Goliath ToB mageslayer

[Talya]

Trying to convince a friend to play a companion to my Goliath archer described in another thread. One of the things he was thinking about was a "mageslayer" specialized melee type. (With the mageslayer feat, of course.)

I'm going to build him a sample character to show how effective a goliath martial adept could be.

Which other feats and which martial disciplines help most with that? I'm really partial to warblade (especially in a big party where white raven could be godlike), but crusader's okay too. (I do see there's a devoted spirit stance where 5' steps provoke AOOs.)

He would be level 5 or 6 after buyoff.

[Frosty]

Well, at level 6, he'd qualify to take that stance, but he'd need to spend a feat on it becuase crusader stance progression SUCKS. Can he take any flaws?

Feats for a typical lockdown build: EWP (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer. If he wants to absolutely be able to lockdown at level 6, he'd have to get Stand Still as well.

To be honest, I prefer mage-slayer type builds with at least a smttering of Fighter or Barbarian classes because you are really hurting for feats. Wolf Totem Barbarian can give you Improved Trip for free as a bonus feat at 2nd level (no Combat Expertise needed) and Fighters can give you bonus feats of course to do whatever you want.

[Talya]

I think he wants to use that Goliath 3d6, 20/x4 hammer (Do goliaths get weapon familiarity with that?), making the spiked chain lockdown less probable, and really limiting his use as a mageslayer. :(

[Hadrian_Emrys]

If he's got his heart set on the Goliath Greathammer, an upercharger build would be the better choice. I like your idea better, but I'm a bigger fan of control than power anyway. *shrug* To each their own.

[Talya]

I just like the idea of him locking down an area while my goliath zen-archer with a greatbow picks them off one by one.

Hey, what would the reach be on a large spiked chain?

[Frosty]

WHy not go with Dungeoncrasher? Take 6 leves of Fighter, and the rest Warblade. He ban bullrush people into walls for mucho damage.

[Frosty]

I just like the idea of him locking down an area while my goliath zen-archer with a greatbow picks them off one by one.

Hey, what would the reach be on a large spiked chain?

Weapon Reach is not dependant on weapon size. It is dependent on the wielder's size. And since goliaths are Medium when it comes to reach, the reach is only 10ft. And he's not a humanoid, so Enlarge person won't work. However, there is the Mountain Rage substitution level for Goliath Barbarians which gives him a size increase when he rages.

[Talya]

Weapon Reach is not dependant on weapon size. It is dependent on the wielder's size. And since goliaths are Medium when it comes to reach, the reach is only 10ft. And he's not a humanoid, so Enlarge person won't work. However, there is the Mountain Rage substitution level for Goliath Barbarians which gives him a size increase when he rages.

Hmm. I knew that was true for normal adjacent weapons, but figured, you know, a longer whip or chain would have some advantage that way.

Although I suppose that means a goliath could use some medium 2h reach weapons 1 handed and still get reach.

[Frosty]

I don't believe Goliaths can wield 2h reach weapons in one hand at all. Powerful Build doesn't let them do that. Even Monkey Grip doesn't let them do that.

[RandomLunatic]

Reach is dependant on creature size, not weapon size. So, for a Goliath, 10'.

If you want a Lockdownish build, Crusader is probably better, due to the Thicket of Blades stance (IIRC), plus he still has access to White Raven. For feats, you may want to use Stand Still instead of Improved Trip if you intend to pair this character with an Archer, as tripping people will make the Archer's job harder.

Multiclassing to Barbarian just to pick up Mountain Rage might be good, as this will make you Large, and push your reach out to 20'.

So maybe something like Brb 1/Ftr 2/Crd 3? Take EWP: Chain, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Mage Slayer, and Extra Rage. Hmmm...

I wish I had ToB.

[Pureflight]

I think a large size char [effectively] with a large size spike chain still only gets a reach of 15 ft. Now, if you took monkey grip, a large size creature with a huge spiked chain should have a reach of 20 ft [or maybe 25, if my conversions are bad], which combined with combat reflexes and Thicket of Blades... yeah so thats good.

If he loves on the Goliath Hammer, he could do warblade into Bloodstorm Blade, where he can throw that biggo hammer at everyone in the room. At 2nd level of the PrC, you can use str instead of dex for your throws, use power attack, AND use an iron heart maneuver. You get a couple fighter feats with the PrC as well.

Alternatively, he could use the highly-overlooked improved overrun. :smalltongue: Prone enemies can't run down archers. but he could only overrun one guy at a time, and he'd be running all over the place, leaving the archer open to attack...

maybe a ranged sunder deal, using mountain hammer and other stone dragon maneuvers to ignore hardness. Take power attack, brutal throw, improved sunder, and ranged sunder, and you can take out baddies' weapons b4 they get close to the archer.

looking back, i dunno how much i like these ideas, but maybe they'll get other people thinking :smalleek:

[Frosty]

I think a large size char [effectively] with a large size spike chain still only gets a reach of 15 ft. Now, if you took monkey grip, a large size creature with a huge spiked chain should have a reach of 20 ft [or maybe 25, if my conversions are bad], which combined with combat reflexes and Thicket of Blades... yeah so thats good.
:

You are completely wrong. A goliath can be wielding a colossal or Tiny Spiked Chain, and his reach will still be 10 feet according to game rules.

[Talya]

So a mountain raging goliath would have a reach of 20' with a spiked chain?

[Frosty]

Correct. He is large, and his normal reach is 10, and his reach reach is 20.

[Proven_Paradox]

For anti-mage, Crusader is a bit better than Warblade in my mind; the charisma to will saves means he'll be a bit harder to shut down with save-or-sucks, and at higher levels mettle is a pretty big deal. If you want to be a mage slayer, the best way is a reach weapon, along with Thicket of Blades, and all the shut-down stuff as normal. Really, if he's wanting to go with a goliath greathammer, he needs to do something besides mage slayer. Not that that's a bad choice, it's just that reach weapons really, really make it easier.

[Frosty]

And the great thing is, AFIAK, Mageslayer works against Spell-like ability-using creatures as well, so you can screw over Warlocks, or...Devils :smallbiggrin:

[Hal]

What about Pierce Magical Concealment? How helpful is it?

[Reel On, Love]

What about Pierce Magical Concealment? How helpful is it?

It's very helpful against casters--the issue is, is it helpful enough to warrant the Blind-Fight prereq? And it isn't, really. Pierce Magical Protection is the better choice.

Thicket of Blades is pretty much a must for mage-killers.

[Frosty]

Blind fight isn't *horrid*...it helps vs normal concealment.

[Talya]

Feats for a typical lockdown build: EWP (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer. If he wants to absolutely be able to lockdown at level 6, he'd have to get Stand Still as well.


Where's this feat? Can't find it even in the Crystal Keep indices.

[Draz74]

Where's this feat? Can't find it even in the Crystal Keep indices.

Expanded Psionics Handbook. Which explains it missing from Crystal Keep -- the guy who runs Crystal Keep hates psionics. Even though Stand Still is a [General] feat, not psionic at all.


Blind fight isn't *horrid*...it helps vs normal concealment.

Especially if you're a Warblade, and can take it as a bonus feat (out of a semi-poor list of choices).

[Vortling]

Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) from the online srd.

[Talya]

Damn. With 2 flaws, he can do all of this with 2 barbarian, 4 crusader.

[Proven_Paradox]

Honestly, I think that's indicative of a problem with flaws more than anything.

[Frosty]

I love flaws. They help make feat-intensive character concepts viable at lower levels. Melee types need all the love they can get.

[Talya]

Actually, only need one flaw.