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View Full Version : Leap Attack with a mount?



Hal
2008-03-22, 08:43 AM
Okay, so I'd like to see Leap Attack work from the back of a mount. The complications it brings comes from having either a Handle Animal check or a mount's Jump check that is too low.

What can bring up either? Can you put a Ring of Jumping on your mount if it doesn't have fingers? (Horseshoes of Jumping?)

Rad
2008-03-22, 09:50 AM
Horseshoes of jumping would be a perfectly reasonable option IMO.

ashmanonar
2008-03-22, 11:10 AM
Horseshoes of jumping would be a perfectly reasonable option IMO.

Holy crap, this idea sounds ridiculously powerful.

Hal
2008-03-22, 12:28 PM
Holy crap, this idea sounds ridiculously powerful.

Not exactly. To get your mount to jump, you have to make a Handle Animal check, or have your mount make a Jump check, whichever modifier is lower. That's why I'm also looking for ways to increase the Handle Animal modifier.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-22, 01:25 PM
Would never fly in my games. Cavaliers are bad enough without being able to Leap Attack while mounted and charging with a lance.

Anyway, you can increase any skill with essentially identical items. Check out the item creation rules.

Anukuta
2008-03-22, 01:36 PM
Not exactly. To get your mount to jump, you have to make a Handle Animal check, or have your mount make a Jump check, whichever modifier is lower. That's why I'm also looking for ways to increase the Handle Animal modifier.

Aren't you supposed to make a 'Ride' check instead of a Handle-Animal check when you are mounted on it?

As per the 'Leap' option in the Ride skill's definition.
To make your mount 'Leap' over an obstacle requires you to make a Ride check DC15 and/or use your Mount's jump modifier (whichever is lower) to see how far your mount goes and/or if you succeed.

If you fail (whichever) you fall off your mount and take appropriate falling damage. This 'Leap' is part of your mounts' Move action. So it provokes attacks of oppertunities as normal when you travel through ennemie's threatened squares.

EX.
You have Ride 4 and your mounts has Jump 6. To make your mount leap, youd' have to make a Ride check DC 15 (choosing where to direct your mount's jump) and then roll your mounts' jump check to see how far it would go. If you fail your ride check, the mount makes the jump without you and you fall on the ground (taking appropriate falling damage depending on the mount's total on it's jump roll.)
---------------

Also, any mount not trained to be a warmount can't be directed in battle. You have to make Ride checks to be able to make it do anything. If you are fighting in your saddle and moving at the same time you still need to make ride checks to direct your mount with your knees and feet and stay in the saddle at the same time unless you have feats for that.

read the Ride skill in the PH it has all the rules for that kind of thing.

Hal
2008-03-22, 01:44 PM
Ah, thanks. I guess I wasn't remembering that properly.

You still need an item to increase Ride and/or the mount's jump check.

Anukuta
2008-03-22, 01:50 PM
Ah, thanks. I guess I wasn't remembering that properly.

You still need an item to increase Ride and/or the mount's jump check.

Yeah, I'm a druid with a Leopard I trained as a mount. Still getting used to all of the skills descriptions and things I need to know about riding in battle.
I'm thinking of actually taking a feat related to it and maxed my skill in riding.

But I haven't found any clear rules about the actual mounts attacking other than the small: fight with warhorse descriptor in the ride skill.... which really didn't help me at all when it comes to my leopard.

I don't think you *need* an item for your mount. It certainly can't hinder it though. Depends on the mount. If they don't have points in 'jump' then it's usually their Strength (with appropriate minuses with the load they are carrying)

RTGoodman
2008-03-22, 02:22 PM
I personally wouldn't allow a mounted Leap Attack, and as I interpret it I don't think it works. From the feat itself:


You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat.
Emphasis mine.

According to the feat, you make the Jump, and I don't think you can do that from the back of a speeding mount unless you're just going to literally jump out of the saddle at someone. Even mounted combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#mountedCombat) says that the mount makes the charge, so the mount could I guess take Leap Attack as a feat and use it.

Of course, with a certain reading of the mounted charge rules, you'd get the Leap Attack bonus if your mount had the feat: "If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge." I'd say that the extra Power Attack damage is a bonus gained from the charge.


On the actual topic, you can create items with up to +30 on skill checks without resorting to epic items. And since items can work for anyone, you can make stuff for your mount that'll help him out in the Jump department.

Also, I can't find the exact location, but I believe when you put a ring on an animal, it becomes a bracelet or something like that; gauntlets or gloves become horseshoes (or gloves for non-horses), rings become bracelets, and Arm magic items just go on the front set of legs. I don't know where this exact info is, though.

Anukuta
2008-03-22, 02:30 PM
What about the Leopard's pounce ability?

If I where to (say) make my mount run and attack a monster, throwing myself down on purpouse (making a soft fall ride check to take no damage) could the mount technically continue with it's special 'pounce' ability since the 'leap' is technically part of it's move and not an action from it's/my part?

Hal
2008-03-22, 02:55 PM
I personally wouldn't allow a mounted Leap Attack, and as I interpret it I don't think it works. From the feat itself:


Emphasis mine.

According to the feat, you make the Jump, and I don't think you can do that from the back of a speeding mount unless you're just going to literally jump out of the saddle at someone. Even mounted combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#mountedCombat) says that the mount makes the charge, so the mount could I guess take Leap Attack as a feat and use it.


Hm . . . maybe. I guess Leap Attack doesn't really say one way or the other if it's applicable to mounted combat.

Although if you think it's too game breaking to let someone use Leap Attack from a mount, just say so. (Although this would be the first time I've ever heard anyone describe something a fighter does as too powerful)

ocato
2008-03-22, 03:03 PM
I had this idea a while back and it was similarly shot down. I feel that whether you yourself are flying down or flying down on the back of an animal makes little difference in the amount of force you would add to the attack, and I still maintain that while of limited use, leap attacking with a mount should be positive. Would I allow it to stack with Lance and Spirited charge modifiers? That's more of a balance issue than a straight rules/common sense issue and should be discussed as such.

RTGoodman
2008-03-22, 03:25 PM
Although if you think it's too game breaking to let someone use Leap Attack from a mount, just say so. (Although this would be the first time I've ever heard anyone describe something a fighter does as too powerful)

Well, I'm not completely sold on it being game-breaking, so I was just looking at it through the lens of whether it works by RAW (or, at least, RAI). If it's allowed and isn't ridiculous, I'd say it's fine for you to allow it.

Thinking about it now, I guess if it allowed for your mount to do the jumping while you had the feat, I'd allow it based on reasoning, but I'm not sure the wording of the feat allows you to do it that way. Of course, if that's allowed then people start arguing about how you should use your mounts Str modifier to damage since it's his momentum carrying you and your lance...

As far as why I wouldn't necessarily allow it along with other feats and such, I just don't know how you'd get more damage by stacking it with other bonuses for charging. I mean, regular charging is running and doing a little extra damage. A mounted charge does the same thing, but with Spirited Charge (and/or a lance or whatnot) you do a lot extra damage from the "faster" charge and the application of better momentum and whatnot. Leap Attack, fluff-wise, does the same thing - you're getting better momentum by leaping as you charge. (At least, that's what I assume is the fluff reason.) So, how does the combination of your mount running and jumping do so much more damage over what Spirited Charge is doing anyway? I mean, mechanically they're different (you deal double damage in general with SC, but LA adds to your PA damage), but it seems to me they're representing the same thing.

Regarding power, allowing it all isn't necessarily going to make a Fighter more powerful or broken than Celerity/Timestop/etc. Wizard or anything like that, but it's still considerably better than your run-of-the-mill melee-type character. If that's fine with you, that's cool, but there's a reason that the CharOp boards have so-called "uber-charger" builds that do ridiculous amounts of damage.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-22, 08:02 PM
Although if you think it's too game breaking to let someone use Leap Attack from a mount, just say so. (Although this would be the first time I've ever heard anyone describe something a fighter does as too powerful)

Just because magic is unbalanced is no reason to allow a Cavalier to inflict ~500 damage on a single attack.

The feat very obviously has nothing to do with mounts or riding. For powerful mounted charges, there's the Spirited Charge feat. (That, and the tactical feat for mounted warriors in Complete Warrior had some sort of leaping maneuver, didn't it?)

Chronicled
2008-03-22, 08:14 PM
There are the Reins of Ascension in the MIC, which can give +10 to the mount's Jump checks 3/day (or let it fly...), if you need an already published item.