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AmberVael
2008-03-23, 04:39 PM
Okay, I've seen hundreds of threads and topics talking about "wizards are amazing" and how they can avoid everything, and seen demonstrations in duels and vs threads that they can generally have a much higher chance of winning than any other class.
Quite honestly though, I've seen and heard all this, but I've never been shown an example. True, for the most part it is theoretical, but surely someone out there has played the batman wizard in a format that can be displayed across the internet? Play by post game, perhaps?
I'm curious to see just how well it really pans out, how untouchable, amazing, and versatile a wizard can be. I've seen wizards played and used before, but nothing like the claim of their full potential. I'm a wee bit doubtful that they're truly everything that people have said they are. Seeing all I have, I'm not going to argue that they aren't any good (or one of the best) but I'm skeptical of them having a counter to everything and being able to maintain that all day (or until they decide to rest).

So, anyone have a real example besides vaguely posted stats or PvP duels?

Frosty
2008-03-23, 04:47 PM
I am just about to start playing one. In the teens forl evels, not level 20, so I can't quite use all the cheap tricks yet. But, with the ability to Spontaneously cast any spell from the divination school, I can really be prepared for the next day's challenges. The trick is that you don't need to go all day by yourself. You have 3 other lackeys to help you stretch your resources out. You can also summon a Magnificent Mansion when you're completely empty.

Also, very importantly, you can scribe scrolls and use wands. Scrolls are like extra spell slots that you can only use once, but they're cheap enough to replenish as you go. With a decent amount of scrolls and wands, you can go through the day with no problems. You won't be using it all up at once, but with them, you're not deathly afraid of being completely empty.

rockdeworld
2008-03-23, 05:07 PM
I just want to mention that really nothing is ever everything that people say it is.

Edit: Sorry, you said besides PvP duels, so ignore this if you want.
Take this example fight between a L20 wizard and 4 L20 fighters.

Fighters: 200 HP, Wizard 40 HP

Initiative
Fighter 18
Fighter 22
Fighter 16
Wizard 10

Round 1
Wizard: Celerity + Time Stop for 4 rounds (a 6th level spell)

---Time Stop Begins---

Round 1-1
Wizard is Dazed

Round 1-2
Wizard uses Greater Rod of Metamagic (Quicken) and Greater Rod of Metamagic (Maximize) to cast 2 Maximized Delayed Blast Fireballs, delayed until immediately after the end of Time Stop (less than 3 rounds).

Round 1-3
Wizard does the same thing as above, except that the 2nd Fireball isn't maximized. Now there are 4 Fireballs, 3 Maximized, and all 4 7th level spell slots are used up.

Round 1-4
Wizard casts Quickened Mirror Image (Level 8 Spell) and Prismatic Sphere.

---Time Stop Ends---

All 4 Fireballs go off, with save DCs of 22. The Fighters have a will save of +11, so they each save on 2 of them, the first two fireballs.

The first 3 fireballs were maximized for 20*6 = 120 damage, and the fourth deals on average 60 damage. The fighters each take 60+60+120+60 = 300 damage.

The 4 fighters die before getting a chance to even act. The wizard used the following spell slots: 6th, 7th, 7th, 7th, 7th, 8th, 9th.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-23, 05:09 PM
Okay, I've seen hundreds of threads and topics talking about "wizards are amazing" and how they can avoid everything, and seen demonstrations in duels and vs threads that they can generally have a much higher chance of winning than any other class.
Quite honestly though, I've seen and heard all this, but I've never been shown an example. True, for the most part it is theoretical, but surely someone out there has played the batman wizard in a format that can be displayed across the internet? Play by post game, perhaps?
I'm curious to see just how well it really pans out, how untouchable, amazing, and versatile a wizard can be. I've seen wizards played and used before, but nothing like the claim of their full potential. I'm a wee bit doubtful that they're truly everything that people have said they are. Seeing all I have, I'm not going to argue that they aren't any good (or one of the best) but I'm skeptical of them having a counter to everything and being able to maintain that all day (or until they decide to rest).

So, anyone have a real example besides vaguely posted stats or PvP duels?

The problem is that it's hard to convince someone you don't know that you won't ruin their fun. I've played a couple games as such a Wizard in person, with a very good friend DMing who knows me, knows the kind of crazy things I do and also knew that I would not do it if I was killing anyone else's fun.

The Problem with PbP games are:
1) Most start at fairly low level and level once or twice before they die.
2) Go to the first ECL 7 or higher game you see, try and get accepted with a Build of Wizard 5/Incantatrix X. Tell me how that goes. No matter what your backstory, no matter what you where going to do with those abilities, they will think you will destroy the game.

PbP is just low power, because you can't really trust strangers on the internet, and playing a high power DnD game requires trust.

Also: Rockdeworld, weirdest two characters I've ever seen. Wizard with low Init? A save DC of 20? That would mean 17 int, the absolute minimum to cast the spell.

AmberVael
2008-03-23, 05:14 PM
*snip*
The fighter dies before getting a chance to even act.

Congratulations. You just proved that a wizard can kill a fighter in a PbP duel.
Which is exactly what I said I didn't want. I know that a wizard can do that (if properly prepared. If not properly prepared, it would likely take a few rounds for them to obliterate the fighter instead of one.)

My curiosity is how well do they work in a campaign, which you have to admit is substantially different.

CoV: I'm aware that is a common thing not to allow stuff like that (or to just stop playing), but I figure someone (I mean, Frosty is apparently about to do it) has done it before. We've got hundreds and hundreds of PbP games just here, really.
Maybe it's a vain hope for me to want to see a Batman wizard played, but I'll keep waiting for someone to post a link.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-23, 05:29 PM
CoV: I'm aware that is a common thing not to allow stuff like that (or to just stop playing), but I figure someone (I mean, Frosty is apparently about to do it) has done it before. We've got hundreds and hundreds of PbP games just here, really.
Maybe it's a vain hope for me to want to see a Batman wizard played, but I'll keep waiting for someone to post a link.

I would love to be that example, I check as often as I can in the Finding Players section for anything approaching a game I could play that type of character. Right now, if something came up, I would play the Wizard that is the first character in my post over in the Ideal Party thread.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-03-23, 05:33 PM
'Getting prepared ahead of time' is a very, very difficult thing to achieve. Even with the usual arsenal of divination spell list (and perhaps Spontaneous Divination, too) you'll always need the DM's cooporation or else all is in vain. So buy your DM some pizza, take him/her to a movie and if all else fails just look behind that impregnable wall known as DM screen.

Seriously, it' all theoretical that a given wizard will know anything about the future! Heck, even Divination or Augury spells are all in Cleric spell list, not Wizard. So until you get Foresight at 17th level (or use a scroll, perhaps?) and even with that spell you can't even possibly know what's going to happen to you/your party within the next 24 hours. So it's all theoretical as far as I'm concerned.

If you ask me, I'd say the name 'Batman' is NOT something so cool and so powerful, but an excuse for having all the crucial spells in a PvP simulation. No more, no less. :smallannoyed:


p.s. I'd be only too happy to find out that I'm wrong. Maybe someone can point out a proper spell to look into the future, perhaps?

Solo
2008-03-23, 05:34 PM
I would love to be that example, I check as often as I can in the Finding Players section for anything approaching a game I could play that type of character. Right now, if something came up, I would play the Wizard that is the first character in my post over in the Ideal Party thread.

Well, count me in for any games with Batman. I'll probably play a Sorcerer.

Screw taloring my spells to fit the situation, I'm hitting the situation with my spells so hard that it runs away and cries.

Ascension
2008-03-23, 05:37 PM
Starting next Sunday I'm going to be playing a semi-batman sorcerer in a four man party with two PC fighters and an NPC healer. In an attempt not to completely overshadow the fighters (which will be hard) I'm going to focus entirely on buffs, save-or-sucks, and battlefield control. No blasting, summoning, or save-or-die-ing because I want the fighters to have a chance to do some damage.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-23, 05:42 PM
'Getting prepared ahead of time' is a very, very difficult thing to achieve. Even with the usual arsenal of divination spell list (and perhaps Spontaneous Divination, too) you'll always need the DM's cooporation or else all is in vain. So buy your DM some pizza, take him/her to a movie and if all else fails just look behind that impregnable wall known as DM screen.

Seriously, it' all theoretical that a given wizard will know anything about the future! Heck, even Divination or Augury spells are all in Cleric spell list, not Wizard. So until you get Foresight at 17th level (or use a scroll, perhaps?) and even with that spell you can't even possibly know what's going to happen to you/your party within the next 24 hours. So it's all theoretical as far as I'm concerned.

If you ask me, I'd say the name 'Batman' is NOT something so cool and so powerful, but an excuse for having all the crucial spells in a PvP simulation. No more, no less. :smallannoyed:


p.s. I'd be only too happy to find out that I'm wrong. Maybe someone can point out a proper spell to look into the future, perhaps?

I think this is a major misconception about what Batman is. Yes sometimes he finds out what he is dealing with and then comes prepared. But a large part of the concept of Batman (as Solo has impeccably demonstrated with Ozymandius) is that Wizard spells are so good, and so all purpose, and Wizards have so many of them that a Wizard just prepares.

He doesn't prepare for something. He prepares a series of spells that allow him to instantly deal with 90% of situations in a way that heavily favors him, and to buy time for the other 10% so that he or his party can deal with them after forcing favorable conditions.

Solo, I would love to play a game with your Ozymandius and my ridiculously convoluted Wizard that needs a name. All we need is a crazy powerful Cleric and Druid and Beguiler and we can set about proving all the myths (nay Legends) of caster superiority.

Solo
2008-03-23, 05:42 PM
Starting next Sunday I'm going to be playing a semi-batman sorcerer in a four man party with two PC fighters and an NPC healer. In an attempt not to completely overshadow the fighters (which will be hard) I'm going to focus entirely on buffs, save-or-sucks, and battlefield control. No blasting, summoning, or save-or-die-ing because I want the fighters to have a chance to do some damage.

I'll let you know how it goes.

If you haven't already done so, check out the relentlessly self-promoted Solo's Stupendous Sorcerer Stratagems, linked to below.

And good luck on the game.


Say, if ya'll are going to play batman wizards, why not invite Sir Giacomo to play as the party monk?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-23, 05:46 PM
Say, if ya'll are going to play batman wizards, why not invite Sir Giacomo to play as the party monk?

We could invite him instead of the Druid. I mean, since Monks are so amazing that they can do 300 damage a round against equal CR enemies (as long as those enemies are Barbarian Chargers with Shocktrooper and no Karmic Strike/Robilair's Gambit who just got finished charging someone else.)

Frosty
2008-03-23, 05:54 PM
I think this is a major misconception about what Batman is. Yes sometimes he finds out what he is dealing with and then comes prepared. But a large part of the concept of Batman (as Solo has impeccably demonstrated with Ozymandius) is that Wizard spells are so good, and so all purpose, and Wizards have so many of them that a Wizard just prepares.

He doesn't prepare for something. He prepares a series of spells that allow him to instantly deal with 90% of situations in a way that heavily favors him, and to buy time for the other 10% so that he or his party can deal with them after forcing favorable conditions.

Solo, I would love to play a game with your Ozymandius and my ridiculously convoluted Wizard that needs a name. All we need is a crazy powerful Cleric and Druid and Beguiler and we can set about proving all the myths (nay Legends) of caster superiority.


Since I am going to to play a batman, or try to, can you enlighten me as to the spells you would prepare to deal with 90% of the situation? Assume you're level 13 or 14, and you've banned Necromancy, Enchantment, and Evocation. So no timestop, foresight, etc yet.

I'm goin to assume one would want lots of stuff like Solid Fog, Evard's Black Tentacles, Grease, Web, some save or dies, and some damage spells.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-23, 05:58 PM
If you haven't already done so, check out the relentlessly self-promoted Solo's Stupendous Sorcerer Stratagems, linked to below.

And good luck on the game.


Say, if ya'll are going to play batman wizards, why not invite Sir Giacomo to play as the party monk?


I read your sorcerer guide. As I stumbled upon it just as I was planning a chaotic good likable/friendly merchant sorcerer, the idea of using almost entirely nondamage spells was appealing to me. This is (as best as I remember) his first encounter.

Is THIS the sort of thing you mean?

Wizard the party has foiled twice before: Now, you've interfered with my plans for the last time! Prepare to die!
Sorcerer: Who are you? Can't we just talk about this?
Wizard: No! *whistles, teleports*
Wyvern: Rawr!
*everyone rolls init*
Paladin: 19
Wyvern: 1
Sorcerer: 3
Battlesorcerer: 15
Sorcerer says: Wait! I have a plan! Don't attack it yet! Don't even menace it!
Paladin waits.
Battlesorc waits.
Sorcerer Casts Rainbow Pattern. Wyvern fails will save.
Sorcerer lures dragon into middle of party via rainbow pattern.
Everyone readies actions.
Paladin full attacks.
Battlesorc uses sphere of flame
Sorcerer uses maximized ray of enfeeblement
Wyvern full attacks paladin.
Attack 6 hits for 1 damage.
Paladin full attacks wyvern.
Battlesorc uses sphere of cold.
Sorcerer uses heightened color spray. Wyvern fails will save.
Wyvern can't move.
Paladin full attacks *CRITICAL HIT*
Wyvern has died.


As you can see, I personally did no damage, but because of me neither did the enemy. I also managed to get it in range and flanked.

kme
2008-03-23, 06:25 PM
Since I am going to to play a batman, or try to, can you enlighten me as to the spells you would prepare to deal with 90% of the situation? Assume you're level 13 or 14, and you've banned Necromancy, Enchantment, and Evocation. So no timestop, foresight, etc yet.

I'm goin to assume one would want lots of stuff like Solid Fog, Evard's Black Tentacles, Grease, Web, some save or dies, and some damage spells.
Take o look at this guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956548), IMO it is very practical and realistic. Near the end it also has spell selection and equipment for two different wizards at levels 5 10 and 15, so check them. They are focused specialists, and have exactly those schools banned.

Renegade Paladin
2008-03-23, 06:26 PM
So, anyone have a real example besides vaguely posted stats or PvP duels?
No, because all these wonderful theories don't actually work in practice. You will not see a wizard dominating an entire campaign like that, because the DM can and will find monsters to foil whatever the wizard's shtick is. A wizard can be tremendously effective, but what he cannot do is dominate everything that comes his way by himself all day long. I've tried. It doesn't work. You only have so many spells prepared; you cannot conceivably prepare to beat everything that may come your way. Especially things like golems, which have very specific vulnerabilities, most of which would be uncommon as combat spells.

Frosty
2008-03-23, 06:27 PM
But Orb spells still own them. No SR :smallbiggrin:

Say, does anyone knwo of a way to be able to spontaneously cast one spell? I remember a feat called Signature Spell or something.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-23, 06:29 PM
That's not true, RP. I certainly dominated my way through the Red Hand of Doom module. I even saved the rest of my party a bunch of times.

Solo
2008-03-23, 06:32 PM
I read your sorcerer guide. As I stumbled upon it just as I was planning a chaotic good likable/friendly merchant sorcerer, the idea of using almost entirely nondamage spells was appealing to me. This is (as best as I remember) his first encounter.

Is THIS the sort of thing you mean?

Wizard the party has foiled twice before: Now, you've interfered with my plans for the last time! Prepare to die!
Sorcerer: Who are you? Can't we just talk about this?
Wizard: No! *whistles, teleports*
Wyvern: Rawr!
*everyone rolls init*
Paladin: 19
Wyvern: 1
Sorcerer: 3
Battlesorcerer: 15
Sorcerer says: Wait! I have a plan! Don't attack it yet! Don't even menace it!
Paladin waits.
Battlesorc waits.
Sorcerer Casts Rainbow Pattern. Wyvern fails will save.
Sorcerer lures dragon into middle of party via rainbow pattern.
Everyone readies actions.
Paladin full attacks.
Battlesorc uses sphere of flame
Sorcerer uses maximized ray of enfeeblement
Wyvern full attacks paladin.
Attack 6 hits for 1 damage.
Paladin full attacks wyvern.
Battlesorc uses sphere of cold.
Sorcerer uses heightened color spray. Wyvern fails will save.
Wyvern can't move.
Paladin full attacks *CRITICAL HIT*
Wyvern has died.


As you can see, I personally did no damage, but because of me neither did the enemy. I also managed to get it in range and flanked.

Good thinking. I approve.

Sir Giacomo
2008-03-23, 06:47 PM
We could invite him instead of the Druid. I mean, since Monks are so amazing that they can do 300 damage a round against equal CR enemies (as long as those enemies are Barbarian Chargers with Shocktrooper and no Karmic Strike/Robilair's Gambit who just got finished charging someone else.)

Keep at least a semblance of fairness in your posts up by keeping it core, OK?:smallamused:

- Giacomo

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-23, 06:50 PM
I'm begging you all, please, please make sure you send me a link to this.

I want to watch. It should prove epic.

Solo
2008-03-23, 06:52 PM
You're invited. Join the party and we'll have four players.

drengnikrafe
2008-03-23, 06:55 PM
I have an example of an incredible Wizard. My own, in one campaign.
My DM decided it would be funny if we faced 186 low level monsters with our 7th level characters. I prepared 3 fireballs, because my DM had warned me. Now, our fighter could take out 6 in a round, the rogue 2, the druid 3, the monk 5, and the bard 1, if he was lucky. First round, I cast sphere of invisibility, and the whole party gets to avoid a rain of arrows and magic blasts. 2nd round, I forgot I had wands of metamagic on me, so I fireball and kill a group of Kuo-Toa who were next, and were prepared to launch their lightning bolt. Saves a member from 10d6 damage. Third round, my party is getting eaten alive, everybody is approaching death, and I suddenly remember my abilities. "Hey, can I quicken, empower, expand, and maximize a spell all at once (It's a long story, and involves a lot of house rules)?" The ones that didn't die ran away, and quickly. I saved my whole party from certain TPK.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-23, 06:56 PM
That sounds wonderful. I would be honored to play with such respected giants in the playground.


What should I play? A sorcerer? Druid? Cleric?

Solo
2008-03-23, 06:58 PM
Whatever you feel like.

We will need someone to heal us, though.

JamesHowlett
2008-03-23, 07:09 PM
My curiosity is how well do they work in a campaign, which you have to admit is substantially different.


I know we all love our Wizards, but I don't think that anyone here has addressed the question.
From my experience, a Batman type wizard is pretty cool. They fit into the party really well if their player is willing to take more of a support role. Essentially, the party wizard and primary combatant have a great realtionship because Bats (at lest the ones I know) play it smart and beef up the fighter at lower levels, rather than just bombing the place. So, they end up being a very cool, very prepared bard...without the skills, the music, or being quite as charismatic.

At higher levels the Batman works like, well...batman. The DM has to find a way that isn't cheap to thwart the Wizard's divination (either by misdirection or spells... but spells are pretty lame) and then keep the game going.

It comes down to the DM. If they can be inventive enough then everybody is going to have their fair share at the table. Even the batman will fill his basic role, that of a powerful caster, in an ideal setting. I hope that kinda was the answer you were after... :smalleek:

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-23, 07:20 PM
Whatever you feel like.

We will need someone to heal us, though.

Hmm. I'd really like to build a sorcerer, but I guess I'm obliged to make a cleric. Unless there is some sort of feat that lets me heal?

Solo
2008-03-23, 07:36 PM
Play the sorcerer, I'll be the cleric.

nerulean
2008-03-23, 07:40 PM
I've seen a pseudo-batman played to excellent effect. Taking conjurer with the abrupt jaunt variant, he was able to get out of any trouble that ever came his way, just as long as his turn in initiative had come once, but he seldom, if ever, had to actually use that. With the fog spell family, starting at grease and heading on upwards, he was able to stop opponents ever getting into melee with us, allowing the party to stand at a comfortable distance and blow the bejeezus out of everything from range. His personal favourite spells for doing this were the orbs of blowing your face off.

If anything ever got past that, not that it did, he had three immediate action summons per day to place in front of rampaging irritations so we could, as previously mentioned, blow stuff up at range. He also took a couple of ray spell debilitators such as ray of clumsiness just to make really, absolutely sure that nothing could ever land a blow.

He was good. So good that I'm really glad I took Eldritch Disciple levels. If I'd played plain cleric in that game like I'd originally planned, I would not have had a lot to do at all: I think I was called upon for healing spells a grand total of four times in the entire twelve-week campaign.

So yes, batman wizard is powerful. The group was cheerfully taking down two CR 18 monsters in an encounter, largely thanks to him. Of course, this was at twelfth level (the DM refused to let us get to thirteenth level, where his caster level would have jumped by two and his metamagicked spells would have become even more ridiculous) so everything was reasonably powerful, but he was in a class of his own. And yes, there are ways to counter it, but our unsuspecting DM just didn't know what had hit her when Zyar Lord of Magicks showed up.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-23, 07:45 PM
Keep at least a semblance of fairness in your posts up by keeping it core, OK?:smallamused:

- Giacomo

Core then. Great. Getting to work right now. Whats the stat determining system?

MeklorIlavator
2008-03-23, 07:45 PM
Dang, I would like to play in a game like that. It sounds like it would be awesome. Please, post a link somewhere when it gets going.

Gorbash
2008-03-23, 07:49 PM
From my experience, you should think about spells that you could use in almost any situation and prepare those almost always, and when you know what you're up against you modify it appropriately. For example, this is my character in Red Hand of Doom campaign.

Gnome Wizard 7/Earth Dreamer 1
Spells prepared:

0 - Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Open/Close
1 - Feather Fall, Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missle, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield
2 - Detect Thoughts, Fox's Cunning, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Mirror Image
3 - Fly, Haste, Slow, Stinking Cloud
4 - Dimension Door, Enervation, Black Tentacles

Nothing to overpowered (I personally dislike the way people suggest playing multiclass characters - exploiting class abilities of at least 5 different classes with no regard whatsoever to the logic behind it), because I don't want to feel the wrath of the DM on my skin and personally, it kinda ruins the fun when you use broken spells and one-shot things.

So, the way I play my character is:
If there's a big battle coming on of which we are aware, I cast all the defensive buffs I can and open the battle with Stinking Cloud, and then see how it goes. I also have a wand of magic missles (CL 3) which I use when I'm out of spells, or don't think I need to cast them, since when you have your party hasted and the enemies blinded, nauseated, grappled, slowed, enfeebled you don't really need to do anything else. :D
And in random encounters, I usually use lower lvl spells, like glitterdust or grease and again let the hasted party do the rest. :)

At times I summon 4 phantom steeds for easy traveling, since they move 160 ft a round for 8 hours and ignore difficult terrain...

Solo
2008-03-23, 07:52 PM
Dang, I would like to play in a game like that. It sounds like it would be awesome. Please, post a link somewhere when it gets going.

Hmmm... if you'd be willing to play a Cleric, we could fit you in....


Now how about a DM?

MeklorIlavator
2008-03-23, 07:55 PM
Hmmm... if you'd be willing to play a Cleric, we could fit you in....


Now how about a DM?
How about a druid with the Vigor alternate ability? I can bring an extra tank, too.

AmberVael
2008-03-23, 07:56 PM
>.>
<.<
Well, I brought the whole subject up... I could DM, I suppose...
On the other hand, it might be better to get someone more experienced. I can manage to DM, but I don't excel (At least in my opinion, though others would tell you differently).

Bag_of_Holding
2008-03-23, 08:13 PM
I think this is a major misconception about what Batman is. Yes sometimes he finds out what he is dealing with and then comes prepared. But a large part of the concept of Batman (as Solo has impeccably demonstrated with Ozymandius) is that Wizard spells are so good, and so all purpose, and Wizards have so many of them that a Wizard just prepares.

He doesn't prepare for something. He prepares a series of spells that allow him to instantly deal with 90% of situations in a way that heavily favors him, and to buy time for the other 10% so that he or his party can deal with them after forcing favorable conditions.

Solo, I would love to play a game with your Ozymandius and my ridiculously convoluted Wizard that needs a name. All we need is a crazy powerful Cleric and Druid and Beguiler and we can set about proving all the myths (nay Legends) of caster superiority.


Ah, I stand corrected then.

Solo
2008-03-23, 08:24 PM
How about a druid with the Vigor alternate ability? I can bring an extra tank, too.

Great.



>.>
<.<
Well, I brought the whole subject up... I could DM, I suppose...
On the other hand, it might be better to get someone more experienced. I can manage to DM, but I don't excel (At least in my opinion, though others would tell you differently).

Who are you to disagree with the opinions of others?

Reel On, Love
2008-03-23, 08:28 PM
From my experience, you should think about spells that you could use in almost any situation and prepare those almost always, and when you know what you're up against you modify it appropriately. For example, this is my character in Red Hand of Doom campaign.

Gnome Wizard 7/Earth Dreamer 1
Spells prepared:

0 - Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Open/Close
1 - Feather Fall, Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missle, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield
2 - Detect Thoughts, Fox's Cunning, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Mirror Image
3 - Fly, Haste, Slow, Stinking Cloud
4 - Dimension Door, Enervation, Black Tentacles


You should have a lot more Glitterdust.
You should also have Confusion instead of Enervation. You can probably skip the DImension Door. Why do you have Fox's Cunning? Even if you don't have a Headband of Int +4, spending a standard action for +1 DCs (compared to a +2 headband) is weaksauce. Replace Cunning, Detect Thoughts, and Invisibility with more Glitterdusts. Glitterdust is made of win.

Make a couple scrolls of Greater Invisibility. Don't forget to take Overland Flight next level.

Edit: wait, I'm in this hypothetical game, yes?

AmberVael
2008-03-23, 08:47 PM
Who are you to disagree with the opinions of others?

I'm me, and I have my own opinions. :smalltongue:

^: And uh... you haven't ever stated any interest in it. Why would you be?

Reel On, Love
2008-03-23, 08:49 PM
Because I am thoroughly awesome. And play hardcore wizards.

Solo
2008-03-23, 09:03 PM
Edit: wait, I'm in this hypothetical game, yes?

You are always playing the game*


*You have just lost the game.

Frosty
2008-03-23, 09:06 PM
Fox's Cunning will give you +2 to your DCs, since it gives you a +4 to your Int.

AmberVael
2008-03-23, 09:08 PM
You are always playing the game*


*You have just lost the game.

No you didn't! Really, it's okay. (http://xkcd.com/391/)

Reel On, Love
2008-03-23, 09:34 PM
Fox's Cunning will give you +2 to your DCs, since it gives you a +4 to your Int.

He can't not have a +2 headband of intellect. He would've started the module with that.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-23, 11:15 PM
Reel On, Love

I did kind of call Wizard, though I am going more for the obsucre prepared for everything type then the one shot everything in sight type, you might fit in. But if we've got a Druid, we could use a Cleric. Or A skill monkey.

@Giamoco

"Keep at least a semblance of fairness in your posts up by keeping it core, OK?"

I was talking about things you could beat. It doesn't matter what source they come from if you can beat them you still win. I was specifically calling out something you would easily decimate.

@shadow_archmagi

Ignore him, we aren't catering an entire game to his whims, go as non-core as you like, the point is for everyone to be as powerful as possible.

@Frosty, tell me what level, I'm really busy this week but I'll try to get back to you soon as well as get this character I'm going to run up. Ask your DM if you can delay some spell choices until I get back to you. Also, I'm going to assume that you banned Necro after getting level 3 spells because it makes things easier for me (from Incantatrix of course, I've been keeping track of your threads, you are shaping up just fine by the way.)

So far for the group we have

DM-Maybe Vael
Wizard (super prepared)-Me
Sorcerer-Shadow Archmagi and/or Solo
Cleric-Solo and/or Reel On, Love
Druid (that can heal better then usual?)-MeklorIlavator
Wizard that one shots everything-Reel On, Love?
Skill Monkey-Missing, but I recommend we fill him in from one of the above players.

ECL?

Some type of PB for stats preferably.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-23, 11:26 PM
Depending on the level, I can do skill monkey as Beguiler or Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer (which play differently from normal wizards).

rockdeworld
2008-03-24, 12:21 AM
Hmm, well I'm probably not the most qualified, but on the other hand, I'd love to run a game that's purposely overpowered :smallamused:

If you'll have me, I'll make a thread in the recruiting section with all the info. It would be 36 point buy stats with whatever rules you like.

Kompera
2008-03-24, 12:22 AM
Hmm. I'd really like to build a sorcerer, but I guess I'm obliged to make a cleric. Unless there is some sort of feat that lets me heal?

Why would you need a Feat to cast spells from the Cleric (or any other) list as a Sorcerer? All it takes is some study to learn any spell you desire.


A sorcererís selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

Italicized bolds mine, for emphasis.

Solo
2008-03-24, 12:30 AM
I personally feel it makes more sense to keep the sorcerer to his own spell list, though I suppose he could develope and cast a spell similar to a divine spell with enough research... but as an arcane spell.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-24, 12:41 AM
ECL 6 to 8 is a traditional Good Mid-Level Starting Point. I'd say start from 2 or 3, but this is a PbP, so it's not like it'll ever get too far.

Solo
2008-03-24, 12:47 AM
Not unless we were Awesome enough to keep it going....

horseboy
2008-03-24, 12:57 AM
I saw it done with a rage mage. Pfft, actually I don't think he cast a single spell that whole module, He just ran around duel wielding wands of enfeeblement. Then my trip monkey and the dread commando mopped up.

rockdeworld
2008-03-24, 12:59 AM
Alright, I think you guys have posted enough game-related stuff in Vael's thread, so I'm providing this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4095844#post4095844) for you to continue in. I'll DM your game for you, unless there are any objections, and the rest of the info is in the thread.

Kompera
2008-03-24, 12:59 AM
I personally feel it makes more sense to keep the sorcerer to his own spell list [...]

I'll be sending over a squad of RAW reeducation specialists immediately. Your personal feelings are irrelevant, you will worship at the altar of RAW.

Edit: Sarcasm doesn't convey well over text. The char-op theory of D&D seems to be "If it's RAW, exploit it to the fullest." I don't play that way, because I don't think the game is playable without some RAI interpretation. But I do enjoy poking fun at it.

Chronicled
2008-03-24, 01:15 AM
Aw, I got beaten to the punch of offering to DM. Solo/Chosen/Vael/Reel, PM me if you want a second game for comparison; I'll probably test out the higher levels (12+). It'll probably be invite only with people known to be superior in the optimization ways (already mentioned 4 included).

Stycotl
2008-03-24, 01:25 AM
one of the ways that i've been able to limit the wizards' ability to own everything at any level is to incorporate tons of the rules that, though core, pretty much end up as variants, such as terrain, wind, temperature, yadda, yadda.

another is to maximize roleplay and lessen the dependence on rollplay. that tends to put all characters, yes, even the monk and fighter, on more equal footing.

but even beyond that, all of these batman-wizard theories are nice, but as stated earlier, there is almost no way to prepare for literally everything. you as the dm, can come up with plenty of ways to surprise, without even having to think too far in the extremes.

not only that, but people (the players) are fallible, and are bound to make mistakes. how many times have you finished a battle, and realized that you forgot to drink your potion of awesomeness? or forgot to spend that swift action to change stances to get the extra bonuses to (fill in blank)? i know i do it often. we cannot know everything that is going to happen. even with auguries and stuff like that, there is info you are never going to get.

that kinda mirrors real life too. even the best trained, most prepared troops can be surprised and faced with situations that they do not know how to deal with.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-24, 01:47 AM
Aw, I got beaten to the punch of offering to DM. Solo/Chosen/Vael/Reel, PM me if you want a second game for comparison; I'll probably test out the higher levels (12+). It'll probably be invite only with people known to be superior in the optimization ways (already mentioned 4 included).

I think multiple levels of play might work well, if everyone else is up for it. Especially considering the progress of play by post.

AmberVael
2008-03-24, 07:06 AM
Alright, I think you guys have posted enough game-related stuff in Vael's thread, so I'm providing this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4095844#post4095844) for you to continue in. I'll DM your game for you, unless there are any objections, and the rest of the info is in the thread.

Erm... how about the fact that I'd already offered to DM?
Would people prefer Rockdeworld?

Gorbash
2008-03-24, 08:17 AM
You should have a lot more Glitterdust.
You should also have Confusion instead of Enervation. You can probably skip the DImension Door. Why do you have Fox's Cunning? Even if you don't have a Headband of Int +4, spending a standard action for +1 DCs (compared to a +2 headband) is weaksauce. Replace Cunning, Detect Thoughts, and Invisibility with more Glitterdusts. Glitterdust is made of win.

Make a couple scrolls of Greater Invisibility. Don't forget to take Overland Flight next level.

Edit: wait, I'm in this hypothetical game, yes?

Well, I didn't try out the confusion yet (my first wizard), but there's a 20% chance it will fail every time, so I'm not so sure... Enervation is pure win on the other hand, -1 on everything (most importantly - on saves). I need dimenson door since I'm a gnome, and if I find myself in grapple - can't do much except die (a Hydra almost ate me, I won't let that happen again). And it's good for escape purposes since I can bring some people with me, too.

Like I said, I like to be prepared for everything, so I avoid preparing same spells... Detect thoughts had its uses (getting information in non violent way), sniffing out the spies etc), but for combat I prepare something else. Web, Greater Slide etc.

And people, please, make another thread for this other game of yours. This is about how to be a batman, not something else...

Chronicled
2008-03-24, 08:38 AM
Erm... how about the fact that I'd already offered to DM?
Would people prefer Rockdeworld?

You sounded kind of wishy-washy when you offered, which is why I also volunteered (and I assume that's the same reason Rockdeworld did). If you're DMing, I'd love the opportunity to join.

AmberVael
2008-03-24, 08:55 AM
You sounded kind of wishy-washy when you offered, which is why I also volunteered (and I assume that's the same reason Rockdeworld did). If you're DMing, I'd love the opportunity to join.

Well, I prefer to let people choose rather than just say "Okay, I'll do this."
And honestly, if you decided to DM I'd also like to join.

Perhaps we could make a few different games?

Chronicled
2008-03-24, 09:02 AM
Well, I prefer to let people choose rather than just say "Okay, I'll do this."
And honestly, if you decided to DM I'd also like to join.

Perhaps we could make a few different games?

Several different games, at various levels, seems to be a good idea. Keeping at least a few of the same people in each of them would also help, I think.

If enough of the optimizers here want in with me running, then I'll do it. You are of course invited, Vael.

AmberVael
2008-03-24, 09:12 AM
Several different games, at various levels, seems to be a good idea. Keeping at least a few of the same people in each of them would also help, I think.

If enough of the optimizers here want in with me running, then I'll do it. You are of course invited, Vael.

Okay! Count me in. :smallsmile:

So the current game is running at level 6. What other levels should we look at? Lower levels? 12? 18?

Chronicled
2008-03-24, 09:14 AM
Okay! Count me in. :smallsmile:

So the current game is running at level 6. What other levels should we look at? Lower levels? 12? 18?

12 and 18 sound better; being Batman is much harder at level 2.

AmberVael
2008-03-24, 09:17 AM
12 and 18 sound better; being Batman is much harder at level 2.

That was my thought, but it might be interesting to see how that would work out anyways.
However... 12 and 18.
Any preference?

Chronicled
2008-03-24, 09:18 AM
No preference here.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-24, 09:20 AM
That was my thought, but it might be interesting to see how that would work out anyways.
However... 12 and 18.
Any preference?

I vote 13 and 17 to screw over the Sorcerers MWAHAHAHHA!

But seriously, we've had three offers for DMs, then question is which level do you want to DM at?

AmberVael
2008-03-24, 09:23 AM
I vote 13 and 17 to screw over the Sorcerers MWAHAHAHHA!

But seriously, we've had three offers for DMs, then question is which level do you want to DM at?

One already chose 6. I'm debating between the other two.
Hmmmmm...
Come to think of it, I've never really been around a normal mid level campaign... I've dealt with really high level characters, and low level characters, but never between 8-14 or so.
It might be best if I went with 18.

Chronicled
2008-03-24, 09:26 AM
One already chose 6. I'm debating between the other two.
Hmmmmm...
Come to think of it, I've never really been around a normal mid level campaign... I've dealt with really high level characters, and low level characters, but never between 8-14 or so.
It might be best if I went with 18.

Sounds good. I'll have a thread up for the level 12 group later today.

rockdeworld
2008-03-24, 09:36 AM
Erm... how about the fact that I'd already offered to DM?
Would people prefer Rockdeworld?
You sounded kind of wishy-washy when you offered, which is why I also volunteered (and I assume that's the same reason Rockdeworld did). If you're DMing, I'd love the opportunity to join.
Yes, sorry about that - it sounded like you didn't want to do it, so I volunteered. Feel free to join in though :smallbiggrin:

Solo
2008-03-24, 01:31 PM
Could we not have a low level game, then switch to another DM for a higher level game and so on? We'd spread out the enjoyment and not have to have so much book keeping. (Playing three wizards at the same time? Yikes!)

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-24, 02:02 PM
Could we not have a low level game, then switch to another DM for a higher level game and so on? We'd spread out the enjoyment and not have to have so much book keeping. (Playing three wizards at the same time? Yikes!)

Hey, you are playing 3 Sorcerers, you don't get to complain. I'm all for all three games at once. By the time the level 6 game reaches level 12 3 years from now we'll probably have forgotten who was supposed to DM.

EDIT: Also, we have three possible DMs, only one of which might be playing. Then we have 5 players who aren't DMing. So that's 8 people total who want in one way or another. 3 DMs doing groups of Five is a little better then 1 person DMing seven.

Frosty
2008-03-24, 02:59 PM
I vote for a level 6 game, a level 15 game, and a level 20 game.