PDA

View Full Version : Sorceror advice



FireFox
2008-03-22, 03:53 PM
Hi all, back with more questions about prestige classes :smalltongue:. This one is simple: Player wanted to play a rogue, DM wasn't going to have 2 rogues in the same party, Player chose a halfling sorceror. However, the first rogue left the game and the DM was going to let the Player multiclass to rogue, and then wondered if there was a rogue-ish prestige class she could take. The only one he found was spellthief. Are there any "sneaky, stabby, stealy, spelly" prestige classes, and if so, what books?

Thank you!

Solo
2008-03-22, 03:56 PM
First, in a shameless act of self promotion, I direct you to Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems, as linked to in my sig.

Second, the traditional Roguish arcane caster prestige class is Arcane Trickster (DMG), which requires both rogue and sorcerer levels to qualify.

The Beguiler class makes an excellent rogue/sorcerer hybrid, probably better than a rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster.

I think these are the two best options for a rogue/sorcerer concept.

smart thog
2008-03-22, 04:02 PM
First, in a shameless act of self promotion, I direct you to Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems, as linked to in my sig.

Second, the traditional Roguish arcane caster prestige class is Arcane Trickster (DMG), which requires both rogue and sorcerer levels to qualify.

The Beguiler class makes an excellent rogue/sorcerer hybrid, probably better than a rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster.

I think these are the two best options for a rogue/sorcerer concept.


Wrong. Just pick charm person (diplomacy skill), greater invisibility (hide) silence (move silently) and shout (open lock). For the last one, surround yourself, and the other side of the door(it blocks everything that comes out of it, so it can stop things from hearing you shout.) BAM! youve done everything a rouge needs to do with a handfull of spells.

FireFox
2008-03-22, 04:04 PM
Thank you for the class advice, I shall direct that information to her. But also allow me to thank you for pointing out that... essay, a very wonderful thing.

@^ That would be a far easier solution, but it's up to her, really...

Solo
2008-03-22, 04:07 PM
Wrong. Just pick charm person (diplomacy skill), greater invisibility (hide) silence (move silently) and shout (open lock)

1. Charm person doesn't work on non-humanoids, nor does it work on intelligent undead, while diplomacy can.

2. See Invisibility counters Invisibility, as does a good spot or listen check.

3. Silence is good, but you can't exactly cast spells while silenced without Silent Spell, +1 LA.

Keld Denar
2008-03-22, 04:19 PM
There are a lot of arcane rogue builds. Most are pretty good. The classes you want to look at are Unseen Seer (probably the best, in Comp Mage, divination focus sneaky rogue), Arcane Trickster (DMG, nice finisher for USS builds), and Spellwarped Sniper (CScoundrel, turns area spells into rays). Typical builds for a sorceress would include:

Rog1/Sorc4/USS10/AT5 with Practiced Spellcaster
SThief1/Sorc4/USS10/AT5 with Master Spellthief and Practiced Spellcaster
Rog1/Sorc6/Ass1/AT10/Archmage2 with Practiced Spellcaster
Rog1/Sorc4/SWS5/AT10 again, with Practiced Spellcaster

or just about any combination of those

The most important thing to do is to open up Complete Arcane to the section where it talks about "Weaponlike Spells" which is basically any spell with an attack roll that deals damage. These spells can gain the benefits of sneak attack if the caster qualifies (such as from being invisible). Spell Compedium is full of weaponlike spells, just take a look.

If you have any more questions, or want more details on a specific build or build idea, just ask. I love the idea of arcane rogues and would be happy to help you cement a firm build for one.

Chronicled
2008-03-22, 04:52 PM
Have her look at the feat Master Spellthief in Complete Scoundrel. And rejoice.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-22, 04:53 PM
The classes you want to look at are Unseen Seer (probably the best, in Comp Scoundel, divination focus sneaky rogue)...

Minor correction. Unseen Seer is in Complete Mage not Scoundrel (Yes different from Complete Arcane.)

FireFox
2008-03-22, 04:57 PM
Have her look at the feat Master Spellthief in Complete Scoundrel. And rejoice.

Too lazy to crack the book open now, so what does it do?

Chronicled
2008-03-22, 05:03 PM
Too lazy to crack the book open now, so what does it do?

Lets you mix spellthief and another caster for really great effect. See Fax Celestis's Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44299) on the matter.

FireFox
2008-03-22, 05:06 PM
Ooooooooooh, shiny... Thanks!

Collin152
2008-03-22, 05:15 PM
3. Silence is good, but you can't exactly cast spells while silenced without Silent Spell, +1 LA.

Not sure that's what you meant there.
But no, a Sorcerer never makes a mistake, they simply lay traps.
I'm watching you, Solo...

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-22, 05:59 PM
Not sure that's what you meant there.
But no, a Sorcerer never makes a mistake, they simply lay traps.
I'm watching you, Solo...

Level Adjustment, is exactly what it is. It adjusts the spell's level. It is one of a couple different terms I've seen used for it, and of them seems the most clear as far as simple acronyms go. Yes there is another LA, but since they both stand for the same thing, it should be obvious.

And it sure can't be called Spell Level Adjustment, imagine that sentence with SLA instead.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-23, 09:27 AM
Wrong. Just pick charm person (diplomacy skill), greater invisibility (hide) silence (move silently) and shout (open lock). For the last one, surround yourself, and the other side of the door(it blocks everything that comes out of it, so it can stop things from hearing you shout.) BAM! youve done everything a rouge needs to do with a handfull of spells.
You also need anti-trap methods; for that, you want Arcane Sight (detect magic will also work, but not as well - the various Symbol spells will catch you unless you Widen Detect Magic first), Unseen Servant, and Wall of Ice. Oh, and you'll also need a 100 pound bag of rocks (plus several extra bags, and some tool for getting rocks or other debris to fill the bag wherever you happen to be - a pick and shovel, perhaps).

How it works:
1) Cast Arcane Sight. This gives you a 120 foot range for instantly detecting all magical traps that aren't specifically designed against it (can also use Detect Magic, but it's slower).
2) Cast Unseen Servant, and have it drag the 100 pound bag of rocks along the path you wish to take, ahead of you (you can also use that Summoning reserve feat if you'd like).
3) When you find a trap, block it with Wall of Ice. Magical traps lose line of effect; mechanical traps have either their trigger or their delivery blocked.

The bag of rocks triggers basically all mechanical traps (except the "periodic" ones, but those you notice simply by going slowly).

Arcane Sight (or Detect Magic) notices all magical traps that aren't specifically prepared against it.

Curiously, this actually works better than a rogue who's not investing in Skill Focus (Search) for finding the traps laid out in the DMG....

Edit:
Hmm... a Beguiler can qualify for Unseen Seer rather trivially....

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-23, 09:47 AM
I'd go with a Beguiller due to how they have a large spell list (which is admittedly limited mainly to spells with Will saves), and they are great skill monkeys. Relying on magic for diplomacy would cause problems if the target made their Will save and a Sorcerer's spell list is too small to really cover everything a Rogue can do (by the way, Knock is used to open locks rather then Shout, unless Shout could be used to smash locks).

smart thog
2008-03-23, 03:42 PM
I'd go with a Beguiller due to how they have a large spell list (which is admittedly limited mainly to spells with Will saves), and they are great skill monkeys. Relying on magic for diplomacy would cause problems if the target made their Will save and a Sorcerer's spell list is too small to really cover everything a Rogue can do (by the way, Knock is used to open locks rather then Shout, unless Shout could be used to smash locks).

I forgot about knock. But Shout does'nt just break the lock. It also breaks the door.

Gorbash
2008-03-23, 07:15 PM
Btw. it's SorcerEr, not SorcerOr.

FireFox
2008-03-23, 08:38 PM
Um, I'm spelling it "Ye Olde style"? Thanks though.

I shall direct her attention to this thread and she can pick the option she most likes, so thank you all for your help!

Collin152
2008-03-23, 08:47 PM
Btw. it's SorcerEr, not SorcerOr.

Sourscerour.
It can always be worse.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-23, 08:48 PM
Edit:
Hmm... a Beguiler can qualify for Unseen Seer rather trivially....

Nope, Beguilers don't get access to Divination, which is required for Unseen Seer.

Jacob Orlove
2008-03-23, 09:07 PM
Nope, Beguilers don't get access to Divination, which is required for Unseen Seer.
Huh? Here's a list of the divination spells Beguilers have at first level:
0th: Detect Magic, Read Magic
1st: Comprehend Languages; Detect Secret Doors

That should be enough to get you into the class, although you get plenty more divination spells at higher levels too.

Chronos
2008-03-23, 10:44 PM
How it works:
1) Cast Arcane Sight. This gives you a 120 foot range for instantly detecting all magical traps that aren't specifically designed against it (can also use Detect Magic, but it's slower).
2) Cast Unseen Servant, and have it drag the 100 pound bag of rocks along the path you wish to take, ahead of you (you can also use that Summoning reserve feat if you'd like).
3) When you find a trap, block it with Wall of Ice. Magical traps lose line of effect; mechanical traps have either their trigger or their delivery blocked.
Are you going to open that door, or should I? Oh, sorry, it's a little too heavy for your Unseen Servant. And what about traps with a wide area, or distant effect? Your Unseen Servant just triggered a trap that dropped a fifty-ton block out of the ceiling, blocking the exit. Or traps triggered by beings of a particular height, or magical traps plated with lead?

For PrCing to get a rogueish sorcerer, Unseen Seer is the best answer. Don't even consider Arcane Trickster until you've finished Unseen Seer: It doesn't give enough skill points. A rogue (or Spellthief) dip will make it easier to get into US, and will also let you progress your Sneak Attack by a few dice, but it isn't strictly necessary if you'd prefer to keep your caster levels.

Chronicled
2008-03-23, 10:47 PM
Sourscerour.
It can always be worse.

Sorcelator (http://tsots.pbwiki.com/).

LibraryOgre
2008-03-23, 11:12 PM
Sorcelator (http://tsots.pbwiki.com/).

Sauceror (http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Sauceror) ?