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Archetype-
2008-03-22, 12:31 AM
<emerges from a gate to the Elemental Plane of Water>

Greetings once again. I come to you yet again (after some months of lurking...) to ask for some advice. First, a bit of backstory. In my sea-based game, the party is temporarily in the employ of the Thanos Empire (the main human faction of my custom campaign setting). They've been getting missions from an Imperial officer and getting paid based on the relative success of their mission. Last session, they successfully boarded and recaptured a floating Shrine of Valkur (Valkur is found on page 49 in the Stormwrack supplement; I've “tweaked” him so he is the deification of Captain Jack Sparrow) without dealing any damage to the shrine aside from broken doors and some minor burning. Their commanding officer (Colonel Edrick Grange) is on his way with a bunch of other Imperial Navy ships and command staff to use the shrine as a floating field command. If this next mission goes well enough, they'll be assigned to be a sort of vanguard force when the time comes to make landings in enemy-held territory.

The next mission will be a joint strike by the dwarves, orcs, and Thanos humans. They will have a a small scouting ship of their own, on loan from the Thanos Imperial Navy. The overall objective is an archipelago being used as a series of pirate bases and encampments. The largest problem facing this assault isn't the defending drow warships and pirate vessels or all the landlubbers, it's a friggin' dragon. There will be a couple of other mercenary teams assigned to this, but I'm really planning on the having the PCs face this one, preferably from their ship if it won't TPK them. I have my handy MM and MM2 here, and I'm flipping through trying to see which dragons would best suit this. From what I can gather, it's looking like the black, white, bronze, silver, and topaz (topaz is on page 85 of MM2) dragons are my best bets. I don't want to kill the party, but I do want to see they face something that's obviously not fresh out of it's mother's/father's cave.

So what's my party, you say? You need only look just below.

-CG Aventi Swashbuckler5/Lasher3- Specializing in whips, good at battlefield (and deck) control
-CN Orc Fighter6/Eye of Gruumsh1/Warblade1- Our resident Mr. Full Blade at the head of deck clearing
-NG Human Ranger5/Swashbuckler3- relies heavily on archery and is accompanied by his wolf companion
-CN High Elf Fighter2/Ranger2/Swashbuckler1/Order of the Bow Initiate2/Duskblade1- Working on becoming a sniper of sorts, plans to take Arcane Archer levels when he can
-CN Half-Elf Rouge7/Scar Enforcer1- A skill monkey through and through, uses his short bow until he can get someone either flat-footed of flanked
-CG High Elf Rogue4/Sorceror4- A thief-mage who's much better at thievery than magery. Her only 2nd-level spell is flaming sphere, though she did recently pick up a CL7 wand of magic missile. Her primary long-ranged attack is actually a light crossbow.

The ship will have some siege weaponry on it, but it's for anti-ship purposes and entirely unsuited to anti-personnel and anti-flyer use. The small contingent of Thanos Marines onboard obviously won't even be able to touch the dragon, so they're extra sailors in this encounter. The party will have to get past a ship-to-ship fight, but they will have orders to sink or destroy the vessel(s) they face rather than capture them. If memory serves, everyone in the party has a magical ranged weapon of some kind. If killing isn't possible, they should at least be able to do enough damage to make it break off the attack. On a final note, the party having no one around to mend their wounds a lot of the time (even an NPC cleric) has gotten them into the habit of getting a lot of cure something wounds potions and spell tiles.

Thanks in advance, and my your run never rum out!

-Archetype

Ascension
2008-03-22, 12:41 AM
:smallconfused: That's a pretty strange party. I'm sure there are a lot of good stories behind those builds.

I think I'd go for a young adult black dragon. Blacks get water-breathing, so it can rise in and out of the water mid fight at will. Since you're actively trying to avoid a TPK, this can give you an excuse to give them time to heal by having him submerge for a few rounds.

streakster
2008-03-22, 12:47 AM
That is one weird party - and I second a black. When the party is weak, it goes under. Plus the psychological effect of waiting for it to resurface is wonderfully torturous.

Archetype-
2008-03-22, 02:27 AM
:smallconfused: That's a pretty strange party. I'm sure there are a lot of good stories behind those builds.


That is one weird party

You certainly got that right. I've lost track of how many times I've stated that aloud or myself. Funny thing is, “weird” parties aren't really uncommon around here. I guess I've gotten used to it.


I think I'd go for a young adult black dragon. Blacks get water-breathing, so it can rise in and out of the water mid fight at will. Since you're actively trying to avoid a TPK, this can give you an excuse to give them time to heal by having him submerge for a few rounds.


I second a black. When the party is weak, it goes under. Plus the psychological effect of waiting for it to resurface is wonderfully torturous.

That was one of my first thoughts as well, if only because the MM lists the Black before the other dragons. Here's another nasty surprise for them. It could use its breath weapon to put a nice little hole in the ship under the waterline. That might be a little too mean, though. It already has a fairly high AC, some nasty natural attacks, and SR high enough to give my party's “arcanists” a hard time. I'm not counting on its spellcasting particularly devastating, but I can certainly be really mean and boost it's AC a lot higher or something. The party has a lot of stuff from splatbooks, I can certainly do the same a hundred times over. <goes to look up cantrips and 1st level spells in his Spell Compendium>

-Archetype

Admiral Squish
2008-03-22, 02:57 AM
Is there some reason we've neglected green? Swim speed, acid breath (in a cone, especially good. Hit them all with it off the bat and have the deck melt out from under them. Green dragons are best known for their terror-mongering tactics, so that even fits the monkier. Have it toy with them. Play with their minds. Have it talk constantly, make it seem all-powerful and in control. Make it go underwater, only to surface on the other side and grab one of them before dragging them underwater. Have it nudge the boat from underneath, just enough to worry them.

Blasterfire
2008-03-22, 12:05 PM
Whatever dragon you go with, make sure to have it grab sailors off the deck, especially if they're standing right next to the party. Scare 'em a bit.

Kol Korran
2008-03-22, 12:59 PM
first of all, i'd like to commend the party build. it seems interesting, very ungeneric, and far more "flavur/ roleplay" based than just optimizing. this always makes for a fun play in my experience. but as to your question:

1) if you're going with a single dragon, then i'd suggest to go with the bronze actually, for several reasons:

- many experienced players faced Black Dragons sometime, and so the impact might be diminished. Bronze Dragons are very rarely used (the most common metalic dragons used are gold and copper as far as i know). it might be a very refreshing change.

- Bronze Dragons ARE Sea/ Ocean dragons. much of their fluff (and some of their capabilities) fit the campaign setting.

- their alternate form ability could make the battle more varied, as well as more "cinematic": after several simple attacks the over condifent dragons soars high, before diving down, changing in the last moments to a bronze skinned humanoid, with greenish-dark eyes (have the dragon carry a small tied bag with some weapon and such. perhaps a drow weapon?), as the battle go worse he might leaps over board, turning into a long snout golden dolphin, and so on.... if the party knows of the danger of a dragon, you can play a nice deception- they first meet the dragon in the form of a survivor of one of their fleet's drowned ships (scouting vessals?), when they pull the "sailor" up, it tells them of the horror of the attack, and so on, and minutes after, after learning a bit about the challange ahead of it, it changes form and attacks! (this tactic is mostly for the "wow! it tricked us even though we were warned of it's conniving! smart enemy!" factor, which should be appliedto most dragon encounters). you can use the alternate forms as a "break for the party" from fighting the full dragon form, as well as it being a change of pace.

- the "speak with animals" ability can also be used to add "cinematic value" as well as interesting battle options- the dragon might have conversed with a flock of large birds from the local isles, to act as distractio in battle, or perhaps attack/harrass spell casters and such (a few rounds after the battle starts a masses of birds swarm the ship, screeching, harassing the crew, the wizards, and so forth, while the dragon laughs "you cannot fight the pwoer's of the <insert appropriate native representive fowl here>). again- birds common to the Drow or other ethnical group? other uses:
flocks of birds/ schools of fish (trailing the shi), that masks the dragon's flight/ swim when it's wounded/ needs to regorup.
as the battle rages, the party hears thumps underneath- it's some large sea animal (whale?) the dragon convinced to attack the ship before hand, creating a secondery threat- now the party must decide how to deal with the two.
if you go with the "drowned sailor" tactic, the dragon can then talk with the few animals on board (the ranger's wolf companion?), to either try and gain information, or cause confusion.

- the spell list can include cleric spells, which means healing spells. this might be vital if the party somehow find a brilliant solution (which players so often do), and tear through the beast far faster than anticipated. having some low level healing spells might get your dragon patched up a bit, as it swims/ flies away in a "tactical retreat". also- if the party heals itself while the dragon regroups itself, it might add to their shock to see it healed as well (though probably fer less than the party did).

- one of the things i like about metalic dragon is their secondery breath- it always keep the breath weapon aviable option, even if the party has knowledge of the dragon's breath. if the party knows they are facing a black dragon/ green dragon or such, and they do their research/ knowledge checks, then the breath weapon is mostly useless against them. with the bronze however- you can have it breath it's lightning once or twice, to award the party's preperarion and resource use, and then change to the repulsion breath. also- this is a great tactical weapon, as well as a DM tool to reduce nagging massive battle issues- dragon breathes, most of the crew fleas down to quarters, or jumps to the water (where a few hungry shark the dragon talked before start feasting?), no more dealing with the crew movements and actions during the fight. note that in this watery environment, this breath weapon might be even more deadly then the lightning one... (especially to heavily armored characters). anyway- it's always another option.

- compared to the aforementioned blackdragon, bronze dragon usually have the same size, and one age category than black dragons due of a similar CR. (if it's a problem, just take one size categoty less, and add class level). i'd suggest go with a Juvenile bronze dragon, maybe with one or tow levels of sourcerer (more spells), fighter (exotic drow weapon?), rogue (evasion and sneak), or ranger (good for flaovour, add a focus to a character by "fevorite enemy" such as high elves, and the two weapon fighting in humanoid form can make it look more flashy)

2) just as another idea, if you're realy fearing a TPK, or want a more tactical battle (which you mgiht since the party iscomposed out of 6 characters, plus wolf, plus some of the crew, and so on): the party hears conflicitign reports, about dragons: some scouts depict one color, some another, but the general mannerisms and forms of attacks are very similar. the party would most likely prepare to the "most likely" dragon, thinking there is some sort of deception. in fact, there isn't- there are two dragons! use two dragons (of a yuonger age then originally planned), who for some reason work together (were both orphaned at a young age, and they found each other, sticking together with fierce loyalty and so on...).
the idea is to have to "lesser" dragons, who trely on great coordination between themselves. preferably the party would start combat, thinking they combat just one dragon (a flying one who just breaths and make flyby attacks for example), and then suddenly find a second one! (who swam silently and started raking the hall, or was a bronze dragon in umanoid form, who subbotaged the wheel/ set fire to the siege amunition). then the battle begins, the party facing one opponent while the other does damage, and the dragons switching places whenver one gets too wounded/ in a tough spot, until finally the party must deal with both of them at once, in a desperate fight. (there are many good combinations, but i would suggest to avoid at all costs highly similat ones, or the same breath weapon, such as green and black).
two added side advantage to this: the battle might be far more controllable from your end, and even more importently- you now have two major enemies, whihc can have distinctive personalities which play upon each other, taunting, encouraging, berating, and so on (think of fiercly independent teen aged siblings). having two ofthem might bring their character so much more to life, make them far more real, far more memorable, far more enjoyable....

ok, long enough post. hope this helped, let us know what happened..

Winterking
2008-03-22, 04:00 PM
I second the suggestions of a Black or Green dragon, particularly the bit about having the dragon use acid to melt the hull. To create a good sense of concern/terror/worry among the party, you could have the dragon start melting hulls before it ever surfaces.

This could be a great way to get the accompanying troops out of the way--as the party & allies are starting to drive their enemies away, one of the allied ships suddenly starts sinking for no apparent reason. Then another one starts to sink. Then the PC's vessel lurches, and starts listing, slowing, and sinking. (If it's an archipelago, let the PC's ship be hit in relatively shallow water, so that if it sinks, it can be retrieved without too much difficulty.) After a few rounds of confusion, the dragon pops up and acid-attacks the rigging/sails, or the deck, depending. From there, it can either clamber aboard (making the ship sink much faster) or stay in the water, harassing the swiftly-sinking vessel.

Sure, sinking their ship is kind of mean. But it also is an excellent reminder that the ocean is different than the land. I ran a nautical/piratical campaign, and I found that it was good to have a few moments where the players were reminded "oh, yeah! Our characters are on a ship on the water!" It'll remind them that in a nautical campaign, the ship is as important, if not more important, than any single PC. As such, it's good to spend money on improvements; or, in this case, it's necessary to spend money/time on fixing the boat.

Plus, the repairs/salvage/raising of the sunken ship(s) could be a hook for plenty of other adventures--what do they see underwater? What lies beneath the surface--is it a sunken city? Treasure? A cave complex? Are the islands just the tops of a sunken kingdom?

Grug
2008-03-22, 04:24 PM
Black Dragon melts a hole in the hull and climbs through. As the crew watches the water for the dragon to resurface, Imagine their surprise when it BURSTS out from below deck, catching the players unaware!

Mando Knight
2008-03-22, 05:49 PM
I didn't notice an alignment listed for these adventurers... metallics usually don't attack Good aligned, right? Blacks may be the best bet. Reds could be annoying, though they don't have the ability to breathe water...

Archetype-
2008-03-22, 05:51 PM
1) if you're going with a single dragon, then i'd suggest to go with the bronze actually, for several reasons:

- many experienced players faced Black Dragons sometime, and so the impact might be diminished. Bronze Dragons are very rarely used (the most common metallic dragons used are gold and copper as far as i know). it might be a very refreshing change.

Pssht, you're telling me. First game of D&D I played, the party wound up running into two black dragons over the course of the game. The reason I was considering the metallics as well was due to something I didn't mention in my original post (long enough already). Dragons in my campaign setting don't go by the alignment in their MM entry. They're as varied and diverse in morality and philosophy as humans are. Heck, the first dragon the party encountered was a black and it wasn't looking to fight them.

OK, now to look over and address your arguments for the Bronze.


- their alternate form ability could make the battle more varied, as well as more "cinematic": after several simple attacks the over condifent dragons soars high, before diving down, changing in the last moments to a bronze skinned humanoid, with greenish-dark eyes (have the dragon carry a small tied bag with some weapon and such. perhaps a drow weapon?), as the battle go worse he might leaps over board, turning into a long snout golden dolphin, and so on.... if the party knows of the danger of a dragon, you can play a nice deception- they first meet the dragon in the form of a survivor of one of their fleet's drowned ships (scouting vessals?), when they pull the "sailor" up, it tells them of the horror of the attack, and so on, and minutes after, after learning a bit about the challange ahead of it, it changes form and attacks! (this tactic is mostly for the "wow! it tricked us even though we were warned of it's conniving! smart enemy!" factor, which should be appliedto most dragon encounters). you can use the alternate forms as a "break for the party" from fighting the full dragon form, as well as it being a change of pace.

The ship the party's on certainly won't be the only one around for this attack. Line ships, frigates, even “carriers.” Have a little sloop or something break through first to be the first victim. Party runs into it, picks up the survivor, gets him to the ship's surgeon to get checked out. Time passes... <crackling electric death>


- the "speak with animals" ability can also be used to add "cinematic value" as well as interesting battle options- the dragon might have conversed with a flock of large birds from the local isles, to act as distraction in battle, or perhaps attack/harrass spell casters and such (a few rounds after the battle starts a masses of birds swarm the ship, screeching, harassing the crew, the wizards, and so forth, while the dragon laughs "you cannot fight the power's of the <insert appropriate native representive fowl here>). again- birds common to the Drow or other ethnical group? other uses:
flocks of birds/ schools of fish (trailing the ship), that masks the dragon's flight/ swim when it's wounded/ needs to regorup.
as the battle rages, the party hears thumps underneath- it's some large sea animal (whale?) the dragon convinced to attack the ship before hand, creating a secondery threat- now the party must decide how to deal with the two.
if you go with the "drowned sailor" tactic, the dragon can then talk with the few animals on board (the ranger's wolf companion?), to either try and gain information, or cause confusion.

Oh, I really like that. That's especially cruel considering our casters don't have many (if any) ranks in Concentration. Fear the wrath of the swallows!


- the spell list can include cleric spells, which means healing spells. this might be vital if the party somehow find a brilliant solution (which players so often do), and tear through the beast far faster than anticipated. having some low level healing spells might get your dragon patched up a bit, as it swims/ flies away in a "tactical retreat". also- if the party heals itself while the dragon regroups itself, it might add to their shock to see it healed as well (though probably fer less than the party did).

Heh, I've had a lot of those “I totally didn't expect them to take this down this quickly” moments. I was already planning on giving it a cure something wounds for each spell level it knew anyways.


- one of the things i like about metalic dragon is their secondery breath- it always keep the breath weapon a viable option, even if the party has knowledge of the dragon's breath. if the party knows they are facing a black dragon/ green dragon or such, and they do their research/ knowledge checks, then the breath weapon is mostly useless against them. with the bronze however- you can have it breath it's lightning once or twice, to award the party's preperarion and resource use, and then change to the repulsion breath. also- this is a great tactical weapon, as well as a DM tool to reduce nagging massive battle issues- dragon breathes, most of the crew fleas down to quarters, or jumps to the water (where a few hungry shark the dragon talked before start feasting?), no more dealing with the crew movements and actions during the fight. note that in this watery environment, this breath weapon might be even more deadly then the lightning one... (especially to heavily armored characters). anyway- it's always another option.

I completely forgot about the secondary repulsion breath. The party could very well find themselves with but a skeleton crew for the ship. I know for a fact that one of the party has electricity resistance 10 and the weakest will save in the party, so that'll be a nice little surprise for his character as well.


2) just as another idea, if you're realy fearing a TPK, or want a more tactical battle (which you mgiht since the party iscomposed out of 6 characters, plus wolf, plus some of the crew, and so on): the party hears conflicitign reports, about dragons: some scouts depict one color, some another, but the general mannerisms and forms of attacks are very similar. the party would most likely prepare to the "most likely" dragon, thinking there is some sort of deception. in fact, there isn't- there are two dragons! use two dragons (of a yuonger age then originally planned), who for some reason work together (were both orphaned at a young age, and they found each other, sticking together with fierce loyalty and so on...).
the idea is to have to "lesser" dragons, who trely on great coordination between themselves. preferably the party would start combat, thinking they combat just one dragon (a flying one who just breaths and make flyby attacks for example), and then suddenly find a second one! (who swam silently and started raking the hall, or was a bronze dragon in umanoid form, who subbotaged the wheel/ set fire to the siege amunition). then the battle begins, the party facing one opponent while the other does damage, and the dragons switching places whenver one gets too wounded/ in a tough spot, until finally the party must deal with both of them at once, in a desperate fight. (there are many good combinations, but i would suggest to avoid at all costs highly similat ones, or the same breath weapon, such as green and black).
two added side advantage to this: the battle might be far more controllable from your end, and even more importently- you now have two major enemies, whihc can have distinctive personalities which play upon each other, taunting, encouraging, berating, and so on (think of fiercly independent teen aged siblings). having two ofthem might bring their character so much more to life, make them far more real, far more memorable, far more enjoyable....

Two juvenile dragons... I'm getting really bad ideas. Bad for the party, that is. Consider this. Party finds the aforementioned “survivor” and listens to his tale of terror. When asked what sort of creature did this, he describes the other dragon. Party prepares to face off against that one and gets the first one below. Just as they're about to go below, the “survivor” spots the other dragon incoming and fakes complete panic, practically dragging the rest of the crew below deck with him. A couple rounds pass with the other one doing fly-by or swim-by attacks and the party does it's thing, then the Bronze starts attacking from on the ship.


I second the suggestions of a Black or Green dragon, particularly the bit about having the dragon use acid to melt the hull. To create a good sense of concern/terror/worry among the party, you could have the dragon start melting hulls before it ever surfaces.

<snip>

Sure, sinking their ship is kind of mean. But it also is an excellent reminder that the ocean is different than the land. I ran a nautical/piratical campaign, and I found that it was good to have a few moments where the players were reminded "oh, yeah! Our characters are on a ship on the water!" It'll remind them that in a nautical campaign, the ship is as important, if not more important, than any single PC. As such, it's good to spend money on improvements; or, in this case, it's necessary to spend money/time on fixing the boat.

Mean? Yeah, of course it is. It's a friggin' sea dragon. It's a big, scaly, living attack submarine (or heavy bomber if it decides to fly). I'm not against severely damaging the ship, and if it sinks then it sinks. The party has to deal with these things.


Another really long post. Well, I'm glad I'm getting good advice. Thanks again.

-Archetype

EDIT: Well, now...


I didn't notice an alignment listed for these adventurers... metallics usually don't attack Good aligned, right? Blacks may be the best bet. Reds could be annoying, though they don't have the ability to breathe water..

Knew I forgot something. I'll fix that. In any case, the reason I'm considering metallics is listed above.

Collin152
2008-03-22, 05:53 PM
I didn't notice an alignment listed for these adventurers... metallics usually don't attack Good aligned, right? Blacks may be the best bet. Reds could be annoying, though they don't have the ability to breathe water...

Does the dragon know they're not evil?
Unlikely.
Will it care?
Not necesarily.
Should it still have justification?
Yeah.
Does it need to fight only Evil foes?
No.

Kol Korran
2008-03-22, 08:08 PM
well, glad it helped. tell us what you settled on, and what happened next. i am intrigued...

Archetype-
2008-03-22, 08:32 PM
The next session's not until this coming Friday the 28th, so I've ample time to decide and prepare. Any way the dice fall, it'll be an encounter to remember.

Tyrael
2008-03-23, 01:37 AM
Be sure to tell us all the full story of what goes down! This sounds epic! :smallamused:

Jothki
2008-03-23, 02:01 AM
If you want the ship to most likely make it to the shore, a dragon that can go underwater is a bad idea.

Your biggest problem may very well be justifying why the dragon doesn't just disengage once it realizes that the party is a threat and attack someone else. Then again, since it probably doesn't matter to the plot whether or not some nameless mooks have their ship torched/dissolved, simply getting the dragon off their backs until they can land might be sufficient. As it seems to be set up, there's a fairly good chance that the dragon will survive the battle regardless of who wins, so it doesn't matter too much whether the party is actually capable of taking it down normally.

Triaxx
2008-03-23, 10:07 AM
Nothing is scarrier at sea than a red dragon. Remember that rigging is rope, and sails are cloth. Both of which burn very easily. A red dragon swooping down out of the sky can breath weapon away all propulsion, leaving you vulnerable to the same pirates you set out to destroy.

You have siege weapons? Are we talking cannons, or catapults? Cannons can be used against flyers if you want, and I'm certain the party will want to. Catapults are tricky, but it's possible.

What exactly do you mean, "carriers"? None of the party can fly, but the Lasher might appreciate an opportunity to grab on to the dragon and try to climb aboard, perhaps let him try to put an eye out.

Archetype-
2008-03-23, 03:18 PM
Nothing is scarrier at sea than a red dragon. Remember that rigging is rope, and sails are cloth. Both of which burn very easily. A red dragon swooping down out of the sky can breath weapon away all propulsion, leaving you vulnerable to the same pirates you set out to destroy.

That may very well be (and likely is) the case, but remember that such a breath weapon can set fire to the ship. That has a strong possibility of adding a factor that tosses the encounter very much in the dragons favor. I am trying to avoid a TPK here, and that might happen if the party is busy putting out fires on their ship.


You have siege weapons? Are we talking cannons, or catapults? Cannons can be used against flyers if you want, and I'm certain the party will want to. Catapults are tricky, but it's possible.

The siege weaponry are catapults and ballistae, and the latter are rigged in such a way as they would be useless against flyers without some modifications. Crude cannons do exist in the form of bombards, but the dwarven military is the only race that uses them. They ain't about to let such a potent weapon get used by any other race, regardless of how well they think of them.


What exactly do you mean, "carriers"? None of the party can fly, but the Lasher might appreciate an opportunity to grab on to the dragon and try to climb aboard, perhaps let him try to put an eye out.

By carriers, I mean ships that literally carry flying cavalry. The flying cavalry consists of griffon riders and a mesh of celestial eagles, celestial giant owls, and celestial pegasi. A ship may or may not be classified as a carrier in addition to its existing one depending on whether or not there's a spellcaster aboard who can summon flying stuff. The griffon riders are mainly being used as bombers, flying over a target and dropping alchemist's fire on it. The celestial critters and their riders are filling two roles: aerial recon and air superiority fighters. The carriers (all two of them) already have their own places in this attack, and would likely not arrive in time to be of any help.

Triaxx
2008-03-23, 05:46 PM
True. It can however rake the ship with it's talons. And kick up clouds of steam to hide in, and attack from. The dragon doesn't have to just attack the PC's. As the first wave approaches, have the dragon plummet out of the sky, and make a fly-by attack against each ship, including the PC's. If the ship doesn't catch fire, then the dragon can attack, if it does, have it move away to harrass something else until they get the fires put out.

Catapult's eh? Since this is a big fleet, and sailing out to attack an enemy emplacement, I assume you have fishing equipment aboard. Someone might find themselves tripping over a net. A dragon flying out of a steam cloud to rake the ship might well find itself flying through an entangling net.

Dwarven Bombards? If the ships are nearby, the PC's might benefit from luring the dragon into range. They don't need to use them, just give the dwarves something to shoot at.

Air superiority... Unfortunately, most of those would simply be snacks for a dragon. So they're better off staying clear. Unless you have a dual lance wielding dark elf on a winged unicorn to charge at it. :smallwink:

Incidently, Red's don't have Water Breathing, but they do have a good constitution score and could dive under and resurface on the far side of a ship, forcing the PC's to change position.

MMad
2008-03-23, 06:46 PM
With a dragon capable of extended submersion, is there any reason for it not to just dive beneath the ship and rip the hull to shreds, then fly off and wait for everyone to drown? Will the players' side have any means of fighting a submerged dragon at all?

puppyavenger
2008-03-23, 06:51 PM
With a dragon capable of extended submersion, is there any reason for it not to just dive beneath the ship and rip the hull to shreds, then fly off and wait for everyone to drown? Will the players' side have any means of fighting a submerged dragon at all?

aragonce? laziness? bordome? showing up the pirates? wanting to watch the crew run and scream in pain?

Collin152
2008-03-23, 07:04 PM
aragonce? laziness? bordome? showing up the pirates? wanting to watch the crew run and scream in pain?

I'd have to say all of the above.
As old as the dragon is, the fact that you all die is a forgone conclusion. Why should he bother doing it safely?

Archetype-
2008-03-23, 10:27 PM
With a dragon capable of extended submersion, is there any reason for it not to just dive beneath the ship and rip the hull to shreds, then fly off and wait for everyone to drown? Will the players' side have any means of fighting a submerged dragon at all?

That's about the most tactically viable option at it's disposal. The party only has one character capable of functioning relatively normally underwater, the Aventi. He has a short sword for that exact purpose, but aside from him, the Orc (who has no way of breathing underwater and no melee piercing weapon), and the one person who has an aquatic crossbow (exotic weapon from Stormwrack), there's no effective counter to that on the party's end.


Since this is a big fleet, and sailing out to attack an enemy emplacement, I assume you have fishing equipment aboard. Someone might find themselves tripping over a net. A dragon flying out of a steam cloud to rake the ship might well find itself flying through an entangling net.

The ships have something better than that... Boarding nets. Set-up takes an hour, but claws won't be able to get through the heavily-tarred rope netting as easily unless it uses its breath weapon.


Unless you have a dual lance wielding dark elf on a winged unicorn to charge at it. :smallwink:

<colors himself noob> OK, do I even want to know where that horrid idea came from?

-Archetype

Kol Korran
2008-03-23, 10:49 PM
hi, just one thought about your players falling into water, since it is a fairly big hazzard: why not equip your players (or allow them to buy), some special potions (call them "sailor's last chance- giving water breathing and a +5 or +10 to swim for a short time. a minute or five perhaps?). you could claim that the fleet's wizard/ artificer/ potion maker made these in abundance in preperation for the invasion.
these short lived potion could prevent the character from dying by failing a blalance check near the rail/ bfailing a save against a repulsion gas/ being bull rushed/ whatever. but- it also keeps the danger alive and kicking (or treading, depending how you look at it).

oh, one more thing- goooooo Bronzy!

Triaxx
2008-03-24, 06:22 AM
I meant flung from catapult's actually, if you can manage to get him as he swings, he'll take some pretty heavy drowning damage.

I don't know either, but I guess it's because Lance's do double damage on a charge, and unicorns get extra damage from their horn on a charge. I think it counts lances as finesseable for some reason. It's also supposed to be a cavalier.

And speaking of breathing underwater:
Potion of Breath
Effect: A potion of Breath lasts for 8 hours from it's initial use, and does not interfere with breathing, or speech. One potion contains three doses.
Cost: Purchase: 10,000gp Brew: 5,000gp, Water Breathing/Scroll of Water Breathing, DC 22 Brew Potion Check.

It's the kind of thing the Navy SEAL's wish they had. An invading navy might give it to the special forces who go in first to hunt for mines, or other booby traps. Think hundreds of rogues diving off the boat and swimming away to search for traps. Maybe the navy has a few left after some of it's rogues got ill from bad sushi.

Kol Korran
2008-03-24, 06:58 AM
clarification on the "sailor's last chance" sort of potion (stemming from triaxx's post):
i know of the water breathing potion (didn't remember it was this expensive though). what i had in mind was a simpler potion, for a short time (1-5 minutes i'd suggest), that also gives a bit of a swim bonus. the "fluff" behind it is a fairly low cost saving device for sailors and the like (if they get thrown over board during a storm for example). the gaming reason is to give the characters some help when falling to the water (instead of havingthem nearly helpless and drowning), without removing the actual danger, or providng a far too tactical tool (as an 8 hours water breathing potion would be).
it's not listed anywhere, but who cares. just though it'll fit the situation, and the campaign...

Archetype-
2008-03-24, 06:07 PM
I meant flung from catapult's actually, if you can manage to get him as he swings, he'll take some pretty heavy drowning damage.

Ah, now I see it... and if the net doesn't entangle it, it's still been hit by a big friggin' rock. That hurts... ow.


Potion of Breath
Effect: A potion of Breath lasts for 8 hours from it's initial use, and does not interfere with breathing, or speech. One potion contains three doses.
Cost: Purchase: 10,000gp Brew: 5,000gp, Water Breathing/Scroll of Water Breathing, DC 22 Brew Potion Check.

It's the kind of thing the Navy SEAL's wish they had. An invading navy might give it to the special forces who go in first to hunt for mines, or other booby traps. Think hundreds of rogues diving off the boat and swimming away to search for traps. Maybe the navy has a few left after some of it's rogues got ill from bad sushi.

This stuff would be in the hands of the SpecOps of the Thanos Imperial Navy. Swim in from a few hundred meters out, neutralize and/or capture key defensive positions. For greater ease of use, it'd be in the form of a spell tile (got that from Complete Arcane) so they could just slip it into a readily accessible space and break it with a firm blow. Stuff like this...


what i had in mind was a simpler potion, for a short time (1-5 minutes i'd suggest), that also gives a bit of a swim bonus. the "fluff" behind it is a fairly low cost saving device for sailors and the like (if they get thrown over board during a storm for example). the gaming reason is to give the characters some help when falling to the water (instead of havingthem nearly helpless and drowning), without removing the actual danger, or providng a far too tactical tool (as an 8 hours water breathing potion would be).

Would indeed be much cheaper to make, but unfortunately still restricted to more elite sailors and soldiers. The Thanos Imperial Navy (and military in general) is based somewhat off of Warhammer 40,000's Imperial Guard: lots of guys, not many of them are actually competent. If the party asks about it someone could get on it, but it wouldn't be ready in time. The Navy's not exactly made out of Water Breathing potions either, and it'll take more than one trip to fully restock the Shrine they just captured.


I don't know either, but I guess it's because Lance's do double damage on a charge, and unicorns get extra damage from their horn on a charge. I think it counts lances as finesseable for some reason. It's also supposed to be a cavalier.

I swear, that is the worst plan since this guy called Bob wrote a book about this goody two-shoes dark elf ranger who dual wields scimitars and is followed by this huge black kitty. It's so bad, I need to see it on a character sheet just to see the abomination. I sincerely doubt lances can be used with Weapon Finesse, but I don't care. It might end up looking fairly badass... :smalltongue:

<prints up a blank sheet and gets his D6s and Russian space pen>

-Archetype

Triaxx
2008-03-24, 08:43 PM
True, depending on how fast he's coming, he might hit open nets or have a BIG headache. Hope he's got Cure Hangover. :smallbiggrin:

Alter Self is probably a better option, though for the purpose stated one potion is enough for three people, so two would do the party.

The trick seems to be using a Cavalier, which allows Mounted Pounce, and oversized TWF, so the lances are treated as light. Which is appearently how finesse can be applied, though I would say no to that. Worse still, I wrote a homebrew that increases the damage a lance does even further when charging.

Archetype-
2008-03-24, 10:28 PM
True, depending on how fast he's coming, he might hit open nets and/or have a BIG headache. Hope he's got Cure Hangover. :smallbiggrin:

There, fixed that for ye. :smallwink:


The trick seems to be using a Cavalier, which allows Mounted Pounce, and oversized TWF, so the lances are treated as light. Which is appearently how finesse can be applied, though I would say no to that. Worse still, I wrote a homebrew that increases the damage a lance does even further when charging.

Not to derail my own thread, but I just looked up Oversized TWF. It only applies to the off-hand weapon, so you could only finesse the off-hand lance. That is, unless there's some broken enhancement/feat/class feature/cheddar that makes a lance an einhander.

EDIT: I'm also not finding Mounted Pounce anywhere. Closest I can find is Full Mounted Attack for the Cavelier, and that's not exactly a pounce...

Yakk
2008-03-24, 11:53 PM
From the perspective of the dragon:

Step 1: Infiltrate and Scout. Show up as a wounded friendly.

Step 2: Ambush. Friendly ships are going to attack the ship. During the fight, the dragon starts killing the crew on board. If serious resistance develops, jump overboard and/or transform. Crippling the anti-ship weaponry is key, and easy for something as powerful as a dragon.

Step 3: Fight. The dragon uses breath weapons to clear the deck of the ship. The goal here is to beat down the humans on the ship so the friendly ship can capture it.

Step 4: Oh crap. This is likely to happen with the PCs on board the ship: they will be much tougher than expected. The dragon isn't an idiot, and will have a backup plan: first, pull out. Second, hull the ship.

It is better that the ship sink than the Dragon be defeated. :)

...

Now the question becomes, how to the players not die?

Triaxx
2008-03-25, 07:31 AM
Pounce allows you to full attack at the end of a charge, but doesn't normally function while mounted. Cavalier allows full attack while mounted. The combination of the two is the trick.

How to survive? Head for Ye Ol' lifeboat.

Archetype-
2008-03-25, 07:51 PM
Step 1: Infiltrate and Scout. Show up as a wounded friendly.

Step 2: Ambush. Friendly ships are going to attack the ship. During the fight, the dragon starts killing the crew on board. If serious resistance develops, jump overboard and/or transform.

Step 3: Fight. The dragon uses breath weapons to clear the deck of the ship. The goal here is to beat down the humans on the ship so the friendly ship can capture it.

Step 4: Oh crap.

I already had something like this bouncing about in my mind not long after the first replies to my post came in. Either way, I'm definitely doing the lone/wounded sailor ruse.


Now the question becomes, how to the players not die?


How to survive? Head for Ye Ol' lifeboat.

Once the call to beat to quarters sounded, those would be the first things in the water. It worked in the Napoleonic Wars, so why (dragons aside) shouldn't it work here?


Pounce allows you to full attack at the end of a charge, but doesn't normally function while mounted. Cavalier allows full attack while mounted. The combination of the two is the trick.

I looked up the class feature (Full Mounted Attack) and a random thing that grants pounce (Lion Totem Barbarian, Complete Champion). Now, it says on page 313 of the MM that it functions at the end of a charge. I'll admit, that looks especially good if it's coming from a dual-lancer on critterback. There's a catch to that, though. The Full Mounted Attack specifically states that it cannot be combined with a charge, only if the mount moves more than five feet and less than a single move action. There's nothing stopping you from just moving and doing a dual-lance full attack, you just aren't getting the shiny charge and pounce benefits.