PDA

View Full Version : Chasing down Roadrunner



Nero24200
2008-03-24, 07:24 AM
Hello all

Some of you might remeber a post similier to this one a while back.
you see, I have this friend, who insists that monks are overpowered. Specificly, he thinks the speed bonus are too much.

I disagree, I think that the speed bonus's are one of the few things a monk has that no other class has, and so should stay. I then explained that "high speed or no, he'll still lose in a fight easily". So we agreed on a little contest.

Now, a while back I asked about this, the plan was to create 4 characters (archtypical D'n'D party, fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard) and beat him individually with each character. Now, he lost agaisnt the cleric and wizard easily. The rogue he refuses to fight, saying it's a support character, so that leaves fighter.

I'm desigining a new fighter from scratch, and I need advice, since I've never played one before. It will be a 20th level one, no multiclassing, and we're both to be humans (it -is- a battle of classes, no races, after all). What feats, items etc would be handy for taking down this monk, specificlly, for catching him, as I can see his main strategy involving speed.

Now, I know some of you might say "He'll lose anyway, you won't need advice", but you see, I don't want to just win. I want to leave NO DOUBT that even with his fast movement, a well-done fighter can eat his character for breakfast.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-24, 07:33 AM
What feats, items etc would be handy for taking down this monk, specificlly, for catching him, as I can see his main strategy involving speed.

Anything involving archery.

Greyen
2008-03-24, 07:34 AM
Reach weapon, the feat Stand Still from XPH, he shouldn't be able to move.

Xyk
2008-03-24, 07:52 AM
Maybe trip him.

Tengu
2008-03-24, 07:57 AM
Tripping reach weapons and archery!

Am I the only one who thinks he refuses to fight the rogue because he's afraid of stealth and sneak attacks? Which alone (if it's the case) shows how little he knows, as the handful of dice you throw with a sneak attack might look impressive but is actually much weaker than what frontline melee types can pull off in terms of damage.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-24, 08:05 AM
Am I the only one who thinks he refuses to fight the rogue because he's afraid of stealth and sneak attacks? Which alone (if it's the case) shows how little he knows, as the handful of dice you throw with a sneak attack might look impressive but is actually much weaker than what frontline melee types can pull off in terms of damage.

That, and sneak attacking is useless in a duel. You get to use it if you can turn invisible and the opponent can't see you, or during the first round if you win iniatiative and can attack.

Archery kinda falls on Deflect Arrows; your highest bonus attack is going to get swatted down. (And why would the monk be running away from you anyway? If he wants to hit and run, he's SOL because 90-ft. speed isn't enough to Spring Attack and get out of charge range each round.)

Stand Still and reach weapons are pretty much negated by Tumble - Monks don't provoke AoOs by moving.

Odds are pretty slim the monk is going to be able to stand up to any Fighter in melee, and that's where monks fight. Just make sure you've got a good Fort save, or a lucky Quivering Palm (expect DC 30 at 20th level) can do you in. So you want a maxed-out Con and a cloak of resistance +5.

Nero24200
2008-03-24, 08:09 AM
Am I the only one who thinks he refuses to fight the rogue because he's afraid of stealth and sneak attacks? Which alone (if it's the case) shows how little he knows, as the handful of dice you throw with a sneak attack might look impressive but is actually much weaker than what frontline melee types can pull off in terms of damage.

Thats probably Ture, he's seen me play a rogue before, he knows I could take his monk on easy with one if I got the chance.

As for the defelct arrows, the player I'm up against tends to worry a little, I'll only need one or two good shots before he tries somthing stupid, such as melee, in which case it'll be all over

Telok
2008-03-24, 08:09 AM
Boots of Speed are a decent option for this. Haste for 10 rounds a day chosen as a free action every turn. This will give you +1 AC/attack/reflex, one extra attack on a full attack, and +30' speed. If you keep to light armor this alone will give you a 60' base move. The move bonus is an enhancement bonus.

Taking the general feat Wild Talent (XPH or SRD) will net you two psionic power points and allow you to take the psionic feat Speed of Thought. This gives you another +10' insight bonus to speed, as long as you don't wear heavy armor.

Dash feat (Complete Warrior) +5' movement.

Remember that the monk speed bonus is an enhancement bonus that will not stack with other enhancement bonuses. This is important because most movement bonuses are enhancement bonuses.

For evil fun use a Cube of Force set to keep out all living matter. It won't last forever but you can use archery from inside it and if the monk used his Dimension Door to get inside he's trapped right next to you. Personally I'd concentrate on maximum AC, defeating grapple, and negating a Spring Attack build.

As an interesting last thought an archery build, a carpet of flying, and Ranged Sunder could be an interesting combo for this. Get high enough, waste his D-door, and sunder his flying magic item, arrow him to death.

KillianHawkeye
2008-03-24, 08:19 AM
That, and sneak attacking is useless in a duel. You get to use it if you can turn invisible and the opponent can't see you, or during the first round if you win iniatiative and can attack.

Or the rogue could use a feint maneuver to catch his opponent flat-footed. There are also some feats and skill tricks to create opportunities for Sneak Attack. I'm just saying....

As for the fighter, get Boots of Striding & Springing to double your move speed. Wear magical light armor and you can get the Dash feat. I think that works out to a 70 foot move speed. Not such a big advantage for the monk anymore. Even better, the same boots don't work as well for the monk since they only double the monk's nonmagical speed (50 feet doubled up to 100 feet.) :smallwink:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-24, 08:20 AM
What's with the focus on speed? Is there actually some way for the monk to capitalize on the speed in combat that I'm not seeing? As far as I can tell, he's going to have to get into melee, and he will get flattened there. I mean, I guess he could keep moving away and throwing shurikens, but that's not a very sustainable tactic.

Chronicled
2008-03-24, 08:48 AM
As for the fighter, get Boots of Striding & Springing to double your move speed. Wear magical light armor and you can get the Dash feat. I think that works out to a 70 foot move speed. Not such a big advantage for the monk anymore. Even better, the same boots don't work as well for the monk since they only double the monk's nonmagical speed (50 feet doubled up to 100 feet.) :smallwink:

This is incorrect. Boots of Striding & Springing give +10 enhancement bonus to speed, they don't double it. Dash is a poor choice for a feat.

I would go the Spiked Chain route. If the monk tumbles in, he's going to be close enough for you to tear up on your turn. As mentioned, boost your fort save out the whazoo; not only is Quivering Palm a possible auto-win, but getting stunned will make you drop your weapon (Quickdraw+backup isn't a bad choice if you have the room). To further cover all your bases, you could nab Improved Grapple.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-24, 09:02 AM
That, and sneak attacking is useless in a duel. You get to use it if you can turn invisible and the opponent can't see you, or during the first round if you win iniatiative and can attack.
Nonsense. You can, for starters, make a build that synergizes with sneak attack (such as, say, by having a character that can -gasp- turn himself invisible!)



Archery kinda falls on Deflect Arrows; your highest bonus attack is going to get swatted down.
Rapid Shot. Many Shot. Splitting arrows. Any questions?



(And why would the monk be running away from you anyway?
Because that's the most reliable strategy the class has.

Signmaker
2008-03-24, 09:09 AM
Nonsense. You can, for starters, make a build that synergizes with sneak attack (such as, say, by having a character that can -gasp- turn himself invisible!)




Agreed. An Invisible Blade/Master Thrower combo not only lets you Sneak Attack from just about anywhere, but also at any time, and often multiple times in a single round.

As far as I can see, the only major threat the monk has (in terms of oh crap, you're screwed) is running up to you and quivering palming. So long as you can make the save for quivering palm, through magic resistance items and whatnot, your superior HD, BAB, and weapon damage should win the game.

Chronicled
2008-03-24, 09:13 AM
Another way to avoid Quivering Palm is to have an untouchable AC. QP and SF have to be declared before use.

+5 Full Plate, +5 Animated Heavy Shield, Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +5, have Defending on your weapon... yeah, this method might work.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-24, 09:14 AM
As far as I can see, the only major threat the monk has (in terms of oh crap, you're screwed) is running up to you and quivering palming.

Which, incidentally, you can avoid by using a few of your magical items to become incorporeal or immune to critical hits.

What kind of a stupid ability is QP anyway, with its lame pseudo-scientific "vibrations"?

Chronicled
2008-03-24, 09:16 AM
Which, incidentally, you can avoid by using a few of your magical items to become incorporeal or immune to critical hits.

Argh, forgot that QP and SF relied on being able to crit. Yeah, you're safe then. Just get Heavy Fortification armor, and laugh at the monk's attempts to drop you.

Signmaker
2008-03-24, 09:18 AM
Which, incidentally, you can avoid by using a few of your magical items to become incorporeal or immune to critical hits.

What kind of a stupid ability is QP anyway, with its lame pseudo-scientific "vibrations"?

Good call, didn't notice how easy it was for 20th level to simply not care.

So wait, why are we having this conversation then?

I suggest a Monty Python-esque walkoff.

SoD
2008-03-24, 09:37 AM
Hmm, take something with reach, and combat reflexes. To even reach you, he gets attacked.

Dethcom1
2008-03-24, 10:04 AM
Quivering Palm isn't much of a threat considering the spirit of the contest. t is a 1/week ability that has nothing to do with speed. Although, if your friend is that desperate to win, he might argue that it counts. Hmm...

Is Quivering Palm a death effect? If so, the Vow of Purity gives a +4 bonus against it, or the Greater Stamina armor property gives +5 for all Fort checks.

Taking the Bane Blind property allows you to become completely invisible to him, until you can sunder his maneuverability items. A Greater Armor Crystal of Glancing Blows gives you +10 to stop a grapple from being initiated, for a very low price.

This entire situation seems a little elaborate to me. Does this guy really believe that the speed bonus matters all that much?

Signmaker
2008-03-24, 10:06 AM
Quivering Palm isn't much of a threat considering the spirit of the contest. t is a 1/week ability that has nothing to do with speed. Although, if your friend is that desperate to win, he might argue that it counts. Hmm...

Is Quivering Palm a death effect? If so, the Vow of Purity gives a +4 bonus against it, or the Greater Stamina armor property gives +5 for all Fort checks.

Taking the Bane Blind property allows you to become completely invisible to him, until you can sunder his maneuverability items. A Greater Armor Crystal of Glancing Blows gives you +10 to stop a grapple from being initiated, for a very low price.

This entire situation seems a little elaborate to me. Does this guy really believe that the speed bonus matters all that much?

Trigger avalanche.

What?

FinalJustice
2008-03-24, 10:13 AM
Close Quarters Combat (CWar) may prove itself useful. Take an Opportunity every time he tries to grapple you, plus, you add the damage to the roll. Robilar's Gambit (PHBII) is also a must. Getting attacked every times he attacks you renders his hit and run tactics pretty much useless, since he probably won't be able to outdamage you nor outlast you. Plus, with the spiked chain route, every AoO is a chance for a trip, and a trip may lead to a prone monk in full attack range, AKA dead meat.

Calle
2008-03-24, 10:28 AM
Should'nt be that hard, to get a monk down as a fighter.

Get your AC up (everytime a good pick ;) ).
An AC of 45+ and touchAC of 40+ (not that he gets you flat-footed or grapples you) should be possible.
Natural armor: +5; Bracers of Armor: +8; +5 Full Plate: +13; +5 Tower Shield (Heavy Fortification): +9 = AC 45;
With the Shield you already have you immunity to criticals and with this AC he needs rolls in the upper regions to hit you anyway.

As Feats i would suggest:
Quick Draw; Point Blank Shot; Rapid Shot; Far Shot; Manyshot; Wild Talent; Heavy Armor Profiency (RoS); Deflective Armor (RoS); Parrying Shield(LoM); Improved Rapid Shot(CW);
And even then you have 8 Feats open to select.

Now he has nearly no chance to hit you. You, on the other hand, can hit him with 20 Arrows per Round or, if he's in melee, with your axe, sword, whatever.

I think, thats enough to show this monk what a fighter can do. And you don't even need to walk...

sikyon
2008-03-24, 10:36 AM
Use WBL like crazy. In the end, it basically comes down to who has the better magic items.

I suggest pulling out wings of flying on him, and he's done. Helm of teleportation when he get's farther away. Pack a bunch of greater slaying arrows. DC23 or instant death... he'll die quickly enough.

Lord Tataraus
2008-03-24, 10:49 AM
Personally, I'd make a build built to stand in one place just to show him that speed is meaningless. I'd go dwarf with +5 Hammerblock Dwarven Mountain Plate Armor (you will be blinking and have amazing AC so no need to worry about QP). Then take a four +5 Returning Distance Merciful Anarchic Spear or Javelin with the Brutal Throw and Power Throw feats. Get a Ring of Blinking and Protection +5 and possibly a cloak of resistance.

My tactic would then be to stand in the center of the area, blinking, and chucking spears with full attacks. The spears have a 40ft range increment, far shot makes it 80ft, that's enough to take down the monk. Plus, if he decides to melee you, spears are polearms that can be set against a charge and are effective at melee.

WBL 20th: 760,000gp
+5 Hammerblock Dwarven Mountain Plate = 39,250gp
+5 Returning Distance Merciful Spear = 128,000gp x4 = 512,000gp
Ring of Blinking = 27,000gp
Ring of Protection +5 = 50,000gp
Belt of Giant Strength = 36,000gp
Cloak of Resistance +5 = 25,000gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 = 50,000gp
Boots of Stability (Just for fun, DR314) = 9,850gp
Total = 749100gp (739,250gp w/o Boots)
Extra Funds: 10,900gp (20,750gp w/o Boots)

DrizztFan24
2008-03-24, 11:02 AM
Marbles to cause the monk to become flat-footed? or does the monk have something to negate this? Since he can't really wear armor he will lose alot of his bonuses to AC.

Chronos
2008-03-24, 11:06 AM
Y'know, the OP never actually specified what books are allowed. So I'm going to assume that it's just core. That way, the monk can't even complain that he lost due to splatbook creep.

The monk has two strategies available to him: Spring Attack, or shuriken. If he uses Spring Attack, you can ready an action to trip him (in addition to the Attack of Opportunity you might get, if he doesn't tumble, and if he does, he uses up more movement), or you can charge him. Although the monk can get higher speed than the fighter, he can't get so much higher that he can always get out of range. Even without any movement-boosting items, you can charge 60 feet. So if he wanted to be safe from charges with his Spring Attacking, he'd have to both start and end 65 feet away from you, which means he'd need a movement speed of 130 (or more, to account for tumbling). Nor can he try to trip you, since he doesn't have any actions left to ready one, and he can't get reach.

If he tries to fight at range, he again has two options: He can use full attacks, or he can do hit-and-run. If he tries to use full attacks with shuriken, he has to be within 50 feet of you (the maximum range for shuriken, which will also send his to-hit into the toilet), so he'll end at a maximum of 55 feet away (after his five-foot-step), which is again in charging range. Alternately, he could use single attacks with shuriken or sling, using Shot on the Run to stay as far away as he can. In this case, you want to get out your trusty composite longbow and attack him with that. Yeah, he'll probably deflect your highest iterative attack, but your second-highest iterative is as good as his highest, you've got a lot less of a range penalty, you're making full attacks to his single attacks, the bow has higher damage than the sling, and you have more hit points. You'll easily outlast him. To add insult to injury, you take a five-foot step away from him after your shots, so he has to use more of his move getting into range, and has less left for getting out of range.

So the sum total of necessary equipment for you is a chain shirt (or mithral breastplate, but no need to get fancy) of heavy fortification, a spiked chain +1, and a composite longbow +1 with a whole bunch of arrows. You could throw in some speedy boots, but I think that would dilute the point: You're trying to prove that speed isn't such a big deal. The sum total of necessary feats are Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Improved Trip, and Quick Draw (to switch between the chain and bow easily). With just this much, he doesn't really stand a chance. Anything else you add is just more nails in the coffin.

Oh, and Calle, your equipment loadout is an AC of 37 and a touch AC of 10. Bracers of Armor don't stack with armor, since they both give the same kind of bonus, and neither armor, nor shield, nor natural armor bonuses add to touch AC (though they do all add to flat-footed AC).

Roderick_BR
2008-03-24, 11:31 AM
Stand Still and reach weapons are pretty much negated by Tumble - Monks don't provoke AoOs by moving.
Just use a ready action to attack when the monk gets into reach. You can stand losing an aciton for it.

Jerthanis
2008-03-24, 12:26 PM
You could have him face a Bard with high ranks in Craft: Landscape Painting... at the end of a road, the Bard paints a landscape into the rock, hoping that at high speeds, the monk won't see the difference until he smacks himself silly running full-tilt towards it.

However, if the Monk simply continues running into the painting, remember not to have the Bard try to follow him.

Alternatively: One part fighter, one part greatsword, two parts hands on a greatsword, enough armor to make the Monk whiff 75% of the time, serve neat. It won't prove anything about the Monk's speed not being good... but it will mean that when the Monk gets where he's going he will not be able to do anything... but a reach weapon and Stand Still will be a much better option even then.

Fixer
2008-03-24, 12:39 PM
Fighter 20
1: Weapon Focus: Spiked Gauntlets, Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow, Improved Unarmed Strike
2: Improved Grapple
3: Point Blank Shot
4: Weapon Specialization: Spiked Gauntlets
6: Weapon Specialization: Composite Longbow, Precise Shot
8: Greater Weapon Focus: Spiked Gauntlets
9: Greater Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow
10: Greater Weapon Specialization: Spiked Gauntlets
12: Greater Weapon Specialization: Composite Longbow, Improved Precise Shot
14: Deflect Arrows
15: Snatch Arrows
16: Improved Critical: Spiked Gauntlets
18: Improved Critical: Composite Longbow, Quick Draw
20: Improved Initiative (or anything, really)

Gear:
Spiked (+5 enchanted) Adamantine Full Plate +5 of Spell Resistance (19) and Etherealness
Buckler +5 of Heavy Fortification
Anarchic Mighty (+7 Str) Composite Longbow +5 of Speed
Belt of Giant Strength +6
Gauntlets of Dexterity +6
Potion of Barkskin +5
Potion of Shield of Faith +5

Note: This assumes you have a +4 Str bonus before the magic belt, if higher, get a mightier bow)

Tactics: Drink both potions at the start of the fight.
If the monk is remaining at range, pepper him with arrows until he decides that is a bad idea. Your attacks will be at +30 (+normal dex bonus). You could go higher with more magic items but that's your call.
If the monk decides that going into melee is better, grapple him and squeeze him until it hurts. You have a +31 grapple check (maybe higher), which even a monk will have a hard time beating. He might get more attacks than you but that will only kill him faster as EACH TIME you succeed in a grapple check, your armor will deal 1d6+9 damage to him (+4 from specialization, +5 enchanted), even on his attacks.

Greater Fortification on the armor makes you immune to his quivering palm (immune to criticals). He will never be able to attack you AND get out of range of your bow shots. If he picks up a magic item that might do something outside of the class abilities, the spell resistance on the armor should help.

Fixer
2008-03-24, 12:41 PM
I don't recall off-hand if the armor's spikes are called "Spiked Gauntlets" or "Armor Spikes" but that's the Weapon Focus/Specializations he'd be taking.

Calle
2008-03-24, 12:44 PM
Oh, and Calle, your equipment loadout is an AC of 37 and a touch AC of 10. Bracers of Armor don't stack with armor, since they both give the same kind of bonus, and neither armor, nor shield, nor natural armor bonuses add to touch AC (though they do all add to flat-footed AC).

OK, i forgot that Bracers of Armor don't stack with normal Armor, but the touch AC comes from the Feats.


Parrying Shield(LoM) adds the ShieldBonus from your Shield to your AC and Defelctive Armor (RoS) adds the ArmorBonus to your AC.

PS: As a side note: The Magic Item Compendium say Bracers of Armor are enhancment Bonus, the DMG says its an armor bonus.

Squash Monster
2008-03-24, 12:51 PM
Just play as a standard machine-gun archer.

Take a Wood Elf Fighter and get Improved Rapid Shot, and a composite bow with the Splitting enchantment. Then grab all the weapon specialization and focus related feats to fill the rest up.

Once you've done that, keep five-foot stepping away and unloading full attacks. It doesn't really matter what he does in the face of ten arrows per round.

Haste item is good too, if you like.

Chronicled
2008-03-24, 03:34 PM
Fighter 20
1: Weapon Focus: Spiked Gauntlets, Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow, Improved Unarmed Strike
2: Improved Grapple
3: Point Blank Shot
4: Weapon Specialization: Spiked Gauntlets
6: Weapon Specialization: Composite Longbow, Precise Shot
8: Greater Weapon Focus: Spiked Gauntlets
9: Greater Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow
10: Greater Weapon Specialization: Spiked Gauntlets
12: Greater Weapon Specialization: Composite Longbow, Improved Precise Shot
14: Deflect Arrows
15: Snatch Arrows
16: Improved Critical: Spiked Gauntlets
18: Improved Critical: Composite Longbow, Quick Draw
20: Improved Initiative (or anything, really)

Gear:
Spiked (+5 enchanted) Adamantine Full Plate +5 of Spell Resistance (19) and Etherealness
Buckler +5 of Heavy Fortification
Anarchic Mighty (+7 Str) Composite Longbow +5 of Speed
Belt of Giant Strength +6
Gauntlets of Dexterity +6
Potion of Barkskin +5
Potion of Shield of Faith +5

Note: This assumes you have a +4 Str bonus before the magic belt, if higher, get a mightier bow)

Tactics: Drink both potions at the start of the fight.
If the monk is remaining at range, pepper him with arrows until he decides that is a bad idea. Your attacks will be at +30 (+normal dex bonus). You could go higher with more magic items but that's your call.
If the monk decides that going into melee is better, grapple him and squeeze him until it hurts. You have a +31 grapple check (maybe higher), which even a monk will have a hard time beating. He might get more attacks than you but that will only kill him faster as EACH TIME you succeed in a grapple check, your armor will deal 1d6+9 damage to him (+4 from specialization, +5 enchanted), even on his attacks.

Greater Fortification on the armor makes you immune to his quivering palm (immune to criticals). He will never be able to attack you AND get out of range of your bow shots. If he picks up a magic item that might do something outside of the class abilities, the spell resistance on the armor should help.

The best part about this is that you're punching a monk to death.