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Human Paragon 3
2008-03-21, 03:41 PM
The changeling race is obviously a great one. Here's the question I pose to you: Should this be a LA+1 race? It provides a mechanical advantage that is hard to replicate, and is concievably useful in many situations. It doesn't make you a better fighter or wizard, it doesn't give you bonus sneak attack damage or saving throws, but a +10 on disguise is significant.

Is it too good, or is it situational enough to warrent the +0?

The converse: Do other LA+0 races (except for human) suck? Should elves, dwarves, half orcs etc. be given better powers to bring them up to snuff with the changeling? The designers of 4.0 certainly seemed to think so. What about you?

Chronicled
2008-03-21, 03:43 PM
Changlings give you an ability that is better done by a 1st level spell, or a 1800 gp item. They're on the weaker side of LA +0.

Frosty
2008-03-21, 03:49 PM
Well, Disguide Self is appearance only. Changeling is an actual transofmration, so tactile would be fooled as well. Still it's a very balanced +0 race imo. Weaker than humans and Dwarves certainly.

The roleplaying applications are huge though. For example, given the fact that Changelings can shift genders at will, I bet they have no problems with same-sex marriage at all. :smalltongue: There's also identity crises. Oh dear god, the identity problems could be huge. Can you imagine the mid-life crisis of of Changeling?

Nohwl
2008-03-21, 04:01 PM
+ 10 is good, but unless you plan on using the skill every chance you get, i dont really see the problem with it. if it was +10 to search or spot instead, or anything used extremely often, i think it would be a bit more unfair.

Chronicled
2008-03-21, 04:04 PM
It's worth mentioning that Changlings have access to some of the best racial substitution levels and racial PrCs around.

Frosty
2008-03-21, 04:06 PM
It's pretty much auto-pass when you're disguising yourself as a generic member of another humanoid race. It's when you're specificlly trying to mimic someone that the +10 comes into play.

Iku Rex
2008-03-21, 04:13 PM
Well, Disguide Self is appearance only. Changeling is an actual transofmration, so tactile would be fooled as well. Yes, but you can only transform your own body. That greatly limits its usefulness.

Frosty
2008-03-21, 04:17 PM
For like 500 gold, you can buy a set of clothing that changes according to your whim as well. I forgot what the name of the enchantment is. And magic armor re-sizes, so if you go from waify elf-maiden to burly orc warrior, it's all cool.

The_Snark
2008-03-21, 04:24 PM
Shiftweave is 500 gp, and has five pre-set appearances, which is handy for any changeling; but that change is purely illusory, so if you're changing what you're wearing, you should be sure to keep it minor.

Anyway, changelings definitely don't deserve level adjustment. They get a benefit that has a pretty clear GP value (1,800 gp; they have the advantage of not being illusory, but the disadvantage of being unable to change their clothing's appearance). If you look at the equivalent value of things like dwarven bonuses to saves and free feats (actually, there's no set equivalent to that), they really aren't getting all that much. A clever player can get a lot out of a changeling's racial abilities, true, but it's nothing a clever player couldn't be doing with a hat of disguise, or just with skills.

Admiral Squish
2008-03-21, 04:38 PM
Clothing is Vestament of Many Styles, and it's only 500g for another +2 on your disguise, along with being the only outfit you'll ever need. I have a changeling ninja/monk (for the unarmed strike) who needs no armor, and focuses on diplomacy, disguise, and bluff to infiltrate enemy forces, then sudden-strikes the big bad, and ghost-steps out of there before anyone can stop her.

The secret is to choose classes that don't need that much armor, because no matter how you change size of it, you're still wearing leathers in a probably inappropriate situation.

ColdBrew
2008-03-21, 04:45 PM
The secret is to choose classes that don't need that much armor, because no matter how you change size of it, you're still wearing leathers in a probably inappropriate situation.

For the character who needs discreet protection, glamered armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#glamered) is a worthy investment.

Chronos
2008-03-21, 05:22 PM
Does the race have anything else? Ability score adjustments, bonuses to miscellaneous skills (other than Disguise), etc? At the very least, I would expect a couple of low-use, flavor bonuses along the same lines as gnomes' bonus to alchemy checks.

The_Snark
2008-03-21, 05:24 PM
+2 to Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks, and Speak Language is always a class skill; I believe that's it.

Iku Rex
2008-03-21, 05:31 PM
And magic armor re-sizes,...It does not.

Frosty
2008-03-21, 05:36 PM
You sure? Every one of my games have had that. Remember, it's magic.

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-21, 05:42 PM
Counter question then: Do dopplegangers deserve +4 LA and +4 RHD for slight ability adjustments, sleep/charm immunity, 60' darkvision, and detect thoughts at will? Or should it be less? :smallamused:

Zincorium
2008-03-21, 05:43 PM
All magic items except armor and weapons resize, the size of armor and weapons varies randomly when found (I'm assuming you skip that step if you pry it off someone's corpse).

It's not unreasonable to houserule that the same dweomers that allow all those other items to fit anything from housecats to hill giants are also applied to magic arms and armor.

Collin152
2008-03-21, 05:45 PM
All magic items except armor and weapons resize, the size of armor and weapons varies randomly when found (I'm assuming you skip that step if you pry it off someone's corpse).

It's not unreasonable to houserule that the same dweomers that allow all those other items to fit anything from housecats to hill giants are also applied to magic arms and armor.

You're confused.
You seem to confuse size, as in the noticable differances from one adult human to another, with size catagories, such as the differance between a hafling and an ogre.

Frosty
2008-03-21, 05:48 PM
I never mentioned size categories, because resizing in that respect would be dumb. You can make humongous profits by creating an adamantium armor or a tiny creature and giving it to an ogre or something, and then melting the resulting large ore down for lots of adamantium.

I mean just because differen creatures of the same size category.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-03-21, 05:54 PM
Counter question then: Do dopplegangers deserve +4 LA and +4 RHD for slight ability adjustments, sleep/charm immunity, 60' darkvision, and detect thoughts at will? Or should it be less? :smallamused:

It's continuous detect thought, which is better than simple at will. Its shape-altering ability is also Change Shape, not alternate form ability which means it gets to keep its natural armour, physical stats etc upon change.

For player characters, Changeling's a much better choice than doppelganger, but for DM there's plenty of monsters with Change Shape ability around, so they don't get much love at all.

"Hey, I'm a doppelganger and I can change my shape at will!"

"Hi, I'm a couatl and I can cast spell AND change my shape!"

"Hiya guys, I'm Rakshasa..."


Yeah, no love for doppelgangers. :smallannoyed:



Edit: always that bloomin' grammar, eh? Ogre Mages also get to use Change Shape and it also has Regeneration ability to boot. Hey, it can fly even when shape-changed!

Admiral Squish
2008-03-21, 06:04 PM
Also, changelings can access the cabinet trickster PrC, which lets them get two bonus feats, three 'thought tricks' and detect thoughts at will for just five levels of a 3/4 bab, two-good-saves class. Also, they get their skill bonuses upped, and the true doppelganger shapechange.

So, about three levels saved from the LA/RHD of a doppelganger. Much cheaper, and even more effective.

Zincorium
2008-03-21, 06:27 PM
Sizing debate:
You're confused.
You seem to confuse size, as in the noticable differances from one adult human to another, with size catagories, such as the differance between a hafling and an ogre.

Wrong? Possibly. Confused? No, I'm not, I'm well aware of the relevant passages, which while they do not specifically state that I'm right, they also don't state explicitly or otherwise that you are.


Size And Magic Items

When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

The DMG further adds that playing a halfling (as an example) does not prevent the character from using items. There is also no indicated size range for any items other than weapons and armor.

If you want to read into this that size categories are excluded, you're left with the question of how one determines what sizes any given item will fit.

I'm going to second cabinet trickster, but only if you're in a game where political intrigue and maneuvering are a focus but combat is rare. In the typical dungeoncrawl, the abilities would mostly go to waste.

Recaster is very nice for beguiler, duskblade, or dread necros, but those don't really seem to be on the table.

Chronicled
2008-03-21, 06:48 PM
I'm going to second cabinet trickster, but only if you're in a game where political intrigue and maneuvering are a focus but combat is rare. In the typical dungeoncrawl, the abilities would mostly go to waste.

And in that sort of game, the Changling rogue substitution level is absolutely amazing.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-21, 07:01 PM
I like the Variant Changeling Rogue for 10 skill points a level and their class social specials.

I'd make them +1 LA if their shapechanging was equivalent to Alter Self.

Admiral Squish
2008-03-21, 07:05 PM
And in that sort of game, the Changling rogue substitution level is absolutely amazing.

What do you think you're supposed to do with the first six levels?

Chronicled
2008-03-21, 07:14 PM
What do you think you're supposed to do with the first six levels?

:smallconfused: ??

The level I'm referring to is Changling Rogue 1. It takes away Trapfinding, in exchange for 10+Int skill points, changing the time for Gather Information attempts to 1d4+1 x10 minutes (instead of 1d4+1 hours), lets you make a "gut assessment" of a social situation with a Sense Motive check as a full round action instead of a minute, and Lets you take 10 on Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Gather Information checks. At level 1.

What else do you need for your first six levels? Yeesh!

cupkeyk
2008-03-21, 08:39 PM
and the shapeshifter subtype.

Frosty
2008-03-21, 08:48 PM
Speaking of which, what happens to a Changeling that is touched by a Chaos Beast?

Parvum
2008-03-21, 09:50 PM
It's continuous detect thought, which is better than simple at will. Its shape-altering ability is also Change Shape, not alternate form ability which means it gets to keep its natural armour, physical stats etc upon change.

Actually, it's at-will detect thoughts, at a low DC that you'll only ever be able to increase with small ability bonuses and Ability Focus. And Change Shape means you'll never be able to benefit from forms with high natural armour or physical abilities. On that note:


Counter question then: Do [MONSTERS] deserve [LEVEL ADJUSTMENT AND RACIAL HIT DICE] for [MONSTER ABILITIES AND SKILL BONUSES WORTH EFFECTIVE LEVEL MODIFICATIONS -32]

...No. Death to disproportionate level adjustments meant to discourage players from non-humanoids/humanoids with physical disabilities! Humans deserve +1 LA! Long live the freak races!

Collin152
2008-03-21, 10:53 PM
Wrong? Possibly. Confused? No, I'm not, I'm well aware of the relevant passages, which while they do not specifically state that I'm right, they also don't state explicitly or otherwise that you are.




Once again you seem confused. I haven't actually voiced my view yet.

Hectonkhyres
2008-03-21, 10:54 PM
I'm hoping to do a changeling factotum with a multiple personality disorder next time I'm not enslaved as DM.
He is other people.

Chronos
2008-03-21, 10:58 PM
and the shapeshifter subtype.Is that meant to refer to Dopplegangers or to Changelings? Because if Changelings have the shapeshifter subtype, that's actually a pretty big advantage. Being a shapeshifter is about the only defense against Baleful Polymorph/Polymorph Any Object.

Frosty
2008-03-22, 12:22 AM
I'm hoping to do a changeling factotum with a multiple personality disorder next time I'm not enslaved as DM.
He is other people.

Changelings do indeed have the Shapechanger subtype. They are Humanoid (Shapechanger). I think this means Chaos Beasts can't do jack to them...but I could be wrong.

And forget straight Factotum. You are a Factotum/Chameleon with multiple personality disorder and random amnesia. You'r lucky if you can remember if you're a boy or a girl!

Collin152
2008-03-22, 12:26 AM
Of all subtypes, shapechanger is my favorite.
i think all my characters from now on will be Changelings.

Hectonkhyres
2008-03-22, 01:20 AM
And forget straight Factotum. You are a Factotum/Chameleon with multiple personality disorder and random amnesia. You'r lucky if you can remember if you're a boy or a girl!
You have me sold.

Picture Teddy Roosevelt battling lizardmen on aztec pyramids overlooking the panama canal. A battleaxe in one hand, a gnomish gattling crossbow in the other. The next day he wakes up as brutally scarred Achmed, King of Flames... an arab-type mad warrior toting around his bodyweight in homemade alchemic explosives. The next day she is hanging from the ceiling as Camilla the Red Shrike, a terrifying teifling maiden bristling with daggers.

And each version of the changeling thinks he has always been that way. Perhaps not even remembering that he is a changeling.

Rocks. Rocks hard. I'm going to ask whoever DMs for a set of cloths that change shape to suit whatever form I am in. Um... God Yes?

Chronicled
2008-03-22, 01:40 AM
You have me sold.

Picture Teddy Roosevelt battling lizardmen on aztec pyramids overlooking the panama canal. A battleaxe in one hand, a gnomish gattling crossbow in the other. The next day he wakes up as brutally scarred Achmed, King of Flames... an arab-type mad warrior toting around his bodyweight in homemade alchemic explosives. The next day she is hanging from the ceiling as Camilla the Red Shrike, a terrifying teifling maiden bristling with daggers.

And each version of the changeling thinks he has always been that way. Perhaps not even remembering that he is a changeling.

Rocks. Rocks hard. I'm going to ask whoever DMs for a set of cloths that change shape to suit whatever form I am in. Um... God Yes?

Good news is, that set of clothes should cost no more than 500-1800 gp. Doable even for a first-level campaign.

Awesome idea. *Writes down*

Bag_of_Holding
2008-03-22, 03:33 AM
Changelings do indeed have the Shapechanger subtype. They are Humanoid (Shapechanger). I think this means Chaos Beasts can't do jack to them...but I could be wrong.

And forget straight Factotum. You are a Factotum/Chameleon with multiple personality disorder and random amnesia. You'r lucky if you can remember if you're a boy or a girl!


The best way to find out would be by killing oneself... provided you can find someone to resurrect you afterward.

Eita
2008-03-22, 03:54 AM
You have me sold.

Picture Teddy Roosevelt battling lizardmen on aztec pyramids overlooking the panama canal. A battleaxe in one hand, a gnomish gattling crossbow in the other. The next day he wakes up as brutally scarred Achmed, King of Flames... an arab-type mad warrior toting around his bodyweight in homemade alchemic explosives. The next day she is hanging from the ceiling as Camilla the Red Shrike, a terrifying teifling maiden bristling with daggers.

And each version of the changeling thinks he has always been that way. Perhaps not even remembering that he is a changeling.

Rocks. Rocks hard. I'm going to ask whoever DMs for a set of cloths that change shape to suit whatever form I am in. Um... God Yes?

That is awesome. I need to do that some time.

ColdBrew
2008-03-22, 02:49 PM
For extra cheese, go into Warshaper and just stay in a slightly altered form all the time to make the benefits permanent.