Hailey and Elan theory (spoilers)

[Resist77]

I apologize in advance if this thread is in the wrong area, as I am fairly new to the forum. Also, if I'm repeating something that someone else proposed, a link to said theory would be very much appreciated.

In comic #131, it's revealed that Hailey's father has been incarcerated for life by Lord Tyrinar, the ruler of Tyrinaria.
In comic #50, it's revealed that Nale & Elan's father was the "cold and ruthless general of a nigh-unstoppable army". Look closely at the panel where this is stated, specifically at the banner which the column of armored soldiers bear. There is a large yellow T emblazoned upon the banner.

My theory:

Lord Tyrinar is Elan and Nale's father and the captor of Ian Starshine, Hailey's father, and I strongly suspect that Tyrinar's "Nigh-Unstoppable army" will play some part in defeating Xykon's hobgoblin horde

[Tempest Fennac]

Welcome to the forums. This is the right place, but your idea has been suggested by several other people already, except for the bit about Trygia helping to defeat the Hobgoblins, which is original to my knowledge.

[shadeofblack]

awesome theory.

[The_Weirdo]

Sounds coherent.

[Lionpawheart]

Well, we know that they will end up there at one point to get Haley's dad out of prison, so that's when we'll find out.
It might only be a coincidence though. And Elan and Nale's father could already be dead.

[aazru]

Grandfather then? :smalltongue:

[Zeitgeist]

Sounds like the Giant left that T there as an intentional hint to this effect. Seems a little more than mere coincidence.

[Resist77]

... Elan and Nale's father could already be dead.

hm, I only just noticed that Elan referred to his mother in present tense ie "She's a barmaid" in contrast to Nale referring to his dad in the past tense "My father was..." you may very well be right.

[David Argall]

My theory:

Lord Tyrinar is Elan and Nale's father and the captor of Ian Starshine, Hailey's father, and I strongly suspect that Tyrinar's "Nigh-Unstoppable army" will play some part in defeating Xykon's hobgoblin horde

Not impossible, but for the most part the story needs more foes for the party to defeat, not additional armies on its side. And Lord Tyrinar looks nicely set up as a foe as LE and holding Haley's dad in jail. Much more likely the party will have to spend 50 strips fighting him and/or Nale.

The hobgoblin army may well dispose of itself. Xykon is steadily killing members of it and it could all end up dying at his hands. More likely, Team Evil will find some clue to the location of the next gate and will head off to it while the army stays here, and is then wiped out by the returning Azure City army. There are some other possibilities as well.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

hm, I only just noticed that Elan referred to his mother in present tense ie "She's a barmaid" in contrast to Nale referring to his dad in the past tense "My father was..." you may very well be right.

Maybe, maybe not... Often after a divorce the kids staying with one parent will often say "is" of the parent they are living with and "was" of the absent parent.

I can't see any reason for Lord Tyrinar to be dead, unless Nale killed him in an attempt to wrest the throne away... But if Nale had done so, why bother being an adventurer when you could be a conquering warlord?

I think there will be a three-way (easy Sabine. Stay focused! :smallbiggrin: )battle for the throne, with the results somewhat unpredictable... There are normally three possible results:

Lord Tyrinar wins: Status quo remains the same
Nale wins: Lord Tyrinar is thrown into the dungeon, Elan leads a rescue operation
Elan wins: Big, Happy family reconciliation

Meh... I know the Giant is a much better writer than that, so I expect something more "Giant Worthy" than the usual tropes.

[FujinAkari]

Maybe, maybe not... Often after a divorce the kids staying with one parent will often say "is" of the parent they are living with and "was" of the absent parent.

Except that we're talking about Nale, and Lord T (if that is/was the father) was the present parent.

[Remirach]

Except that we're talking about Nale, and Lord T (if that is/was the father) was the present parent.
Yeah. Plus there's the "no one denies me, Elan. Not father, not you, no one." bit in 61 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html) Sounds like Daddy denied Nale something and paid the price for it.

[The Extinguisher]

No, it sounds like he's just mad at daddy.

This Nale we're talking about. He probably left home at 16 and swore revenge on his father, because his curfew wasn't to his liking.

[Chronos]

On the other hand, that could just be something like Daddy telling Nale not to become an adventurer, and Nale defying him and running away. I'm not convinced that Daddy (whoever he is) particularly paid a price for that.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Yeah. Plus there's the "no one denies me, Elan. Not father, not you, no one." bit in 61 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html) Sounds like Daddy denied Nale something and paid the price for it.

But why would Nale leave the throne, and the massed forces ready to fight and die for him, behind? Especially if he was the heir to that throne?

I sort of get the feeling Nale stormed out of the palace with a "you need me more than I need you" teenaged temper tantrum driving him on. Seems to tie into his "needlessly complicated" M.O.

Edit: Double Ninja'd! I guess I'm not the only parent of teenagers haunting this board! :smallbiggrin:

[Lupy]

I think Nale might be cocky enough to consider him good as dead because of a future plan.

[Remirach]

Nale's remark isn't definitive, but it does set up the possibility that he might have offed his dad, especially combined with Nale's referring to him in the past tense while Elan's mother is apparently still alive.


But why would Nale leave the throne, and the massed forces ready to fight and die for him, behind? Especially if he was the heir to that throne?

Why would Nale do something short-sighted and petty? Why would any character choose to shoot themselves in the foot? It's his nature. He's not as smart as he thinks he is and he's disproportionately vindictive.

Oh, but did you mean why leave them behind if they'd follow him? That I couldn't say. Maybe they were only loyal to his father.

[Resist77]

alternatively, Nale could've turned daddy's army against him and had him imprisoned, possibly in the same cell as a certain 1st edition thief :smallbiggrin: . I believe it's very unlikely that Tyrinar has been killed, at least at this point in the comic

[Laurentio]

Yeah. Plus there's the "no one denies me, Elan. Not father, not you, no one." bit in 61 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html) Sounds like Daddy denied Nale something and paid the price for it.
Not something, but himself. "No one denise me", I think enphasis in on "me". So just his father refused him, or refused to recognize his value.
Standard family conflict between father and son. "You don't understand me! You never liked me! (and you always liked Elan more than me, so I'll kill him.)".

Laurentio

[Remirach]

alternatively, Nale could've turned daddy's army against him and had him imprisoned, possibly in the same cell as a certain 1st edition thief :smallbiggrin: . I believe it's very unlikely that Tyrinar has been killed, at least at this point in the comic
If Tyrinar isn't the twins father, he could still be alive. But Tyrinar could still be Elan and Nale's father even if he'd been killed. Haley's letter might be outdated by now.


Not something, but himself. "No one denise me", I think enphasis in on "me". So just his father refused him, or refused to recognize his value.

Nale is very explicit as to what constitutes Elan's denial -- he refused to ditch Roy and start a new team with Nale. Their father's denial should be something that would fit along the same lines. Moreover, consider the context. Nale has already stabbed Elan and nearly killed him once, now they're fighting again as Nale threatens to do the same once more. When he drops the line in question, Elan is on the defensive and Nale has leaned in with angry-V eyebrows and bared teeth. "No one denies me, Elan. Not father, not you, no one." Nale is trying to be threatening, and he's more than prepared to kill Elan.

Why bring up their father when he's trying to scare Elan? Because something scary HAPPENED to their father. Or at least that's what Nale wants Elan to believe. When Nale's already demonstrated an intent to kill Elan, his sentence comes across with a meaning closer to "no one gets away with denying me. Not even our own father." And the implication that Nale did something to his own father is supposed to shock and frighten Elan even more...

Which, notably, it did not, which was delightful.


Standard family conflict between father and son. "You don't understand me! You never liked me! (and you always liked Elan more than me, so I'll kill him.)".
Nale is so messed-up on the notion of "standard family conflict" that Sabine has to break it to him gently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0364.html) why Julia and Roy could still love each other despite their differences and refusal to change their ways. And their father hardly knew Elan. (Unless I'm wrong Nale himself didn't know he had a twin until he saw Elan and realized they must be.)

[krossbow]

Personally, I'd just love to see a comic with Nale and Elan's parents both in the same room.




"Honey, could you take mr. muggles out for a walk?"

"Damn it woman, I'm torturing the prisoners right now! Do you have any idea how hard it is to intimidate someone with a dog named "mr. muggles?!"

[Tempest Fennac]

I never considered that Nale had done anything apart from running away from home. Those are interesting theories about what could have happened.

[Roc Ness]

Nale is so messed-up on the notion of "standard family conflict" that Sabine has to break it to him gently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0364.html) why Julia and Roy could still love each other despite their differences and refusal to change their ways. And their father hardly knew Elan. (Unless I'm wrong Nale himself didn't know he had a twin until he saw Elan and realized they must be.)

But now should have known Elan's exsistence and who he travels with very well beforehand to create the evil opposites theme correctly from the beginning

[factotum]

Nale wasn't expecting to meet his long-lost twin brother in that dungeon--the evil opposites they had when they first met was pure coincidence. Nale has tried to maintain the theme since (I guess it appeals to his sense of dramatic irony) but hasn't had much luck...

[BisectedBrioche]

Personally, I'd just love to see a comic with Nale and Elan's parents both in the same room.




"Honey, could you take mr. muggles out for a walk?"

"Damn it woman, I'm torturing the prisoners right now! Do you have any idea how hard it is to intimidate someone with a dog named "mr. muggles?!"

That scene makes no sense, from what we know of Nale and Elan's father he wouldn't torture prisoners.

A LE would have someone else do it rather than get their hands dirty.

[mockingbyrd7]

More evidence that Tyrinar is Elan and Nale's father: In strip 50, the mysterious warlord with the T-banner seems to be in a desert-style area. Judging by its Mesopotamian gods, we can guess that the Western continent is a desert. Tyrinaria is in the Western Continent.

Therefore, Elan and Nale's father very well be Lord Tyrinar, ruler of the Western kingdom of Tyrinaria, and incarcerator of Ian Starshine, Haley's father.

Elan is now in a relationship with Haley.

Geez, this is nutty.

One last piece of evidence that Tyrinar is Not-Nale's and Not-Elan's father: Have you ever heard Elan and Nale's last name?
Roy Greenhilt, Durkon Thundershield, Haley Starshine, Belkar Bitterleaf, Vaarsuvius, and Elan.

The prosecution rests. Oh, crap, am I the defendant?

[ShellBullet]

That scene makes no sense, from what we know of Nale and Elan's father he wouldn't torture prisoners.

A LE would have someone else do it rather than get their hands dirty.

That really depends what kind of rules he has. It isn't that far fetched that Lord T, would torture important prisoner to extract info from them like troop movents or any such vital information..

[Saint Nil]

Although I've heard this theory before, many of these predictions are new. Can't wait for the Giant to work this into the comic, cause you know this has to be true. It fits too well to not work. Which is why the Giant is going to make it not.

[turkishproverb]

I can definitelly see this theory coming true, but I would actually find it funnier if Lord T was :vaarsuvius: mate instead.

[brilliantlight]

I can't see :vaarsuvius: marrying a tyrant. She isn't that evil a person.

[reignofevil]

:vaarsuvius: is a she?
(The can of worms I just opened up...)

[gamerboy6000]

:vaarsuvius: is a she?
(The can of worms I just opened up...)
I agree, Vaarsuvius, as far as we know, is a uni-sex.

[The Wanderer]

The hobgoblin army may well dispose of itself. Xykon is steadily killing members of it and it could all end up dying at his hands.

Evidence please. And evidence from the past, while it certainly shows a trend, and while we know Xykon takes pleasure in killing, doesn't show he's doing anything of the sort now.


More likely, Team Evil will find some clue to the location of the next gate and will head off to it while the army stays here, and is then wiped out by the returning Azure City army.

:smallconfused:

If 10,000 Azurites with the advantage of walls and fortifications can't win against the hobgoblins, what makes you think a few thousand who have been living on boats for the past 3 months, were mostly ordinary citizens rather than warriors and who have been completely unable to recruit any allies will be wiping out 20,000 hobgoblins, especially now that the hobs are the ones now have the advantage of fortifications?

[The Wanderer]

Back top the original topic...



My theory:

Lord Tyrinar is Elan and Nale's father and the captor of Ian Starshine, Hailey's father, and I strongly suspect that Tyrinar's "Nigh-Unstoppable army" will play some part in defeating Xykon's hobgoblin horde

The theory about Tyrinar being their dad has been around for a long time, but this is the first time I remember someone theorizing about his army being used versus the hobs and Team Evil. I don't think it will ever happen while old man T lives, but perhaps Elan can claim the loyalty of the army somehow if Tyrinar kicks the bucket. (And maybe the rest of the Order can keep him from screwing things up too :smallwink: ).

Something I've thought recently is that Tyrinar may have more children over there too, and maybe the reason Nale got kicked out in the first place was due to some kind of succession struggle... which could lead to all kinds of interesting situations where Elan and company might be forced to team up with Nale against an even worse sibling, or they might wind up striking a deal with the other sibling. If it turns out to be true it'll be interesting because there are all sorts of ways it could go.

[Roc Ness]

Apart from evil, nale is also ambitious and strong in his own way. If a sibling would be worse than nale than wouldn't he have already found a way to sieze power from his father:smallconfused:

Perhaps elan and haley are half-siblings on their mothers side. Elan or haley would not know as elan's mother may have found the true nature of haley beforehand. Perhaps the reason Ian starshine is held captive is because he was mad at him

[Darke]

Okay, for the not-so serious:

Lord Therkla

Lord Trinar reminds me of blue evil overlord armour.

Serious:
I like this theory, I have not been around for long so I do not really have anything to base this against, but I do like the theory because it ties people into a mind warping twisted plot o' death

thanks for your time

[The Wanderer]

Apart from evil, nale is also ambitious and strong in his own way. If a sibling would be worse than nale than wouldn't he have already found a way to sieze power from his father:smallconfused:

Well, the way I figure it, if there is another sibling it can go one of two ways: either this other sibling is a true bastard who is either Daddy's favorite or was being groomed to be King when Tyrinar croaked and Nale took exception to this, (if you're familiar with Avatar, just think of Azula from that show) or the sibling is a non evil type, (say a lawful neutral, for example) who maybe remained loyal to Tyrinar when Nale and Tyrinar had a falling out.

By the way, I'm operating under the assumption that there was a fight between Nale and Lord T, because of how way back in the comic when Nale had first revealed he was a villain he said something to Elan along the lines of "No one denies me Elan, not you, not father, no one" which makes me think that Nale wanted something from good old dad, whether it was a powerful magical artifact or control of the army or to be made crown prince, and Tyrinar refused to give it to him. I also figure it's a good reason for Nale to be doing mercenary work on an entirely different continent when the Order first ran into him: he was looking to power himself up and recruit followers to either carve out some turf there, or to begin recruiting a force for some kind of plot to take over back home.

[brilliantlight]

:vaarsuvius: is a she?
(The can of worms I just opened up...)

Probably, after all Haley roomed with V before she met Elan. V seems too much of a proper elf to stay overnight alone in the same room as a single woman if he is a he and is married. We know V is married so the odds are very good that V is a woman.

[David Argall]

Evidence please. And evidence from the past, while it certainly shows a trend, and while we know Xykon takes pleasure in killing, doesn't show he's doing anything of the sort now.
You really think he has changed? If so, you can be the one to take him this dull report while he is bored.
However, see 520 "..killed the last one for spelling 'guillotine' wrong on his daily report."


If 10,000 Azurites with the advantage of walls and fortifications can't win against the hobgoblins, what makes you think a few thousand who have been living on boats for the past 3 months, were mostly ordinary citizens rather than warriors and who have been completely unable to recruit any allies will be wiping out 20,000 hobgoblins, especially now that the hobs are the ones now have the advantage of fortifications?
I would say the power of plot.
The presumption is that we will be seeing the last of Azure City with the end of this book, and it's a bit of a downer to leave it in hobgoblin hands. So the odds are the party will lead its recovery. The rest of the book may be 50 pages of fooling around with the LG in Cliffport and then 50 pages of taking back the city.
As to how, the hobgoblins do a paladin stunt and don't stay behind the walls. Instead they bravely advance to the enemy and fall into some trap. Superior forces have been wiped out many a time that way.

[cheesecake]

Maybe, maybe not... Often after a divorce the kids staying with one parent will often say "is" of the parent they are living with and "was" of the absent parent.

I can't see any reason for Lord Tyrinar to be dead, unless Nale killed him in an attempt to wrest the throne away... But if Nale had done so, why bother being an adventurer when you could be a conquering warlord?

I think there will be a three-way (easy Sabine. Stay focused! :smallbiggrin: )battle for the throne, with the results somewhat unpredictable... There are normally three possible results:

Lord Tyrinar wins: Status quo remains the same
Nale wins: Lord Tyrinar is thrown into the dungeon, Elan leads a rescue operation
Elan wins: Big, Happy family reconciliation

Meh... I know the Giant is a much better writer than that, so I expect something more "Giant Worthy" than the usual tropes.

Maybe Elan's mother told him that his father was dead.

[The Extinguisher]

I wonder whether there is any possibility of Haley and Elan to be siblings...

I mean, it would be great if Haley turns out to be adopted and Lord T (possibly Elan's father) is her actual dad.

Just like Star Wars! =P


Condsiderbly more sqiuckyer. All Luke and Leia did was kiss.

[The Wanderer]

You really think he has changed?

Oh not for a second, but if we don't have evidence it can't really be assumed. Any number of things could have happened, from Xykon needing to be out of Azure City for a significant period, to Redcloak inventing distractions, (the O-Chul torture situation might have come from that) to whatever.


However, see 520 "..killed the last one for spelling 'guillotine' wrong on his daily report."

That's a good catch, I had forgotten that line. Still, I highly doubt Xykon is going tor un out of hobs any time soon. (Among other reasons, the bad guys always have to appear stronger and more menacing. There's no story in the good guys surrounding the bad with 30,000 men and going for the kill. When it happens in reverse, then you have a thrilling tale of heroics).


I would say the power of plot. The presumption is that we will be seeing the last of Azure City with the end of this book, and it's a bit of a downer to leave it in hobgoblin hands. So the odds are the party will lead its recovery. The rest of the book may be 50 pages of fooling around with the LG in Cliffport and then 50 pages of taking back the city.

As to how, the hobgoblins do a paladin stunt and don't stay behind the walls. Instead they bravely advance to the enemy and fall into some trap. Superior forces have been wiped out many a time that way.

Eh, presumption may not be a good idea. For all we know Azure City may not be liberated until the last panel ever written in OOTS, after Xykon and Redcloak have been eliminated. (Which would make recruiting allies easier as well). It will be what it will be, but I doubt Rich is going to write it all off as plot or by handing everyone involved an idiot ball (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall). (Yeah, technically I should link to the villain specific version, but this gets the idea across better, or so I think).

[Felixaar]

If 10,000 Azurites with the advantage of walls and fortifications can't win against the hobgoblins, what makes you think a few thousand who have been living on boats for the past 3 months, were mostly ordinary citizens rather than warriors and who have been completely unable to recruit any allies will be wiping out 20,000 hobgoblins, especially now that the hobs are the ones now have the advantage of fortifications?

One word, palsy.

Plot.

[hewhosaysfish]

My pet theory, which I cling to with with an affection inversely proportional to the evidence which supports it, is that:

Tyrinar is Nale and Not-Nale's father.
Nale left in Tyrinaria a huff over something silly.
The route too or from Girard's Gate will pass through Tyrinaria (alternatively, it might actually be in Tyrinaria. Given Girard's choice of defense, the Gate may be in Tyrinar's throne room, pretending to be a hat-rack).
The "more prudent time and place" Nale mentions in 458 is Tyrinaria: While the OotS are fooling around with ninjas and hobgolblins, the LG are overthrowingusurping daddy.
The OotS will have too deal with this in order to continue their quest. The CG brother will rally the long oppressed Tyrinarians against the LE and Nale will be overthrown. A desperate struggle with an invading army of hobgoblins may come either before, after or during this overthrow.
Revelations will be made as to Haley's origins. The precise nature of Ian Starshine's "crimes against the state" may also be relevant.
Elan's predicted happy ending will include being crowned King of Tyrinaria (note Empires are Evil, Kingdoms are Good), making Haley his Queen and instituting Banjoism as the state religion. I hope, for the sake of their subjects, that the King has a sensible advisor and the guards of Royal Treasury are instructed to shoot the Queen on sight.



Probably, after all Haley roomed with V before she met Elan. V seems too much of a proper elf to stay overnight alone in the same room as a single woman if he is a he and is married. We know V is married so the odds are very good that V is a woman.

An interesting point. I had previously only asked myself "Would Haley agree to share with V is he was a man?" and not "Would V agree to share with Haley if he was a man?"
As a possible rebuttal, I would point out V's comments in #237 (re: mops) and #385 (re: gender traits) and in OtOoPCs (re: the irrelevance of Roy's questions) would together seem to imply that V neither notices nor cares about gender differences. The issue of whether it is "proper" for a married man to share a room with a single woman would never be considered; instead, V would ask whether it is possible for a married person to share with a single person...
Can conventional sexual morality be applied under such a unisex world-view?
The question of propriety is thus boiled down to how well V, V's mate and Haley all can trust each other.

[David Argall]

Eh, presumption may not be a good idea. For all we know Azure City may not be liberated until the last panel ever written in OOTS, after Xykon and Redcloak have been eliminated.
It doesn't sound as likely. We miss out on a good ending for the current book, and epilogues need to be pretty limited or they can become a downer.


I doubt Rich is going to write it all off as plot or by handing everyone involved an idiot ball (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall).
While doing that is certainly possible, we are talking about a situation that has happened to large numbers of armies in large numbers of cultures and conditions. No more than routine foolishness is needed.