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View Full Version : Barbarian full attack on a charge?



Talya
2008-03-23, 11:05 AM
Which variant is this, and where is it?

Thinker
2008-03-23, 11:15 AM
Lion Totem variant from Complete Champion.

Swooper
2008-03-23, 11:23 AM
Technically, it's called Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, but yeah.

Frosty
2008-03-23, 11:42 AM
I've also heard the book being called the "Complete Cheese" before.

Pureflight
2008-03-23, 01:31 PM
I've also heard the book being called the "Complete Cheese" before.

yeah, between the alternate class features and the ridiculous devotion feats, Complete Champ takes the cake. As well it should, being the last 3.5 book they'll release. A shame, because i was really hoping for a "complete slayer" to make my fighter characters even better at hitting things.

Vael Nir
2008-03-23, 05:42 PM
how many DM's actually allow this? None of mine would, and I wouldn't either unless I was planning to have the BBEG and his higher level minions be ToB classes/batman/clericzilla.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-23, 05:43 PM
how many DM's actually allow this? None of mine would, and I wouldn't either unless I was planning to have the BBEG and his higher level minions be ToB classes/batman/clericzilla.

Some people actually like to play at higher power levels.

Cuddly
2008-03-24, 12:49 AM
It's not a huge deal, so long as the rest of the melee characters are playing with similarily absurd levels of damage output. I mean, as long as you let casters use their save-or-die or save-or-fall-asleep-while-the-rogue-saws-your-face-off, why shouldn't the melee's also get a save-or-explode?

Damage is about all they have going for them, anyway.

Nebo_
2008-03-24, 12:57 AM
I believe that they got the 6th level and 1st level susbtitutions mixed up. Pounce isn't much use to a Barbarian at level one, but it allows for the iterative attack at level 6; Whirling Frenzy notwithstanding

Thinker
2008-03-24, 01:22 AM
how many DM's actually allow this? None of mine would, and I wouldn't either unless I was planning to have the BBEG and his higher level minions be ToB classes/batman/clericzilla.

I allow it, as does the other guy who DMs DnD with our group. Devotion feats and everything.

Chronicled
2008-03-24, 01:26 AM
I'd allow it, depending on the group. It really depends on what the other players are doing, and what sort of game they want.

ocato
2008-03-24, 01:31 AM
Pounce doesn't really unbalance barbarians when you put them next to CoDzilla, Batman, ToB, etc etc.

So, meh, let it go.

tyckspoon
2008-03-24, 01:35 AM
Pounce doesn't really unbalance barbarians when you put them next to CoDzilla, Batman, ToB, etc etc.

So, meh, let it go.

It does tend to unbalance melee builds that are already effective when they can pick it up for a one-level dip. It wouldn't be anywhere near so bad if the Pounce came in at 6th level, and the obviousness of this is what has many people suspecting the progression of the variant probably got screwed up.

Vael Nir
2008-03-24, 09:08 AM
I'm playing with CoDzilla and batman... and the DM told me and the cleric we needed to tone down our characters. I was playing a TWF Fighter/Tempest/Champion of Corellon/Swashbuckler with ridiculous stats/gear. He could, if lucky, do something like 560 damage in a round. The cleric was unhittable with his buffs, and the DM just couldn't handle it... so he said "no more ToB (the cleric had 2 lvls of crusader), tone down your damage and we'll get back to a reasonable level".

So I swapped out my crappy tempest levels, took the arcane stunt swashbuckler variant, one level of exotic weapons master to get uncanny blow (using a thinblade issued by corellon's avatar), shock trooper, leap attack and a lot of nice utility/defensive feats and maxed my champion levels . Still have to try this out, he'll have nice charge damage now and better defense... but if I imagine him with pounce, the 500 damage charge would be there again.

I'm itching to play a warblade or swordsage or something, but none of the DMs we currently have will allow this. :/

Frosty
2008-03-24, 12:04 PM
If 2 levels of Crusader is causing the Cleric to be overpowered, then something is wrong. And it's not the Crusader class.

TempusCCK
2008-03-24, 12:31 PM
Unless you're playing with a ridiculous amount of optimization, and are making an Ubercharger build, pounce shouldn't be an issue. Doubling damage a bazillion times is when you start running into problems, especially when no one else is doing similar levels of optimization.

Craig1f
2008-03-24, 12:50 PM
I say that it doesn't unbalance things unless you take a one-level dip to get the ability.

Some other thoughts, enforce the RP. My character had to switch from the Fox Tribe in game to the Lion Tribe, and roleplay that he injured his hamstring in training (to get his speed down). His base speed was 20' for a few weeks, until his hamstring had time to heal.

Also, I recommend that you don't allow any "extra" attacks for any reason on a pounce. Haste should not give a further extra attack at the highest bonus. The extra attacks from Pounce are enough.

If you want to take it one step further ... my dm didn't do this, but consider only giving the +2 attack bonus on the first swing. Iterative attacks would not get the +2 attack bonus.

Last, one more thing you can do (my DM also doesn't do) is say that all attacks must be directed towards the charge target. Allowing attacks against targets you're not charging doesn't entirely make sense. In either case, you definitely should not get the +2 charge attack bonus on any creature other than the charge target.

Vael Nir
2008-03-24, 04:56 PM
If 2 levels of Crusader is causing the Cleric to be overpowered, then something is wrong. And it's not the Crusader class.

the defensive stances and maneuvers he was using (to force monsters to go for him) were annoying the DM. Especially since he couldn't actually hit the cleric... anything that could hit him would one-round anybody else in the party. So a couple of buffs were banned... the fact that the DM didn't know about DMM persist cheese before the cleric built his character sure didn't help.

Frosty
2008-03-24, 04:58 PM
You do know that Persisted spells are just as dispellable as regular spells right? Enemy mages should regularly dispel the Cleric to keep him at a reasonable power level. This is why I prefer DMM Quicken.

And what stance? the Glare?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-24, 05:20 PM
You do know that Persisted spells are just as dispellable as regular spells right? Enemy mages should regularly dispel the Cleric to keep him at a reasonable power level. This is why I prefer DMM Quicken.

And what stance? the Glare?

Thicket of Blades combined with Stand Still is my guess.

Here's the thing about Persisted Spells. You cast them all at once. So that means you activate a Bead of Karma while borrowing your Wizard Friends Ioun Stone and wearing a Ring of Enduring Arcana. Then you cast you spells at CL X+9 where X is your level, so that any Wizard of your level has a 0% chance of dispelling your spells. Then you let them waste combat actions on that.

Thinker
2008-03-24, 05:23 PM
You do know that Persisted spells are just as dispellable as regular spells right? Enemy mages should regularly dispel the Cleric to keep him at a reasonable power level. This is why I prefer DMM Quicken.

And what stance? the Glare?

Its great if you can get both though.

Frosty
2008-03-24, 05:39 PM
Thicket of Blades combined with Stand Still is my guess.

Here's the thing about Persisted Spells. You cast them all at once. So that means you activate a Bead of Karma while borrowing your Wizard Friends Ioun Stone and wearing a Ring of Enduring Arcana. Then you cast you spells at CL X+9 where X is your level, so that any Wizard of your level has a 0% chance of dispelling your spells. Then you let them waste combat actions on that.

I don't allow Beads of Karma in my games for this reason :smallbiggrin:

When I DM, I allow DMM: Persist. I just don't let my players make their buffs undispellable. Or, they take domains and items that give bonuses to their dispel checks. Hey, DMs can optimize too. Either way, I make sure the enemy have at least a 40% chance of dispelling the player's buffs.

Vael Nir
2008-03-25, 08:19 AM
Well, when our Psion is around, we do have a buffer that counters one greater dispel magic. Also, spell turning is available. We've been dispelled from time to time.

I'm not sure about the stance, I'm describing the effects I saw ingame, didn't read that much into ToB yet.

MorkaisChosen
2008-03-25, 08:37 AM
Pounce can come from other places- for example, Psionic Lion's Charge, a level 2 psychic warrior power. You can learn that at 4th level, so it effectively costs you 1 point of BAB and some class features (although you get 2 bonus feats) to be able to cast it a couple of times a day.

I haven't actually played it yet, but I'd like to try a Psychic Warrior with multiple natural weapons (Claws of the Beast and Bite of the Wolf) or TWF and Rhino Hide...