9-Level Master of Nine [PrC]

[playswithfire]

I'm running a Tome of Battle PbP tournament and several competitors have expressed the opinion that the Master of Nine prestige class is a bit weak for how steep the prerequisite are and I can't say I totally disagree. So this is what I'm considering as an extension. It's 9 levels rather than 10 because I thought that would be funny. Criticism and recommendations greatly appreciated.

Requirements, hit dice, maneuvers granted and readied, stances, skill points and class skills are the same so far, though I'm considering adding 10 ranks of martial lore to the requirements

{table=head] Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Maneuvers Known | Maneuvers Readied | Stances Known | Special
1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Study of nine +1
2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Dual stance
3rd | +2 | +1 | +1 | +3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Perfect form (strikes)
4th | +3 | +1 | +1 | +4 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Counter Stance
5th | +3 | +1 | +1 | +4 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Study of nine +2
6th | +4 | +2 | +2 | +5 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Perfect form (stances)
7th | +5 | +2 | +2 | +5 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Extended boost
8th | +6 | +2 | +2 | +6 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Eyes of the Master
9th | +6 | +3 | +3 | +6 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Martial Genius, Study of nine +3
[/table]
Study of Nine (Ex): At each master of nine level, choose a discipline. You gain a +1 mastery bonus on attack rolls made when initiating a strike from that discipline and a bonus equal to your class level on damage rolls made when executing a strike from that discipline. You may not select the same discipline twice. The attack bonus increases to +2 at 5th level and to +3 at 9th level.
Dual stance (Ex): Starting a second level, you can choose to not lose your current stance when you enter a different stance from another discipline. The amount of time you can spend in two stances is limited. You can use this ability to gain the benefits of two stances for a maximum of 2 rounds per class level each day, split up as you desire among multiple use and multiple stances.
Perfect Form (Ex): Your extensive training has raised your stances and strikes to a level that few have attained.
Perfect Strike: Beginning at third level, you initiate your maneuvers with greater fluidity and grace. The save DC (if any) of any maneuver you initiate increases by 1
Perfect Stance: Beginning at sixth level, your stances become less rigid, allowing you react to fill the openings enemies could use to attack you. The bonus granted by your dodge feat increases to half your Intelligence modifier if you are a warblade, half your Charisma modifier if you are a crusader or half your wisdom modifier if you are a swordsage. (round down)
Counter Stance (Ex): From fourth level on, whenever you initiate a counter maneuver, you can change your stance as part of the counter's action, even if it is not your turn.
Extended boost (Ex): From seventh level on, whenever you initiate a boost maneuver, you may have the effects of that boost last for an additional round. You may not initiate a second boost or recover or exchange any maneuvers while under the effect of an extended boost.
Eyes of the Master (Ex): Beginning at eighth level, when an opponent you threaten attacks you, you may expend a counter maneuver you have readied to gain the effects of the Pierce Magical Concealment feat against that opponent for a number of rounds equal to the level of the counter you expended or until you no longer threaten that opponent.
Martial Genius (Ex): When an ally or opponent initiates a maneuver you do not already know, you may make a martial lore check with DC equal to 10+opponent's initiator level+level of maneuver initiated. If you succeed, you can gain rudimentary understanding of that maneuver. The maneuver is added to your list of maneuvers readied for a number of rounds equal to 10 minus the level of the maneuver or until you initiate it; your initiator level for this copied maneuver is equal to your master of nine level plus half your other class levels. This copied maneuver can not be exchanged for another maneuver with Adaptive Style.

[playswithfire]

One thing that's not there that I'd also like an opinion on; I was considering changing dual stance to work like dervish dance. Uses per day increasing by 1 every two levels and lasting for (probably) ranks in Martial Lore / 2 rounds. Would people prefer that to the current 2 rounds per class level per day? or is that a bad idea?

[Arbitrarity]

I like Dual Stance the way it is, personally.

This class, however, is fairly powerful for a non-caster PrC.

The only reason this is really true is because of the totally insane number of manuvers available to a character using the class. While you can still only pick up 7 of the 9 disciplines' capstones, it's still fairly insane. This is probably well balanced by the prerequisites, however. This class is surely now a very good choice, even if it requires a lot of feats.

Extended boost is fairly strong, though possibly not too much so.

However, a warblade with 14 manuvers readied scares me. And 23 manuvers known. And 7 stances.

Study of nine is pretty damn potent. I didn't notice the clause about picking a option each level.

Now, to qualify for the class is still a pain...
Warblade, human (Other races can put dodge in the something)
1 Dodge
1 Adaptive Style
3 Something
5 Improved init
6 Martial Study (something)
9 Blind Fight
9 Imp unarmed Strike

Swordsage, human (other races need unarmed variant to qualify by level 11)
1 Dodge
1 Adaptive Style
3 IUS (not needed with unarmed variant)
6 Blind Fight
9 Imp Init

Crusader.... Human :smallyuk:
1 Adaptive Style
1 Dodge
3 Imp init
6 IUS
9 Blind Fight
12 Martial Study
15 Martial Study
18 Martial Study

Yeah, Crusaders can't get in without multiclassing. But that's OK.

[playswithfire]

Thanks for the feedback

I like Dual Stance the way it is, personally.

I don't dislike it; it just seemed like a parallel could be drawn to dervish and there was an alternative way to implement it.



This class, however, is fairly powerful for a non-caster PrC.

The only reason this is really true is because of the totally insane number of manuvers available to a character using the class. While you can still only pick up 7 of the 9 disciplines' capstones, it's still fairly insane. This is probably well balanced by the prerequisites, however. This class is surely now a very good choice, even if it requires a lot of feats.

Even with the extended version, it's hard to simultaneously meet the prerequisite number of maneuvers and initiator levels to get 6 or 7 capstones(unless I'm missing something; I've tried to do the math to get all 9 with the old version, which is impossible in non-gestalt without lots of those maneuver items, but I haven't tried for six or 7). If 7 is possible, I think it's only because of the capstone with no prerequisite maneuvers.



Extended boost is fairly strong, though possibly not too much so.

I realized that was one of the more powerful effects. Given that you will have many maneuvers ready, I could maybe change the name to Prolong Boost and it would say 'In the round after you have initiated a boost maneuver, you may expend another boost maneuver you have readied to regain the effect of last round's boost. You can not prolong the same boost in two consecutive rounds' if it seems overpowering.



However, a warblade with 14 manuvers readied scares me. And 23 manuvers known. And 7 stances.

He basically ends up with the options of a swordsage ... a full BAB swordsage with a nicer recovery mechanism... yeah, a warblade who dedicates himself to becoming a master of nine does end up a bit scary by level 20, but really everyone can be a bit scary by level 20. That's a good point, though, and fears like that are why I want the feedback.



Study of nine is pretty damn potent. I didn't notice the clause about picking a option each level.

At level 5, it's less powerful than the current mastery of nine, since it'll only apply to five of the six (minimum) disciplines you know and it only gives +5 damage to those strikes instead of +6. By level 9, it ends up with an extra +1 to hit and, at most, 3 more damage than a 5th level master of nine under the current system.



Now, to qualify for the class is still a pain...
Warblade, human (Other races can put dodge in the something)
1 Dodge
1 Adaptive Style
3 Something
5 Improved init
6 Martial Study (something)
9 Blind Fight
9 Imp unarmed Strike

Swordsage, human (other races need unarmed variant to qualify by level 11)
1 Dodge
1 Adaptive Style
3 IUS (not needed with unarmed variant)
6 Blind Fight
9 Imp Init

Crusader.... Human :smallyuk:
1 Adaptive Style
1 Dodge
3 Imp init
6 IUS
9 Blind Fight
12 Martial Study
15 Martial Study
18 Martial Study

Yeah, Crusaders can't get in without multiclassing. But that's OK.

Yeah, master of nine pretty much requires dedicating a good portion of your build to getting into it, which is as it should be.

One of the things I wanted to do was to build on the requirements that currently don't do anything once you're in the class; dodge and blind-fight mainly, since most people probably wouldn't take those if they weren't required.

[Arbitrarity]

True, and that's a pretty good idea. Martial Genius is potentially powerful, but unlikely to come up that often, except against other initiators. It's also hard to make the DC.

It's hard to qualify for all the capstones, but a swordsage I built made 6 of them, so it's not too difficult at all. Just requires very careful building, which will probably weaken you anyways.

Perfect stance is crusader < warblade < swordsage, with the stat distributions of those classes.

Actually, let's see on that qualifying note.

Swordsage 11/Mo9 9.

1 Lost at 4
1 Lost at 6
1 Lost at 8
1 Lost at 10
1 Sapphire Nightmare Blade
1 Counter Charge
2 Stone Bones
3 Cloak of Deception
4 Burning Brand
4 Emerald Razor
5 Mind over Body
6 Feigned Opening
6 Zephyr Dance
7 Searing Blade
8 Firesnake
8 Bonesplitting Strike
9 Shadow Stride
10 Soaring Throw
10 Leaping Flame
11 Stalker in the Night
12 Tactical Strike
12 White Raven Tactics
13 Vanguard Strike
14 Revitalizing Strike
14 Wall of Blades
15 Iron Heart Surge
16 Iron Heart Endurance
16 White Raven Hammer
17 Strike of righteous vitality
18 Five Shadow Creeping Ice enervation Strike
18 Time Stands Still
18 (martial Study) Inferno Blast
19 Strike of Perfect Clarity
20 War Master's Charge
20 Tornado Throw

1 Step of the Wind
2 Child of Shadow
5 Assassin's Stance
9 Hearing the Air
13 Press the Advantage
15 Aura of Perfect Order
17 Supreme Blade Parry
19 Ghostly Defense

Replace the Desert wind with any discipline you prefer. It all fits easily :smallbiggrin: There's actually a lot of free space, but if you want the capstones of the three disciplines not granted by swordsage, it's tricky.

[playswithfire]

Ah, yes; my version can get all six swordsage capstones pretty easy since you end up with 30 maneuvers known and you need 29 to get them and their prerequisites, with maneuver swapping bringing it down to 27 if you can get two swapping levels in the last 4. A swordsage 11/current master of nine 5/swordsage +4 can get all 6 swordsage capstones too, though they have to be more careful about it (2 maneuvers less of wiggle room).

1 Desert Wind lvl 1; swapped at 17
1 Setting Sun lvl 1; swapped at 19
2 Shadow Hand lvl 1
3 Diamond Mind lvl 2
4 Setting Sun lvl 2
4 Shadow Hand lvl 2
5 Tiger Claw lvl 3
6 Desert Wind lvl 3
6 Diamond Mind lvl 3
7 Setting Sun lvl 4
8 Shadow Hand lvl 4
8 Tiger Claw lvl 4
9 Desert Wind lvl 5
10 Diamond Mind lvl 5
10 Setting Sun lvl 5
11 Shadow Hand lvl 6
12 Tiger Claw lvl 6
12 Desert Wind lvl 6
13 Diamond Mind lvl 7
14 Setting Sun lvl 7
14 Shadow Hand lvl 7
15 Tiger Claw lvl 8
16 anything but stone dragon lvl 8
16 anything but stone dragon lvl 8
17 Inferno Blade
17 Tornado Throw
18 Time Stands Still
19 Fave Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike
19 Mountain Tombstone Strike
20 Feral Death Blow

It's getting the capstone of one of your non-standard disciplines that's hard and takes some tricky multiclassing and probably prestige classing to get the initiator levels high enough and, admittedly, my version might make that a bit easier.

I figure a DC 39 check to copy a maneuver as done by a lvl 20 adept was pretty fair. And I figured it was ok to make that powerful since it wouldn't get used very often, except in PvP matches where it will be very entertaining and in parties (of ECL at least 16) with more than one martial adept.

[Arbitrarity]

Still not too bad. All the capstones are strikes, and you waste your manuvers known on junky prerequisites for most of them. I think it's probably OK, maybe a bit stronger than the base classes. Of course, that means it needs a bit of a nerf... Hm.

I suppose the lost class features from the last 9 levels of classes hurt enough. 15 pts of Steely resolve, a smite, and mettle. Dual Boost and Stance Mastery, as well as minor other effects.

[playswithfire]

Swordsages give up the least in terms of class features to make it in (+1 to initiative checks, a second defensive stance, and improved evasion) other than dual boost, but since that's limited used/day, it's a bit eh. The difference in maneuvers known is less for them too, though. Readied Maneuvers and Stances still get a nice boost.

Don't prestige classes have to be at a bit better than the base classes that can qualify for them, at least situationally? else no one would bother taking them. I', perfectly willing to accept the need to nerf this a bit, though. Any suggestions?

Would you go with Prolong Boost rather than Extended Boost?

[Douglas]

Prolong Boost is a bit too weak, I think. Simply allowing you to, for example, use Inferno Blade or Raging Mongoose instead of downgrading to Searing Blade or Dancing Mongoose is not very powerful. By comparison, Extended Boost does not require spending another maneuver readied - but you have plenty already so that's not a major cost - and frees up your swift action in the second round - but forbids a large category of the effects you would use that swift action on. Powerful, yes, but not overly so imo, especially for an ability so far into a class with such high prereqs.

[Stycotl]

this is intriguing. i actually like your drvish idea for the dual stance, though if you do it, it would probably have to come at a higher level. eyes of the master doesn't jive well in my opinion with the rest of the class. i understand your reasonign for wanting it there, for blind fighting's sake, but i just don't think it fits.

maybe just give the guy blindsense out to 5 or 10 feet or something.

even that seems kinda out of place. you could probably just change the prereqs without hurting anyone's feelings.

[playswithfire]

Thematically, a martial arts master having blind-fight makes a certain amount of sense, which is probably why they have it in there; even if he can't see you, he can hear you coming, feel the air move around you when you attack etc.

I do admit eyes of the master does seem a bit out of place (and possibly a bit wordy), though. What if it were to give him some version of Pierce Magical Concealment? Either just give it to him as a bonus feat without having to take Mage Slayer or still have it be a counter. 'When an opponent with a miss chance granted by magical or supernatural (which should cover maneuvers) concealment attacks you, you may expend a counter you have readied as an immediate action to ignore that opponent's (magical or supernatural) miss chance for 1 round.'

Thanks, everyone, for the feedback

[playswithfire]

Couple little tweaks, mainly to Eyes of the Master as I'm going to ask about using this in a game.

[playswithfire]

Possible Revision

{table=head] Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Maneuvers Known | Maneuvers Readied | Stances Known | Special
1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Study of nine +1
2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | 1 | 1 | 0 | Dual stance
3rd | +2 | +1 | +1 | +3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Perfect form (strikes)
4th | +3 | +1 | +1 | +4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | Counter Stance
5th | +3 | +1 | +1 | +4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Study of nine +2
6th | +4 | +2 | +2 | +5 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Perfect form (stances)
7th | +5 | +2 | +2 | +5 | 1 | 1 | 0 | Extended boost
8th | +6 | +2 | +2 | +6 | 1 | 1 | 0 | Eyes of the Master
9th | +6 | +3 | +3 | +6 | 2 | 0 | 1 | Martial Genius, Study of nine +3
[/table]

ToB: 5 levels, 8 maneuvers learned, 5 readied, 2 stances
My first: 9 levels, 14 maneuvers learned, 9 readied, 4 stances
Revised: 9 levels, 12 maneuvers learned, 6 readied, 3 stances

So the revised version, compared to the ToB version, lasts 4 levels longer and gets 4 new maneuvers, 1 more readied and 1 more stance

[The Demented One]

That looks to be much better.