bit of synergistic cheese that could be used in future concepts/builds).

What do you guys think about the Chameleon prestige class? Is it any good? Or would such a character be better off going as a pure Factotum?

[Chronicled]

Hat of Disguise. 1800 gp. Look ma, I'm a halfling!
If you make him act like Deekan from NWN, I don't know of anyone with the heart to kill him. :smallwink:

Factotum/Chameleon is, to my knowledge, strictly better than pure Factotum.

[Frosty]

Factotum/Chameleon is, to my knowledge, strictly better than pure Factotum.

That is my first instinct, but has anyone gone thru an actual cost-benefit analysis of both builds?

[Chronicled]

That is my first instinct, but has anyone gone thru an actual cost-benefit analysis of both builds?

Probably; most of the stuff I was looking for recently was pure Factotum optimization, or mixing one with a bit of Warblade. I saw a lot of people recommending Factotum/Chameleon while I was poking about.

More Factotum stuff can be found here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436). Unfortunately, that seems to be the most comprehensive collection available.

[Cute_Riolu]

In what book can Factotum and Chameleon be found?

[SoD]

Factotom-Dungeonscape.
Chameleon-Races of Destiny (I think).

[Level20Commoner]

Except that Combat Rogue specifically gets bonus feats "as a fighter", which means restricted to the fighter list. And Open Minded isn't on that list.

"Combat Minded" maybe?...no...:smallfrown: Dog gone it Chronos, why do you always have to be right?

[Talya]

If you make him act like Deekan from NWN, I don't know of anyone with the heart to kill him. :smallwink:


I repeatedly tried to kill Deekin.

[Irreverent Fool]

Probably; most of the stuff I was looking for recently was pure Factotum optimization, or mixing one with a bit of Warblade. I saw a lot of people recommending Factotum/Chameleon while I was poking about.

More Factotum stuff can be found here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436). Unfortunately, that seems to be the most comprehensive collection available.

Something about this guide troubles me.


...you can grab Able Learner to make ALL skills class skills for the rest of your career, regardless of what other classes you level up in.

ABLE LEARNER DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

[Talya]

ABLE LEARNER DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.


Sortof. Able learner doesn't boost the cap on the classes, but it does reduce the cost of cross class ranks to the same as class ranks, yes?

If you're going to be a jack of all trades, that's just as good as making all skills "class."

[Kioran]

ABLE LEARNER DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

With Factotum, it does. Able Learner is one of the best feat for skillmonkeys, ever.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

That is my first instinct, but has anyone gone thru an actual cost-benefit analysis of both builds?

Chameleon is better for the same reasons as usual:

Casting of all 1-6 spells on any list=teh winzor.

As usual, it comes down to casting.

[Chronicled]

With Factotum, it does. Able Learner is one of the best feat for skillmonkeys, ever.

In fact, Factotum is a great 1 level dip class when combined with Able Learner; if you were worried about making PrC skill requirements, worry no more.

[Crazy Scot]

Here is an idea for you that would truely allow you to play a character that can do anything (with your DM's permission of course). The prestige class that you should look at is called "Illithid Savant" from Savage Species. You need 10 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and you need to be an Illithid (aka Mind Flayer). The problem is that a true Mind Flayer is an ECL 15 monster. If your DM will allow it, you could see about playing a Half-Illithid (+4 LA template from Fiend Folio), but that still requires you to get 7 HD from a class with Know (Arc) as a class skill. The other option that is more of a stretch than that would be to use the Illithid Heritage feats from Complete Psionic. With the use of either "Flaws" from Unearthed Arcana, or the right selection of classes (Illithid Heritage feats can also be chosen when you are granted psionic feats) you could qualify for the "Illithid Savant" PrC after 7th level without a template. The key feats you would need are: Illithid Heritage (the base feat), 4x Illithid Grapple, Illithid Extract, plus one more. This would give you 4 tentacles and the ability to extract brains (the key concept behind the prestige class).

And now for the class (why, IMHO, this is the best PrC ever): Illithid Savant gives you the ability to gain class and racial abilities from a creature whose brain you eat. You can only use one of the abilities listed below with each brain you eat, you don't get to use all of them at once.
At 1st level, you choose a skill that the target had ranks in, you gain an equal number of ranks to the same skill (even if this puts you over the level +3 normal maximum) and this skill is now considered a class skill for you. This does not allow you to put more points into a skill with skill points YOU earn from leveling, but if you eat another brain, you can gain more skill points that way. (Example: say you eat the brains from 5 7th-level rogues with max points in Open Locks. If you choose this skill you would now have 50 ranks in Open Locks, but would use your own ability score modifiers/racial modifiers to determine the final modifier. Open Locks would now be considered a class skill for you, but you couldn't put any more ranks in it from leveling until you reached 48th level.)
At 2nd level, you gain a single feat that the target had, PERMANENTLY! Enough said!
At 3rd level, (or 4th level if I have this wrong in my head, in which case these two are switched), you gain a single class ability from the target. If you choose spellcasting, you must still abide by all restrictions that come with that class's normal spellcasting. Also, you only get one spell of each spell level that the target was capable of casting (not the full spell progression).
At 4th level, (see above) you can get either 2 skills or 2 feats (as above)
At 5th level, you gain a single racial ability from the target (ex: elves' detect secret doors, dwarves' detect unusual stonework, a dragon's breath weapon, etc)
With each level from here on out, you don't get any different abilities, but you can gain the benefits of more abilities saved from each brain you eat (like at 4th level).

I know the restrictions to get into this class are steep, but if you truely want to create a character who can do anything, this is what I would recommend. In fact, I was going to put this under the Gestalt build challenge (for a character who can adventure alone) on the forum here, but my computer went on the fritz and I couldn't upload it in time.

Anyway, use if you wish. Enjoy!

[FinalJustice]

For a completely unrelated question, wouldn't a gelstalt Factotum/Exemplar//Truenamer, or even Factotum//Truenamer for the effect, a reasonably effective way of Truenaming Casting?!

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

For a completely unrelated question, wouldn't a gelstalt Factotum/Exemplar//Truenamer, or even Factotum//Truenamer for the effect, a reasonably effective way of Truenaming Casting?!

Not really, you only get one rank per HD anyway, and now you face things with 1.5 the CR of your HD. Gestalt actually makes Truenaming harder.

Somthing like Marshal/Factotum/Exemplar/Other good sip classes//Truenamer with Item Familiar could manage.

[Tyrael]

Doesn't Factrotum give you ALL skills as class skills? What, then, is the point of picking up Able Learner?

[Kioran]

Doesn't Factrotum give you ALL skills as class skills? What, then, is the point of picking up Able Learner?

To continue having the advantage even when one PrCs or multiclasses out of Factotum, for example......

[Arbitrarity]

Multiclassing and class skills are messed up.

Ok... any class skill you have had before has max ranks cap of HD+3. Without having ever had it as a class skill, max ranks are (HD+3)/2. If a skill you put ranks into is a class skill for the class you take, you get ranks at a 1-1 ratio. If the skill is not a class skill for the class you took that level, you only get 1/2 rank per skill point you put in. Able learner makes all skills gain ranks at 1-1 ratio, even if not class skills for the class you just took. Factotum makes all skills prior class skills, therefore with a max rank cap of HD+3, and with able learner, 1-1 ratio on all skills, which is the same thing as if they were class skills.

[Chronos]

Factotum has all skills as class skills (literally all, including Truenaming and Autohypnosis and Martial Lore and all the rest), so if you have a one-level dip in Factotum, your maximum ranks in any Factotum class skill (that is to say, any skill at all) is character level +3. Able Learner lets you buy cross-class skills at 1 point for 1 rank, but does not change the skill cap (ordinarily (level+3)/2 for cross-class skills). So if you have both Able Learner and at least one Factotum level, you can buy points in any skill on a 1:1 basis (thanks to Able Learner), and your skill cap in every skill is the full level+3 (thanks to Factotum). They're still not technically class skills, but they might as well be.


Chameleon is better for the same reasons as usual:

Casting of all 1-6 spells on any list=teh winzor.

As usual, it comes down to casting.On the other hand, Arcane Dilettante goes up to 7th-level spells, albeit only from the Sorc/Wiz list, and taking Chameleon for long enough to get to the 6th level spells would cut into Factotum enough that they wouldn't hit 7th any more. So it's sort of like the comparison between Mystic Theurge and straight wizard, albeit to a lesser degree. On the other hand, Factotum's most powerful ability is the Cunning Surge, which lets you take extra actions, and that's available at level 8, so you could get that and still max out Chameleon.

And a two-level dip into Chameleon is easily justifiable for that floating bonus feat: Take any item creation feat you want, to let the party's primary spellcasters make almost any item in any book (or do it yourself, if it's a low-level spell or if you have Warlock levels). Take Open Minded, to get five skill points in a different skill every day. If you have divine spellcasting levels, take Customize Domain, to put a wide variety of spells onto your list, and change them every day. If you have prepared arcane casting, take Arcane Disciple, to put any domain you want onto your list for the day. If you have spontaneous arcane casting, take Extra Spell, for those things you don't usually need, but which come up situationally. If you're a psionic character or a warlock, take Expanded Knowledge or Extra Invocation. There are a lot of good options, there.

Oh, and Chameleon is also available online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b) from the Wizards website. So you don't need to run out and buy Races of Destiny.

[GrassyGnoll]

A modest hijack if you'll allow it. What's the fluff on changelings? All I'm getting is "fey touched human". And if you true sight one what does it look like?

[Arbitrarity]

No, that's mythological changelings. Changelings are the result of breeding humans and doppelgagners, then diluting the doppelgagner though many generations. True seeing results in a humanoid creature with white skin, and strange eyes, in my memory.

[Chronicled]

A modest hijack if you'll allow it. What's the fluff on changelings? All I'm getting is "fey touched human". And if you true sight one what does it look like?

They're depicted like this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/82973.jpg) in the MM3.

Like the top fellow in this pic (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/roe_gallery/88213.jpg), and like this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/roe_gallery/88256.jpg) in another, from Races of Eberron.

Here's (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82084.jpg) a pic of one in the Eberron Campaign Setting.

If you go to Wizard's Art Gallery (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ag) and look up most any of the Eberron books, you can find more (and some that are a lot better than the examples above).